Synthic Oil And K&n Filter

[mburnickas]

The issue here is that I do not feel anything. The results tell me it is fine to use and continue to use. I do not just say it is fine to keep going.

Everyone says oil must do this or do that, but again, for the 100th time show me where it says that on the letter they sent me, online or anywhere. Show me the test results of cars that had sludge problems. Where are their results? What oil? What filter change? What intervals? Did they have the magical receipts from the recycle station to prove that they changed their oil.

Also you stated the oil must show that it met the Toyota spec. Which in reality is an ASTM spec, nothing fancy. Show me if there oil met the spec after a certain milage? All any oil has to do is meet the same specs that Toyota oil passes. That is not to hard since most oils do not change that often. A few change with their basestock or additives, but then they have to re-pass the same tests. If you look on the back of their bottle it has the proper spec's it passes. The same as about 10 other different oils out there. Toyota is not "ground breaking" oils here.

So if anyone has an oil test with numbers show them. Show me that using there oil at a certain interval does anything or that it is better or worse then another oil?

All I see is people saying, receipts this, show that the oil meets, recommends, etc. Again these are nice words from people, but I need info/data from Lexus or Toyota. I need documentation stating what I need to adhere too, not recommends, MUST follow.

So far all the Lexus docs from corporate state, “……All we ask is that you show a reasonable effort to regularly maintain your vehicle.” Again that is right from Lexus, the people who manufacture the car. Also does it have a reasonable schedule in our manual for our cars? I do not see that nor do I know what that means.

To close, again prove to me that I need to do short drain at all? Show me data that says I must do what they recommend, that it prevents anything and I must use their oil. Show me example of a 97 to 2002 Lexus with different oil and what there wear results are on the oil test? there TBN are? there OXD and NOX levels.

So far only out of over 3 million cars that MIGHT have this problem, only around 3,400 needed an engine replacement. Do the math in percentage and see how little the probability is.

If I have a problem, and I very-very highly doubt that, since my oil tests PROVE to me that the engine oil is fine; why would I worry about a warranty that ends in less then 2 years? Prove it to me it was my fault. Show me the numbers.

Again look on my website for all the info on this topic….Nothing new.

People can lie but and oil tests is the raw data. Again, if Lexus just goes by what people say, I want to be their corporate lawyer since they trust their people so much. the people just say something and they believe them. I wonder if I walk in and show a tranny slip from my recycle station they give me a new tranny too. How about air in tires! There is no end.

[SW03ES]

AllI'm saying is what I have been told by LOC members that have had the gelling issue and tried to get the engine covered. All Lexus was interested in were reciepts verifying oil changes being done similarly to the reccomended scheduled maintenance, no mention of testing oil at all. I don't have a car affected by the gelling issue so I don't have the letter from Lexus. All I have are the real-world experience of these members. It appears that indeed all they need are reciepts to honor the warranty.

Also I've never been to a garage that didn't present me with a work order stating everything that was done, the date and the mileage.

[mburnickas]

You could be very well right, but I would I need letters from Lexus stating what I must adhere too and the proper process for demonstrating what I would need. So far I do not see anything from Lexus/Toyota. All the info I have is on the links on my homepage as posted above.

The one on the recycle station slips got me ROFLMOA. That is a joke as to the reasons outlined above. Again poor requirements, or lack there of on Lexus’s part; but, I guess my recycle station people have “dumping power”. Or the guy at Wal-mart where I could have bought the oil is proof for Lexus. That is unreal.

Also, just because the workorder at a garage says something does not prove that it was completed in that manner. I have been to garages that start we rotated tires and were never done. I have been to garages that state we changed the belts and I go look and the old ones are on there. Along with other things. That is not proof and would never hold up.

To close, I would highly doubt Lexus will give you a new motor with just some receipts or slips form any garage or recycling center as all the reasons I stated above. Just because you have a receipts does not mean it was completed to the info as outlined in our manual. The slips do not prove anything jsut that you were there and were to get this service. It does not mean you got it.

Never mind the “similarly to the reccomended scheduled maintenance”. Again I do not know what similarly means in this application and how the correlates to my owners manual. Is it "kind of the same", "within some small %", "large percentage" "what are the limits"?

I am not break ground on this topic. Either you engine is bad or not. You only can tell by testing.

[dcfish]

Personally , This post has gone too far off of original topic ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

ORDER IN THE COURT !!!

[mspin24]

You debating this oil thing must be a bunch of lawyers. LOL. Points taken, thank you. I'll stick to regular oil and change it ever 30,000 miles. Just playing. I thank you all for your comments and help putting my mind at ease. I'm sticking to the basics.

[jragosta]

You could be very well right, but I would I need letters from Lexus stating what I must adhere too and the proper process for demonstrating what I would need. So far I do not see anything from Lexus/Toyota. All the info I have is on the links on my homepage as posted above.

You're quibbling about silly stuff and ignoring the important things.

Lexus gives you a maintenance interval. They tell you what kind of oil to put in. They say that you have to make a reasonable effort to meet this. They are apparently asking for documenetation from at least some people.

You can quibble about whether changing the oil at 8000 miles instead of 7500 is a 'reasonable effort'. You can not plausibly argue that running the oil past 10,000 miles consistently is a reasonable effort. Unless you're close to or better than the Lexus maintenance schedule, you're likelty to be out of luck.

Waiting for a letter from Lexus is also silly. Their manual tells you how to take care of your car. They don't need to follow it up with an engraved invitation.

[mburnickas]

There is no ignoring it or anything. Yes Lexus gave me a maintenance interval, but it does not say I MUST adhere to it either. It only recommends something that does not mean anything but there opinion.

Again for the 101st time, does Lexus state an example of what reasonable effort means when compared to their normal recommend maintenance? Nope, so you are just “thinking” what is correct, no proof there. I do not assume anything as you when you stated, “They are apparently asking for documenetation from at least some people”. Who is "some people and why only some" and "show what"? Use oil and filters? Company slips? Come on & tell me what to show here.

I stated for the 20th time, “All we ask is that you show a reasonable effort to regularly maintain your vehicle”. I can show them my records and that is a “reasonable effort” by me. So now compare what we both think is reasonable in this case is…I hope you see the problem with assuming things. The fact remains what is “reasonable effort to regularly maintain”.

Ok, you can maybe trust what you say or others, but when it comes down to it you need something from LEXUS that states what you must do and go by. If a corporate lawyer asks you something and you say “Mr XX said”, the lawyer will laugh and say that is not proof. I have letters and it does not state I must follow any mileage outline. Maybe you like to assume but not me.

Again show me proof as I have stated time and time again on this in the above posts. I do not see anything from Lexus on your end, only mine here.

Next, you state “Unless you're close to or better than the Lexus maintenance schedule, you're likelty to be out of luck". I do not think Lexus will buy your “close to or better” statement since again, this is not stated anywhere in ANY letter or online from Lexus. What is close?Within 5% miles, 10% etrc…… Do you understand it now?

Lastly, you stated “Waiting for a letter from Lexus is also silly”! Are you kidding! The letter shows you there MIGHT be a problem and they ask you to at least to show reasonable maintenance …..It is a “Get out of jail free” since they left the door open with the lack of info on it. I have shown based on my records…that is a reasonable effort. If not, where does it have the limits to “reasonable effort”.

Based on your response you do not work with military or government spec or standards; if you did you would know things need to be spelled out 100% if you want to make sure it is done right. I do not see it in these letters or anything. Again the letters are very “open” but it is something to back the customer up.

So unless you have other letters from Lexus stating what I must adhere to, you are less informative then the letters I have. Plus show me some oil results to at least be “somewhat” in the ballpark here. So far it is just what you think and hearsay. I need facts, guidelines, anything from Lexus. I have some, anyone else?

**PS unless anyone has FACTS from LEXUS please go back to the topic at hand since it is mostly peoples opinions and not based on FACTS! ...

[jragosta]

There is no ignoring it or anything. Yes Lexus gave me a maintenance interval, but it does not say I MUST adhere to it either. It only recommends something that does not mean anything but there opinion.

I've already answered all of this. Feel free to ignore it.

You purchased a vehicle. It comes with a bunch of documents. Those documents (warranty and maintenance schedule) are binding.

If you choose to ignore the maintenance schedule, that's your choice, but don't whine about Lexus not fixing your engine.

The manual gives you a maintenance schedule. That's what Lexus wants you to do. They don't need to send another letter.

If it goes to court, the relevant standard would be 'what would a reasonable person do'. A reasonable person would do what the manufacturer tells him to do - follow the written maintenance schedule. Period. No one in their right mind is going to claim that they didn't know what schedule they should be using.

[mburnickas]

Ok, again, look at the ES manual and then look at the Lexus Letters they sent out on this issue. I personally have 2 letters. They do not state anything that correlates the two, nor is it DEFINED in the letter what I reasonable effort is. Nor does it even state in the letter that I should (or must) use what they recommend in there manual! What do you not understand here? Please show me if it does since the 2 original letters do not say anything.

The maintenance schedule in the ES Owners manual is only a recommendation or advises. It does not say you must do anything, only recommends or advises.

If this went to court, your “theory” would not hold up in any court. A jury does not care on what, as you state “'what would a reasonable person do'”. They [jury] wants information called facts that pertain to the item in question, not what something thinks. They will ask you was there info defined that states you must follow this criteria to maintain your warranty? I do not see any warnings, any schedules that I must adhere to, the way the maintenance must be performed (and by whom), etc. Again, I do not want to assume things because it is not worth anything. Again "must" is not the same thing as "recommend".

You nor Lexus can’t define “reasonable effort” here? I ask my wife to leave me a reasonable amount of money in my checking. So tell me how much she leaves????Anyone?

Can you post any info (called facts) you have from Lexus or oil tests to somewhat (20%) backup your theory as I have stated? I only have Lexus documentation on what to do but it is not very clear, anyone else????????

You can “think” you must do this and that, but again. This is the on-going 10-year debate on this issue and so far it is getting old since the “old timer theory” is dying. ...nothing new here.

[jragosta]

Ok, again, look at the ES manual and then look at the Lexus Letters they sent out on this issue. I personally have 2 letters. They do not state anything that correlates the two, nor is it DEFINED in the letter what I reasonable effort is. Nor does it even state in the letter that I should (or must) use what they recommend in there manual! What do you not understand here? Please show me if it does since the 2 original letters do not say anything.

The maintenance schedule in the ES Owners manual is only a recommendation or advises. It does not say you must do anything, only recommends or advises.

If this went to court, your “theory” would not hold up in any court. A jury does not care on what, as you state “'what would a reasonable person do'”. They [jury] wants information called facts that pertain to the item in question, not what something thinks. They will ask you was there info defined that states you must follow this criteria to maintain your warranty? I do not see any warnings, any schedules that I must adhere to, the way the maintenance must be performed (and by whom), etc. Again, I do not want to assume things because it is not worth anything. Again "must" is not the same thing as "recommend".

You nor Lexus can’t define “reasonable effort” here? I ask my wife to leave me a reasonable amount of money in my checking. So tell me how much she leaves????Anyone?

Can you post any info (called facts) you have from Lexus or oil tests to somewhat (20%) backup your theory as I have stated? I only have Lexus documentation on what to do but it is not very clear, anyone else????????

You can “think” you must do this and that, but again. This is the on-going 10-year debate on this issue and so far it is getting old since the “old timer theory” is dying. ...nothing new here.

You really should learn something about the law.

There is a general principle in civil law that someone is expected to do what a reasonable person would do to avoid liablity.

Anyone in their right mind would read the Lexus manual and follow the guidelines if they expect warranty service. Lexus would be entirely reasonable in refusing to honor the warranty if the car were not maintanied.

That's what Lexus is trying to explain to you but you're not listening to anyone. You have to do what a reasonable person would do (or, in their words, make a reasonable effort). The guidelines are there and anyone can read them. If you ask 1000 people on the street what the manufacturer recommends for oil change interval, 999 of them will refer you to the owners' manual.

You're so stuck on getting someone to tell you that 7999 miles is OK but 8000 miles isn't that you're ignoring all the important issues.

I'm through here. I can talk to the wall any time I wish. I don't need you to fill in.

[mburnickas]

LMAO- Again facts help here not interpretations of civil law. Law means proof. Did you read the letters or have any? Go back and re-read my last post.

Apparently you are guessing in a lot of areas here. Again did you find any Letters from Lexus or have oil tests yet? Might shed some light on your end.

Lastly I do not see guidelines in my manual, only recomandations. Guideline nor recomandations are not "set in stone".

Again old school mentality and again this is nothing new. Please shown ANYTHING you have from Lexus here, not what you think. FACTs are needed.

Oh, on my diesel tractor states, "WARNING- Do not stick hands under mower when running". It does not say, "We recommend you do not stick your hands under mower"... Again big difference.

Nor does it say, "Please within a reasonable effort do not put hands under mower". ROFLMAO!!!!!It defines what they want YOU, the customer, to do unlike Lexus with their open interpretation.

Also as you staed, " If you ask 1000 people on the street what the manufacturer recommends for oil change interval, 999 of them will refer you to the owners' manual." That does not mean anything. Most owners don't even know who to do an oil change. The manual is a BASIC understanding of the car. Kind of like "Cars for Dummies" at best. It is there for ref it you need it. Most items in there say go to dealer since they figure that people can't figure it out.

Also since you are stuck in manual world, why does 99% of oil change places do not adhere to there car manufacture oil drains???? Even Lexus is different then their OWN manual...Lexus dealers do not even go by what they own company recommends!!!!

You are too much....:wacko:

[tundra-lover]

Well, I don't pay much attention to going by the manual. I think some things need more attention- one of them being the oil. I for one change mine sooner than later. Usually around 4000 or so, which I can do in three months. I can definitely tell a difference when changed- both in color, feel and sound in the valve train. I wouldn't go much longer than that. It also will usually need a quarter of a quart during that time.

I also don't care much for testing my oil, and know its better than the stock Toyota oil.

Lets get off the legal talk- Its like being at work. I go here to get away, and try to be of some sort of assistance. Makes me feel a little better at the end of the day.

[dcfish]

geez!!!! drop this , And wax your ride , :chairshot: :chairshot: change the oil and move on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> :chairshot:

[steviej]

As informative as all sides are, this thread has drifted from the original topic.

Some posts are bordering on antagonistic and sarcastic. That is not what this forum is for. If we can't discuss things like rational adults without the LOLs and the like, then I have no choice:

This post is closed.

If you wish to continue a discussion on burden of proof, owner responsibilites, etc. then please start a new thread in General Discussion forum.

steviej

ES Forum Moderator.