My 2001 Es300 And Arbitration

[nicksan]

Hi all,

I haven't been on these boards in a while. I had posted many posts about my 2001 ES300 CPO with a bunch of problems, the last one being tha battery going out on me after 3 new ones installed. The dealer in question is:

LEXUS OF MASSAPEQUA...never, and I mean NEVER, do business with them!!!

Well, I filed for NY State lemon law arbitration, and I just had my hearing yesterday. Although I listed the eletrical problems as being the root of my lemon law complaint, here is a summary of what went wrong with the car.

-Dead battery 3 times

-Bad battery terminal (only discovered on my last visit)

-Alignment was waaaay off (only discovered on my last visit)

-The rectangle arounf the "D" indicator in the dash was out.

-Heated seats not working properly

-Left wiper fluid doesn't come out

-Rubber around sunroof rotting away

-Crack in the passenger side window

-Brake pads were heavily "glazed".(only discovered on my last visit)

-All kinds of rattles in the car.

-Clock was broken

-Ashtray was defective

-Discovered body work was done and the paint didn't match

That's what I can think of. BTW, the ones that say "only discovered on my last visit", that was because I threatened them that I would speak to my attorney. Then I got phone call from them and they were kissing my behind.

Quite a Certified Pre-Owned program they have over there right? LOL!

Anyways, I wen to the hearing alone, Lex of Mass brought an attorney...and this one was a doozy!

Before the hearing started the arbitrator gave us a chance to settle. So I spent about an hour with Lex Mass and their attorney. The following is the "deal" they offered:

(FYI, I purchased my 2001 ES300 w/22k miles, Chrome Wheels, CPO for $24k)

They woudl buy back my ES for $17k. Then they would offer a 2004 ES330 "Track" car with 15k miles on it for $27k. "Track" is just a word they use for loaner cars. Needless to say I wasn't impressed with the fact that I'd be hit with a $7000 depriciation for the trade in, and having to shell out an additional $10k for the 2004.

Then I asked them the only way I see it is if I can swap out my 2001 for another 2001. The best they could do is a one that had 15k more miles on it. But he told me I would still have to shell out $1k - $2k for the swap. I said that is crazy...they are getting a lower mileage car and I still have to pay?

I guess they didn't lookup the word "Settlement"...

In any event here he was, the attorney, telling me "Listen, I'm trying to be an advocate here. I'll be honest with you. I have all the paperwork on your case right here in this folder. I looked at all the facts and you know what? You don't have much of a case here. You will lose. That's why we are here because we are confident that we will win. Otherwise we would have called you to reach a settlement beforehand".

I'm thinking..."hey...this guy is threatening me or softening me up for the kill".

I told him no thanks. So we had the hearing.

He was a by-the-book attorney...very typical, no imagination. He went as far as trying to accuse me of running out the battery on purpose to get my money back. He was quickly scolded by the arbitrator. But man, here I am, a total amateur, against a professional attorney. I had no chance. I tried my best. My best chance was to try to find find holes because this idiot was talking too much and I thought he's bound to say something totally inaccurate in which I can build my case one.

1) He kept on saying "The batter is not covered under the lemon law"...and I always corrected him "Sir, I never said the battery was the problem, the problem was the electrical system"

2) I asked his "expert witness" who happens to be the service manager, if the fact that my car has so many problems, yet it passed the CPO program, it that was typical? He said no, it seems to be an expection. (Isn't that an admission?)

3) I asked them about why the bad cable wasn't detected back in Jan 05, even though they claimed to have done an "exaustive" test of the electrical system. No comment on that one.

4) Brakes were heavily glazed....geee did that happen between Jan and Mar because I could have swore I complained about the brakes.

5) Tires were heavily mis-aligned...same as 4)...In fact I've been complaining about that since I bought the F'ing thing.

6) "Sir, so are you saying that if I purchased any car out there, a Nissan, an Acura, Honda, Chevy...that if I didn't drive it hundreds or a thousand miles per month, that the battery would die in 2 to 3 months?" He was like "Well it depends on the design on the vehicle"...then his attorney immediately steps in to blabber on about how battery works...

So that was my case...trying to find holes in the attorney's case. Oh well, I tried my best to hang with the professional. That's all I can do...and hope for the best.

Well, I will probably end up ridding myself of the ES one way or the other. Obviously it'd be best if Lex Mass can buy it back from me for $24k. But whatever...

Maybe it just wasn't in the cards. Maybe in the future I'd get myself another Lex.

See how everything goes...

[KWV]

Hi all,

I haven't been on these boards in a while. I had posted many posts about my 2001 ES300 CPO with a bunch of problems, the last one being tha battery going out on me after 3 new ones installed. The dealer in question is:

LEXUS OF MASSAPEQUA...never, and I mean NEVER, do business with them!!!

Well, I filed for NY State lemon law arbitration, and I just had my hearing yesterday. Although I listed the eletrical problems as being the root of my lemon law complaint, here is a summary of what went wrong with the car.

-Dead battery 3 times

-Bad battery terminal (only discovered on my last visit)

-Alignment was waaaay off (only discovered on my last visit)

-The rectangle arounf the "D" indicator in the dash was out.

-Heated seats not working properly

-Left wiper fluid doesn't come out

-Rubber around sunroof rotting away

-Crack in the passenger side window

-Brake pads were heavily "glazed".(only discovered on my last visit)

-All kinds of rattles in the car.

-Clock was broken

-Ashtray was defective

-Discovered body work was done and the paint didn't match

That's what I can think of. BTW, the ones that say "only discovered on my last visit", that was because I threatened them that I would speak to my attorney. Then I got phone call from them and they were kissing my behind.

Quite a Certified Pre-Owned program they have over there right? LOL!

Anyways, I wen to the hearing alone, Lex of Mass brought an attorney...and this one was a doozy!

Before the hearing started the arbitrator gave us a chance to settle. So I spent about an hour with Lex Mass and their attorney. The following is the "deal" they offered:

(FYI, I purchased my 2001 ES300 w/22k miles, Chrome Wheels, CPO for $24k)

They woudl buy back my ES for $17k. Then they would offer a 2004 ES330 "Track" car with 15k miles on it for $27k. "Track" is just a word they use for loaner cars. Needless to say I wasn't impressed with the fact that I'd be hit with a $7000 depriciation for the trade in, and having to shell out an additional $10k for the 2004.

Then I asked them the only way I see it is if I can swap out my 2001 for another 2001. The best they could do is a one that had 15k more miles on it. But he told me I would still have to shell out $1k - $2k for the swap. I said that is crazy...they are getting a lower mileage car and I still have to pay?

I guess they didn't lookup the word "Settlement"...

In any event here he was, the attorney, telling me "Listen, I'm trying to be an advocate here. I'll be honest with you. I have all the paperwork on your case right here in this folder. I looked at all the facts and you know what? You don't have much of a case here. You will lose. That's why we are here because we are confident that we will win. Otherwise we would have called you to reach a settlement beforehand".

I'm thinking..."hey...this guy is threatening me or softening me up for the kill".

I told him no thanks. So we had the hearing.

He was a by-the-book attorney...very typical, no imagination. He went as far as trying to accuse me of running out the battery on purpose to get my money back. He was quickly scolded by the arbitrator. But man, here I am, a total amateur, against a professional attorney. I had no chance. I tried my best. My best chance was to try to find find holes because this idiot was talking too much and I thought he's bound to say something totally inaccurate in which I can build my case one.

1) He kept on saying "The batter is not covered under the lemon law"...and I always corrected him "Sir, I never said the battery was the problem, the problem was the electrical system"

2) I asked his "expert witness" who happens to be the service manager, if the fact that my car has so many problems, yet it passed the CPO program, it that was typical? He said no, it seems to be an expection. (Isn't that an admission?)

3) I asked them about why the bad cable wasn't detected back in Jan 05, even though they claimed to have done an "exaustive" test of the electrical system. No comment on that one.

4) Brakes were heavily glazed....geee did that happen between Jan and Mar because I could have swore I complained about the brakes.

5) Tires were heavily mis-aligned...same as 4)...In fact I've been complaining about that since I bought the F'ing thing.

6) "Sir, so are you saying that if I purchased any car out there, a Nissan, an Acura, Honda, Chevy...that if I didn't drive it hundreds or a thousand miles per month, that the battery would die in 2 to 3 months?" He was like "Well it depends on the design on the vehicle"...then his attorney immediately steps in to blabber on about how battery works...

So that was my case...trying to find holes in the attorney's case. Oh well, I tried my best to hang with the professional. That's all I can do...and hope for the best.

Well, I will probably end up ridding myself of the ES one way or the other. Obviously it'd be best if Lex Mass can buy it back from me for $24k. But whatever...

Maybe it just wasn't in the cards. Maybe in the future I'd get myself another Lex.

See how everything goes...

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[SKperformance]

I commend you on your effort , what did headoffice have to say about the problem.

[nicksan]

I commend you on your effort , what did headoffice have to say about the problem.

←

If by Headoffice you mean Lexus HQ, and not Lex of Mass, then are pretty much of the opinion that it's out of their hands and that cases such as mine have be dealt with with dealership.

Rest assured, that I have let them know about the going ons at Lexus of Mass...though I'm very sure that absolutely nothing will result from it.

So I had to take matters into my own hands.

The first step was calling Lex of Mass Customer Satisfaction Manager. I left him a message telling him I will have to speak to my attorney should all this continue. The very next morning, I get a call from the service rep, pretty much kissing my behind. When I brought my car in (this was back in March) they were all nice to me...then I saw that they had address most of my complaints.

It's rather strange that the mere mention of an attorney gets these lazy as*es to actually do some work. And this is the unfortunate truth that I think I have uncovered, at this at this dealership. They typically do not do jack...you can ask them to check this, check that, do this, do that...and they will tell you "We could reproduce the problem". It is clear to me that this is all a huge pile of B.S...of course they cannot reproduce because they are sitting around eating donuts all day long.

Hey, did they even change my oil? How do I know they did? Sh*t man...you just can't trust anybody these days.

It's a sad sight man. It's not Lexus's fault...it is the fault of all the individuals who work at Lexus of Massapequa. From the Pre-owned sales person jack as* who threatened me, to the service crew, the their dirty attorney, to their clueless service manager.

I will never go there again, nor would I ever recommend them.

People, PLEASE AVOID LEXUS OF MASSAPEQUA.

Bunch of doofs...they also made my wife feel terrible about the whole thing...so I was ready to take names and kick some butt.

So even though I faced a "pro" attorney (i.e..huge A-hole...sorry if any of you are attorneys!) I tried my best.

Yeah, Lexus of Mass...pick on the consumer...there I was by myself, and Lex of Mass felt the need to bring in "Big Dawg"!!!

[ImranS]

No good dealerships!!!!!

Although I'm happy with mine :)

Good effort though, and good you didn't take them up on their pathetic offer, it would have been a big mistake.

[Lexusfreak]

You had all these problems & it was suppose to be a Lexus CPO vehicle? WOW! :(

[SKperformance]

I back you 100% not like that will do you anything.

It is unacceptable to have any Lexus dealer to not jump when their is a problem with any vehicle they sell in such a short time.

It is good to know that that is not the par for Lexus dealers as most are more than on the ball with these situations.

It really is unfortunate that they are so behind and lacking in their responses .

This is what this forum is about, owners learning about their cars and sharing expericanes in repairs, modifications and dealers.

I hope more than a few people veiw this and recognize the crap the "this" dealer is feeding customers.

[nicksan]

I back you 100% not like that will do you anything.

It is unacceptable to have any Lexus dealer to not jump when their is a problem with any vehicle they sell in such a short time.

It is good to know that that is not the par for Lexus dealers as most are more than on the ball with these situations.

It really is unfortunate that they are so behind and lacking in their responses .

This is what this forum is about, owners learning about their cars and sharing expericanes in repairs, modifications and dealers.

I hope more than a few people veiw this and recognize the crap the "this" dealer is feeding customers.

←

Thanks.

I think problems such as these might be more rampant here in NY than in other parts of the country. Car dealers are such hit-or-miss...there are so many dishonest businesses out there, you start to question the value system you know?

I'm just waiting for the arbitration verdict.

Either way, I'm happy that I gave it my best shot, and if I lose, I still have the ES to drive around....I guess...if I don't end up selling it. Depends on how much I can get for it.

Maybe I'll put in one of those tough Optima batteries for people who do low mileage...

[Parks2678]

Found my answer - removed my post

[Parks2678]

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I'm just waiting for the arbitration verdict.

←

Please make sure you let us know how it turns out. When do you think you will hear something?

[SW03ES]

Never go into court without a lawyer unless its something like a traffic ticket, a minor traffic ticket. If you had a lawyer that could have intimidated the other lawyer I think you'd have been in a much stronger position. As it was now you might have well been naked in the court room. Especially since you're being so reasonable, willing to take the same year car with higher mileage on an even trade, I wouldnt be surprised if you won.

[Geo]

Nick: Good luck. Sorry to here about your experience. I bought a CPO 01, ES300 from Lexus of Roseville. I have had it just about a year and a half now and it has been the best car ever. The Lexus folks here in Sacramento, CA are so very professional. HQ should be made aware of everthing that went on, they do not want their name brought down by some dirt bag dealer. George

[nicksan]

Never go into court without a lawyer unless its something like a traffic ticket, a minor traffic ticket. If you had a lawyer that could have intimidated the other lawyer I think you'd have been in a much stronger position. As it was now you might have well been naked in the court room. Especially since you're being so reasonable, willing to take the same year car with higher mileage on an even trade, I wouldnt be surprised if you won.

←

I guess arbitration is similar to court, except it is much less formal. Bringing a lawyer wasn't a requirement and I was under the impression that individuals do just fine without one in an arbitration setting, partially because I think the arbitrator tries to do his/her best to really just look at the facts (which he already has...copies of service records, etc.) and decide on a verdict.

Obviously a lawyer can have an impact on the case, reciting specific lemon laws etc...but you'd have to assume that the arbitrator would already be aware of all that.

It's not you are in front of a judge that handles all sorts of cases. This was a Lemon Law arbitration...so the arbitrator has done this a lot of times.

So, I think it's harder for the lawyer to sugar-coat things, you know?

I've thought about it for several days now, and I think I am pretty happy how things went. The only I could have planned for better was to not to charge up the battery so much, because it started up in the parking garage when it was brought out to be seen by the arbitrator.

It would have be great if the attendant came back and said "Your car is dead"...that would of put some points in my favor!

Will let you guys know...don't know if it will take a few days, few weeks...

[nicksan]

Never go into court without a lawyer unless its something like a traffic ticket, a minor traffic ticket. If you had a lawyer that could have intimidated the other lawyer I think you'd have been in a much stronger position. As it was now you might have well been naked in the court room. Especially since you're being so reasonable, willing to take the same year car with higher mileage on an even trade, I wouldnt be surprised if you won.

←

Oh and regards to the the deals that Lex of Mass brought up, this was pre-hearing...so the arbitrator was outside the room.

So whatever was discussed between LEx of Mass, Lawyer, and myself, the arbitrator never heard...though I might guess that he might have had problems with the dirty tactics the attorney was using...

[nicksan]

Nick:  Good luck.  Sorry to here about your experience.  I bought a CPO 01, ES300 from Lexus of Roseville.  I have had it just about a year and a half now and it has been the best car ever.  The Lexus folks here in Sacramento, CA are so very professional.  HQ should be made aware of everthing that went on, they do not want their name brought down by some dirt bag dealer.  George

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I would imagine that there would be a HUGE difference between a Sacramento and a NY dealership.

Basically, you just can't trust anything in NY.

I've been here for over 25 years and I am seriosuly ready to move out of this sorry place...

[nicksan]

Well, I got the result letter and it says that I lost.

That was expected. I really went into this with a "Nothing to lose" attitude.

I win, I get my money back, great. I lose, I still have the car.

It stated that although my car was in service for over 45 days, it was not in there that long for the battery replacement and that the battery was not considered a lemon law item.

Oh well...bunch of balony...they arbitrator seemed pretty clueless about cars...he was like 70 years old or something...

Now I need to find out how losing in arbitration will effect the ES. Does that kind of thing show up on carfax? I would assume not, since they determined that it wasn't a lemon.

I will definitely take it to another dealer for sevice since Lexus of Mass do not owe me anything else. Finally, I can free myself from their crap, even if it means no loaner car. Oh, well, I rolled the dice, now I got to live with it.

Funny thing...I was going to drive up to the poconos July 4th weekend and one of the tires on the MDX had a nail in it and was running low.

I decided to take the ES. I pretty much said F*** it...let me take her out for a spin. It started fine in the driveway. It was pretty smooth. I felt pretty comfortable in it.

If I can somehow disassociate all the negative feelings I have about the car, and enjoy it, maybe I'll keep it. I just don't want to go through the hassle of selling it privately at the moment.

I think the battery is fine for the moment.

I'm thinking about calling corporate up and letting them know what I went through with the arbitration and try to get something out of it.

Like being able to take it to another dealer and have a full diagnostic run on it, maybe get a free 25k service and tranny fluid flush...who knows...something, to make up for all this sh*t and the fact that I have kept at it for so long.

Now that the results are in, I can rest easy. I drive the sh*t out of the ES.