Please Do Me A Favour

[swordfish]

Craig

you are not alone-I have the same problem down here. My mechanic says engine sounds like timing is not advancing-that is why engine does not miss but is "doughy". TRy this test also - he got me to rev engine at idle, like in your video,and he put his hands about 1 foot from exhaust pipes and could feel particles in the stream-indicating a possible collapse in the cats. I replaced them, and it was better, but not fixed. The exhasust guy said they were not completely blocked when he looked thru them after removal,and could have gone longer.You can get a mechanic to check exhaust restriction b 4 changing them($500 the pair,generic brand) by drilling a hole and measuring restriction. Also my mech found that accessory drive belt had severed the wire to LH cam position sensor, thus stoppping advance happining. Alter these fixes, and having already done timing belt,plugs leads fuel filter etc it was better, but not fixed. he says only way forward now is a dyno run to check fuelflow, advance,spark etc under load-then u can pinpoint the cause.As i am rather scotish, I have not done this yet, but may do after xmas. Otherwise u just keep replacing things and never get to the bottom. Your vid is interesting-at first I thought it looked ok, better than mine, but the 0-60mph time proves u have a problem-I would say mine is worse than yours,its not reving as quick up high, but does eventually get there.Definately finding a good dyno man is the answer. Incidently mine was normal until one day it went funny when I gave it a big rev in second and third gear on a deserted road,sounded like a bang and then a missing, I put it down to a fuel filter blockage at the time,cos I changd it after and it was like mud inside!As quite often with cars, a problem is not just one cause, but a combination of many factors.....

Craig, ooops, i forgot to say its a 92 ls400 with 234,000km.

[CanadaCraig]

Hi thieaux, michjm AND swordfish!! :)

I hope you guys are OK.

I'm glad this topic thread was brought back to life!!

I'm still dealing with the same problem. But I think I know what MIGHT be causing it.

As swordfish said - it's not always just one thing. But in my case - I think there's only one thing left!! lol

What I'm going to have replaced when I bring my LS back in for service [which will probably be early February of 2006] are all four O2 Sensors. [Oxygen Sensors] From what I've been reading... my 1993 LS uses the OBD-I computer. The OBD-I is not nearly as sensitive as the OBD-II. [the computer that all cars made since about 1996 have] The OBD-I will NOT necessarily trigger the CEL ['check engine light'] IF an O2 Sensor is FAILING. The O2 Sensor has to actually FAIL before the CEL comes on. With the more modern OBD-II computer - a FAILING O2 Sensor is likely to cause the CEL to come on. [does that make any sense?!] At least that's the impression I've been given. I'm also going to have the MAP thing cleaned and the PCV valve replaced. [none of the O2 Sensors have ever been replaced and neither has the PCV valve] Even if the the problem is NOT caused by the O2 Sensors - it probably wouldn't hurt to change them anyways. O2 Sensors DO become less sensitive as time and mileage add up. I don't think the PCV valve has anything to do with anything. I just want it changed. I mean - why not. Everything else has been!! :P

Let me describe - once again - how my car performs. When I start the car cold - I always turn the key to the 'run' position and wait for the fuel injectors to get ready. [you can hear them] Once they have stopped - I start the car. More often than not - the engine seems to 'choke' on something just before turning over. I'm not sure how to describe it any other way. As the engine warms up during the high-idle phase, it feels and sounds 'rough'. Not 'truck-engine' rough - but not nearly as 'smooth' as I think it should be. There is a 'surge' feeling which [at one time] lead me to believe that it was 'missing'. Apparently - that's one of the signs of a failing O2 Sensor. The engine also seems to take a longer time than it should to drop down to a warm idle. [whether that means anything - I don't know] Once I'm one my way - everything seems OK. [basically] In fact - that car drives quite nicely. That is - unless I accelerate hard. When I push the gas pedal to the floor from a dead stop - it still takes 12 to 13 seconds to reach 60 MPH. [just as it always has - at least since I've owned it] Oddly enough - it takes the same 12 to 13 seconds to reach 60 mph with the gas pedal pressed down only 3/4 of the way down. This would lead me to believe that the engine is running 'rich' AND that the timing is being negatively effected in some way. [correct me if I'm wrong please] And IF it's running 'rich' and the timing is being effected [which is how the computer might respond to the misleading information coming from a failing O2 Sensor] than the engine WOULD have a more difficult time dealing with a sudden flow of incoming fuel. [Oh yeah!! I've been THINKING about this!! lol] A failing O2 Sensor might also be the cause [or at least the indirect cause] of abrupt gear changes that my car experiences when accelerated hard. The reason Lexus transmissions usually shift so smoothly is because the computer retards the timing as each gear moves to the next. Trouble is - that timing is being effected [possibly] BY the computers response to the failing O2 Sensor. I'm the first to admit that I was never good at math - but all of my cars problems SEEM to add up to a failing or faulty O2 Sensor. [perhaps all 4 of them aren't working as they should] Also of note if that the engine 'surge' is always considerably more noticable right after I have accelerated hard.

I appreciate the advice swordfish [and I enjoyed reading your message] but apparently the 'cats' on my car are OK. [just as everything else is OK - so say the Lexus mechanics] Trouble is - I think far too many mechanics THESE DAYS relay too much ON dash board 'idiot lights'. If the computer doesn't have a 'code' for them to read - they seem lost.

My 1993 LS400 now has just under 125,000 Km's.

Oh no. I better get to bed. If I'm not sleeping when Santa comes - it will be nothing but lumps of coal for ME!!

MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE!!

Craig!! :)

[jc19907]

I just went and tested my car. I got to 60 in about 7.8 seconds and to 95 in about 14.9 seconds...all on a '95 LS400 with 240,290 miles. I only have 10hp more than the first gen cars, so I would imagine their times would be somewhere around mine; not to mention, I have a bunch of crap in my trunk. I tried posting the mpeg, but the site wouldn't let me eventhough it says unlimited space in the attachment space. I'd like to hear from some '98+ guys with the 290hp engines!

OK,

I had to get in on this cut up. I watched the video, and yes, this car is made for driving outside the USA.

Once he reaches 100 KPH he's at 62 MPH. So, I think this car is getting to 60 around just under nine seconds. I have a 99 and I've tested it some; it gets to 60 around/under 6.5 secs regularly.

Recently on a cold morning, with that nice dense air, I got there in well under 6.5. 6.3 is what my watch read. Hard to stop a watch exactly. For a big car they are very quick.

I had a 500sl a few years ago and the Lexus is actually faster and lighter feeling.

[swordfish]

Hi thieaux, michjm AND swordfish!! :)

I hope you guys are OK.

I'm glad this topic thread was brought back to life!!

I'm still dealing with the same problem. But I think I know what MIGHT be causing it.

As swordfish said - it's not always just one thing. But in my case - I think there's only one thing left!! lol

What I'm going to have replaced when I bring my LS back in for service [which will probably be early February of 2006] are all four O2 Sensors. [Oxygen Sensors] From what I've been reading... my 1993 LS uses the OBD-I computer. The OBD-I is not nearly as sensitive as the OBD-II. [the computer that all cars made since about 1996 have] The OBD-I will NOT necessarily trigger the CEL ['check engine light'] IF an O2 Sensor is FAILING. The O2 Sensor has to actually FAIL before the CEL comes on. With the more modern OBD-II computer - a FAILING O2 Sensor is likely to cause the CEL to come on. [does that make any sense?!] At least that's the impression I've been given. I'm also going to have the MAP thing cleaned and the PCV valve replaced. [none of the O2 Sensors have ever been replaced and neither has the PCV valve] Even if the the problem is NOT caused by the O2 Sensors - it probably wouldn't hurt to change them anyways. O2 Sensors DO become less sensitive as time and mileage add up. I don't think the PCV valve has anything to do with anything. I just want it changed. I mean - why not. Everything else has been!! :P

Let me describe - once again - how my car performs. When I start the car cold - I always turn the key to the 'run' position and wait for the fuel injectors to get ready. [you can hear them] Once they have stopped - I start the car. More often than not - the engine seems to 'choke' on something just before turning over. I'm not sure how to describe it any other way. As the engine warms up during the high-idle phase, it feels and sounds 'rough'. Not 'truck-engine' rough - but not nearly as 'smooth' as I think it should be. There is a 'surge' feeling which [at one time] lead me to believe that it was 'missing'. Apparently - that's one of the signs of a failing O2 Sensor. The engine also seems to take a longer time than it should to drop down to a warm idle. [whether that means anything - I don't know] Once I'm one my way - everything seems OK. [basically] In fact - that car drives quite nicely. That is - unless I accelerate hard. When I push the gas pedal to the floor from a dead stop - it still takes 12 to 13 seconds to reach 60 MPH. [just as it always has - at least since I've owned it] Oddly enough - it takes the same 12 to 13 seconds to reach 60 mph with the gas pedal pressed down only 3/4 of the way down. This would lead me to believe that the engine is running 'rich' AND that the timing is being negatively effected in some way. [correct me if I'm wrong please] And IF it's running 'rich' and the timing is being effected [which is how the computer might respond to the misleading information coming from a failing O2 Sensor] than the engine WOULD have a more difficult time dealing with a sudden flow of incoming fuel. [Oh yeah!! I've been THINKING about this!! lol] A failing O2 Sensor might also be the cause [or at least the indirect cause] of abrupt gear changes that my car experiences when accelerated hard. The reason Lexus transmissions usually shift so smoothly is because the computer retards the timing as each gear moves to the next. Trouble is - that timing is being effected [possibly] BY the computers response to the failing O2 Sensor. I'm the first to admit that I was never good at math - but all of my cars problems SEEM to add up to a failing or faulty O2 Sensor. [perhaps all 4 of them aren't working as they should] Also of note if that the engine 'surge' is always considerably more noticable right after I have accelerated hard.

I appreciate the advice swordfish [and I enjoyed reading your message] but apparently the 'cats' on my car are OK. [just as everything else is OK - so say the Lexus mechanics] Trouble is - I think far too many mechanics THESE DAYS relay too much ON dash board 'idiot lights'. If the computer doesn't have a 'code' for them to read - they seem lost.

My 1993 LS400 now has just under 125,000 Km's.

Oh no. I better get to bed. If I'm not sleeping when Santa comes - it will be nothing but lumps of coal for ME!!

MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE!!

Craig!! :)

love to hear how your o2 sensor replacement goes see if it makes a dofference to your accceleration.

[jainla]

Sounds like the MAF or the O2 sensors...I remember someone saying they took off the MAF and the LS ran like a racehorse...(you can search for MAF and racehorse and maybe you can find the post). Might explain the weakness in the upper rev range.

If you can, remove the MAF and repeat the test? I don't know if the engine will run without it or not. Let us know if you figure it out

I think it's fantastic that we are talking about near-new performance in cars with a quarter million miles or KM.

Now THATS moving you forward.....

[93ls400walt]

Hello Canada,

An obscure thought would be the rear end gear ratio. If it was altered this would change your 0-60 time. I don't know the standerd factory ratio. and the only way I know to calculate yours is by counting the gear notches on the ring and on the pinion and dividing the pinion into the ring for your ratio.

[JBrady]

Craig,

I have not read every post in this thread but most of yours. I understand many things have been checked and replaced or ruled out.

I did not notice if your car is equiped with traction control. The Lexus traction control is a second butterfly or throttle plate. If it is partially closed it could be throttling your engine. Don't know if that has been inspected. Not certain if if could be open when the engine is off and then close up with it running due to an out of whack signal somewhere.

Partially blocked exhaust will also throttle the engine. I would confirm that the catalysts are not damaged in any way. A cracked, melted or fouled monolyth core could cause your symptoms.

Another possibility could be extreme buildup on your intake valves. I have seen some engines with massive deposits on the intake valves. Deposits will reduce the valve and ports flow ability and becomes a form of throttling. If an engine has enough deposits it would cause your symptoms.

Hope this helps.

[CanadaCraig]

Hi swordfish!! :)

I'll be sure to let you know what effect the new O2 Sensors have on the car. Even if they are NOT the cause of 'the problem' - I don't think it will hurt to replace them. They are a 'wear-item' after all.

Hi jainla!! :)

I'll definitely have the MAF looked at. In fact - I plan on insisting that EVERYTHING be looked at. [again] I could have someone else look at my car - of course - but I fear that the moment I do that - my Lexus dealer has an 'out'. And I don't know if I want to give them that 'out'. [just yet] "Well.... I'm sorry Sir - but WE don't know what the 'other guy' might have done to your car - so we can't possibly be responsible for anything that might be wrong with it!!" [do you see what I mean?!] My car still has about 8 months worth of warranty. Maybe after THAT ends I'll be more willing to have someone ELSE look at my car.

Hi 93ls400walt!! :)

You've got your thinking cap on - that's for sure!! But I doubt anything was ever done to my car's gear ratios or rear end. My car was literally owned by a 'nice old couple'. He died soon after they bought the car and she just left it parked every winter while she went to Arizona or Florida. My car had a permanent battery charger installed. [which was removed when I bought the car]

Hi JBrady!! :)

Yes!! My car has traction control. SRK [another member of LOC] also suggested that my cars problem might be that TRAC throttle butterfly/plate thing. It HAS been looked at - so I've been told - but sometimes I can't help but wonder if my Lexus dealer is lying whenever they tell me, "Yes - we DID look at that and everything is fine!!" Apparently - the 'cats' are fine. But who knows. As for any extreme buildup on the intake valves - all 32 valves were adjusted last year. I'm assuming that any buildup would have been noted THEN.

Thanks Guys - for all the help!!

What baffles and confuses and puzzles me is the fact that - every now and then - my car will accelerate beautifully. It FEELS as though it's only taking 8 seconds to reach 60 and each gear change - at redline - is Lexus smooth. It's because of those [few and far between] moments that I'm frustrated. I KNOW how my car SHOULD feel. If it was always poor - I probably wouldn't have noticed. I would have just assumed that all LS400's drive that way.

Craig!! :)

[ArmyofOne]

I'll definitely have the MAF looked at. In fact - I plan on insisting that EVERYTHING be looked at. [again] I could have someone else look at my car - of course - but I fear that the moment I do that - my Lexus dealer has an 'out'. And I don't know if I want to give them that 'out'. [just yet] "Well.... I'm sorry Sir - but WE don't know what the 'other guy' might have done to your car - so we can't possibly be responsible for anything that might be wrong with it!!" [do you see what I mean?!] My car still has about 8 months worth of warranty. Maybe after THAT ends I'll be more willing to have someone ELSE look at my car.

Craig!! :)

So dont tell em. you have the right to remain silent. Its YOUR car, you have the right to have whoever you want look at it. :)

[RFeldes]

Excellent Army!!!

Perserverence Pays, Lackeys Lose!!!

Craig, we are all with you!!!

[JBrady]

Hi JBrady!! :)

Yes!! My car has traction control. SRK [another member of LOC] also suggested that my cars problem might be that TRAC throttle butterfly/plate thing. It HAS been looked at - so I've been told - but sometimes I can't help but wonder if my Lexus dealer is lying whenever they tell me, "Yes - we DID look at that and everything is fine!!" Apparently - the 'cats' are fine. But who knows. As for any extreme buildup on the intake valves - all 32 valves were adjusted last year. I'm assuming that any buildup would have been noted THEN.

Well, since the traction control is dynamic it could be malfuntioning and may be open with the engine off and mostly closed with it running.

Cats need visual inspection or confirmed pressure test.

Adjusting the valves is the valve lash and is done under the valve covers. Buildup occurs on the back of the valve face and the stem INSIDE the port area and would not be visable without removing the intake manifold or using a very small camera looking in through a removed injector hole.

As far as your dealership acting fed up with your car... hard to respond there... I would ask the service manager what the car should accelerate to 60mph in (apx 100kph). If he doesn't know show him a copy of a published time easily found on the internet. Once the 8.0 to 8.5 second number is agreed ask him if nearly double that sounds healthy?

If no help I would seek competent outside of dealership help.

[mickg]

Craig:

AOL won't let me open the video, however my '94 with 125,000 does 60 in about the 8 - 9 sec range, even in the thinner air of Denver.

Mick

Hi Guys!! :)

Please click on THIS and download a 4MB video of my 1993 Lexus LS400 gauges as I am going from zero to 60 mph. [and beyond] The results are always the same. Could you THEN [after watching the little video] let me know IF I am imagining things or IF my LS400 really DOES take longer than it should to get up to speed.

I would really appreciate it.

For comparison purposes - it would make more sense if other owners of the 1st generation LS would respond. [but I would be grateful for any responses]

Thank you very much.

Craig!! :)

[CanadaCraig]

Hi Guys!! :)

I hope you're all feeling great!!

Well..... I made the appointment. My LS is going to be dropped off this Sunday [Feb 26th] and worked on ON Monday. [possibly Tuesday - too]

I've decided to keep my car. I test drove a Chrysler 300C and really loved it. But every time I did the math - I could hardly believe the money I'd be throwing away. The taxes alone would be over $5,000. [even with the LS as a trade] Add to that the depreciation the moment MY 'plates' would be screwed onto the car - and I'd be looking at upwards of $15,000. And for what? I'd rather spend $2,000 on the car I already own [my 1993 LS] and drive it until it [or I] drop. I'm assuming that's the smart thing to do. My car only has 128,000 km's so it still has some life left in her.

OK.... with that out of the way.

Here is what I'm having done to my car next week.

- Appropriate service [oil change, etc.]

- Scan for fault codes

- Keyless remote looked at - and if OK - having batteries replaced in both keys.

- ENTIRE traction control system checked out - including accumulator pump, wheel speed sensors, traction control throttle place, etc.

- Clean entire throttle body

- MAF sensor examined and cleaned if OK [replaced if not]

- Catalytic Converters looked at [mostly likely OK]

- All O2 Sensors replaced

- PCV valve replaced

- Battery terminals cleaned - AGAIN. [i thought they used to put Vaseline on them to prevent corrosion]

- Steering pump checked for leaks

- Alternator checked. [Lexus guy says Lexus now uses updated alternator when replacing old one]

- Check ignition coil

- distributor/rotors [maybe - they say their OK even though they have NEVER been replaced]

SUSPENSION: [all OEM parts]

- new struts

- new strut 'cushions'

- all bushings [other than sway bar - since they were replaced a year ago]

- coil springs [maybe - not sure yet]

- new rear carrier arm bushing [maybe - clunking noise when shifting from 'D' to 'R' - does failing RCAB cause that?]

My LS feels 'old'. It drives as if it's windy out [on the freeway] even if it's not. My LS also sits about an 1.5" lower on drivers side. I'm thinking maybe new coil springs will fix that.

I'm actually a bit nervous about this. So PLEASE help me while there is still time. IF there is something on my list that you think is a waste of time and money - please speak up NOW. And if there is something MISSING from my list - PLEASE let me know.

Maybe having the entire TRAC system checked out and/or having the throttle body cleaned is a waste of time. I'm not sure. Let me know what you think.

As usual - I am grateful for any and all help.

THANKS!!

Craig!! :)

[Threadcutter]

Craig:

I'd rather spend $2,000 on the car I already own [my 1993 LS] and drive it until it [or I] drop. I'm assuming that's the smart thing to do. My car only has 128,000 km's so it still has some life left in her.

128k Clicks?..............You've got a brand new car man! I bought mine "lightly used" with 150k Miles. I've got 2 ES300's; 210k miles & 340k miles respectively. I'd still rather drive either of them than new "anything else". I grin ear to ear when I think about how much mileage I've gotten from Lexus'. If any of them died tomorrow, I'd happily go buy another. And I'd most likely buy used; let some other poor !Removed! take the depreciation hit.

My LS feels 'old'. See above.

Maybe having the entire TRAC system checked out and/or having the throttle body cleaned is a waste of time. I'm not sure. Let me know what you think. I think you're on the right track. Have you ever done a "before and after" comparison on the throttle body cleaning?

I'm an American and I can't bring myself to buying a new American car, driving it off the lot, and by the time I hit the slow lane, I'm $15,000 poorer........makes no sense. Conversely, putting $2K to $3K into a car like an Ls400; that's pretty much a no brainer.

[nc211]

Craig, you'll have a new car with all of those updates man! I haven't read this entire thread, so I might be missing something, please excuse my ignorance.

How about spark plugs? That might be a big help too.

You won't go wrong with the suspension repairs, no matter if they 'appear" to be ok. That soft rubber hardens up over time, and in your climate area, I'm sure the cold air had probably advanced that a bit. You'll love those updates for sure! The rear carrier bushings are probably ready to be replaced. Mine were shot at 90k miles. The pcv pipe, you might actually want to take that one off of the list and do it yourself. It's soooo easy to do, takes maybe 5 minutes and a set of needle nose pliers. They might charge you like $50 bucks for a something that should only cost maybe $5. The cleaning of the throttle body....you'll like those results! It smoothes out the idle, and I've noticed when i did mine, it smoothed out the engines operation in general, including the transmission feel "I have NO earthly idea why???" but it did. It also gave more breathing room for the engine, which perked up the pep a bit too!

that windy feeling you get on the highway....have you replaced your lower ball joints and outter tie rods on the steering before? Those two items seem to be the root of that feeling "if not suspension bushing & strut related". I did mine, and I do get that feeling a little bit still, but I know my rack is leaking a little on the passenger side. I'm up to 112k miles on mine, and I think it's getting close to addressing the inner tie rods and internal rack bushings. I'll probably just replace the rack in general, as I tend to like to dump too much money into my car... .

That thump into D and R: I'm not sure if the 93 has those two rubber rear differential mounting cushions? If you look under the car, from the back, do you see two round donut sized mounts on the crossmember where the differential connects to the car? If so, you might want to have them replaced as well. I found with mine, the torque of the driveshaft over time will tear the driver's side bushing pretty badly, causing the inner metal piece to "mush" down enough to hit the outter metal ring piece, creating a metal sounding thump. Those two mounts aren't too expensive, I think maybe $30 each? But the labor can be steep because they have to take out the differential to get them out.

In short, I think you'll be very happy with the car after the repairs, especially your suspension stuff!! I'd just stick with what you're doing now, and if you have the drifting feeling and thump still in your driveline, then maybe take a look at the ball joints and tie rods up front later on.

I'm jealous man, sounds like you're gonna have a new car! I agree on the 300m comments. Depreciation is a tough pill to take. I hate it as well!! And unless I own my own business and can put the car in the business's name to claim all of that depreciation on the tax returns to reduce my tax bill, I will never pay it again!

[CanadaCraig]

Hi Threadcutter!! :)

Thanks for the message. I appreciate your input. It means a lot to me. It's especially nice to know that you are STILL very happy with your Lexus' even though one of them has 340,000 miles. WOW. I don't blame you for grinning!!

Depreciation really sucks. I'm not sure I could ever convince myself to buy 'new' again.

I've never been able to compare a car - before and after wise - insofar as having the throttle body cleaned. It just makes sense - though - that it WOULD make a difference. At least that's what I'm counting on.

I hope the dealer DOES everything I ask. I guess I'll find out soon enough.

Send happy thoughts to my Lexus on Monday!! lol :P

Thanks again,

Craig!! :)

[CanadaCraig]

Hi nc211!! :)

I hope you're OK. Thank you very much for the help. I appreciate it.

Just so you know.... the spark plugs, spark plug wires, timing belt, fuel pump, fuel filter [and a few other things] were changed sometime in the past 2.5 years. Also - all 32 valves were adjusted.

After reading your message [and 'Threadcutters' message] I'm starting to get excited about having a 'new' LS400. Considering what I'm having done to my car - it really should drive AND perform a lot better.

As for WHY cleaning the throttle body would improve how the transmission shifts - I think it might have something to do with how a dirty throttle body [and/or failing O2 Sensors] might interfere with what would normally be a smooth flow of fuel. That interference is confusing the computer that retards the ignition to create the famous Lexus-smooth shift. At least that's MY theory. I have noticed that my LS often shifts rather harshly when the engine is hesitating and surging. But when my car is NOT hesitating and surging [which doesn't happen often] the gears shift beautifully. It's like a different car. I am hoping that when I pick my car up again - early next week - it will be fine and dandy ALL THE TIME. [and not just every now and then]

As for the suspension repairs - I hope you're right!! It feels OK [i guess] for the most part - just 'old' - like I said earlier. AND it moves about a little too much. [not very confidence inspiring] It also sits about an inch lower on the drivers side. What concerns me is that I remember an LOC member having the same problem and when HE changed his struts and coil springs - his car was STILL uneven. [i wish I could find his post] None of the suspension parts [other than the sway bar bushings] have EVER been replaced. [by me OR by the previous owner] I've asked to dealer to thoroughly inspect EVERYTHING so if the ball joints and/or outer tie rods aren't 'tight' - than I'll have those replaced too. [along with all of the bushings, struts, strut cushions and - possibly - coil springs]

I'll also have them check the two rubber differential mounting cushions.

Thanks again, nc211. I've read and re-read your message several times already. [and I'm taking notes]

I'll let you [and 'Treadcutter' - AND everyone else who has helped me in this thread] know how everything turns out.

Craig!! :)

[Threadcutter]

Hi nc211!! :)

I hope you're OK. Thank you very much for the help. I appreciate it.

Just so you know.... the spark plugs, spark plug wires, timing belt, fuel pump, fuel filter [and a few other things] were changed sometime in the past 2.5 years. Also - all 32 valves were adjusted.

After reading your message [and 'Threadcutters' message] I'm starting to get excited about having a 'new' LS400. Considering what I'm having done to my car - it really should drive AND perform a lot better.

As for WHY cleaning the throttle body would improve how the transmission shifts - I think it might have something to do with how a dirty throttle body [and/or failing O2 Sensors] might interfere with what would normally be a smooth flow of fuel. That interference is confusing the computer that retards the ignition to create the famous Lexus-smooth shift. At least that's MY theory. I have noticed that my LS often shifts rather harshly when the engine is hesitating and surging. But when my car is NOT hesitating and surging [which doesn't happen often] the gears shift beautifully. It's like a different car. I am hoping that when I pick my car up again - early next week - it will be fine and dandy ALL THE TIME. [and not just every now and then]

As for the suspension repairs - I hope you're right!! It feels OK [i guess] for the most part - just 'old' - like I said earlier. AND it moves about a little too much. [not very confidence inspiring] It also sits about an inch lower on the drivers side. What concerns me is that I remember an LOC member having the same problem and when HE changed his struts and coil springs - his car was STILL uneven. [i wish I could find his post] None of the suspension parts [other than the sway bar bushings] have EVER been replaced. [by me OR by the previous owner] I've asked to dealer to thoroughly inspect EVERYTHING so if the ball joints and/or outer tie rods aren't 'tight' - than I'll have those replaced too. [along with all of the bushings, struts, strut cushions and - possibly - coil springs]

I'll also have them check the two rubber differential mounting cushions.

Thanks again, nc211. I've read and re-read your message several times already. [and I'm taking notes]

I'll let you [and 'Treadcutter' - AND everyone else who has helped me in this thread] know how everything turns out.

Craig!! :)

Craig:

I've done most but not all of the work on my LS. Of the work that I've had Indie(s) do, most of the time they do what we have agreed to in advance, but sometimes they don't. What really drives me nuts is not the guy that makes an honest mistake and admits it, it's the arrogant pinhead that just shines everyone on & does what he damned well pleases. I make mistakes all the time, & I prefer to work with a guy that doesn't "know it all" but is Learning All The Time. I might get flamed for that last remark, but I've never found a mechanic that is 100% perfect, all of the time.

Anyway, keep that in mind about whomever you choose to work on your car. It doesn't mean that you have to "look over their shoulder at every move", but if he doesn't do something that the two of you have previously agreed to, then you have every right to question him as to why. If his response is reasonable & makes sense, then you've probably got a "keeper".

[swordfish]

hi Craig,

I'm really hanging out to hear how the car comes out after the work man.

Hope it all works real good.

Let us all know.

swordfish

[CanadaCraig]

Hi Threadcutter!! :)

I hope you're OK.

You said, "....... I prefer to work with a guy that doesn't "know it all" but is Learning All The Time."

So do I. "Know it alls" always 'Know LESS than everyone else!" [at least that's been my experience] And that's true no matter what it is they THINK they know. They're frustrating people to deal with. And if you ever DO get through to them that MAYBE they didn't 'know it all' - it's very unlikely that they will EVER admit it. Psychological baggage is fine with a friend. When you love someone you tolerate their little quirks. But I don't want to have to deal with the insecurities of some guy I've HIRED to do a JOB. And you just know that with a 'know it all' - if there is a problem - it's going to be an uphill battle to first get them to admit it and then to fix it.

Hi swordfish!! :)

I hope you're OK - too.

Thanks for the message. My car is STILL at the dealers. It's been 8 days now. But that's not too unusual. The Lexus guy I deal with knows I don't really care when I get my car back - so he takes his time. Besides - I've been driving a very nice 2004 ES330!! [you can read the 'MY IMPESSIONS' message over on the ES board - if you like] He's also trying to get as much work covered by the warranty as possible. [i bought a warranty when I bought my car] So far - he's managed to get about $1,100 worth of work covered by the warranty. [new lower ball joints and a new power steering pump - to name just two things] He's suggesting I drive the car before replacing the struts and coil springs. [to make sure it performs as I would like] Not sure what I want to do there. It will be about $1,500 to do the struts and coils. Hmm.....

I'll let you know how everything turns out.

I appreciate the support.

Craig!! :)

[CanadaCraig]

UPDATE

Hi Guys!! :)

In spite of the happy face - I'm not really smiling.

My car now has the following new parts.

2 new O2 Sensors [the front ones]

2 new distributor caps

2 new rotors

2 new lower ball joints

1 new PCV Valve

1 new power steering pump

1 new positive battery terminal

1 new hose clamp for heater control valve [very exciting]

Plus new oil and filter and brake fluid. [which I'll talk about in a bit]

Total cost: $2,638.93

The warranty my car has covered $1,189.67 of that 'Total Cost'.

My cost: $1,449.26

Ouch!!

A lot of good things were done though. The PS Pump was leaking and starting to drip on the alternator. The alternator was still fine so they cleaned it up after the PS Pump was installed.

The two lower ball joints had some 'play' in them so it was good that they were changed.

I don't think it hurt to have the PVC valve and the distributor caps/rotors changed either. [considering all of those parts were 'originals']

Same goes for the 2 front O2 Sensors.

OK. So that's the positive side of this message. What's not so good is the fact the car still performs exactly as it did BEFORE I brought it in. [although it does seem to steer a bit better] In other words - it STILL [when accelerated hard] hesitates, feels like the brakes are on [as if something is holding it back - in other words] and takes 12 to 13 seconds to reach 60 MPH. [and REALLY takes its time to reach 100 MPH - just as it always has] Every now and then [just as before] the car accelerates beautifully. And I mean beautifully. Which only serves to frustrate me more - because I KNOW what my car is SUPPOSED to feel like.

What bothers me most of all is that the fact that the service manager didn't DO [or have done] everything I asked him to do. This - in spite of the fact that I made a point of specifically telling him about two things that I absolutely wanted done to my car. I made it as clear as possible. He looked me straight in the eyes and said, "YES - I WILL GET THOSE THINGS DONE!!". One of those things had to do with the brake fluid. I've read - here at LOC - that when bleeding the brakes - the TRAC system and ABS system should be bled TOO. I told the service manager that. In fact - I think I told him 3 times. Did they do it? NO. Oh sure - they bled the brakes but didn't touch the TRAC or ABS bleed screws. [which means the fluid in those two things is the same that came from the factory - more or less] But more importantly than that [yeah - I know - I'm bitching - but just let me get this off my chest!!] is the throttle body. I specifically said that I want the ENTIRE THROTTLE BODY CLEANED. I went on at length about how I wanted it to look like 'new' inside. About how I wanted both sides of both 'butterflies' to be perfectly clean. How I wanted the throttle cable checked and for them to make sure that when the gas pedal is on the floor - EVERYTHING [butterfly wise] is as it should be. [and that nothing is sticking, etc.] I even typed out what I wanted done to my car and put that part in big bold letters. [on a paper that I handed him] Was it done? NO. It wasn't even looked at. Grrrr........

:chairshot:

On the 'bill' there is a work order that states: "SERVICE THROTTLE BODY COMPLETELY". The response from the mechanic was: "THERE IS NO SERVICE FOR THROTTLE BODY". And that's it. I guess he moved on to changing the PCV Valve. But you know - I don't want to sound mean or to be mean - but am I wrong in thinking that maybe the mechanic isn't all that bright? Wouldn't even a half-wit mechanic at least WONDER why he has been asked to do something that can't be done? [or that isn't listed in the Lexus 'services' book] Wouldn't he at least wonder WHY the customer is under the impression that there might be something wrong with the throttle body? I just don't get it. Stupid is as stupid does - I guess. [opps - that wasn't very nice - was it?! lol]

And the mechanic also doesn't understand the concept behind an intermittent problem. If you say that you are having an intermittent problem with something [my remote keys not always working - in this case] and they work when HE tries them - he simply states: "NO PROBLEM FOUND!!" Grrr.......

:chairshot:

Oh well.......

Hard to feel TOO sorry for myself - especially now that I know poor Curt is dealing with a damaged 93 LS. [sorry Curt]

Thanks for reading all of the above. I appreciate it. AND I appreciate all of the help.

Just one last simple question.

IS it possible that a dirty throttle body COULD be holding my car back - acceleration wise?!

Everything else has been looked at and/or replaced with new.

Have a great day.

Craig!!

[nc211]

Craig, for $1449 bucks, you've got every single right to !Removed!! I'm wondering if the throttle body cleaning is an "unofficial" lexus repair, and the tech couldn't find it in his manual. I'm sure those guys have to function "in the box" and probably aren't allowed to do anything that isn't expressly written in the repair manual issued by lexus corporate. One thing that you might consider is the seafoam in the brake-booster line trick to clean out the egr and throttle body? I haven't done it yet myself, but it's on my list of to-do's soon. I did clean out the throttle body a couple months ago with a dremel tool, and yes, it did make a big difference in the acceleration of the car. I'm going to do the seafoam in everything soon to clean up the engine. I've got it in my gas tank now, and I can tell the throttle is more touchy now, and willing to wind-up the engine seems a little easier. I think the winter gas down here dirties up the injectors quicker than the summer fuel.

Anyway, I"m sorry to hear about your frustration, I totally understand it!!! I'm wondering if it's not in the fuel filter, injectors dirty, reduced compression due to dirty engine components or exhaust.

[Threadcutter]

Craig

On the 'bill' there is a work order that states: "SERVICE THROTTLE BODY COMPLETELY". The response from the mechanic was: "THERE IS NO SERVICE FOR THROTTLE BODY". And that's it. I guess he moved on to changing the PCV Valve. But you know - I don't want to sound mean or to be mean - but am I wrong in thinking that maybe the mechanic isn't all that bright? Wouldn't even a half-wit mechanic at least WONDER why he has been asked to do something that can't be done? [or that isn't listed in the Lexus 'services' book] Wouldn't he at least wonder WHY the customer is under the impression that there might be something wrong with the throttle body? I just don't get it. Stupid is as stupid does - I guess.

I don't want to sound mean or to be mean - but am I wrong in thinking that maybe the mechanic isn't all that bright?

I'll apologize in advance for being sarcastic. No, he's a very bright fellow, it's you that doesn't understand. The mechanic wants your money and will tell you anything he thinks you want to hear BEFORE he does your work. That includes doing something that he NEVER HAD ANY INTENTION OF DOING................."It's just such a YUCKY Job" & "that idiot customer can't possibly know more than I do about what's good for his car". He moved on to the PCV valve because it was EASY. I had my wife time me, and including removing the new one from the package, it took me 12 SECONDS to completely change my PCV vlave.

Wouldn't even a half-wit mechanic at least WONDER why he has been asked to do something that can't be done? [or that isn't listed in the Lexus 'services' book] Wouldn't he at least wonder WHY the customer is under the impression that there might be something wrong with the throttle body?

No, now you're assuming that he has at least a minimum level of initiative..................

He went after the "low hanging fruit" and left the "tougher" (yeah, right) stuff for some other mechanic at a future date.

As a hobby, I build target rifles. Very, very accurate target rifles. Why do you think I originally got into building them?.......

Right; Gunsmiths. Other gunsmiths. Same story as yours. I asked for very specific things to be done when they built a rifle for me. We sat down & went over the list in advance & they agreed to do everything on the list. When the day came for me to pick up the new rifle from them, only about 2/3rds of the items on the list were done. So, out of frustration, I purchased a lathe, a milling machine & all the tools I require to do the job right. Now, my rifles regularly beat their rifles in compettion. It's NOT because I do anything magical. it's because I do everything with the utmost of care & correctly, hopefully the first time. If I screw something up, I own up to it, correct it, learn from it & get on with life.

I'm sure you remember this one;

http://us.lexusownersclub.com/forums/index...ndpost&p=181600

Now I'll apologize for being nasty. Your mechanic is a doorknob...... a lazy doorknob. He has used the "Easter Egg" school of "troubleshooting" (for what little actual troubleshooting he did) and low & behold, didn't find anything. Craig, you more than likely have the ability to remove the throttle body, clean it & replace it. If you follow throught & do it yourself, you've now distinguished yourself as smarter than your "mechanic".

[SRK]

Hi Craig, I hope other than having a very much thinner wallet, you are doing well.

Before this thread degenerates into a generalized slagging of people we don't know, I still have some ideas to try on your engine that may eliminate some factors in the low power issue.

Cleaning the throttle body will have no influence on maximum power. If the engine can attain and hold a smooth hot idle, and has a good "bump up" in the cold idle speed, throttle body deposits are probably not present. Throttle body deposits are an INDUSTRY WIDE concern, because crankcase gases are always added to the upstream side, and those gases condense and harden at the point of greatest restriction, which is the throttle blade when it is nearest the throttle bore. Most cars will experience it when they age. Using synthetic oils tends to decrease the rate of accumulation because of their greater stability.

Hopefully we'll talk soon.

[CanadaCraig]

Hi nc211!! :)

I hope you're OK. I appreciate the reply.

I've never seen 'seafoam'. [but then - I've never looked for it] Not sure how putting something in the brake-booster line could have an effect on the throttle body. [but then - what do I know] Unless you mean the 'seafoam' that's MEANT for the brake system being used on the throttle body. [see - I am confused] Is 'seafoam' safe for O2 Sensors, etc.? Why did you clean your throttle body? Was it just something to do or were you having also having acceleration problems? The injectors on my car were thoroughly cleaned [three time - I was told] last year. It didn't have any effect on how the car performed. I'm trying to apply logic to all of this. [i'll say more about that a message to follow] It's very frustrating - that's for sure. Trouble is - I've invested so much money into my car NOW that I can't give up on it. [at least not yet] Then again - sometimes I think to myself, "Get rid of both cars and buy yourself a deluxe bus pass!!" AS for the fuel filter - that was changed. And apparently the exhaust system [including 'cats'] are fine. Never in a billion years would I [knowingly] buy a car that takes 12 to 13 seconds to reach 60 mph - but that's what I bought!! :(

Thanks again.

Craig!! :)