Ems - Electronic Modulated Suspension

[SWoods]

Lexus ES300-2002 with EMS (a control option meant to adjust the damping effect on shock absorbers). Since warranty we have noticed, and reported, that there is a severe clunking noise when driving over rough/potholed/washboard like surfaces - the noise is harsher when set in 'Sport' mode and not quite as loud but still obvious in the other extreme setting "Comfort' mode - sounds and feels like there is no shock absorption activity. The dealership has heard the noise under driving conditions and although they agree that "....it shouldn't be there", they said it is not a safety issue and have refused to recognize that there is a problem and have not accepted responsibility to explore and/or fix this, nor will they admit that they have ever encountered the problem before. Other than this, the car is still in great condition and we would simply like to eliminate this discomfort issue. We are hoping there is another owner or someone, who may have experienced a similar problem, can tell us if there is a correction procedure. Thanks for any advice.

[kashi125]

What year car and how many miles?

[SWoods]

What year car and how many miles?

130, 000 KM (yr 2002).

[SW03ES]

The car is 8 years old and has 120,000 miles...why would the dealer or Lexus cover the repair or "accept responsibility"?!?

Lexus dealers are great for routine maintenance, but when you are dealing with an older car they don't really have all that much experience when it comes to diagnosing trouble spots. Most people have long since switched to a cheaper alternative by the time they start having age and wear related issues.

If I were you I would locate a good independent shop that specializes in Lexus or Japanese vehicles and take it there.

My '03 does not have the AVS suspension, cars with that are almost nonexistant on the east coast (I've actually never even seen one) but it does have 135k miles. At this mileage the suspension is still tight and rattle free but it does need lower control arm replacement due to worn bushings and I'm planning on having them replace the ball joints at the same time. This may be the issue with yours also. Could also be strut mounts...I know steviej replaced the upper strut mounts on his '02 when he had it...maybe he'll chime in here...

[homemechanic]

check the GS300 section. some of the 98-99 models have the EMS. ems is not very common in the ES300

[SWoods]

The car is 8 years old and has 120,000 miles...why would the dealer or Lexus cover the repair or "accept responsibility"?!?

Lexus dealers are great for routine maintenance, but when you are dealing with an older car they don't really have all that much experience when it comes to diagnosing trouble spots. Most people have long since switched to a cheaper alternative by the time they start having age and wear related issues.

If I were you I would locate a good independent shop that specializes in Lexus or Japanese vehicles and take it there.

My '03 does not have the AVS suspension, cars with that are almost nonexistant on the east coast (I've actually never even seen one) but it does have 135k miles. At this mileage the suspension is still tight and rattle free but it does need lower control arm replacement due to worn bushings and I'm planning on having them replace the ball joints at the same time. This may be the issue with yours also. Could also be strut mounts...I know steviej replaced the upper strut mounts on his '02 when he had it...maybe he'll chime in here...

[SWoods]

Sorry, but since we are not totally computer savvy, don't find this site always user friendly, we sometimes find it difficult to respond properly and timely .... however, the age and mileage of the car should be insignificant since the dealership has been aware of this noise since early in the warranty period - both sales and service had experienced the feel and sound of the noise several times, have admitted that "....it's not right", have recorded the complaint several times, but simply say that it is not a safety issue and there's nothing they can do about it - we believe that they are fully aware of the problem and since it is not a safety issue they don't want to own up to it; and so, for all intents the problem should still be under warranty and will be if we can present proof either from someone else's experience, or from a service bulletin, that they are in fact still responsible to correct the issue at their time and expense .... if we are 'p*****g in the wind' then please let us know that as well. This is our 3rd Lexus, all of which were always dealer serviced, and since loyalty has not returned loyalty, it will probably be our last. Thanks.

[camlex]

In future , NEVER buy with EMS.

[SWoods]

Thanks for such an informative response - any bridges that you suggest I be aware of?

[SW03ES]

No offense, but you're not likely to get much help here by being snippy. His statement was one that is valuable for people who are considering purchasing these vehicles to read. This is an enthusiast site that is populated by people who simply enjoy discussing these cars and helping people like you. If you don't want that help or don't like how our site is laid out we won't waste our leisure time trying to help you.

I think you are out of luck with this issue. The car is going on 8 years old, IMHO there is zero chance Lexus is going to cover this repair. Personally, I would have never been satisfied with the response that this is "not a safety issue" back when the car was under warranty. The warranty is not just to be sure the vehicle is operating safely, the suspension should be creak and squeak free...and if that dealer couldn't fix your issue I would have taken it elswhere. I had a similar issue with the steering rack on my Lexus, the first dealer gave me a response like that and I took it to another and made it clear I simply was not going to drive a $40,000 vehicle with a creak in the steering at low speeds under warranty. They replaced the whole steering rack under warranty and it was taken care of. Had I simply lived with it all these years I honestly wouldn't all of a sudden now at 135k miles and 7 years old decide I demanded it be fixed. The horse has long since left the barn on this one I think. You never know though, contact your dealer's service manager.

Live and learn...if you have issues under warranty...get them fixed when the car is under warranty. Don't just live with them for 8 years and decide all of a sudden you want to hold the manufacturer accountable for the issue.

[stcist2]

Have you investigated the possibility of replacing the EMS shocks/struts with nonEMS shocks/struts, and just disable the system..? If the dealership acknoleges the problem yet has not done anything to remedy it, would they be willing to give you blue book value on your vehicle on a trade for one that does not have this problem (ie;nonEMS)..? I can see how you are very frustrated about this as if it was my car I would be pretty *BLEEP*ed Off, to say the least...I mean common NOW you are told that an option which sounds good on paper , paid for as an added option, is something you should never do? a little late is it not? Have you considered getting an attorney and taking it to the next level? Or just sell the damned thing and buy a honda? I wouldn't blame you... Another option; contact some of the "better" Lexus dealers mentioned in this forum and see if they would be able to do something that would make you both happy? I really feel for you and hope that you find your way through this one...Merry Christmas?...

OTHER THREAD CLOSED..SO I RE-POSTED

[stcist2]

What year car and how many miles?

130, 000 KM (yr 2002).

I don't think that 130,000 KM= 120,000 miles. should be 60 0r 70,000 miles. right?

[SW03ES]

81,000 miles...even so, 4 years and 30,000 miles out of warranty...ain't gonna happen.

I would take the car to a good independent mechanic that knows these vehicles and have them look at it. I bet he can find the issue. It may even be something minor the Lexus dealer was just too dumb to find. Lexus dealers are good at changing oil...sometimes not a whole lot more than that.

[stcist2]

Sounds like some good advice..

[eatingupblacktop]

Since warranty we have noticed, and reported ... The dealership has heard the noise under driving conditions and although they agree that ".... it shouldn't be there", they said it is not a safety issue and have refused to recognize that there is a problem and have not accepted responsibility to explore and/or fix this, nor will they admit that they have ever encountered the problem before.

If they heard the noise and agreed that it "shouldn't be there", then they can't refuse responsibility to "explore and/or fix" the prob. It was also incumbent on you to force the required diagnosis and repair. There are many avenues available to you when your vehicle is under warranty.

No offense, but you're not likely to get much help here by being snippy. His statement was one that is valuable for people who are considering purchasing these vehicles to read. This is an enthusiast site that is populated by people who simply enjoy discussing these cars and helping people like you. If you don't want that help or don't like how our site is laid out we won't waste our leisure time trying to help you.

I think you are out of luck with this issue. The car is going on 8 years old, IMHO there is zero chance Lexus is going to cover this repair. Personally, I would have never been satisfied with the response that this is "not a safety issue" back when the car was under warranty. The warranty is not just to be sure the vehicle is operating safely, the suspension should be creak and squeak free...and if that dealer couldn't fix your issue I would have taken it elswhere. I had a similar issue with the steering rack on my Lexus, the first dealer gave me a response like that and I took it to another and made it clear I simply was not going to drive a $40,000 vehicle with a creak in the steering at low speeds under warranty. They replaced the whole steering rack under warranty and it was taken care of. Had I simply lived with it all these years I honestly wouldn't all of a sudden now at 135k miles and 7 years old decide I demanded it be fixed. The horse has long since left the barn on this one I think. You never know though, contact your dealer's service manager.

Live and learn...if you have issues under warranty...get them fixed when the car is under warranty. Don't just live with them for 8 years and decide all of a sudden you want to hold the manufacturer accountable for the issue.

By accepting (in the view of the dealer) the shortcomings in your vehicle while it was under warranty, they will no doubt claim (correctly imo) that you were satisfied with their explanations/diagnosis or whatever investigation was done at the time and are under no obligation to effect repairs now that the car is out of warranty. Basically, "ya snooze, ya loose"! Whether you feel this is poor service or customer relations, I doubt you now have any case for the dealer to make repairs free of charge.

However, the fact that you're a repeat Lexus buyer should have significant influence with this or any dealer. At this point, I would think of a compromise that you and the dealer can live with and see if you can't re-establish the good business relationship you both once had. After all you did buy more than one Lexus!

[SWoods]

Thanks so very much to everyone who has taken the time to respond - if I had known about this site a few years ago I probably wouldn't have put myself and husband through all of this frustration.

In spite of my husband's recommendations to speak to an independent garage, I have been loyal to our local dealership throughout the ownership of three (3) models, always following their recommended service schedule, and going to them for any minor repairs .... when I needed them most they did not stand behind me, even when I had written to and called Toyota/Lexus requesting a factory technician to personally observe the problem .... I was hoping that someone might have had a document and/or service bulletin that would prove it wasn't my exaggeration.

However, I will be looking for a new vehicle in this new year, and now convinced that it will be a change to BMW or Mercedes', and I will make sure that I find their owner support site from the get go.

Happy New Year!

[Lexusfreak]

SWoods,

What Lexus dealership are we talking about here (you can send me a PM if you do not want to mention the dealer publicly)? I own a 2005 ES 330 also with the AVS suspension options & with 100,000 Km's on it (the strange thing is I know it's a rare feature in our parts...but both ES's I have owned have had this feature). I have noticed too that when it's on the firmest setting (sport) that it is definately not the most comfortable setting on the streets of London Ontario (I live in St. Thomas & work in London) & the harshness is even worse in the cold winter months....so why put it on that setting?

One has to remember that our ES is not a sports sedan or high performance vehicle...the AVS feature is almost a moot point in our cars anyways....but at the same time, I did not pay any extra for it buying both of mine as CPO vehicles...I could care less if my next vehicle has this option or not...but I leave the settings between the second & third and to me, those settings are pretty close to what the non AVS equipped ES's ride like.

I service mine exclusively at Lexus of London & have for 2 years now...I find them to be fantastic overall.

One issue I did have right after I took delivery (and this should have been caught by the selling Lexus dealer in Brampton during the CPO inspection) was the steering knuckle required replacement & gave a clunking sound when going over potholes...this is a cronic problem with our generation ES (2002 - 2006)....have you had this part looked at & / or replaced?

Also I would suggest to have the rear suspension bushings checked out...the ones on my previous 2001 ES needed replacement after 115,000 Km's.....total parts & labour if memory serves...about $130.

[SWoods]

Thanks for speaking up. We live in London so that should answer your question.

I set my EMS/AVS suspension to the extreme 'comfort' zone which is not as noisy on regular road bumps and ruts, but will definitely let you know when driving over anything just a bit more severe.

During the warranty period this metallic 'clunk' 'rattle' noise was experienced by feel and sound on different occasions by both the service and sales managers when we went on test drives together - both admitted that it shouldn't feel or sound like it did; both said that shop techs could not find a technical or safety problem; and when I called Toyota/Lexus Canada to have a factory tech check it out they were dismissed by the dealership who told them they, the dealership, could not find a problem that warranted warranty, or any other work, and that a factory tech was unnecessary .... at subsequent service intervals I continued to mention this ongoing issue, and even though they admitted that it existed, they continued to tell me that it was not a problem, and NO, 'steering knuckle', etc, was not suggested .... I probably could have gone to the independent shops but I wasn't sure what they could do what a Lexus tech couldn't, and besides why should I have to spend what could turn into $100s of dollars and still not know the problem is fixed - it has been the dealership's responsibility from the beginning, because if others are aware of this issue then so are they, and this complaint has been on their books to prove it - you can imagine that I don't speak highly of them whenever I have the opportunity.

Until recently I have been loyal and happy with my Lexus', and have resisted the encouragement of two of my children, who own BMWs, to make the switch - and, there are other good cars and dealerships who would appreciate my loyalty.

[Lexusfreak]

At what mileage & time frame did you start noticing the problem you describe?

[SW03ES]

I don't think you will find BMW or Mercedes any different. You just plain can't decide now all of a sudden as old as it is that you demand it be repaired...you should have dug your heels in years and years ago...

There's more than one Lexus dealer in the world too.

I personally would take this as a learning experience rather than as something against Lexus. No carmaker is going to cover a repair on an 8 year old car...and they would be crazy to. Its unfortunate that you have lived with this issue for as long as you have...but that was your choice. I...and it sounds like your husband also...would have refused to do so. My car would have been repaired too...I guarantee that because it would not have left the dealer's lot until it was.

[SWoods]

For the record: it was first reported within the warranty period, then between and at all f/u service intervals, plus notice to T/Lexus corporate.

Well, it just so happens that I don't have a Lexus dealer around every corner, and having a busy and productive life does not allow me the luxury to dedicate precious time to an issue when I purchased a recognized quality vehicle from what should be a quality dealer.

Two children, both on their second BMWs with no existing problems with either the vehicle or the local dealership.

You, on the other hand, obviously have a great deal of time on your hands to be able to "dig in your heels'; so to respond to your point any further makes me feel like I am discussing this with the mother of the dealership owner (or maybe you are the service manager in disguise).

Too bad I didn't find this site a few years ago, however, obviously too late; so I will thank those that tried, and to you I will sign off.

[SW03ES]

I don't have a great deal of time on my hands, but when I spend $40,000 on something I DEMAND it operate properly. Lexus dealers give you loaners...all it takes me is time on the phone. The squeaky wheel gets the grease and my advice to you back then would have been to leave the thing there until it was fixed...or they replaced it. By continuing to buy into the BS they were feeding you and take possession of the car back you accepted their explanation and releaved them of the liability of fixing it. Thats nobody's fault but yours.

You try to make me out to be the no-life with tons of time on my hands? Because I demand excellence when I spend a ton of money on something? Hilarious.

The car is old now, may as well just give up on this and get on with your life, but if you think the situation would have been any different at another brand you are kidding yourself. The dealer and Lexus are going to do what all companies do, try and get out of having to spend money and time fixing issues for people like you who are willing to suffer for 8 years with a vehicle that is broken and keep on smiling and saying "Okay!" when they say nothing is wrong. BMW is going to do the same thing. The X Factor is you, either you just bend over and take it like you have or you stand up and REFUSE to accept that your very expensive luxury car clunks when you drive it. You should have acted like you are acting now 7 years ago and your vehicle would have been repaired. Just as mine was. I rode in a buddy's 2003 525i with 15,000 miles less than my ES300 which he spent $10,000 on last year in repairs. You're right though...BMW is the answer to all your problems.

100% your issue is a bad steering rack...just like it was on mine. Mine was replaced at 30k miles. Today that will cost so much you'll want to buy a new car.

And right...I'm the service manager at your dealer in disguise. I just pretended I lived in another country and posted here 15,000 times just to get one up on you. Thats exactly the situation.

Sorry to be a jerk about it, I realize I am, but the "oh woe is me" approach isn't reality here, and I call it like I see it.

[gbhrps]

I would have to agree that the problem has gone on for too long for you to expect that the dealership would accept any responsibility.

In addition, knowing that you are from London, and my having had dealings with the same dealership and having been less than impressed, I would suggest that you journey a little farther to Kitchener and see Heffner Lexus. We have been very impressed with our treatment with these people, and this is a two hour trip for us one way.

[SW03ES]

Remember though...she's too busy to help herself.