Please Do Me A Favour

[CanadaCraig]

As I'm running out the door....

I forgot to ask.

WHAT does a torque converter DO?! [and how could that be the problem?]

Thanks,

Craig!! :)

[ArmyofOne]

Thanks Mick, ArmyofOne, SRK and kcpth!! :)

I appreciate the input.

Just a quick note this time. [i should be somewhere else - but I'm late as usual!!]

Would the fact that my car REVS freely - out of gear - support SRK's belief that the engine itself is NOT the problem? Sounds logical enough - but I just want to double [and triple] check EVERYTHING before I march into the dealership on Thursday!!

You can click on THIS to go BACK to my little Lexus movie page and see and hear my Lexus rev. The slight delay at the beginning of the 'rev' is caused by ME being gentle on the pedal - at first. But it revs up to the redline very quickly. [even from idle]

And SRK - would it be OK with you if I 'name-dropped' your name at the dealership? I'd like to be able to say "a guy I talk to on the net - who just bought another Lexus from YOU GUYS - thinks that the problem is NOT the engine or with the gas but perhaps has something to do with the throttle linkage, cats, torque convertor or maybe even the traction control throttle plate being stuck partially closed." IF that's NOT OK with you - please let me know before noon tomorrow!! [and I know that others have made some of the same suggestions - but because SRK actually goes to the dealership I'm going to - it might give those suggestions a bit more weight]

Thanks again,

WISH ME LUCK!!

Craig!! :)

ps And by the way - SRK - congratulations on your 'new' car!! :D

pps Now I'm REALLY late!! lol

←

im leaning towards the tyhrottle linkage myself, it sounds like its revving completely fine, your engine is not the problem here, as SRK pointed out. i am a shadetree mechanic, you can use my name if you think it will help. Pm me and ill give it to you if you want it. they have never heard of me so i doubt it wil help, but let me know. on thefirst rev...did you not put the pedal down evenly? is that why the rev was weird?

on the second one it sounds superb.

[ArmyofOne]

As I'm running out the door....

I forgot to ask.

WHAT does a torque converter DO?! [and how could that be the problem?]

Thanks,

Craig!! :)

←

a tourque converter is basically a clutch for an auto trans...but they are quite different actually. the TQ converter does the same thing a clutch does, excet it does it autmoatically, without you haveing to push the gas pedal.

according to HowStuffWorks.com:

The torque converter is situated between the engine

and the transmission.

A torque converter is a type of fluid coupling, which allows the engine to spin somewhat independently of the transmission. If the engine is turning slowly, such as when the car is idling at a stoplight, the amount of torque passed through the torque converter is very small, so keeping the car still requires only a light pressure on the brake pedal.

If you were to step on the gas pedal while the car is stopped, you would have to press harder on the brake to keep the car from moving. This is because when you step on the gas, the engine speeds up and pumps more fluid into the torque converter, causing more torque to be transmitted to the wheels.

there are four components inside the very strong housing of the torque converter:

Pump

Turbine

Stator

Transmission fluid

The parts of a torque converter (left to right): turbine, stator, pump

The housing of the torque converter is bolted to the flywheel of the engine, so it turns at whatever speed the engine is running at. The fins that make up the pump of the torque converter are attached to the housing, so they also turn at the same speed as the engine. The cutaway below shows how everything is connected inside the torque converter.

The pump inside a torque converter is a type of centrifugal pump. As it spins, fluid is flung to the outside, much as the spin cycle of a washing machine flings water and clothes to the outside of the wash tub. As fluid is flung to the outside, a vacuum is created that draws more fluid in at the center.

The fluid then enters the blades of the turbine, which is connected to the transmission. The turbine causes the transmission to spin, which basically moves your car. You can see in the graphic below that the blades of the turbine are curved. This means that the fluid, which enters the turbine from the outside, has to change direction before it exits the center of the turbine. It is this directional change that causes the turbine to spin.

**The torque converter turbine: Note the spline in the middle. This is where it connects to the transmission**

In order to change the direction of a moving object, you must apply a force to that object -- it doesn't matter if the object is a car or a drop of fluid. And whatever applies the force that causes the object to turn must also feel that force, but in the opposite direction. So as the turbine causes the fluid to change direction, the fluid causes the turbine to spin.

The fluid exits the turbine at the center, moving in a different direction than when it entered. If you look at the arrows in the figure above, you can see that the fluid exits the turbine moving opposite the direction that the pump (and engine) are turning. If the fluid were allowed to hit the pump, it would slow the engine down, wasting power. This is why a torque converter has a stator.

**The stator sends the fluid returning from the turbine to the pump. This improves the efficiency of the torque converter. Note the spline, which is connected to a one-way clutch inside the stator.**

The stator resides in the very center of the torque converter. Its job is to redirect the fluid returning from the turbine before it hits the pump again. This dramatically increases the efficiency of the torque converter.

The stator has a very aggressive blade design that almost completely reverses the direction of the fluid. A one-way clutch (inside the stator) connects the stator to a fixed shaft in the transmission (the direction that the clutch allows the stator to spin is noted in the figure above). Because of this arrangement, the stator cannot spin with the fluid -- it can spin only in the opposite direction, forcing the fluid to change direction as it hits the stator blades.

Something a little bit tricky happens when the car gets moving. There is a point, around 40 mph (64 kph), at which both the pump and the turbine are spinning at almost the same speed (the pump always spins slightly faster). At this point, the fluid returns from the turbine, entering the pump already moving in the same direction as the pump, so the stator is not needed.

Even though the turbine changes the direction of the fluid and flings it out the back, the fluid still ends up moving in the direction that the turbine is spinning because the turbine is spinning faster in one direction than the fluid is being pumped in the other direction. If you were standing in the back of a pickup moving at 60 mph, and you threw a ball out the back of that pickup at 40 mph, the ball would still be going forward at 20 mph. This is similar to what happens in the turbine: The fluid is being flung out the back in one direction, but not as fast as it was going to start with in the other direction.

At these speeds, the fluid actually strikes the back sides of the stator blades, causing the stator to freewheel on its one-way clutch so it doesn't hinder the fluid moving through it.

Benefits and Weak Points

In addition to the very important job of allowing your car come to a complete stop without stalling the engine, the torque converter actually gives your car more torque when you accelerate out of a stop. Modern torque converters can multiply the torque of the engine by two to three times. This effect only happens when the engine is turning much faster than the transmission.

At higher speeds, the transmission catches up to the engine, eventually moving at almost the same speed. Ideally, though, the transmission would move at exactly the same speed as the engine, because this difference in speed wastes power. This is part of the reason why cars with automatic transmissions get worse gas mileage than cars with manual transmissions.

To counter this effect, some cars have a torque converter with a lockup clutch. When the two halves of the torque converter get up to speed, this clutch locks them together, eliminating the slippage and improving efficiency.

so im thinking, put it in D and let your foot of of the brake. on level ground, does the car creep forward?

[KY350]

Craig - sorry about the slow response, but i timed my car to 100km/h (by counting as my watch does not have a seconds hand) and I counted to about 9s. I have a 91LS

[CanadaCraig]

Once again - I really appreciate all the help!!

Hi ArmyofOne!! :)

On the first 'rev' - I hesitated. The second rev is how it always sounds. I appreciate the offer of allowing me to use your name - but an oportunity to throw 'names' around didn't come up. I appreciate the info on the torque converter - too. Thank you. We often think of the Beethovens of the world as being geniuses - but whoever invented the torque converter is obviously pretty darn smart. As for 'creeping forward' - yes it does. [but it's supposed - isn't it?!]

Hi KY350!! :)

I appreciate you taking the time to see just how quickly your car gets up to 100 kph - AND for letting me know the results. All of this helps!!

AN UPDATE

I brought my car in yesterday. [as most of you know] A Lexus 'tech' and I went for a drive. [he drove] He noticed the lack of power. He tested the torque converter. That was fun - I felt like a punk as the rear tires screached while we were stopped at a light!! [not only did I feel half my age - but half as smart - too!!] He didn't feel anything was wrong with either the torque converter or catalytic converters. [based on the test drive] He said that a smooth rev out of gear doesn't really prove anything because it takes relatively little fuel to rev an engine out of gear. He thought it was particularily slow off the line but felt that it was ok once it got going. I suggested to him that is was still slower than it should be. It was odd being in the passenger seat. I think it was probaby the first time I've been in a car and NOT behind the wheel - in YEARS!!

They still have my car. I got a phone call today letting me know that the problem seems to be the fuel pump. When they 'pinched' the fuel line - in an attempt to force the fuel pump to work harder - it didn't. Also - the fuel pump filter [i.e. 'sock'?] was quite dirty. A new pump is on order. Might get it tomorrow. [saturday] Wouldn't it be odd if I was right all along - and the problem WAS caused by 'bad gas'? If I do end up being right - I'm not sure how I'm going to handle that!! lol Oh well.. there is still plenty of time to prove me wrong. [and I'm sure they're working on THAT as we speak!!]

In the meantime - I have a nice silver with black leather 2002 Lexus ES300 to drive. Not sure I like the looks of the car - but it's very nice to drive. And the leather is so soft. [can't make my leather that soft - can I?!]

Thanks again.

I will keep you all posted.

Craig!! :)

[KY350]

Hope it is the fuel pump / filter and you can get to the bottom of this Craig. I suspect that once the problem is fixed, you may spend a little more time acting half your age!!!!

Good luck.

[ArmyofOne]

Once again - I really appreciate all the help!!

Hi ArmyofOne!! :)

On the first 'rev' - I hesitated. The second rev is how it always sounds. I appreciate the offer of allowing me to use your name - but an oportunity to throw 'names' around didn't come up. I appreciate the info on the torque converter - too. Thank you. We often think of the Beethovens of the world as being geniuses - but whoever invented the torque converter is obviously pretty darn smart. As for 'creeping forward' - yes it does. [but it's supposed - isn't it?!]

Hi KY350!! :)

I appreciate you taking the time to see just how quickly your car gets up to 100 kph - AND for letting me know the results.  All of this helps!!

AN UPDATE

I brought my car in yesterday. [as most of you know] A Lexus 'tech' and I went for a drive. [he drove] He noticed the lack of power. He tested the torque converter. That was fun - I felt like a punk as the rear tires screached while we were stopped at a light!! [not only did I feel half my age - but half as smart - too!!]  He didn't feel anything was wrong with either the torque converter or catalytic converters. [based on the test drive] He said that a smooth rev out of gear doesn't really prove anything because it takes relatively little fuel to rev an engine out of gear. He thought it was particularily slow off the line but felt that it was ok once it got going. I suggested to him that is was still slower than it should be. It was odd being in the passenger seat. I think it was probaby the first time I've been in a car and NOT behind the wheel  - in YEARS!!

They still have my car. I got a phone call today letting me know that the problem seems to be the fuel pump. When they 'pinched' the fuel line - in an attempt to force the fuel pump to work harder - it didn't. Also - the fuel pump filter [i.e. 'sock'?] was quite dirty. A new pump is on order. Might get it tomorrow. [saturday] Wouldn't it be odd if I was right all along - and the problem WAS caused by 'bad gas'? If I do end up being right - I'm not sure how I'm going to handle that!! lol Oh well.. there is still plenty of time to prove me wrong. [and I'm sure they're working on THAT as we speak!!]

In the meantime - I have a nice silver with black leather 2002 Lexus ES300 to drive. Not sure I like the looks of the car - but it's very nice to drive. And the leather is so soft. [can't make my leather that soft - can I?!]

Thanks again.

I will keep you all posted.

Craig!! :)

←

Yes Craig, it is supposed to creep forward. thats a good thing. :)

It doesnt take as much power to rev an engine when not in gear, but it does still take some. A major internal issue with the engine will usually surface revving out of gear as well as when in gear.

The tech was right on the money. While it may have seemed like he was only looking for an excuse to do a few burnouts, he in fact is testing the torque converter the only way it can be tested without removal. The TQ Converter is not your issue.

Usually a dead or dying fuel pump will cause hesitation, or stumbles, not a smooth transition from low power to normal power, however it is not unheard of.

This tech sounds like he knows his stuff (and he had better for what you are likely to be paying him). Unfortunately, the fuel pump on most cars is in the fuel tank, and that requires you to drop it, which in turn means labor and more $$.

I would count on no less than $300 USD Parts and Labor for this repair, and thats a low-ball estimate from me.

more than likely, the problem originated with the bad gas, it just tooka little while to surface. when you go back, ak the tech if this sort of fuel pump failure can be caused by fuel varnish. if he says yes (and my hunch is he will) go and buy a can of slick 50 and put it through your fuel system like i originally suggested. this will help clean out some of the varnish.

[ArmyofOne]

*bump*

any update craig?

[UCF3]

Hi UCF3!! :)

My 1993 LS400 only has about 68,000 miles. So I would hope that an engine-rebuild is NOT in the cards!! I'll talk to my dealer about the torque converter. Thanks.

I genuinely appreciate all the help. Any other thoughts? PLEASE don't hesitate to share them with me.

Craig!! :)

←

Sorry for the delayed response. I believe there's a way to increase and decrease the TQ Converter. I remember Cureline.net writing something about it. When the site is back up, you can check it out.

BTW I never asked you if you had any pipe or oil leaks.

[ArmyofOne]

Hi UCF3!! :)

My 1993 LS400 only has about 68,000 miles. So I would hope that an engine-rebuild is NOT in the cards!! I'll talk to my dealer about the torque converter. Thanks.

I genuinely appreciate all the help. Any other thoughts? PLEASE don't hesitate to share them with me.

Craig!! :)

←

Sorry for the delayed response. I believe there's a way to increase and decrease the TQ Converter. I remember Cureline.net writing something about it. When the site is back up, you can check it out.

BTW I never asked you if you had any pipe or oil leaks.

←

I brought my car in yesterday. [as most of you know] A Lexus 'tech' and I went for a drive. [he drove] He noticed the lack of power. He tested the torque converter. That was fun - I felt like a punk as the rear tires screached while we were stopped at a light!! [not only did I feel half my age - but half as smart - too!!]  He didn't feel anything was wrong with either the torque converter or catalytic converters.

he said that the mechanic said it wasnt a problem LOL. seems to be the fuel pump..that i would believe, definately not a TQ conv at 68Kmiles.

[CanadaCraig]

Hi KY350!! :)

Thanks!! I hope so too. If 'things' are NOT 'fixed' THIS time - then I don't know what I'll do. [because everything would have been tested or replaced - insofar as the fuel system is concerned] As for acting half my age - I'd love that. I'm 41 now - so acting 20.5 [!!] would be great. [and still legal!!] And considering the fact that I was 30 when I was born - it will be a whole new experience for me. :D

Hi UCF3!! :)

The Torque Converter seems to be OK and there has been no mention of oil or pipe leaks. But who knows. I'm actually a bit nervous about all this. [a lot nervous - in fact] I hope they really DO know what they're doing. Quite a few times now I've pick up my car only to discover that whatever they did had no positive effect on the car AT ALL. Keep your fingers crossed for me - OK? [and that goes for the rest of you too!! lol]

Hi ArmyofOne!! :)

Any updates? Well... I think so. [i hope so!!] They still have my car. [and I still have theirs!!] Did you know that putting miles on someone else's car is considerably easier to do than putting miles on your own car?! lol

The guy who I was dealing with - was home sick on Saturday. But I talked to the lady who was taking over for him. SHE said that they are going all the way on this. ["the whole nine yards"] Apparently [and I'll believe it when I see it - so to speak] they have removed the gas tank and sent if off to be cleaned. She said that they are going through the entire fuel system with a fine tooth comb - making sure everything is as it should be. [again - we'll see] I really hope this is it. It really bothers me to drive a 4.0 litre 250 h.p. ANYTHING that can't beat a 4 cylinder Automatic Ford Tempo.

As an aside - I can't help but think that the fuel pump was probably OK - but just really clogged up. That would seem to make more sense - considering how smoothly the engine revved, etc. Oh well.....

How much is all this going to cost?!

[suddenly - I'm not feeling very well!!] lol

Thanks again.

Craig!! :)

[ArmyofOne]

Hi KY350!! :)

Thanks!! I hope so too. If 'things' are NOT 'fixed' THIS time - then I don't know what I'll do. [because everything would have been tested or replaced - insofar as the fuel system is concerned] As for acting half my age - I'd love that. I'm 41 now - so acting 20.5 [!!] would be great. [and still legal!!] And considering the fact that I was 30 when I was born - it will be a whole new experience for me. :D

Hi UCF3!! :)

The Torque Converter seems to be OK and there has been no mention of oil or pipe leaks. But who knows. I'm actually a bit nervous about all this. [a lot nervous - in fact] I hope they really DO  know what they're doing. Quite a few times now I've pick up my car only to discover that whatever they did had no positive effect on the car AT ALL. Keep  your fingers crossed for me - OK? [and that goes for the rest of you too!! lol]

Hi ArmyofOne!! :)

Any updates? Well... I think so. [i hope so!!] They still have my car. [and I still have theirs!!] Did you know that putting miles on someone else's car is considerably easier to do than putting miles on your own car?! lol

The guy who I was dealing with - was home sick on Saturday. But I talked to the lady who was taking over for him. SHE said that they are going all the way on this. ["the whole nine yards"] Apparently [and I'll believe it when I see it - so to speak] they have removed the gas tank and sent if off to be cleaned. She said that they are going through the entire fuel system with a fine tooth comb - making sure everything is as it should be. [again - we'll see] I really hope this is it. It really bothers me to drive a 4.0 litre 250 h.p. ANYTHING that can't beat a 4 cylinder Automatic Ford Tempo.

As an aside - I can't help but think that the fuel pump was probably OK - but just really clogged up. That would seem to make more sense - considering how smoothly the engine revved, etc. Oh well.....

How much is all this going to cost?!

[suddenly - I'm not feeling very well!!] lol

Thanks again.

Craig!! :)

←

the entire fuel system? i have no idea how much that woudl cost. i would count on around $1,000. the gas tank cleaning cost alot.

ANYTHING that can't beat a 4 cylinder Automatic Ford Tempo.

i had a 5 speed ford contour w/ a 4 cylinder that (when stock) would kick the socks off of most stock LS's. ;) close enough? the LS is a fast car for its size, but its alot slower than most smaller cars. my contour weighed over 1500lbs less than your LS, but it was a 5 speed with about 75hp/Liter (2.0L, 140 HP.)

;)

[CanadaCraig]

Hi ArmyofOne!! :)

[and everyone else]

No new updates - I'm afraid. The dealer STILL has my car. But you would think - at least - that they would have phoned to let me know that they're still working on it. But they didn't. Oh well. A bit rude - I thought. [especially when you consider the fact that I phoned home every half hour after 2 pm to see if they left any messages] But... what can you do.

How much is all this going to cost? I don't know. But I've left a note with Santa telling him that it might be a lean Christmas at MY house. [maybe milk - but probably no cookies]

The Ford Tempo I was referring to was one of the first ones. [like a 1984 model] Those Tempo's [and Mercury Topaz's] had a 2.3 litre 4 cylinder that produced a heart-stopping [lol] 84 h.p. OH BABY!! Team that with an automatic and have it beat my LS in a race - and I'm sure you'll understand WHY that was so upsetting to me!! lol The Contour/Mystique was a more up-level car than the Tempo/Topaz.

As an aside - I'm going to miss the ES300 I'm driving!!

Craig!! :)

[ArmyofOne]

Hi ArmyofOne!! :)

[and everyone else]

No new updates - I'm afraid. The dealer STILL has my car. But you would think - at least - that they would have phoned to let me know that they're still working on it. But they didn't. Oh well. A bit rude - I thought. [especially when you consider the fact that I phoned home every half hour after 2 pm to see if they left any messages] But... what can you do.

How much is all this going to cost? I don't know. But I've left a note with Santa telling him that it might be a lean Christmas at MY house. [maybe milk - but probably no cookies]

The Ford Tempo I was referring to was one of the first ones. [like a 1984 model] Those Tempo's [and Mercury Topaz's] had a 2.3 litre 4 cylinder that produced a heart-stopping [lol] 84 h.p. OH BABY!! Team that with an automatic and have it beat my LS in a race - and I'm sure you'll understand WHY that was so upsetting to me!! lol The Contour/Mystique was a more up-level car than the Tempo/Topaz.

As an aside - I'm going to miss the ES300 I'm driving!!

Craig!! :)

←

ah yes, the gen I tempo, an american classic

i can see why that woudl upset you, IIRC that car had an estimated 0-60 of 14.6 seconds in an auto version...damn, thats slow...

on topic: its not unusual for dealers to not phoen while they have your car to let you knwo they still have it. its something not many people think about, they figure "he must know we have it, its not at his house" :D

seriously, its not a custom to call unless there is another problem. although daily updates would be nice, there is no written rule that requiers them.

it will be ok.

[CanadaCraig]

Hi ArmyofOne!! :)

[and anyone else still reading this!!]

Finally got my car back. [yesterday] It's quite a bit better. In fact - it's surprisingly more powerful. [when 'pushed'] I'm quite pleased. Far too wet and windy to do any 0 to 100 kph 'tests' - but even if it's not any quicker [and I suspect that it is] the fact that the car actually accelerates when I want it too - without hesitating - is SO NICE. Do you know how I first knew that it was finally fixed? [and I think it's safe to say that - even though I usually like to wait a bit longer before being so bold] I was about half way through a long drive - last night - when it dawned on me that I was NOT thinking about it. Usually - the lack of appropriate responses to the gas pedel kept reminding me [over and over again] that there was indeed a problem. I'll keep an 'eye' on it and give one more update in the next couple of days. The interior of the car DOES smell of gas [for a few seconds] when I first get into it - but apparently that's normal when a fuel pump is replaced and the smell should go away in a few days. [so I was told]

They didn't actually remove the gas tank [as I was lead to believe by the 'lady' who was taking over for my 'usual guy'] but they did [so they said] examine the contents of the tank very closely. Everything looked fine. [so that's good] But I suppose it should be fine - considering all of the gas that I've poured into it since first getting it. I saw the old fuel pump. The 'sock' really was dirty. The pump itself [when tested by 'pinching the fuel lines to see how it would respond] would increase in pressure and then quickly decrease again. It was unable to meet the demands of accelerating hard. [so I was told] This certainly makes sense when I think of how annoying the car WAS [!!] when I was trying to go FAST.

Fingers crossed that my LS will continue to impress.

Now... what about those struts?! lol :P

I truly appreciate all the help.

Craig!! :)

[ArmyofOne]

Hi ArmyofOne!! :)

[and anyone else still reading this!!]

Finally got my car back. [yesterday] It's quite a bit better. In fact - it's surprisingly more powerful. [when 'pushed'] I'm quite pleased. Far too wet and windy to do any 0 to 100 kph 'tests' - but even if it's not any quicker [and I suspect that it is] the fact that the car actually accelerates when I want it too - without hesitating - is SO NICE. Do you know how I first knew that it was finally fixed? [and I think it's safe to say that - even though I usually like to wait a bit longer before being so bold] I was about half way through a long drive - last night - when it dawned on me that I was NOT thinking about it. Usually - the lack of appropriate responses to the gas pedel kept reminding me [over and over again] that there was indeed a problem. I'll keep an 'eye' on it and give one more update in the next couple of days. The interior of the car DOES smell of gas [for a few seconds] when I first get into it - but apparently that's normal when a fuel pump is replaced and the smell should go away in a few days. [so I was told]

They didn't actually remove the gas tank [as I was lead to believe by the 'lady' who was taking over for my 'usual guy'] but they did [so they said] examine the contents of the tank very closely. Everything looked fine. [so that's good]  But I suppose it should be fine - considering all of the gas that I've poured into it since first getting it. I saw the old fuel pump. The 'sock' really was dirty. The pump itself [when tested by 'pinching the fuel lines to see how it would respond] would increase in pressure and then quickly decrease again. It was unable to meet the demands of accelerating hard. [so I was told] This certainly makes sense when I think of how annoying the car WAS [!!] when I was trying to go FAST. 

Fingers crossed that my LS will continue to impress.

Now... what about those struts?! lol :P

I truly appreciate all the help.

Craig!! :)

←

glad to hear you got it sorted out. thanks for the update.

run a can of fuel system cleaner and some premium (you probably run premium anyway) gas after a few hunderd miles, see how she does.

[KY350]

Glad to hear that the acceleration problem is fixed.

Now go find a Ford Temp to race just to make sure!

[CanadaCraig]

:(

Oh no....

Hi Guys!! :(

Well... I tested my car last night and it is - in fact - no quicker than before. It still takes 12 to 13 seconds to reach 100 kph. [and 17 to reach 120 kph] It DOES seem to feel better when NOT trying to get the most out of it [unless - of course - that's just wishful thinking] but the bottom line is - it's the same disappointing car - power wise. [yeah - I know - this seems to go against what I said in my last update - but what are you going to do] And that - I'm afraid - IS the question. What AM I going to do. The 'Lexus guy' [who is still waiting for me to tell him IF I think the car is better now - as I am waiting on him to tell me just how much all of this is going to cost me] had everything checked. They even compared my car directly - as in side-by-side - with another same year LS. Both were equally fast. [or slow - I suppose - depending on how you look at it] Chances are - the engine - the fuel system, etc. are fine. How could they not be - everything has been either replaced and/or checked. So what now? [if anything] I'm not sure I feel like going back to the dealer. THEY think everything is OK. [and why wouldn't they] Now I'm just 'the complainer'.

Maybe I'm just not an LS kinda guy. Might as well buy a Honda Civic. Would get up to 100 kph faster [then MY car] and get nearly twice the gas mileage. :(

I'm lost. Any ideas? Should I just forget it and learn to live with it?! Should I get rid of the car? [somehow] What would you do? [if anything]

Thanks again,

Craig

[RFeldes]

Hi Craig,

Sorry to hear the news but I would try what Armyofone suggests and get the additive for a couple of tank fills and then see. I also would ask a friend to follow me to a highway and compare 100kmh speed. If your speedo is off that would make a significant difference. That's why they use the wheelie speedo on test runs.

[ArmyofOne]

Hi Craig,

Sorry to hear the news but I would try what Armyofone suggests and get the additive for a couple of tank fills and then see. I also would ask a friend to follow me to a highway and compare 100kmh speed. If your speedo is off that would make a significant difference. That's why they use the wheelie speedo on test runs.

←

you have a PM craig

[KY350]

Craig - RFelds makes a good point about speedo inaccuracy. If your LS does not show any engine check lights on the dash and it accelerates as well as other 1991 models and it sounds good doing it, then perhaps it is just your speedo that is inaccurate.

The fact that you cannot beat the Tempo is a worry, but are you sure that it was not a modified Tempo that is as quick as the LS?

Again, If you know of another early 1990's LS owner near you, go perform a few side by side runs yourself. Check both the speedo and tacho readouts at predefined speeds in each gear against the other LS.

Alternatively, if you do not know any other LS owners near you, then get a few friends together and race against their cars. As long as the other car is slightly slower than yours, and you know how long the other car is supposed to take to get to 100km/h, then you can compare its time / speed with your LS. It is preferable to do this test against another auto, so as to eliminate any driver skill / or lack of, to gain a true representation of your cars acceleration capability.

Finally, perhaps someone on this board can tell you what rpms your car should be doing in 2nd gear when it accelerates to 100km/h (about 62mph) flat out from standstill. I am assuming that the tacho reading is accurate for this test and does not give an inaccurate reading to match an inaccurate speedo display.

Good luck.

[obergc]

It's a little difficult to make a direct comparison between my 93LS and Craigs because his speedo is in KMPH and mine is MPH but in comparing his Tach vs Speedo reading and mine they are pretty darn close, approx 4700 rpm in second gear at 60 MPH. The difference between Craigs car and mine is that mine is getting to 60 in under 10 sec. I can't verify the accuracy of my speedo under hard acceleration at 60 MPH but I can say that Craigs compares very close to mine when also factoring in the engine rpm.

[SRK]

Speedometer accuracy is not a concern. The speedo gets its signal from the same source used for the ABS, and traction control system. Its reliability is unquestionable. Larger or smaller tires than standard will change it, but if there is no ABS or Trac failure light, the speedo is accurate.

As I said before, no amount of injector cleaner is going to help this one. As Craig has stated, the fuel system in his car is now perfectly clean, and as I stated, the engine runs without misfire and sounds normal. Something else is preventing it from achieving full power while operating smoothly on all eight cylinders.

From this distance Craig, it is now very hard to tell what that might be.

[Lex3486]

Well, I don't own an LS400, but I have driven a 94 LS and quite frankly wasn't as impressed with the acceleration as I thought I'd be for a 250hp V8...but, also consider that I was highly new to the car and only drove it for a very short while PLUS I didn't know about the button under the pedal so...but anyway, just by looking at the video, I notice something peculiar right off. Unless he's brake torquing, then the car seems to take a very very long time between the rpm jump (flooring the throttle) and any change in speed. It's almost as if it were a manual and he were engaging the clutch! (except the RPM's remain constant). I'm not familiar with this engine, but I know that in all my ES's and in my SC, this hasn't happened. The SC is a little sluggish if you slam the pedal down, but nothing like that, and the ES's will just bark the tires and GO. If in fact the car isn't moving, and he doesn't have his foot on the brake, this obviously accounts for why the time is taking so long; that's probalby close to 1.5 seconds right there! Has anyone else not noticed this? Personally, I think that 0-60 testing relies heavily on 3 factors; the conditions in which the car is tested, the condition of the car itself, but perhaps most importantly, the driver. I've seen ordinary cars do some amazing things at the hands of the right driver, and others that are capable of MUCH more do terribly b/c of driver error. I guess just a simple observation, and perhaps a consideration for everyone here. B)

[CanadaCraig]

Thanks RFeldes, KY350, obergc, SRK and Lex3486!! :)

I really appreciate the help.

The Tempo that beat me was bone stock. Nothing to suggest that it had been altered in any way. [even had that 'straw' Ford called an exhaust!!] Besides - it was driven by an older woman. [adding insult to injury!! lol]

The speedometre seems fine. [and even more so - now - when you take what SRK said into consideration] Curt sent me a video of his 93LS gauges. [thanks again - Curt!!] I agree with his observation. At 100 kph - both cars [mine AND Curt's] are in 2nd gear - with the engines spinning at aproximately 4800 RPM.

Below is a comparison of both cars.

The following are aproximates. [but as accurate as I could tell]

[Curt's Car only listed IF I could figure out what was going on!!]

0 to 60 kph - Craig's LS [5 seconds - at 4600 RPM] Curt's LS [also 5 seconds - but at 5200 RPM]

WHY would the RPM be so different?!

0 to 80 kph - Craig's LS [9 seconds] Curt's LS [7 seconds]

Could not tell RPM because both cars change into 2nd gear at that speed.

0 to 100 kph - Craig's LS [12 to 13 seconds] Curt's LS [9 seconds]

0 to 120 kph - Craig's LS [17 to 18 seconds]

80 to 120 kph - Craig's LS [7 seconds]

As another point of reference - the following is for the 2002 ES300 that I had as a courtesy/race car!! lol

0 to 100 kph - 9 seconds

0 to 120 kph - 13 seconds

[i am assuming that - like myself - Curt did NOT 'brake-start' his car. He just 'floored-it' like I did with my car]

My engine DOES sound good - with the sole exception of 'pinging' occasionally. But other than that [and the inability to get up to speed as it should] it seems fine.

Well.. I think I've exhausted both you AND me!! So there you have it.

Any other ideas?

IF any of you have made your own little video of your LS gauges as you get up to speed - I would love to see it.

Please email me at..

nsxboy@shaw.ca

Thanks again,

Craig!! :)