jainla

Yes I have driven both. The RX didn't really impress me that much; but the GS450h was fun to drive...the CVT and the immediate torque give quite the rush. However the trunk is tiny and you do feel that extra weight in the curves. In the end there is just not enough headroom in the GS so it's not really an option for me. :( I think the difference is more like $20,000; the 600 comes with Nav/ML and a couple other options which spec out to about 82k (from what I can tell) on a 460L. I think the exec seating package is still an option; as are park assist and APCS. I'm certainly not giving up on it but I think we all expected more. In many other ways the LS460 and cars that came before it reinvented their part of the segment; they exceed their competitors in many ways with every new generation. The Hybrid while a technological marvel just doesn't seem to bring that much more to the table for the everyday driver; especially compared to the A8L or S600 (I agree the 750/760 decision is a wash). I know more than one potential LS460 shopper who said they didn't want the hybrid (this goes back to my continuing question...is "hybrid" really a killer application at this price point). The only big plus is that the price jump is not quite as high as the german cars.Also many people (the press) make value judgements soley based on numbers. If the car provided AWD and the same or better acceleration with better mileage than an LS460 then I think the case could still be made that it was worth another 20k (as well as reduced trunk space and increased weight); but until we get the real EPA estimates and production performance data it's too close to call. Since the value of the brand is judged on part based on the press if the press isn't in love with it the the brand suffers. Also the LS 460 has set the bar very high; with 8 speeds the engine never feels down on power and it's very responsive; yet still more efficient than it's competition. In the end Lexus may have shot themselves in the foot by doing too good a job with the 'base' car....there's just not much to improve on. That all said if a 600h followed me home one night I certainly wouldn't chase it away. And I will be first in line to drive it at this fall's TOL. :)

Yeah I agree it has to be faster. Even if it's just on paper like 2 tenths of a second faster.This same criticism was hurled at Mercedes when the S600 wasn't turbocharged; it was (for all intents and purposes) no quicker than the S500; and yet it was less efficient and cost way more. I bet that's the reason they decided to drop the 2 turbos in there...to really differentiate the product. At this point I think if they bored the V8 out to 5.5. litres and then added the hybrid system it might be a compelling proposition; the hybrid system would help with city mileage and then the transmission could be geared to give decent highway mileage; with substantially better performance. I was looking around on the BMW site and they quote the 750Li/760Li as having identical 0-60 performance. If they added AWD to the 760 it would probably be slower than the RWD 750. So I guess they are thinking that that Hybrid badge is worth what the 760 badge is worth? At this point they might be better off with a full V12. Lexus is betting that people will want to drive a hybrid for sake of driving a hybrid; and I doubt that will be convincing to people in this price range. At this level (I would think) people either want more performance (faster faster!!) or more luxury (princesses with palm fronds feeding me grapes please). Or they want the brand. Witness why Rolls Royces continue to sell at 4 times the cost of an LS460 without being (IMHO) 4x better.

From the Edmunds Review: I must say I'm disappointed...I was hoping for something closer to 5.0.... Aside from the satisfaction of driving a hybrid (and everyone who can tell knowing you paid way more) what's the point? They can only quote 2008 EPA figures, and I don't know what those are for the 460 because the system changes for MY 2008 to more realistically reflect real world milege...I want to say that I saw somewhere they are like 17/24. So you might get a teensy bit better city mileage. Aside from the quiet and AWD there's not that much that temps my (mythical) 20 grand. Hopefully the production cars are faster?

I think I read somewhere that US sales were supposed to be like 2k? and Worldwide maybe 5-8k? This is typical; the 3.5L V6 in the GS450 makes about 270hp; and the extra 2 motors only add about 40hp to the peak system power. I believe that most of this is due to the fact that the motors generate their maximum torque at 0rpm and start to decline gradually as the RPM increase. So as the power curve of the motors decline and the V8 increases the electric motors may indeed only be adding about 50hp at their combined highest point. I bet however that the spread and breadth of the power curve is much larger than a typical gas-only drivetrain. Some of their other claims are dubous; that the LS400 was not cross compared with the S Class and 7 series when it came out (it was). They don't seem to have many comments on the power; quiet, etc etc. Did they really drive the car? Also odd they claim that the mfr 0-60 is 5.5 seconds...slower than the LS460? [EDIT] Well I guess 800 extra pounds and AWD really does take away any advantage: Edmunds Review from Hank in another thread.

Went to lunch on sunday in Santa Monica. There was a silver LS460L and a black S65 parked on in front of the other (I suspect they are dealer 'loaners' because I have seen the LS there before; it had a dealer's business card next to the registration sticker). The more I see the new LS the more I like it. because of the bigger wheelbase and more glass area it looks like a much larger car than the LS430 does. It's sleek and interesting without trying too hard. The only downside is that Toyota/Lexus seems to have broken with many LS traditions; but they want to take the model in a new direction so some of that seems to be inevitable. Many people stopped to look at the LS; not so many the Benz. The LS 460/600 is a much more attractive car in person than in most photographs; for my money the new S looks a little too 'riced out' with the fender flares and the huge front air dam.

Well technically it does only the S450 and S350 are not sold here. :) The same could be said about the S550 and S600. The 600h is intended to compete against the S600 and 760Li; not the S550. It will have more premium appointments (leather dash; extra wood here and there) which on an S550 require the designo package; which adds another $10k or so. Having a car that's $20-30k less than either topline german competitors is a compelling proposition for some people. Also the 600h has standard Nav, ML and a couple other things that you have to pay extra for on the 460 that narrows the price gap a bit. With comparably equipped LS460L models hitting about $80k, $104k means about a 24k premium for the hybrid model (which also includes AWD). Not cheap but the S600 starts at $140k which is almost 40k more than a regular S550.That said I think many buyers are going compare the S550 and the 600h anyway because of price; and the 600h is (probably) faster; more efficient; and has AWD standard in addition to several other features not available on the S class; however it's not a Benz or a Bimmer and for some people that matters a great deal at that price point. I wonder if part of the strategy of MB importing only the S550 was to price the S-class away from the LS models to discourage direct comparison. The prevailing thinking among many people I know who buy these cars is that the S600/760Li are purely an image decision; for most people in everyday driving the additional power is academic; and the additional cachet is not worth the huge price premium they command over the S550/750Li; there is also no additional space; etc etc. The 600h compares well in price and power to the 760Li and Audi A8 W12; however the S600 (at least on paper) enjoys a substantial power advantage. Until we see the performance numbers we won't know how much of a real-world advantage those additional 90hp represent. I'm very curious to drive the LS hybrid; I suspect Lexus is underrating the total system HP quite a bit. On it's own a 5.0L version of the 4.6L V8 could probably be expected to make about 420hp; and the 2 electric motors only adds another 18hp? Come on..the GS with it's smaller motors claims more of a boost than that. The GS450 has a very unique feel that I quite like; however the tiny trunk and huge weight gain make it feel less responsive than a GS350 or 430. Perhaps the LS with its less sporty pretentions and greater overall starting weight will drive better?

No. You are not crazy. I think when you take into account the total ownership experience the LS is pretty impossible to beat. Almost every time I get out of the LS I feel better than when I got into it. Its does so many things brilliantly. And for such a large heavy feature laden car the maintenance is a snap; and the guy at the Smog station complimented me on my good gas mileage (??!!). Every so often I'm on the road somewhere and it just hits me....this is a REALLY nice car!! I'm thinking of buying a SECOND one in a couple years so that I can spread the mileage out more evenly. Now THAT'S crazy. :)

I found the BMW feels more connected to the road; but as far as body roll; power and braking I didn't think it really was that much better than the LS. The BMWs with their lower gearing and telepathic steering tempt you to drive them hard; they almost dare you. The LS460 is not so blatant but can really hold it's own when pushed. With less feedback from the steering you have to trust the car more and that makes some people (myself included) a little more hesitant to push it hard. I'm curious to drive the Touring model with the bigger brakes/tires and sport Air suspension. Watch out BMW! All those gizmos drove me nuts when I wanted to turn on the radio. i almost crashed into the car in front of me!!

Unfortunately to remove the Nav screen you will have to remove the radio below it and the wood pieces below that. You can use a pry bar (or a bracket covered with tape) to remove the lowermost piece; and then work your way upward. Click on this link to get my docs for my bluetooth install which will show you how to remove the wood trim. After you remove the wood pieces there are 2 10mm hex nuts that hold in the stereo and CD player; and 2 more that hold the nav screen and vents; I believe the plastic piece and the screen come out as a unit. I am starting to hear a squeak (sounds more like a crack) that I can't determine where it's coming from. There are also a bunch of rubber seals and gaskets that just may have to be lubricated; let us know if this cures the problem!

It took me a couple of weeks to really get used to my LS; and it was about 6" longer and 2" wider than the car I had before. I had that car for 12 years so I was REALLY used to it; I could parallel park it with one eye blindfolded and one hand tied behind my back. :) Give it time; the LS is worth it!

Agreed. You have to remember that CPO or not this is a used car; it has been on the road for a while. The tires and other maintenance items are not covered under new, used or any warranty; sooner or later these issues need attention. I guess you could have asked them to take care of that like nc211 said; but you are also paying for the assurance that if anything major breaks it will be covered. SW is also right the guys at lexus-parts are great; if you give them the VIN and proof of registration they will cut the key for you; maybe you can get your dealer to program it (mine did it for free). Once these issues are taken car of (you should still get them to fix the alignment) you're all set.

Welcome to the gang! The speakers and tires they may cover; but the coolant flush and alignment they may not. Even so though it's a CPO car so you might as well ask. That fluids flush is a 30,000 or 60,000 mile service item--they will be able to tell you the last time it was done to that car. Re: the DVD do some research and see if/when they updated the exits in your area. Apparently most of LA has not been updated since the 2004 update so for me an '05 or '06 DVD is not worth it. Other than that not much else to worry about. Did you get black or ecru interior?

Sorry Alexander you walked right into that one.... I should qualify that the German cars are limited to 130 mph in the US. I believe the only cars to be allowed to hit the standard Germanic 155mph here are the top-tier cars such as the 760Li and S(L & CL) 600/65/55. The original LS400 also could hit 150mph as sold here in the US. The 155mph limit was determined I believe so that a) the cars could be sold with tires that were not basically racing slicks, b ) to allow more powerful engines to be used without very tall gearsets, and c) because most of the time on the autobahn the cars can't go much faster anyway (at least not for sustained periods of time). Also I'm sure the extra engineering required for sustained running at speeds past that becomes very expensive; and I'm sure it's very hard on the car. Can you imagine an expansion joint at 175mph? probably feels like a speedbump. In other parts of the world I'm not sure if the 130mph limit is adhered to for Lexus cars or not; also the original Infiniti Q45 was clocked by C&D at 153-168mph; despite the fact that Infiniti claimed the car had a limiter.

I see subs come up on fleebay from time to time... Not sure if this one will fit; it's for a 98-00. There are a couple other ones up there. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/98-00-Lexus...sspagenameZWDVW

Here is the list from Lexus: http://lexusbluetooth.letstalk.com/product...=1&model=LS The only issue that I know of is that some smartphones (Blackberry) can't download the whole phonebook, you must either send the contacts one by one or enter them manually. My friend has had good luck with the Treo 650 and her Prius; which is basically the same system.

The thing about the LS is that sometimes it achieves seemingly impossible combinations; a pliant but firm ride that is not floaty; free of harshness but good control-- competence without attitude. Some may say that's a car lacking personality; but its personality is probably more subtle than some people realize or can appreciate. I think that many reviewers are looking for an angle; and with not much to complain about they have to pick something to rag on. :chairshot: I think it handles quite well; some cars 1/2 its size feel less secure. I haven't driven the A8 which is supposedly the car to beat in this class, (or the ABC equipped S550 which won the Car & Driver comparo), but I can't really say that the 750i or the S550 w/airmatic handle dramatically better than the LS460; and they don't ride as well either. I still don't remember any of the excessive body roll reported by C&D; and I doubt most people who buy these cars will drive them hard enough to notice. These reviews; especially the comparison tests; are a numbers game. Numbers don't really tell the whole story; but numbers are what they can prove. The BMW and Audi may score faster slalom times; but there is no number for the irritation you get when you drive over railroad tracks and your fillings shake--and that's something all drivers will notice. SW is right--to get much better handling the ride would be rock hard; and that's not what this car is about. Whatever...there's a car out there for everyone. The LS is for me.

That's a nice review; reaction in the states has not been universally as enthusiastic as this one. After the conversion that's about 10 grand more than the car costs in the US; but do they have VAT in Canada? With all the taxes and tags that car probably pushes the USD 100k in most US markets. It's a sobering reminder of how much more cars like this can cost elsewhere; I believe I saw somewhere that an LS430 was selling in Ireland for about 103,000 Euro....ouch. Honestly I don't think the hybrid will cost that much more; I think Lexus is wary of crossing the 100k mark. Now if they made that V12 Hybrid that Motortrend was talking about a few years back all bets are off. :)

Agreed. Also in '04+ you'll get the bluetooth with the NAV. Another plus; and the possibilty of the SmartEntry. There was however a recall on the '04 transmissions; make sure the car you consider has gone through it. The 130 mph limit is due to the ULEV specification more than the tires; apparently the unlimited cars in the UK and Europe can reach 160mph+. It could also be peer pressure; the german cars (except the very top end models) are also now limited to 130 mph. :( The Sport suspension is stiffer shocks and bushings (no air springs); and better tires (with the larger wheels, 17s or 18s depending on the year). You might be able to get a similar effect going with aftermarket shocks and I believe there are several bushing kits for the LS. They are VERY hard to find on the pre-owned market(I wanted one); I suspect many cars are not marked as such; you should see the little sport badges on the panel behind the front wheels. I ended up going with a UL car because (believe it or not) they were easier to find.

Congratulations and welcome to the club! :) The LS is a magnificent car. Fortunately the first major service on the LS is the 30,000 mile fluids change; which you're still a while away from. I think that's the best part about these cars; there's really nothing special or unusual required to maintain them. Just follow the maintenance schedule, and they seem to just go and go. In a couple years you may want to find an indie mechanic as some dealerships seem to charge an arm and a leg; but if you're comfortable with the dealer pricing then just enjoy the customer service, the loaner car, and the coffee machine in the lobby. The only downside is that will probably have to chase off all your friends and family however as you may become the defacto chauffeur once they get to ride around in it. I'm thinking about installing a meter somewhere

Smoke and fire? Uh no not normal... The LS400 uses an aramid-fibre reinforced timing belt. If you are seeing melting it's possible that your water pump is seizing up and stripping the teeth off the belt. I would have the car towed to a mechanic immediately...if it snaps it can ruin your engine. How many miles does the car have? The belt should be replaced at least every 90,000 miles...

Anybody seen this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSw4V9p2ZHU also in english (but not quite as long) Interesting...I wonder how that kind of campaign would play here.

Smart man...so far my only exposure was TOL..with NO sales people. Also I think Lexus/Toyota have special lease/finance deals at the end of the summer. I will have to remember to schedule my service apts to NOT coincide with that time :). I'm still curious to drive the hybrid...it's WAY too much money for me right now but it has a certain *it* factor.

I don't see why not; if they want the business and they know you are willing to wait. When I lived in PA my mom had a dealer ship a car from Washington DC in the color she wanted. Maybe you can try some dealerships in Atlanta or Savannah. That's a little closer; or just do the deal direct with the dealer and have them drop ship it--my friend's parents bought a car from a dealer in Michigan and had it drop shipped to Hawaii (they live in New York). The grey interior and wood is quite nice; the overall effect is more like marble than wood. It's exactly the same color/effect as the 01-03 grey UL LS430s. I have silver on black and I love it; but it does get hot if it sits in the sun (despite all those shades). Also a dealer told me it's the most sought-after color combo for the LS so it may be harder to find. They may also offer the ML as a standalone option for '08 if enough people ask; maybe some dealer will want to move an '07 and give you a deal (if there's any left). In the second and 3rd years more stuff seems to be available as standalone options. Why not?. If it doesn't cost anything I would. Use it as the guest car. I still drive my old Mercedes to work once a week; and to the grocery store and gym. I feel better parking it in tight spaces...the LS is a BEAST to park in those compact spots. :) I can only imagine the even larger 460 is a tighter fit.

Yeah they seem to 'front load' a lot of the more optioned cars into the allocation pool early; I remember something like 30% of the LS430s when they first arrived were the UL model. I put in zip codes for both NY and LA and i got the same 2 price points you got for the 460 SWB, however I put in Coral Gables FL (33133) and was presented with: Navigation System/Mark Levinson® Premium Audio System Package with Additional Options $7,435.00 Navigation System/Mark Levinson® Premium Audio System Package includes: - Lexus voice-activated HDD Navigation System with backup camera - Bluetooth® technology - XM® Satellite Radio and Real-Time Traffic capability - Mark Levinson® 19-speaker 450-watt @ 0.1% THD 20-20,000 Hz; Reference Surround Sound Audio System with Hard Disk Drive, 7.1 architecture and in-dash, single-feed, six-disc DVD/CD auto-changer featuring DVD-audio and DVD-video playback Additional Options: - Comfort Package - Intuitive Parking Assist So they still get you for a couple other options but much better than $11k. The car priced out at $69,150.00; they suggested Lexus of Kendall (which is actually just south of Coral Gables). There is also a HUGE new dealership i think in Homestead or somewhere nearby. Maybe you can get someone to do a dealer trade? Or you can always just do the deal over the phone and have them drop-ship the car to you--that destination charge covers any destination in the US. I would probably fly down and drive back myself...going up I-95 is actually quite a nice way to spend a weekend. It took me about 18 hours the last time I did it (from DC to Miami). Good luck! What color are you thinking?

Looking on MSN Autos there is an ML/Nav package (looks like the old Nav/Lev package, code NL) that lists for about $5600, is that the one you were talking about? Unfortunately the ML system doesn't seem to be a stand alone option anymore. I'm sure the standard system is fine; with 10 speakers I would guess you get single range drivers in each of the 3 dash positions; a subwoofer; and 2 drivers in each rear door and a driver in each front door. The ML system probably has better imaging and more linear response based on the greater number of drivers and possibly better materials (I believe that some of them are metal) and better crossovers; also the DSP processing is probably ML proprietary. The ML system also gives you more formats (DVD-A/V, MP3/WMA etc), XM and surround sound capability. I'm guessing you will probably have to special order a car to get it without the ML system...so that may or may not give the dealer incentive to try to get you to take something they have in inventory (assuming they have any sitting around) or in their allocation. My advice to you is to shop for the LS like a fine pair of stereo speakers. Take a couple of fairly well-mastered CDs that you really like and know well; choose the music you listen to most often. If you choose to burn a custom CD use good quality media, rip the songs either in uncompressed .wav or apple lossless compression, and then burn it at 1 or 2x. If you can find the cars at the same lot with and without the ML listen to them one after another, listen to them again (while driving if possible), and decide for yourself (and of course let us know what you think).