Camshaft Oil Seal - Simple Question & A Wild A** Question.

[threepwood]

1992 LS400, only 157k. Oil leaking out timing belt covers everywhere, hell of a mess. Oil stop leak additives have had zero affect. Valve cover gaskets were replaced less than 500 mile ago. i'm assuming camshaft seals. Question is simple, but need comment from someone who has been there. Does camshaft have to come out to replace seals or can it be done in place after belt gear removal? Answer will determine whether I do it myself or not.

Now the wild a** thought - Can the cam be sealed from the valve cover side (inside)? Oil up the shaft so sealant won't stick to it and then apply high temp RTV from the valve cover side? Would be one heck of a lot less work.

Many thanks for any insight you can give.

[landar]

No, the camshaft does not need to be taken out on a 92. We just got done replacing the cam seals in our 92 with a timing belt job. It is pretty easy, at least a whole lot easier than a 98 and up(which does require pulling the cam).

As to your wild thought, it could work but probably not for long. Best to just replace the original seal.

Now, I want to point out your statement "i'm assuming camshaft seals". Do not do that...assume. My first thought was "it probably isn't the cam seals".

I mean, it could be... but first locate the source by cleaning things up and looking carefully before proceeding. It could also be your front crankshaft seal leaking with the timing belt slinging it all over the place. Or your valve covers could still be leaking despite having just been replaced. Assume nothing, check everything. Another thing I would never advocate is Stop leak. Yuck, drain your oil and get that stuff out of there, what you can.

If you are close to being in need of a timing belt/water pump change, consider doing the entire job at once while everything is apart. It is really not that hard of a job.

[threepwood]

Many, many thanks. I will definitely take your advice, not buying any parts until i get things cleaned up and find the leak for sure

[sha4000]

landar def gives the best advice on this forum. Come back and let us know what the culprit turned out to be.

[threepwood]

First let me say there is oil everywhere on the lower half of the front of the engine. It is dripping off the AC compressor, the oil filter can, the alternator housing, etc. I assume the leak is being blown everywhere by the fan.

So I removed the time belt/distributor covers on both sides and found a dry timing belt but some small amount of oil inside. I also put enough of the car back together so I could run it and watch the camshaft seals, no leaks. watched valve covers also, no leaks. This leads me to believe maybe the main crank shaft seal on the bottom is leaking. So what I did was RTV'd a clear plastic hose to the open drain hole on the bottom plastic cover and ran it over to a collector (we're not going to talk about what that collector is, as you would laugh your butt off if I told you), expecting that after a week the collector would be saturated with oil. To my surprise, it is dry as a bone. No oil in the clear hose I used, no oil in the collector, but once again oil dripping off AC & Oil filter & alternator. Stop leak has done zero harm but also had zero effect. I have cleaned this thing up twice now and looked for leaks with no success. Any other thoughts would be appreciated. Dealer not an option, I would buy a Kia before I'd take it back to him.

[landar]

You know, Kias are not that bad anymore. :-). Next thing I would do is make certain that it is engine oil and not tranny fluid or something else. With the alternator being on the RH side of the engine and the AC/Oil filter being on the LH side of the engine, there appears to be a wide area of fluid. Like you said, being blown by the fan. That would indicate tranny fluid or possibly power steering fluid. There are not a lot of other areas that engine oil can leak out of, unless, maybe it is the oil pressure sensor.

[paulo57509]

Is the oil pressure sending switch in that general area or is it near the oil filter?

[threepwood]

oh, it's definitely oil. I have had to add a quart over the last 400 miles to make up for the leak. I have already gone thru the power steering issue leaking on the alternator. Both have been replaced. The PS rack 'leaks a little', so i'm always keeping an eye on the PS level. All other fluids are fine. I will go find the pressure sending unit tomorrow and check it out.

.

[landar]

I believe the oil pressure sensor is near the base of the oil filter. If it turns out that the sensor is not leaking and the source is still not obvious, I would thoroughly clean the oil off of the engine, run for a day and then recheck for a wet spot of oil. In a day of running, it should not have a chance to spread too far and you should be able to narrow it down. There is also a color dye that you can put in your oil that some mechanics use to pinpoint leaks. I think you use a black light to see it glow. For now, I think you can just clean it up, drive it and recheck. With a leak as severe as one quart/400 miles, it should be relatively easy to pinpoint the source.

[sha4000]

Have you done an oil change recently? The reason I ask is maybe the filter is not on there tight enough. I had that happen and it threw some oil around. If not that check your oil pan bolts to see if they stay dry after you clean it up.

[threepwood]

Well, I have followed the leak up the side of the engine using the UV dye. It would appear to be coming from the lower head bolt closest to the power steering pump. Or at least, that is what I believe the bolt to be. I have a picture which I have attached. Is it really possible for this head bolt to leak oil or am I just fooling myself because I don't really want to do the valve cover gaskets again (did them 6 months ago)?

[landar]

Well, that is not a head bolt in the traditional sense but it is some sort of plug and the casting appears to be broken on the top side. Can you verify that the top part of the hole is broken off or not? At least that's what is looks like in the pic.

[edit] Guess it is a head bolt. I was looking at it from the wrong perspective as a depression when it is actually raised.

[sha4000]

Can we get a pic from a little farther away to get some perspective on the placement of the leak?

[threepwood]

Ok, sorry, I am a terrible photographer with my phone. Attached is a pic from further away. Note I have cut the timing belt cover so it can be removed separately, that's why you see spark plug wires but there is still a cover over the plugs themselves. The area you think is broken off is actually a bead of high temp grey RTV I put down to try and isolate the leak from the above valve cover. Also, attached is a really bad (sorry again) pic of the cylinder head bolt installation page from the service manual. I think it's bolt #10, but I could be wrong.

[brybo86]

you need to take another pic, turn off the phone flash and use a separate light, if the phone screen isn't clear before the pic is taken it wont be after. If it wont focus try backing up more, and/or using zoom after backing up.

[threepwood]

I removed the bolt and it is dry as a bone. So it's not coming from there. I have cleaned every thing up again and I buttered up all of the plastic housings and rubber gaskets around the housings with RTV so as to force any oil inside where the timing belt is to come out the hole in the bottom and then I ran a hose from that hole over to a bottle OUTSIDE of the fan area. The bottle is filling slowly with oil and there hasn't been any oil leak on the ground since I did this. So I'm convinced it's the crankshaft seal because I can see the camshaft seals with the engine running and they are not leaking. I can only assume that the fan really blows things around and that's how it got up as high as the cylinder head bolt in the photo. So one last question, the book says lubricate the new seal with MP grease. I assume this means Multipurpose grease. Will wheel bearing grease be good enough? Thanks for all your help.

[landar]

You removed what bolt?

[threepwood]

You removed what bolt?

The cylinder head bolt in the previous photos.

[landar]

I was afraid you were going to say that. I would be concerned with removing a single head bolt and trying to get everything back to proper pressure(sealing-wise).

Did you buy a new bolt to replace the old one and torque it properly?

[threepwood]

I also, was very hesitant to loosen the 1 bolt. So this is what I did.

All work done with engine stone cold. Head of bolt was marked and is exactly back in it's original position by scribing before loosening. Interestingly enough the books recommendation of torqueing to 28 ft-lbs and then turning 90 degrees was short of the mark (by about 10-15 degrees) so I tightened it that little bit more to line up the marks. Car is running fine. Does the radiator really have to come out to replace that seal? That's what the book says. Seems to me I could get a puller in there to get the fan belt pulley off without removing radiator, but I could be wrong.

[landar]

The head bolts use what are called "stretch" threads. They stretch on the first torquing and are not to be used again. I am not surprised that your engine is running fine now. But someday in future, during WOT, you might lose a head gasket.

So, if you are talking about replacing the crankshaft seal, then yes, the radiator should come out. In fact, your timing belt will need to come off as well. Depending upon when you last changed the belt, I would just go ahead and do a complete timing belt and water pump service while in there.

[threepwood]

I am finally working on this to replace the crankshaft oil seal, Unfortunately, I can not find a bolt size that screws freely into the 2 threaded holes in the crankshaft belt pulley so I can pull it. My M8 x 1,25 screws from the puller set screw in 1 thread and stop hard, my M8 x 1,00 won't screw in at all. Anyone know for sure what size threaded hole these are?

[landar]

You say you have a puller set. Is this a loaner from a local auto store? If so, It could be that the screws are distorted or cross-threaded from previous users.

I bought a puller kit from Harbor Freight and found a pair of bolts that worked nicely but I do not know exactly what size they were. You might need to locate another kit and see if the bolts will work. I do not remember anything unusually about the size and thread.

http://www.harborfreight.com/bolt-type-wheel-puller-set-69889.html

[threepwood]

Thanks, there is a harbor freight just 3 miles from me. I'll give it a visit tomorrow.

[sha4000]

I have one of those puller sets from autozone and none of the bolts fit correctly either. I think i just forced the standard bolts as far as they could go since they seemed to be the closest fit.