Car Insurance

[Lexus93]

SKperformance who are you insured with.

I live in Toronto and think i'm paying too much.

I'm insured with Certas $1800 year, full coverage

1993 Lexus ES 300. Do you think that's to much??

[jragosta]

SKperformance who are you insured with.

I live in Toronto and think i'm paying too much.

I'm insured with Certas $1800 year, full coverage

1993 Lexus ES 300. Do you think that's to much??

No one can answer that until you fill in your situation. All of the following will affect insurance rates (at least in some areas):

Driving record

Age

Family situation

Address

Distance driven weekly

And more.

Without all that information, it would be meaningless to just compare your rate to someone else's.

Your best bet is to get quotes from several different sources.

[steviej]

in addtion to jragosta's list don't forget that the rate is also dependent upon whether or not the car is bank financed. (at least in MA it is).

steviej

[mburnickas]

The above posts are good but don't foget to add it you have additional policies through the same agent. I use MET life and I pay $700 USA for everything on my lexus. In MA you get like 10% more if you drive like less then 7,500 mile per year.

Don't forget the companies are quick to take your funs but slooooow to give back.

[Lexus93]

I just want to know the company your insured with, so that I

can get a quote from them

My driving record is perfect, highest rating.

Insured for over 10 years

single

My insurance is up for renewal soon

[jragosta]

Don't forget the companies are quick to take your funs but slooooow to give back.

That depends. I've been insured with State Farm for close to 30 years - as has the rest of my family. We've NEVER had a problem getting prompt payment.

To top it off, the last time I checked, we were even paying 10% less than I'd be paying GEICO for the same coverage.

[steviej]

Don't forget the companies are quick to take your funs but slooooow to give back.

I am insured with Plymouth Rock. When my car went into the shop for repair of the damage from the drunk driver, the Plymouth Rock van went to the body shop, assessed the damage, discussed it with the shop, agreed on a total price and generated a signed check right on the spot.

That is the only claim I have had with them so I can only base experience with them on that one instance.

2002 bank financed ES, excellent history/rating, full coverage, highest security allowance, moderately low theft area: $1100/year.

steviej

[mburnickas]

Don't forget the companies are quick to take your funs but slooooow to give back.

That depends. I've been insured with State Farm for close to 30 years - as has the rest of my family. We've NEVER had a problem getting prompt payment.

To top it off, the last time I checked, we were even paying 10% less than I'd be paying GEICO for the same coverage.

Depends on what promptly payments means. I use Metlife and it would take about 1.25 to 2 weeks plus the dreaded car rental etc. That is not prompt in my eyes but maybe for some.

My parents have a local guy and have payment within 2 – 3 days from walking in their door and about 20 minutes less on the phone selecting 1 for english, 2 for spanish, 3 for home, 4 if you are on fire etc. Now that is prompt service. Plus they get the same person and you can understand them.

I do not have State Farm but have heard good things. Sometimes large has advantages and sometimes not. Also sometimes the RMV’s has separate line for these larger companies since it takes longer to do things. Only seen this in CT so far.

Oh, the anti-theft alarms etc are a joke, but if it saves you money get them. If they want the car they will take it.

As I noted many companies supply you with a % off when you add your home, motorcycles and even tractors. So also ask them about these.

Lastly, the only problem with insurance adjusters is sometimes their payment changes like the wind. Plus it depends on what shop you are at and if they know the person working there etc. I have a friend in the auto shop business and my in-laws own garages and the stores about insurance is great to listen too.

Insurance companies primary job is to make money and you come second. Nevermind too many claims will get you kicked off their company or a higher rate

[bdonkersgoed]

Hey, let's not go too hard on the insurance companies!

I actually work in the Actuarial (mathematical pricing) Department of an insurance company here in downtown Toronto. Yes, I agree that the primary goal of an insurance company is to make money . . . but what should it be? To have extremely happy customers get paid more than what they deserve and go bankrupt? I think not. The goal of ANY corporation is to make money, otherwise, who would want to invest in them?!

Anyways, that aside, the insurance company does want to please it's clients. I have had two $10000+ calims in my short lifetime and both have been a pleasure. The goal of an insurance company is to pay you exactly what you lose. When pricing insurance, we match the risks to the prices, and then add a little bit for profit.

Please be aware that the profit from insurance companies is much less now than it was 10 years ago, even though rates have been rapidly increasing. You can blame increasing insurance rates on your governement for not cracking down on insruance fraud. you would be surprised at the staggering amount of insurance fraus in Canada, particularly in the provinces of Ontario and Alberta. Di you know that it takes an Ontario resident more than six times longer to recuperate from an auto accident than it does a resident from British Columbia? Well, that's what the statistics say in recent studies. Now, it is not because Ontarians heal slower than British Columbians, but because they are more dishonest and milk the system for all it's worth. And this is the very reason why insurance in Ontario is so insanely expensive compared to some other provinces of Canada.

Anyways, I hope this was a little bit informative for you guys. The general public is so ill-informed when it comes to insurance . . .

Regards,

Bryan

[bdonkersgoed]

Also, or you Ontarians out there . . . you know, there is a difference between the quality of different insurance companies. Every year, the Financial Services Commission of Ontario conducts a Customer Satisfaction Survery that is available to the public (although 95% of the public are unaware).

Have a look at the claims satisfaction ratings over the last year. How does your insurance company rank? I have always been with the higher ranking companies, and have ALWAYS had a positive experience with my claims. If you go with a cheaper company that has a lower rank, then you are at a bit of a risk if you are to get in an accident.

2003 Financial Services Commision of Ontario Customer Satisfaction Survey

Regards,

Bryan

[bdonkersgoed]

And yes, MANY factors determine the premium you pay. Here are the main ones:

MAIN PRICING FACTORS:

- GENDER: for younger people like myself, males pay nearly double their female friends!

- AGE: you typically fall into one of the pricing categories: 16-19, 19-21, 21-23, 23-25, 25+

- MARITAL STATUS: Being married can affect your insurance a lot! Especially if you are a 20s male, where is ca almost cut your premium in half! Hurry up and tie the knot if you want to save some money :P

- DRIVING RECORD: Most companies allow you one minor ticket. Each subsequent minor ticket will cost you about an extra 10%. Don't get caught with a major offense, as each one will increase your rates by at least 50% (that is, if the company continues to insure you!) The number of years that you are licensed also plays a large role.

- VEHICLE: Obviously, if you drive a rare luxury car that has expensive hard-to-find parts, insurance is going to cost you an arm and a leg compared to a Chevy Cavalier. The ES300 is actually rated as relatively low-risk (probably due to the cross-referencing of Camry parts). Most two-door cars (coupes) will cost you a lot more than the same car as a sedan. It is statistically proven that people with coupes drive more recklessly than people with sedans. Cars that will be REALLY expensive on insurance are rare luxury sports cars (convertibles particulary). Also, in general, the newer the car, the more expensive the insurance.

- LOCATION: You will pay a lot more for insurance if you live in busy Toronto than if you live in a small town like myself

- USE OF VEHICLE: Simply put, the more you drive it, the more you pay.

- COVERAGE: Your premium depends A LOT on the limits you set on your policy. Liability (coverage for people you hurt in an accident) is mandatory in Ontario and makes up a large bulk of your premium. Collision (covers you if an accident is your fault) is optional in Ontario, and costs quite a bit of money! The you also have other limits that you set that also affect your rates . . . ask your broker and he/she will explain how it affects your rate.

Now, these are the major pricing factors. You can also get discounts. For example, most companies will offer a 10-15% discound if you insure both your home and car on the same policy. Also, if you insure more than one car you can usually get a 10% discount. Also, if you can get under a group plan (with your company or something), you can save 10-30%. Also, some companies will give you a loyalty discount of about 10% if you are insured with them for more than 3 or so years. Also, a Driver's Training certificate will save you about 10% but only if you took the training course within the last three years.

Anyways, have fun shopping for insurance! :D

Bryan

[SKperformance]

ok to simplify this

i am 28 married 3 cars in Toronto GTA also have my house insurance ,alarms,non work vehicles for discounts

i used to pay 1000 a year now it is 1400 for full coverage with a 500 deductible with TDCT insurance.

I have had no real tickets and no accidents that were my fault 100% of the time. They have been a pleasure to have a claim with by supplying me with Mercedes rental cars and getting all the work needed done properly and timely.

They are the cheapest i have found.

[PharmGuy]

Ok, just a couple of points. I'm in MA too, and I'm not far from Mike

in the western part of the state. I've been with Commerce Insurance for

many years now, basically because they have a local agent here, they're

friendly and they cover my needs effectively. I think bdonkerersgoed

has some totally right-on-the-money info as to what affects your rating,

coverage and pricing. My son is also an actuary, working for Met, in

it's auto division and he's doing state revision proposal's for Met. (I won't

say which states in particular he does, but the statistics and mathematics

behind the rates is complex. The insurance companies do need to make a

profit, but the other side of the coin, is they have to be competitive with

each other.

As steviej said too---- you do get a higher rate if the bank does a

financing on your vehicle in MA. I think that's the case in many states.

For the most part, a good clean driving record is your best friend, regardless

of who you have covering your vehicle. I haven't had an accident in the

last 15 yrs.(suddenly knocks on the wooden desk here), but I know sometimes

it happens.

Drive Safe--Too much of my work ends up in insurance land anyway

PharmGuy :)

[jragosta]

Depends on what promptly payments means. I use Metlife and it would take about 1.25 to 2 weeks plus the dreaded car rental etc. That is not prompt in my eyes but maybe for some.

My parents have a local guy and have payment within 2 – 3 days from walking in their door and about 20 minutes less on the phone selecting 1 for english, 2 for spanish, 3 for home, 4 if you are on fire etc. Now that is prompt service. Plus they get the same person and you can understand them.

I do not have State Farm but have heard good things. Sometimes large has advantages and sometimes not. Also sometimes the RMV’s has separate line for these larger companies since it takes longer to do things. Only seen this in CT so far.

Oh, the anti-theft alarms etc are a joke, but if it saves you money get them. If they want the car they will take it.

As I noted many companies supply you with a % off when you add your home, motorcycles and even tractors. So also ask them about these.

Lastly, the only problem with insurance adjusters is sometimes their payment changes like the wind. Plus it depends on what shop you are at and if they know the person working there etc. I have a friend in the auto shop business and my in-laws own garages and the stores about insurance is great to listen too.

Insurance companies primary job is to make money and you come second. Nevermind too many claims will get you kicked off their company or a higher rate

I've received payment on the spot for some accidents.

When my car was totaled by some guy running through a stop sign. They offered me a check on the spot. I declined because the value was too low. I gave them a value and they responded with a check the next day.

Insurance is definitely one place you want to be very careful of the low bidder. You may save a few bucks, but when you need their services, they suddenly disappear. And, to top it off, if you're a good driver, the top insurance companies aren't any more expensive than the 'cheap ones' - or (in my case) even less.

Of course insurance companies give you a higher rate if you have too many claims. Insurance is a tool for spreading risk around among comparable drivers. If a good driver has a 1/100 risk of a major accident in a year and a bad driver has a 1/10 risk of a major accident, the bad driver SHOULD pay more. Essentially everything that the insurance company does is based on statistics and calculated by actuaries.

Studies show that single males age 25 have 30% higher risk of an accident than married males the same age - so they pay 30% more money for their insurance (I don't know the exact figures, but you get the point). Anything you do which increases your risk will, in principle, increase your insurance rates. Have an accident, speed, get caught driving drunk, have a criminal conviction, etc. That's just the way insurance works (and the way it's supposed to work).

[jragosta]

And yes, MANY factors determine the premium you pay. Here are the main ones:

[snip]

Now, these are the major pricing factors. You can also get discounts. For example, most companies will offer a 10-15% discound if you insure both your home and car on the same policy. Also, if you insure more than one car you can usually get a 10% discount. Also, if you can get under a group plan (with your company or something), you can save 10-30%. Also, some companies will give you a loyalty discount of about 10% if you are insured with them for more than 3 or so years. Also, a Driver's Training certificate will save you about 10% but only if you took the training course within the last three years.

If you have underage drivers and they're good students (usually B or better), you'll get a discount with some major companies.

Also, if your underage drivers are at college out of state for more than about 8-9 months a year, you'll probably get a reduction.

There are also some smaller company-specific deductions (State Farm has a deal where kids get a deduction for watching a video and recording their driving habits for a month). Make sure to ask your agent if there are any other discounts you might be eligible for.

[mburnickas]

My point here is lets say some person X is accident-prone. While these are not there faults at all, as noted on police reports. Why should that person insurance go up when they are not there fault? Again I do not go by statistics since I have taken class on how to basically make the results in your favor. To easy to lie on them.

As you stated, “ Have an accident, speed, get caught driving drunk, have a criminal conviction, etc. That's just the way insurance works (and the way it's supposed to work).” I disagree since why should something someone did, criminal conviction for example, 25 years ago affect there driving record now? It is nothing more then money-maker. Never-mind home owners insurance. That is even worse.

So you could have a straight A student and get a discount when the person sucks as a driver? The head of my high school class was straight A’s but was on heroin also (spent 4 years in lockup for it), so I guess he should get a discount??? hmmmm…….Also I never knew grades (education) correlates to driving habits at all.

I am not trying to start an insurance war but watching a video gives some a “warm and fuzzy feeling” and I guess some discounts are given; but this should not be awards a discount. Do cops, fire fighters, professional driver get one, nope on the cops? My father is a Ma state cop and get gets zero for that. I guess they should watch a video.

[SKperformance]

You can be found not at fault in a crash but it was caused by the drivers lack of skills,being going slower than posted in the wrong lanes ,braking too early and often causing traffic to bunch up, the person petrified by there own shadow holding the wheel in the preying Mantis fashion.

Personally i can;t stand people who are scared to drive ,they cause more crashes by having to avoid them to carry on with life.

This guy should have just pm'd me to ask about insurance since it was only a comparision question ,but he can;t since he is new.

[mburnickas]

I think it is a good debate or FYI on insurance.......Makes work time go by.....

[jragosta]

My point here is lets say some person X is accident-prone. While these are not there faults at all, as noted on police reports. Why should that person insurance go up when they are not there fault? Again I do not go by statistics since I have taken class on how to basically make the results in your favor. To easy to lie on them.

As you stated, “ Have an accident, speed, get caught driving drunk, have a criminal conviction, etc. That's just the way insurance works (and the way it's supposed to work).” I disagree since why should something someone did, criminal conviction for example, 25 years ago affect there driving record now? It is nothing more then money-maker. Never-mind home owners insurance. That is even worse.

So you could have a straight A student and get a discount when the person sucks as a driver? The head of my high school class was straight A’s but was on heroin also (spent 4 years in lockup for it), so I guess he should get a discount??? hmmmm…….Also I never knew grades (education) correlates to driving habits at all.

I am not trying to start an insurance war but watching a video gives some a “warm and fuzzy feeling” and I guess some discounts are given; but this should not be awards a discount. Do cops, fire fighters, professional driver get one, nope on the cops? My father is a Ma state cop and get gets zero for that. I guess they should watch a video.

All of those things are statistically proven.

Insurance is a way of measuring risk and assigning you to a risk pool. It's a fact that if you have had several accidents, you're more likely to have more. If you drive too fast, you're more likely to have accidents. If you're a good student, you're less likely to have accidents. If you watch the video and do their training, you're less likely to have accidents.

I wouldn't want insurance to work any other way. It's simply a way of spreading risk around - with the people at highest risk paying a greater amount than those at lower risk. If you do it any other way, you're simply subsidizing bad drivers - and telling them that the can be as reckless as they wish with no consequences.

Is it perfect? No. But when you consider that it's a statistical science and can't really be applied to one indivdiual by themselves, it's very, very accurate.

In the case of your father, if there were any evidence that police had a lower risk, they'd get a lower rate. Occupation _is_ considered in many cases. For example, nurses often get a very low rate and doctors often get a very high rate. It's all about risk.

[mburnickas]

You are correct but at what price? Mine, yours etc. I agree with some but the school and the video is a total joke. I guess that is corporate America for ya. There profit goes up and so does our bills. Amazing. I can’t wait till they outsource the insurance business overseas or they go belly up.

You can sign up to watch a movie, fall asleep and you get money back. How can you beat this? You can be good in school but suck at driving and get a discount. No wonder people want to come to America. So books in school mean better driving, I did not know that. To date after 4 insurance companies, Step 9 driver, 14 years no one has ever asked if I was good in school or did they care; but that is the wonderful state of Mass. But the new kid trying to do good and is a very diligent in driving gets, well, screwed…nice.

Yes it is “subsidizing bad drivers “ but on “there” backs for no reason. Based on where people live, drive, car etc. If that is not a scam I do not know what is.

Again after taking math classes this is guessing, not proof. Statistics are not 100% but the insurance people bill you as such. I should stay statistical the check is in the mail and let the CS rep figure that out.

Police should get lower since they go through more training them the average person. A nurse gets a low rate, so what does a understaker get, FREE insurance? God, I hate insurance people.

[jragosta]

You are correct but at what price? Mine, yours etc. I agree with some but the school and the video is a total joke. I guess that is corporate America for ya. There profit goes up and so does our bills. Amazing. I can’t wait till they outsource the insurance business overseas or they go belly up.

You can sign up to watch a movie, fall asleep and you get money back. How can you beat this? You can be good in school but suck at driving and get a discount. No wonder people want to come to America. So books in school mean better driving, I did not know that. To date after 4 insurance companies, Step 9 driver, 14 years no one has ever asked if I was good in school or did they care; but that is the wonderful state of Mass. But the new kid trying to do good and is a very diligent in driving gets, well, screwed…nice.

Yes it is “subsidizing bad drivers “ but on “there” backs for no reason. Based on where people live, drive, car etc. If that is not a scam I do not know what is.

Again after taking math classes this is guessing, not proof. Statistics are not 100% but the insurance people bill you as such. I should stay statistical the check is in the mail and let the CS rep figure that out.

Police should get lower since they go through more training them the average person. A nurse gets a low rate, so what does a understaker get, FREE insurance? God, I hate insurance people.

Let me offer some advice - learn something about statistics and actuarial science before commenting on the subject.

Virtually everything you've said is wrong. As much as you _wish_ that being a good student would have nothing to do with being a good driver, it does. Just like the rest of the things.

Where you live has a HUGE impact on the risk of loss - and consequently, the cost of insuring you.

As for police, you're confused. If it were simply a matter of training, you might be right. It's not - it's about risk of loss. Statistically, police are no better or worse than average (based on someone saying that their father doesn't get a discount). Presumably, the benefits of their additional training are outweighed by other factors - perhaps more aggressive driving, more miles driven, or greater risk taking personality. Again, one doesn't need to understand WHY something is true. You simply look at the stats - which is why insurance companies have whole teams of actuaries.

[mburnickas]

It seems like you like insurance and so be it. If you like paying more because of where you live, age, etc..good It is called LEGAL crooks. So I could like 1 foot of some "fake" high theft city line from a low safe line and my insurance is 3X more because I am 1 foot (12”) over the line? Boy, that is fair.

Or better yet I could be 29-years old and "think" I am a better driver then when I was 18-year old. Could be true could not be. I know for a fact that I have way more distractions now then before. But the insurance says I am safer since some person entered my info into a computer program...Boy, I feel safe and my discount proves it! Another example, an 18-year old guy pays more then a 22-year old person. Hmm, never mind that the 22 year old is over 21, get the hint; but, the 18 yo pays more…unreal.

"You simply look at the stats - which is why insurance companies have whole teams of actuaries.".. Just because they have teams does not make them 100% correct either. My city I live in has team meetings and nothing comes out of it except when the budget is negative.

I called my advisor (PHD) at school who contracts for many things including accidents since I needed to talk about upcoming class yet again. I told him what were talking about and he laughed. HE said when I come in for all bring any statistics/w data you want and 100 to 1 I can make them work in my favor. He also said I never got a discount for all his degrees. I told him you are getting screwed and need to watch a video. I have known him a long time and if there is a math way, he will find it. We both laughed.

You stated, " Again, one doesn't need to understand WHY something is true. " If that were true, which it can’t be, there would be no cars, no space program, no airplanes. hence no math since we do not need to know what is true and false, even no computers etc....I like things that can be proven. I guess you like someone guessing and it costs you money in the end. Again stats are not facts. It is not 100%, could be very close but not 100%. You are paying for no deviation.

All I will say is outsource the insurance companies, period. My wife worked for a major one in CT for over 8 years and she quit! I did go to work with her on some weekend’s if she needed to play catch up and boy, waste of money and it falls on the customers back. She showed me what she did and her department since she was the head super (king of nothing) and boy, no wonder insurance is high. I will not get into it, but when you have 3 people entering manual date into computers several times (for same outcome), translator problems, sending over 20K letters and no one checks address in the computer to make sure & over 3K letters come back (like last time), then figuring out where the people (3K) are and why…it goes on and on. Again their overhead budget affects your policy balance.

They are there to help you all the time as they state. Oh, did I say only 1 claim every so many years or up to a certain limit since we don’t help you that much…………..

To close do what you need to to save YOU the most money, not them.

It is like house insurance. They call you at home and ask you questions on your home which affects your policy. Boy, what a way to run a business. Ask the customer if he wants to screw himself or not...hmmm, that is a hard question.

[jragosta]

It seems like you like insurance and so be it. If you like paying more because of where you live, age, etc..good It is called LEGAL crooks. So I could like 1 foot of some "fake" high theft city line from a low safe line and my insurance is 3X more because I am 1 foot (12”) over the line? Boy, that is fair.

Or better yet I could be 29-years old and "think" I am a better driver then when I was 18-year old. Could be true could not be. I know for a fact that I have way more distractions now then before. But the insurance says I am safer since some person entered my info into a computer program...Boy, I feel safe and my discount proves it! Another example, an 18-year old guy pays more then a 22-year old person. Hmm, never mind that the 22 year old is over 21, get the hint; but, the 18 yo pays more…unreal.

"You simply look at the stats - which is why insurance companies have whole teams of actuaries.".. Just because they have teams does not make them 100% correct either. My city I live in has team meetings and nothing comes out of it except when the budget is negative.

I called my advisor (PHD) at school who contracts for many things including accidents since I needed to talk about upcoming class yet again. I told him what were talking about and he laughed. HE said when I come in for all bring any statistics/w data you want and 100 to 1 I can make them work in my favor. He also said I never got a discount for all his degrees. I told him you are getting screwed and need to watch a video. I have known him a long time and if there is a math way, he will find it. We both laughed.

You stated, " Again, one doesn't need to understand WHY something is true. " If that were true, which it can’t be, there would be no cars, no space program, no airplanes. hence no math since we do not need to know what is true and false, even no computers etc....I like things that can be proven. I guess you like someone guessing and it costs you money in the end. Again stats are not facts. It is not 100%, could be very close but not 100%. You are paying for no deviation.

All I will say is outsource the insurance companies, period. My wife worked for a major one in CT for over 8 years and she quit! I did go to work with her on some weekend’s if she needed to play catch up and boy, waste of money and it falls on the customers back.  She showed me what she did and her department since she was the head super (king of nothing) and boy, no wonder insurance is high. I will not get into it, but when you have 3 people entering manual date into computers several times (for same outcome), translator problems, sending over 20K letters and no one checks address in the computer to make sure & over 3K letters come back (like last time), then figuring out where the people (3K) are and why…it goes on and on. Again their overhead budget affects your policy balance.

They are there to help you all the time as they state. Oh, did I say only 1 claim every so many years or up to a certain limit since we don’t help you that much…………..

To close do what you need to to save YOU the most money, not them.

It is like house insurance. They call you at home and ask you questions on your home which affects your policy. Boy, what a way to run a business. Ask the customer if he wants to screw himself or not...hmmm, that is a hard question.

Yes, I like insurance. It reduces my risk. If I didn't have insurance, my life would be very different - and not as pleasant. I'd certainly spend a lot more time worrying about things. There are millions of people who would have been wiped out by things beyond their control who managed to survive because they had insurance. There's nothing crooked about it. The fact that you don't like it (presumably because you're a higher risk than I am and therefore paying higher premiums) doesn't make it unfair.

Let's look at your rant one step at a time.

1. It's not about whether you THINK you're a better driver or not. It's not even about whether you ARE a better driver or not. It's about what the risk is for you. And, yes, the risk is lower for a 29 year old than for an 18 year old with everything else being equal.

2. No one said that anything was 100% accurate. And, yes, if you have stupid teams, they'll get stupid results. But the insurance industry has thousands of companies competing for your business and each of them has thousands of actuaries running the numbers. Then you have the insurance commissions running the same numbers for verification. Then, you can look at the ACTUAL loss history versus the projected loss history and assigned premiums and they match pretty well. Actuarial science does a very good job of estimating risk.

3. What is your advisor's PhD in? Certainly not actuarial science. An Art History PhD isn't qualified to discuss it. Talk to someone with a degree in actuarial science. Can you fudge statistics? Probably - but not to the degree you're suggesting. To pretend that the entire insurance industry is based on false numbers is beyond absurd.

4. It's a shame that your advisor says he didn't get any discount due to his degrees. Notice that I never claimed that he would. In fact, I specifically stated that doctors pay one of the highest insurance rates out there. Education is one of the factors considered - but not the only one and it can raise rates as well as lower them.

5. Your analogy about 'no cars, no planes, etc' is another absurdity - presumably an attempt to hide the fact that you don't know what you're talking about. My comment was that you don't need to know every single detail about why a doctor has more accidents to recognize that they do, in fact, have more accidents and should therefore pay a higher premium. If you wish, you could stretch the analogy to say that you don't need to know all the intricacies of how free radical propogation contributes to flame speed in order to drive your car. Knowledge is obviously a good thing. My only point is that your lack of knowledge doesn't invalidate a fact.

6. No one ever claimed that insurance was 100% efficient. No company is. Is there waste? Sure. That doesn't change the facts. If you look at the overhead, it's actually quite reasonable - compared to many other industries.

7. Insurance companies are there to provide a service. They give you the terms of that service. If you violate the terms of the service (by having too many accidents, for example), then they have every right to cancel it.

Your suggestion that you should lie to the insurance company is not only incredibly unethical, it's also quite illegal. I would encourage you not to act on it-insurance companies are finally coming to their senses and cracking down on fraud.

[mburnickas]

[

1. It's not about whether you THINK you're a better driver or not. It's not even about whether you ARE a better driver or not. It's about what the risk is for you. And, yes, the risk is lower for a 29 year old than for an 18 year old with everything else being equal.

So I am at a lower risk..prove it. The fact that you state everything else being equal is not realistic. But ha, I will take the discount since they apparently know all.

2. No one said that anything was 100% accurate. And, yes, if you have stupid teams, they'll get stupid results. But the insurance industry has thousands of companies competing for your business and each of them has thousands of actuaries running the numbers. Then you have the insurance commissions running the same numbers for verification. Then, you can look at the ACTUAL loss history versus the projected loss history and assigned premiums and they match pretty well. Actuarial science does a very good job of estimating risk.

I have thousand competing for my business..are you sure? There are thousands of HIGH ones and few low ones. You summed it all up, projection (is a guess) and then “match pretty well”....Such wonderful ways of billing people. How nice.

3. What is your advisor's PhD in? Certainly not actuarial science. An Art History PhD isn't qualified to discuss it. Talk to someone with a degree in actuarial science. Can you fudge statistics? Probably - but not to the degree you're suggesting. To pretend that the entire insurance industry is based on false numbers is beyond absurd.

I will not comment on the but it is not art history. Contracts for NASA and other goverment contracts.

4. It's a shame that your advisor says he didn't get any discount due to his degrees. Notice that I never claimed that he would. In fact, I specifically stated that doctors pay one of the highest insurance rates out there. Education is one of the factors considered - but not the only one and it can raise rates as well as lower them.

You stated “If you're a good student, you're less likely to have accidents and” Then in an early post good grades get a discount. And where is my discount?? I will call METlife today and see how valid this post is. I can’t wait….

5. Your analogy about 'no cars, no planes, etc' is another absurdity - presumably an attempt to hide the fact that you don't know what you're talking about. My comment was that you don't need to know every single detail about why a doctor has more accidents to recognize that they do, in fact, have more accidents and should therefore pay a higher premium. If you wish, you could stretch the analogy to say that you don't need to know all the intricacies of how free radical propogation contributes to flame speed in order to drive your car. Knowledge is obviously a good thing. My only point is that your lack of knowledge doesn't invalidate a fact.

If I am paying for a doc I want to know. Why is a doc at high risk? So far my insurance does not care what I do for work. I never stated any facts just what I have gone through in my life and what my wife did working for them. I will call METlife today and see how valid this post is. I can’t wait….

6. No one ever claimed that insurance was 100% efficient. No company is. Is there waste? Sure. That doesn't change the facts. If you look at the overhead, it's actually quite reasonable - compared to many other industries.

quite reasonable??? not from what I have seen and the industry needs to get more streamlined here. I have seen the numbers when my wife worked there. Again outsource, bye bye,

7. Insurance companies are there to provide a service. They give you the terms of that service. If you violate the terms of the service (by having too many accidents, for example), then they have every right to cancel it.

So I can be perfect for 20+ years and I get into 2 accidents in 6 month I am high risk? Factor in the 20+ years with your stats!

Your suggestion that you should lie to the insurance company is not only incredibly unethical, it's also quite illegal. I would encourage you not to act on it-insurance companies are finally coming to their senses and cracking down on fraud.

It is not unethical, nor quite illegal. When some moron from METLIFE asks me, how close is a fire hydrant to my home, I say you tell me and what is the closest I can have? I did not measure it with a tape! Then for a fact, she states, "Guess on the distance"!!!!!!!When some moron on the phone asks me, how old my electrical wiring is, you tell me what gives me the best discount? I say define old? How about roof age, you tell me? I state the date I bought it since I do not know. What is the best discount? Plumbing age? depends on what sections are in question. Since I am not a builder, electrician, inspector I am only GUESSING and they buy it. Again my policy is based on GUESSING BY ME. How nice! Since they can have million of teams on stats getting overpaid, why not get proper people to get real answers on what my home contains....maybe call the inspector that did my home...dah...wait, you know, insurance is just fine, don't change a thing.

[jragosta]

[snip of your repeated proof that you don't understand anything about business OR statistics]

Your suggestion that you should lie to the insurance company is not only incredibly unethical, it's also quite illegal. I would encourage you not to act on it-insurance companies are finally coming to their senses and cracking down on fraud.

It is not unethical, nor quite illegal. When some moron from METLIFE asks me, how close is a fire hydrant to my home, I say you tell me and what is the closest I can have? I did not measure it with a tape! Then for a fact, she states, "Guess on the distance"!!!!!!!When some moron on the phone asks me, how old my electrical wiring is, you tell me what gives me the best discount? I say define old? How about roof age, you tell me? I state the date I bought it since I do not know. What is the best discount? Plumbing age? depends on what sections are in question. Since I am not a builder, electrician, inspector I am only GUESSING and they buy it. Again my policy is based on GUESSING BY ME. How nice! Since they can have million of teams on stats getting overpaid, why not get proper people to get real answers on what my home contains....maybe call the inspector that did my home...dah...wait, you know, insurance is just fine, don't change a thing.

It most certainly is unethical. Insurance is based on assigning risk based on various risk factors. the fact that you don't know the distance to a fire hydrant to the nearest foot doesn't give you the right to lie. You say you don't know or give an estimate. If you know it's half a mile and you say 50 feet, that's a blatant lie and you're cheating the insurance company (as well as the people who are honestly paying premiums). If you know your wiring is the original wiring in the house and is 100 years old and you say it's brand new, you're lying - and cheating the insurance company and honest clients.

It also happens to be a crime - at least in most states.

Face it - because you don't like something you simply don't understand.

Edited July 22, 2004 by steviej