A/c Recharge Question.

[calean007]

My wife's LS400 1992 is not blowing cold air. It's cool, but not like it was last year. I don't think it's a problem with the compressor, so I want to recharge the freon. So since I don't have one of those 100 dollar tech manuals, my questions are where under the hood is the stem to recharge it and is this something you can do on your own and what are the steps?

There, that's enough...

[monarch]

System capacity is about 3 cans of R12 Freon, but you probably need only 1 can because your system is still partially charged http://www.saber.net/~monarch/acrecharge.jpg The charging hose comes with can attachment and charging instructions.

Do not overfill. Fill just enough to get the center dash outlet temperature down to

35-40 degrees F with the system set for maximum cooling and 1 can or part of 1 can may be all it needs.

[cruznroadking]

Be sure to put on eye protection when you're doing this. Freon will blind you if you get it in your eyes.

[GRAND_LS 4]

System capacity is about 3 cans of R12 Freon, but you probably need only 1 can because your system is still partially charged http://www.saber.net/~monarch/acrecharge.jpg  The charging hose comes with can attachment and charging instructions.

Do not overfill.  Fill just enough to get the center dash outlet temperature down to

35-40 degrees F with the system set for maximum cooling and 1 can or part of 1 can may be all it needs.

←

Yes, make sure the AC is blowing on coldest temp, at Max speed while your recharging. Make sure you get R12, NOT 134a.

You can find the hoses, with a tech mete for 10bucs at discount auto parts.

[maxed_out]

I didnt think you can get R12 anymore in a can? Its been outlawed because of the supposed hole it has created in the ozone layer.

I converted my 91LS over to 134. A bit of a project but it can be done. The nice thing is that the 134 is only 5 bucks a can at Walmart.

[monarch]

R12 systems that are converted to R134a do not cool as well

and are not as reliable and durable. AC repair shops love R134a because

they make $bucks$ on the initial conversion and then more bucks

down the road on system breakdowns caused by the use of R134a

On ebay there are always ads for genuine Freon R12 like this one:

http://tinyurl.com/be9cz

To legally purchase R12 on ebay you need to furnish the seller with

a note like this:

" I hereby certify that the can of

Refrigerant R-12 that I am purchasing is being purchased solely for the

purpose of reselling it to a certified technician. I certify that I will

comply with all applicable Local, State and Federal regulations and laws

including payment of any taxes now due or that may become due on this

can of Refrigerant R-12, and that I am legally permitted to purchase,

accept delivery of, possess and resell this can of Refrigerant R-12. My

name is: _______________________________________ My address

is:______________________________________

__________________________________________________

__________________________________________________

__________________________________________________

Signed:___________________________ Date:___________

------------------------------------------------------------------------"

[Econ]

Niiiiice. So you need to sign a falsified legal document to get the R12.

Save yourself some moral highground and convert. You're doing yourself a favor trust me - this kind of stuff is buying trouble.

[maxed_out]

Econ.... we are on the same page. I would say that the 134 does not cool as well but you really can't notice it. Some days its gets really cold and I have to turn the ac off. As I recall I had to replace the drier and clean out the old oil from the system. I recharged with the proper type and amount of oil and 134....and have not had any troubles over 3yrs.

Oh yeah I think I had to change O rings too.

I dont remember where I got the procedure to convert but it was on the internet somewhere and straight forward.

Hope this helps somebody.

[monarch]

Niiiiice.  So you need to sign a falsified legal document to get the R12.

Save yourself some moral highground and convert.  You're doing yourself a favor trust me - this kind of stuff is buying trouble.

←

Tens of thousands of do-it-yourselfers have purchased Freon R12 on ebay over the past 9 years. And tens of thousands more have stockpiles in their homes that they bought prior to 1993 and routinely offer it for sale during yard sales. I've never heard of the Feds going after an individual do-it-yourself car owner.

Here's an analogous situation: There are several ongoing threads here in LOC where people are admitting they are modifying their cold air intakes, installing EGR block off plates, installing performance computer chips, etc. Some of these mods are technically serious violations of the Federal Clean Air Act, but no one raises any concern. Likewise many owners here on LOC have talked about their driving adventures in 100-145 MPH range on public roads.

R12 systems converted to R134a typically put out 45 - 50 degree F air from the dash vents instead of 32-40 degree air like R12 delivers. The compressor works harder and hotter decreasing it's life. The worst problem owners face who have converted is system leaks because special new O rings must be used in several areas of the system and special barrier type refrigerant hoses installed. Everytime the system loses all its refrigerant due to a leak it was have to be vacuumed by an AC shop and recharged at a cost of over $100, not counting the additional cost to repair the leak.

[PK_Lex]

Does 94 LS also use R12?

Also one more question.... I think my car is cooling like average, but I've never charged the AC system in 7 years that I've owned it. It has ~230k miles. Do you think I should add a can or 2 just incase....maybe the AC is not cooling to the full potential right now and adding a bit more might help?

[POS]

All vehicles before '95 have R12 unless it was converted at some point. And yes, the R12 will dissipate over the years, so I small 1/2 can bump might be what you need.

[CUMan]

My 94 ES 300 and my 93 LS 400 both use R-134 refrigerant.

They came from the factory with 134. I am not sure which year Lexus changed over.

[calean007]

Forgive me but I do not understand something. Can you buy the freon at an autoparts store, or do you have to get it elsewhere?

[monarch]

In the USA (but not Canada) you can buy R12 freon at an auto parts store but you'll pay twice as much as on ebay, plus you'll have to show proof of being certified to service R12 systems and that requires passing a 25 question test which is offered online at http://www.macsw.org/ for a minimal fee.

It's much easier to buy R12 Freon on ebay. Just bid on some, win the auction and mail the seller either cash or a postal money order. I've mailed cash about 100 times to pay for various auctions and it was never lost or stolen by the seller.

Also, if the seller requires it, mail him a copy of the following with your money

" I hereby certify that the can of

Refrigerant R-12 that I am purchasing is being purchased solely for the

purpose of reselling it to a certified technician. I certify that I will

comply with all applicable Local, State and Federal regulations and laws

including payment of any taxes now due or that may become due on this

can of Refrigerant R-12, and that I am legally permitted to purchase,

accept delivery of, possess and resell this can of Refrigerant R-12. My

name is: _______________________________________ My address

is:______________________________________

__________________________________________________

__________________________________________________

__________________________________________________

Signed:___________________________ Date:___________

------------------------------------------------------------------------"

[monarch]

Does 94 LS also use R12? Also one more question.... I think my car is cooling like average, but I've never charged the AC system in 7 years that I've owned it.  It has ~230k miles.  Do you think I should add a can or 2 just incase....maybe the AC is not cooling to the full potential right now and adding a bit more might help?

←

The '93 on up models use R134a refrigerant. It's possible that your system is slightly low on R134a after 11 years, but if the cooling still seems good then it might need only 1/2 of a can.

When the AC controls are set for maximum cooling, the center dash outlet temperatures of factory original R134a systems should be around 35-42 degrees F. If they are higher then it's a sign the system is at least a bit low on R134a.

The most accurate way to measure the refrigerant level is to follow the procedure described in the factory repair manual. This involves locating the refrigerant sight glass and checking it for the presense of a stream of bubbles when the AC system is running and set for cooling.

Alot of bubbles indicates too little refrigerant. But if the sight glass is mostly free of bubbles the system is either properly charged or overcharged. When properly charged, the sight glass will briefly become foamy for a second or two when the AC system is shut off. If overcharged the sight glass with stay free of bubbles even after the AC system is shut off.

[914lps]

Look I live in Bullhead City Az, It gets to 130% in the shade in July! I have 3 cars. 84 Saab, 89 Bronco, and 91 LS 400.

Ford and Saab have been conveted over to 134A. If and when the LS needs Freon, it to will be conveted. Saab has over 30,000 miles running the AC with 134A!

Did both cars myself. Kit and coolant was under $50.00. Is easy DIY but you must first have all leaks fixed!, then have system completly vacumed. Then ad the new 134A. Do not replace one for one. If you replace R12 with the same amount of 134A, system will be over filled and not work as well. With 134A you need about 20% less. So use a hose with a gadge on it, and refill by the gadge!.

Both my Saab and Truck, cool just as good with 134A as they did with r-12. But that is becouse I did it right!

Also no long term harm to system if you do it right. Use a kit that comes with the 134A that already has the oil in it. Folks mess up and do not put in the stuff with the oil, then the system will not last.

[PK_Lex]

Monarch - thanks for the information. I will go ahead and add about 1/2 a can of R134a refrigerant. Do you know where to look for for the sight glass?

Do we put R134a same way and location as it shows in the picture for putting R12?

[Kennyr]

Monarch - thanks for the information.  I will go ahead and add about 1/2 a can of R134a refrigerant.  Do you know where to look for for the sight glass?

Do we put R134a same way and location as it shows in the picture for putting R12?

←

I would like to know where the sight glass is also. I converted my 91 over to R134 a couple years ago. The fitting is located on the passenger side firewall under the cruise control actuater. Just evacuate the system and screw on the new R134 fill fitting. Install a 2oz can of ester oil and 2 and 1/2 cans of R134 and your good to go. It will blow cold as ever and you can top it up for 5 bucks a can in the future if need be. Dont fall for the scare tactics saying you have to change anything else. No filters or o rings. I have a small amount of R12 left but its just a myth that its any better than R134.

[PK_Lex]

Kenny - I did a search for it in this forum and this is what one member wrote:

"You will be able to see the 'flowing' bubbles yourself if present in the sight glass[which is on the rt side of the elec radiator fans-this is rt as sitting in car]; it is in the small pipe going to the condenser."

Hope that helps.

[monarch]

PK - here is the location of the sight glass on the 1990-1992 R12 LS400's. It might be the same on your '94 R234a car. http://www.saber.net/~monarch/sightglass.JPG

You can add refrigerant to any fitting that has a Black colored cap. Never add to a Red colored cap. Always hold the can upright when charging. Have the engine idling and the AC on when charging. You'll know when refrigerant gas is flowing into the system because the can will start getting cold. Wear eye protection in case something goes wrong. I've seen a can tap valve cut a hole in the can and cause refrigerant

to leak out the can - fortunately I caught the leak quickly before the hole was big enough to squirt -20 degree F refrigerant onto my skin or face.

Kennyr won't be able to use his sight glass because he converted his factory oriiginal R12 system over to R134a - that's just one of the many disadvantages of converting.

However, the sight glass will work on factory original R134a systems like yours and factory original R134a systems are also pretty reliable and durable because the factory used special R134a compatible hoses, receiver-drier, 0-rings, compressor oil and a larger capacity AC condenser.

[calean007]

I found this stuff called freeze 12 that is compatible with r12 and r132 systems.

[monarch]

Nope. Freeze 12, Hot Shot, Maxi-Frig and many others are not fully compatible.

The only two TOYOTA APPROVED refrigerants available for a Toyota R12 system are genuine Freon R12 or R134a and converting to the R134a involves a complicated and expensive procedure if you do it the Toyota approved way (new Densoil #8 compressor oil, a new R134a compatible Receiver-Drier and a bunch of new specially compounded rubber O-ring seals for the receiver-drier and other fittings in the system) And even after you install all that your system sight glass will appear cloudy so it will be useless for determining whether or not you have a proper refrigerant charge.

Thus the least expensive, least complicated way to recharge your R12 system is by buying a can of genuine Freon R12 on ebay along with a charging hose and adding it like this: http://www.saber.net/~monarch/acrecharge.jpg Staying with R12 also assures maximum system reliability and durability.

[Kennyr]

Nope.  Freeze 12, Hot Shot, Maxi-Frig and many others are not fully compatible.

The only two TOYOTA APPROVED refrigerants available for a Toyota R12 system are genuine Freon R12 or R134a and converting to the R134a involves a complicated and expensive procedure if you do it the Toyota approved way (new Densoil #8 compressor oil, a new R134a compatible Receiver-Drier and a bunch of new specially compounded rubber O-ring seals for the receiver-drier and other fittings in the system)  And even after you install all that your system sight glass will appear cloudy so it will be useless for determining whether or not you have a proper refrigerant charge.

Thus the least expensive, least complicated way to recharge your R12 system is by buying a can of genuine Freon R12 on ebay along with a charging hose and adding it like this: http://www.saber.net/~monarch/acrecharge.jpg  Staying with R12 also assures maximum system reliability and durability.

←

Sure I agree with the fact that R12 will work, and work well. Heck, when I converted over I had a little R12 left in a 30lb bottle sitting on my shelf. The main reason I converted to R134 is because I do alot of long road trips through Nevada and Utah in the summers. If I need a cold shot for my A/C I want to just go to Wall Mart and get a hose and a can of R134 for 15 bucks and get back on the road with cool air blowing on me. Finding a can of R12 ain't gonna happen. Even if you had an old can of R12 you cant carry it in your car in the summer. I dont carry R134 either. But I take my hose when I remember to. Anyway as a full time mechanic I've converted many many cars over to R134 (without changing all those parts and o rings) and never had a problem or complaint. In a humid climate you could change the dryer. I still work on some of these cars today 10 years later without a problem or even leaks. My Lexus is blowing cold for a couple years now since. Dont overthink this. Its a cheap quick deal. As far as the sight glass they are nice, but at 5 bucks a can its just as easy to empty your system and put in the right amount. Most cars made after 93 dont even have sight glasses anyway. If your paying big bucks for R12 a sight glass will save you money for sure.

[monarch]

Kennyr, reliability and durability is priority #1 at Toyota and that's why, when converting R12 systems over to R134a, Toyota requires special a special ultra high quality compressor oil, special R134a compatible 0-ring seals, a special R134a compatible receiver-drier and requires the system to be vacuumed. As Guy Telefunken said on another thread "these are premium cars, not domestic junk". One of the reasons they are so reliable is because they were designed to be using premium parts made with premium materials and built to premium fit tolerance standards.

You may not be aware of how reliable and durable a Toyota AC system can be if it is maintained according to Toyotas recommendations: Here are three examples:

1. My '92 Toyota pickup, 455,000 miles of driving in California's hot Central Valley and no AC system breakdowns in all that time. I just topped off the system once with 1/2 can of R12.

2. My '89 Toyota Corolla, 239,000 miles of driving in California's hot Central Valley and no AC system breakdowns in all that time. I just topped off the system once with 1/2 can of R12.

3. My '74 Toyota Corona, only 61,000 miles but still no AC system breakdowns despite being 31 years old. The system has just been topped off twice with 1/2 - 3/4 can of R12 in all that time.

[Kennyr]

Kennyr, reliability and durability is priority #1 at Toyota and that's why, when converting R12 systems over to R134a, Toyota requires special a special ultra high quality compressor oil, special R134a compatible 0-ring seals, a special R134a compatible receiver-drier and requires the system to be vacuumed.  As Guy Telefunken said on another thread "these are premium cars, not domestic junk". One of the reasons they are so reliable is because they were designed to be using premium parts made with premium materials and built to premium fit tolerance standards.

You may not be aware of how reliable and durable a Toyota AC system can be if it is maintained according to Toyotas recommendations:  Here are three examples:

1. My '92 Toyota pickup, 455,000 miles of driving in California's hot Central Valley and no AC system breakdowns in all that time.  I just topped off the system once with 1/2 can of R12.

2. My '89 Toyota Corolla, 239,000 miles of driving in California's hot Central Valley and no AC system breakdowns in all that time.  I just topped off the system once with 1/2 can of R12.

3. My '74 Toyota Corona, only 61,000 miles but still no AC system breakdowns despite being 31 years old.  The system has just been topped off twice with 1/2 - 3/4 can of R12 in all that time.

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Monarch, I dont think most people driving 14 year old cars in this forum need or want to spend a fortune for a repair when a proven method costing 90% less exists. I worked for a Volvo dealer when this issue came up in the early 90s. Volvo first told us all the same you are saying. Within a year their position changed and the factory starting making a retro fit kit. New Dryer, evacuate the system and change the fill valve and put in R134. Guess what? It worked perfect with no problems at all. Lots of a/c systems in lots of different cars will last a long time without problems. Toyota's percentages for all problems are lower than others for sure.