Rx Shudder - Totally Insane Problem - Freaking Me Out!

[SW03ES]

No problem!

[artbuc]

That troubles me- The "book" may show 16hrs. to remove and replace the complete front drive unit but that is ridiculous to R&R the trans. I can GUARANTEE you it didn't take them 16hrs. to do the work-not even close. My understanding is the original seals were of a little different design and maybe made of a rubber that couldn't take the heat as well. I believe those things were dealt with in the later seals. When I changed my DIL's I was somewhat surprised at how "cooked" the seal was. It was hard as a rock and had worn a groove in the crankshaft, which really concerned me. I used some emery paper to clean and smooth the CS and there has been NO leak in the 25k mi. since I did it and it was leaking quite a bit before that. The crankcases seem to run hot on these engines and I personally wonder if it wasn't more the material the seal was made of because I couldn't really tell any difference in the design of the new seal.

Regards, Roger

Roger, did you pull the trans all by yourself? Did you need a special lift and/or hoist? How long did it take? Thanks.

[mccldwll]

I subscribe to ALLDATADIY, and checked for warranty parts and labor for a rear main seal (on '05 RX330). Nothing given, but standard labor was 12.5 hours, and part was $23. Warranty time often around 80% of standard, which would put it at 10 hours.

[code58]

Roger, did you pull the trans all by yourself? Did you need a special lift and/or hoist? How long did it take? Thanks.

Artbuc- I had to be creative and was doing it at home. I have a 20' x 39' motorhome concrete pad in the back yard so I had plenty of room. The only way I could figure to do it was loosen everything that holds in or connects to the complete front drive unit. Then I removed the front bumper cover and used a heavy duty engine hoist with a chain around both front frame horns at the bumper reinforcement. I simply lifted the front of the body up about 4' in the air and left the complete drive unit on the ground, then put heavy duty stands under the frame rails at the cowl. I left everything together, the front sub frame, all suspension with struts, and complete engine with wiring loom attatched to the engine. (had to go inside and remove the computer to unplug the engine harness in order to leave it on the engine). I used a jack to bring the unit out from under the car which made it easy to work on. I changed the rear main seal (reason for the removal) and changed the torque converter seal while I had it apart. It wasn't leaking but the parts guy at Toyota suggested it and I'm glad he did. I had some other things I wanted to do at the time and it just made it easier for me to do it that way, working alone and no lift. (the guys in the dealership have it a lot easier) I removed the brake calipers and tied them up, removed the A/C comp. and tied it up, that way no brake bleeding and no A/C recharging. I only had to pull the transmission back far enough to get the rear main seal out and the TC out to replace the seal. Probably 12in. but I'm not sure exactly, then just shoved it back together and buttoned it up. The total time was more than the 10 hrs. but probably not 16 even under those adverse conditions. If I were doing it again I would do it the same way, given the circumstances.

[pauljcl]

Thank you all for your comments. You may recall that I had paid the $1600 requested for the repair, and had asked Lexus for some assistance on this. They have 'respectfully declined' to do anything. Consequently, I will 'respectfully decline' to purchase any other Lexus in the future, since they let the owner hang over a flawed design (seal and transmission) they have produced and sold. It's too bad: I was 'this' close to purchasing another RX for Miami, because I moved the old RX300 to MI, and need another one here. I'll let the salesman know today my respectful decision. Good luck to all!

Paul

[blk_on_blk]

Aww, that's too bad you're ruling out the RX. I agree it sucks to replace the rear main seal earlier than you would think, but many of us have gone way passed the 100K mark without any real leaking from the rear main seal. I was disappointed to have the tranny in our '99 go out at 125K, and when it went, it went fast... but then again it went 125K with no real problems (that I know of), and the rest of the vehicle has been rock solid. Every vehicle will have issues, for they are a complex mix of mechanical and electrical systems. I'd just hate to see you throw out the baby with the bathwater over one distasteful experience. Yes, you had low miles, but then your (mine, too) vehicle is nearly 10 years old. Any manufacturer is going to be hard-pressed to step up and warranty something after that much time. It is exceptionally disappointing when I hear stories of individuals who religiously take their vehicle to the dealership and pay out-their-backside for ridiculous maintenance, and then when something goes wrong the dealership washes their hands of it. Not my idea of customer service, and I've heard the level of customer service varies dramatically between dealerships (even of the same make, but don't foolishly think other car makers have any better customer service from their dealerships).

For me, I figure I'm on my own when purchasing a used vehicle (although it's a different story if I were to buy a new vehicle), and I'm on my own to find a good shop, regardless if it's a dealership or not. There are some good dealerships out there, but I'm convinced there are more good shops. The shop we bring our Lexus's to is excellent... not the cheapest, but they stand behind everything are thorough and accurate. The $1600 for your repair was high, but that' more of a problem with the dealership and their customer service, not so much the product (but then I wouldn't bring an older out-of-warranty vehicle to a dealership; as soon as the warranty was expired, I'd be having any work done at a private shop). What I'm getting at is that I would just hate to see you discard the RX over this, for from all my research, one would be hard-pressed to find a vehicle with the RX's ride, features, comfort, performance, style, and more at the same price (although I'm referring to 5+ year-old vehicles... for the newer vehicles are really catching up to the RX in all aspects, even the Hyundai VeraCruz).

[pauljcl]

Aww, that's too bad you're ruling out the RX. I agree it sucks to replace the rear main seal earlier than you would think, but many of us have gone way passed the 100K mark without any real leaking from the rear main seal. I was disappointed to have the tranny in our '99 go out at 125K, and when it went, it went fast... but then again it went 125K with no real problems (that I know of), and the rest of the vehicle has been rock solid. Every vehicle will have issues, for they are a complex mix of mechanical and electrical systems. I'd just hate to see you throw out the baby with the bathwater over one distasteful experience. Yes, you had low miles, but then your (mine, too) vehicle is nearly 10 years old. Any manufacturer is going to be hard-pressed to step up and warranty something after that much time. It is exceptionally disappointing when I hear stories of individuals who religiously take their vehicle to the dealership and pay out-their-backside for ridiculous maintenance, and then when something goes wrong the dealership washes their hands of it. Not my idea of customer service, and I've heard the level of customer service varies dramatically between dealerships (even of the same make, but don't foolishly think other car makers have any better customer service from their dealerships).

For me, I figure I'm on my own when purchasing a used vehicle (although it's a different story if I were to buy a new vehicle), and I'm on my own to find a good shop, regardless if it's a dealership or not. There are some good dealerships out there, but I'm convinced there are more good shops. The shop we bring our Lexus's to is excellent... not the cheapest, but they stand behind everything are thorough and accurate. The $1600 for your repair was high, but that' more of a problem with the dealership and their customer service, not so much the product (but then I wouldn't bring an older out-of-warranty vehicle to a dealership; as soon as the warranty was expired, I'd be having any work done at a private shop). What I'm getting at is that I would just hate to see you discard the RX over this, for from all my research, one would be hard-pressed to find a vehicle with the RX's ride, features, comfort, performance, style, and more at the same price (although I'm referring to 5+ year-old vehicles... for the newer vehicles are really catching up to the RX in all aspects, even the Hyundai VeraCruz).

Thank you for your kind comments... I am really touched that you care (and that you care about Lexus too). But I have owned cars for 45 years, have rallyed cars, have driven some of the best (and the worst) cars, and I have never ever had a rear engine seal 'go'. Other things break, yes, particularly when you stress them, including engine parts and you end up with a 'blown' motor. Head gaskets - long time ago - yes. But the engine seal? never! And this is supposed to be a reliable, not-hotted up, everyday use engine. So, 60,000 miles, 'tender' use, and a blown engine seal is unacceptable. If it were only me, then you can blame it onto a very very unfortunate 'lemon', but, given all I have read on the engine seal (and the transmission), there is no doubt that the design is flawed - and I haven't even brought up the engine 'sludge' problem. I always take super care of my car (and all my possessions), and I can see that Lexus (and by extension, Toyota) do not. Would I have had a better response from MB or BMW (or other cars I have owned or still own)? Don't know. But the problem did not occur. So I have to believe they were better designed. We are in 'free' markets, and if Lexus chooses not to assist, I will not assist them either since they don't support their engineering; and I can find a replacement product made by someone else.

As I said earlier, it's too bad. Their cars are attractive. The sizzle is great. In my case, however, the steak doesn't taste good. But I am sure they will do very well without me and those people I know who value my opinion being part of their customer base.

Again: thanks for your nice comments.

Paul

[blk_on_blk]

Well, just as a reference, if you do look to another vehicle/make/model, www.carsurvey.org is a pretty 'open' arena for people to voice their opinions and experiences with vehicles. I did a lot of research before picking the RX300, but you can see there are many people not happy with them either. I was looking at MB, Acura, and other manufactures... each have their own 'horror stories', but for the most part one can see a pattern of key failures (such as A/C compressors repeatedly blowing up on certain model years of Honda CR-V's... they got a bad batch from their supplier). Which ever way you decide to go, this might be a good resource for you.

[pauljcl]

Well, just as a reference, if you do look to another vehicle/make/model, www.carsurvey.org is a pretty 'open' arena for people to voice their opinions and experiences with vehicles. I did a lot of research before picking the RX300, but you can see there are many people not happy with them either. I was looking at MB, Acura, and other manufactures... each have their own 'horror stories', but for the most part one can see a pattern of key failures (such as A/C compressors repeatedly blowing up on certain model years of Honda CR-V's... they got a bad batch from their supplier). Which ever way you decide to go, this might be a good resource for you.

Thank you so much, blk_on_blk. I'll look at that website.... very thoughtful of you. I'll let you know what I do.

[code58]

Thank you so much, blk_on_blk. I'll look at that website.... very thoughtful of you. I'll let you know what I do.

pauljcl- I really don't blame you for feeling the way you do, for the care you have taken of the RX and the manufacturer not participating at all. I was in business at one time and my experience is that goodwill never cost you- it pays. For those that take advantage of you, there are always more that are a customer for life when they are treated well. But allas, the bean counters run this world (don't you ever doubt it) and that is what we are on the receiving end of.

Concerning the seal- i still think it was not a design flaw but a material flaw. Maybe the supplier used a cheaper rubber than Lexus spec'd. or maybe Lexus wasn't aware under controlled testing that the crankcase would run as hot as it does in the RX's. This engine is used in several other Toyota vehicles, do any of them have the rear main seal problem in those years? That seal was like a rock- absolutely cooked! and my understanding is that is always the case on these RX's when they leak. It wore a grove in the C/S. Fortunately it hasn't seemed to affect the seal- no leaks at all in 25k mi. Good Luck in whatever your choice is. I would be very careful though, there are a lot of problems in other "high line" brands also. :)

[pauljcl]

Yes, problems in all brands, of course, but this is 'basic', and Lexus gave not even a token of care. They reminded me to have the car serviced every 5K miles!..

I am sure you are right: the problem is the quality of the material of the seal. However, there is no way that Toyota cannot have known the crankcase runs hot (if it does do so), since any testing would show it. My RX was never loaded/stressed close to max, always light usage, no towing etc... Maybe the 'hot' crankcase is partly to blame for the possible overheating, thus overstressed transmission (though mine never overheated). An easy fix or retrofix would have been to add 'fins' or water-fins. Obviously, I am not the first to suffer from this (nor the last, I assume),and, along with the transmission risks, it makes the RX a somewhat flawed design, engineering-wise. Someone - on a post elsewhere - made the comment that newer RXs did not suffer as much from these problems precisely because they were newer, and he(she?) believed that the problems would occur as the vehicules age/accumulate more miles. Who knows? I'm not willing to be a guinea-pig. Been thee, done that, bought the tee-shirt!

It's rfeally too bad, because I think the RX 'cocnept' is great: luxury overtones on a basic structure, a sizzle of luxury. But, as I wrote earlier, no steak: compare a glove-box lid on an MB to one a Lexus. Yes, the MB is overkill, but I have never had anyone complain they could not get it to close well.....

Anyway, I really enjoy your (and lenore's and blk_on_blk's) comments and knowledge. Yes, Lenore, I too in my youth enjoyed drives, but not i n the Pyrenees but on the corniches of the Cote d'Azur, TR-5A (the IRS one!) and Lotus Elans. Also tiny Fiat 600/750 Abarth. Great times, less people, more fun! I will continue reading your postings with interest... Blk_on_blk - I looked at the "carsurvey.org" site. Thanks for the ref. Looks interesting, specially when one's choice is close to made

Best regards to all

Paul

[code58]

Yes, problems in all brands, of course, but this is 'basic', and Lexus gave not even a token of care. They reminded me to have the car serviced every 5K miles!..

I am sure you are right: the problem is the quality of the material of the seal. However, there is no way that Toyota cannot have known the crankcase runs hot (if it does do so), since any testing would show it. My RX was never loaded/stressed close to max, always light usage, no towing etc... Maybe the 'hot' crankcase is partly to blame for the possible overheating, thus overstressed transmission (though mine never overheated). An easy fix or retrofix would have been to add 'fins' or water-fins. Obviously, I am not the first to suffer from this (nor the last, I assume),and, along with the transmission risks, it makes the RX a somewhat flawed design, engineering-wise. Someone - on a post elsewhere - made the comment that newer RXs did not suffer as much from these problems precisely because they were newer, and he(she?) believed that the problems would occur as the vehicules age/accumulate more miles. Who knows? I'm not willing to be a guinea-pig. Been thee, done that, bought the tee-shirt!

It's rfeally too bad, because I think the RX 'cocnept' is great: luxury overtones on a basic structure, a sizzle of luxury. But, as I wrote earlier, no steak: compare a glove-box lid on an MB to one a Lexus. Yes, the MB is overkill, but I have never had anyone complain they could not get it to close well.....

Anyway, I really enjoy your (and lenore's and blk_on_blk's) comments and knowledge. Yes, Lenore, I too in my youth enjoyed drives, but not i n the Pyrenees but on the corniches of the Cote d'Azur, TR-5A (the IRS one!) and Lotus Elans. Also tiny Fiat 600/750 Abarth. Great times, less people, more fun! I will continue reading your postings with interest... Blk_on_blk - I looked at the "carsurvey.org" site. Thanks for the ref. Looks interesting, specially when one's choice is close to made

Best regards to all

Paul

Paul- I don't think it's the "engine" (cooling system) that runs hot, I believe it's the crankcase. There's the difference. It may be because the engine is pulling about 600lbs. more weight than in a Camry, for instance. I don't believe the factory testing is "real world" enough. Even though they may as engineers test to specific standards, put it in the hands of the average stressed, overworked, hard driving, high miles driver and you'll find the weak spots that strictly factory testing won't find. If it weren't true, we wouldn't have all of these problems showing up when they get in production and in the hands of the person I just described. My DIL's RX has never been run hard, never towed or carried heavy loads and has not had perfect care but certainly good care. When I removed the front valve cover and the lower pan to take a look at 120k+ mi. I found throughout the engine in random "spots" "coked" (cooked, cinderized) deposits as a result of oil being literally cremated as in a self cleaning oven onto random surfaces in the engine. That and the rock hard seal are the reasons I say I think the crankcase runs hot. I have never seen that in an engine before, and the engine has always had regular oil changes with good oil. Good Luck in whatever your decision is!

By the way, there are a lot of reasons that the later RX's haven't experienced the same problems that the early ones have, and they probably won't- but that's a whole 'nother story.

[pauljcl]

Yes, problems in all brands, of course, but this is 'basic', and Lexus gave not even a token of care. They reminded me to have the car serviced every 5K miles!..

I am sure you are right: the problem is the quality of the material of the seal. However, there is no way that Toyota cannot have known the crankcase runs hot (if it does do so), since any testing would show it. My RX was never loaded/stressed close to max, always light usage, no towing etc... Maybe the 'hot' crankcase is partly to blame for the possible overheating, thus overstressed transmission (though mine never overheated). An easy fix or retrofix would have been to add 'fins' or water-fins. Obviously, I am not the first to suffer from this (nor the last, I assume),and, along with the transmission risks, it makes the RX a somewhat flawed design, engineering-wise. Someone - on a post elsewhere - made the comment that newer RXs did not suffer as much from these problems precisely because they were newer, and he(she?) believed that the problems would occur as the vehicules age/accumulate more miles. Who knows? I'm not willing to be a guinea-pig. Been thee, done that, bought the tee-shirt!

It's rfeally too bad, because I think the RX 'cocnept' is great: luxury overtones on a basic structure, a sizzle of luxury. But, as I wrote earlier, no steak: compare a glove-box lid on an MB to one a Lexus. Yes, the MB is overkill, but I have never had anyone complain they could not get it to close well.....

Anyway, I really enjoy your (and lenore's and blk_on_blk's) comments and knowledge. Yes, Lenore, I too in my youth enjoyed drives, but not i n the Pyrenees but on the corniches of the Cote d'Azur, TR-5A (the IRS one!) and Lotus Elans. Also tiny Fiat 600/750 Abarth. Great times, less people, more fun! I will continue reading your postings with interest... Blk_on_blk - I looked at the "carsurvey.org" site. Thanks for the ref. Looks interesting, specially when one's choice is close to made

Best regards to all

Paul

Paul- I don't think it's the "engine" (cooling system) that runs hot, I believe it's the crankcase. There's the difference. It may be because the engine is pulling about 600lbs. more weight than in a Camry, for instance. I don't believe the factory testing is "real world" enough. Even though they may as engineers test to specific standards, put it in the hands of the average stressed, overworked, hard driving, high miles driver and you'll find the weak spots that strictly factory testing won't find. If it weren't true, we wouldn't have all of these problems showing up when they get in production and in the hands of the person I just described. My DIL's RX has never been run hard, never towed or carried heavy loads and has not had perfect care but certainly good care. When I removed the front valve cover and the lower pan to take a look at 120k+ mi. I found throughout the engine in random "spots" "coked" (cooked, cinderized) deposits as a result of oil being literally cremated as in a self cleaning onto random surfaces in the engine. That and the rock hard seal are the reasons I say I think the crankcase runs hot. I have never seen that in an engine before, and the engine has always had regular oil changes with good oil. Good Luck in whatever your decision is!

By the way, there are a lot of reasons that the later RX's haven't experienced the same problems that the early ones have, and they probably won't- but that's a whole 'nother story.

Could you tell me, in a nutshell, why you believe the later RXs won't experience the same problems?

I am perfectly in tune with your explanation of 'hot' crankcase - of course, yes, it si not the same as a 'hot' engine - and of the hardened seal material. It would explain the appearance/'look' of the leak, which was 'along' the visible portion of the seal rather than at a localized spot. I am not familiar with the usual apparent thickness of the seal or I could comment on that, and I also doubt Toyota left the old seal for me in the car, which would allow me to check its resilience and flexibility, which would allow me to confirm your theory.

I had - a long long time ago - been allowed into the Alfa-Romeo factories in Milano, long before they were absorbed by Fiat. They showed me part of the testing they do, and that of the engines (which were their pride). They had sensors all over the engine! They knew the temp. of every section of it! So, I believe Toyota knew the temp of every part of the RX300 engine, and, either by a supplier missing specs. or by faulty design, sold vehicles with seals not up to the stress they were to bear.

Re: your engine oil 'coking' - you've just got to use full synthetic in the hope it will reduce the problem.

Thanks again for all your comments!

Best...

Paul

[code58]

Could you tell me, in a nutshell, why you believe the later RXs won't experience the same problems?

I am perfectly in tune with your explanation of 'hot' crankcase - of course, yes, it si not the same as a 'hot' engine - and of the hardened seal material. It would explain the appearance/'look' of the leak, which was 'along' the visible portion of the seal rather than at a localized spot. I am not familiar with the usual apparent thickness of the seal or I could comment on that, and I also doubt Toyota left the old seal for me in the car, which would allow me to check its resilience and flexibility, which would allow me to confirm your theory.

I had - a long long time ago - been allowed into the Alfa-Romeo factories in Milano, long before they were absorbed by Fiat. They showed me part of the testing they do, and that of the engines (which were their pride). They had sensors all over the engine! They knew the temp. of every section of it! So, I believe Toyota knew the temp of every part of the RX300 engine, and, either by a supplier missing specs. or by faulty design, sold vehicles with seals not up to the stress they were to bear.

Re: your engine oil 'coking' - you've just got to use full synthetic in the hope it will reduce the problem.

Thanks again for all your comments!

Best...

Paul

Paul- from what I have read the crankcase ventilation was actually the major problem that caused the sludge and jelling problems in the 3.0 toyota engine. As in inadequate ventilation. I have read tons on this from when it first started- especially on the Toyota site. Little old grandma's with low miles, changed at the dealer every 3k mi., engine gone and being told they didn't change the oil often enough. Anyone who has done any amount of reading on this problem knows now that wasn't the problem. I believe the inadequate CC ventilation probably ADDED to the "overworked" situation caused by carrying quite a bit more weight than it reasonably should have as a result of basically using a car engine in a "truck". Know you guys don't like your $45k Suv's being called a truck but that's what the industry calls them. I also think you may give them (engineers and the companies that hire them) just a tad more credit for being totally on top of things than they SOMETIMES deserve- or we wouldn't have the problems showing up after a vehicle is put into production that we see. To cover the second part of my comment on not seeing near the problems showing up on the later RX's that did on the early ones. I don't know when they went to drive-by-wire in the RX but my wifes '02 Camry has it so I assume the RX did by then. You can do wonders in controlling things through a computer that you can't do with cables. I don't know what if anything they might have beefed up in the tranny (I hope they did), but I do know for a fact they do subtle management through the computer to take the strain off of the transmission when it shifts. Reduction of throttle and retarding spark at the moment of shift that is subtle enough you don't notice it but reduces strain and therefore wear (and even thereby engine heat). There are a lot of other little tricks, through the magic of the computer, that taken all together add up. My knowledge is limited but these are just some of the reasons i said i didn't believe the newer RX's would manifest the problems that plagued SOME of the earlier ones. I could elaborate more on what manufacturers and their engineers find out in the real world AFTER they have produced the 1st. vehicles but that's for another book! LOL :)

Good point on the synthetic oil- ESPECIALLY on the RX!

[SW03ES]

Paul, Its an old car. You can't expect Lexus to cover a repair on a 10 year old car, its just not a reasonable expectation.

If you want to take your business elsewhere you should do that, but no company would have covered a repair on a car that old, nor should they.

A seal going bad over 10 years of use is not out of line if you ask me. Did you ever take the car to an independent mechanic and see what they would charge you to replace the seal?

I've had cars that old that had much bigger things go wrong...

[pauljcl]

Paul, Its an old car. You can't expect Lexus to cover a repair on a 10 year old car, its just not a reasonable expectation.

If you want to take your business elsewhere you should do that, but no company would have covered a repair on a car that old, nor should they.

A seal going bad over 10 years of use is not out of line if you ask me. Did you ever take the car to an independent mechanic and see what they would charge you to replace the seal?

I've had cars that old that had much bigger things go wrong...

Hi Steve!

Nope - did not check elsewhere (indie) for repair, since I was in TC for just a couple of days and Toyota was the obvious and I had noone else I could check/trust. I am sure they went by the 'book', and I fully acknowledge that the 'book' is usually a rip-off of the client. Nonetheless, I still believe a nine-year old engine seal - or a fifteen-year old engine seal for that matter - with less than 70K miles should not leak. We are not talking rocket science here, and I stand to be corrected, but I know nobody else with any other car make that had an engine seal 'go' - Ever - IMHO, Lexus could at least have made a gesture - this is not 'normal' wear and tear. If it is not abnormal w & t for a Lexus, then I have been in the wrong car make. In fact, the engine seal doesn't 'wear'.

Of course, s--t happens. But it seems to happen a lot on the RX. Reading about sludge, transmission problems, exhaust manifold cracks (is this the RX too?), now the engine seal... Phew! What I seem to have is not just transportation, it is an annuity for the Lexus dealer!

But my complaining is over. Got it off my chest.

Thanks!

Paul

[pauljcl]

Paul- from what I have read the crankcase ventilation was actually the major problem that caused the sludge and jelling problems in the 3.0 toyota engine. As in inadequate ventilation. I have read tons on this from when it first started- especially on the Toyota site. Little old grandma's with low miles, changed at the dealer every 3k mi., engine gone and being told they didn't change the oil often enough. Anyone who has done any amount of reading on this problem knows now that wasn't the problem. I believe the inadequate CC ventilation probably ADDED to the "overworked" situation caused by carrying quite a bit more weight than it reasonably should have as a result of basically using a car engine in a "truck". Know you guys don't like your $45k Suv's being called a truck but that's what the industry calls them. I also think you may give them (engineers and the companies that hire them) just a tad more credit for being totally on top of things than they SOMETIMES deserve- or we wouldn't have the problems showing up after a vehicle is put into production that we see. To cover the second part of my comment on not seeing near the problems showing up on the later RX's that did on the early ones. I don't know when they went to drive-by-wire in the RX but my wifes '02 Camry has it so I assume the RX did by then. You can do wonders in controlling things through a computer that you can't do with cables. I don't know what if anything they might have beefed up in the tranny (I hope they did), but I do know for a fact they do subtle management through the computer to take the strain off of the transmission when it shifts. Reduction of throttle and retarding spark at the moment of shift that is subtle enough you don't notice it but reduces strain and therefore wear (and even thereby engine heat). There are a lot of other little tricks, through the magic of the computer, that taken all together add up. My knowledge is limited but these are just some of the reasons i said i didn't believe the newer RX's would manifest the problems that plagued SOME of the earlier ones. I could elaborate more on what manufacturers and their engineers find out in the real world AFTER they have produced the 1st. vehicles but that's for another book! LOL :)

Good point on the synthetic oil- ESPECIALLY on the RX!

Very interesting. My Rx seems to have a pretty good up-shifting pattern. Some kind of RPM management (probably through the timing) is in place and works well. I'll try a newer one and see whether that seems improved. Thanks!

[For some reason, I cannot 'reply' to your post, it says the number of quote marks is not correct or something similar - strange!]

[code58]

Very interesting. My Rx seems to have a pretty good up-shifting pattern. Some kind of RPM management (probably through the timing) is in place and works well. I'll try a newer one and see whether that seems improved. Thanks!

[For some reason, I cannot 'reply' to your post, it says the number of quote marks is not correct or something similar - strange!]

Hi Paul- Concerning the "reply"- just like you see on this "quote", when I deleted my looong post I had to add the "quote" at the top for it to carry it over. Otherwise it doesn't recognize it as a quote.

What I was passing on was what I had read about the engineers trying to solve some of the problems with the RX and still not totally redesigning transmission and were able to do some desirable things with the engine at the same time. What they are able to do through the magic of computers is pretty incredible. The computer management, while doing what they wanted, should be undetectable to the average driver. Though there was plenty of computer involvement before, once you go to drive-by-wire you greatly increase the capabilities over cable operated. With cruise control, you now have no servo or cable connection. All done with electronics feeding the little throttle body motor, same route as the signal is fed from the accelerator potentiometer. The beauty of it for the engineers is being able to do multiple things all at once seamlessly and all you have to do is tell your programmers what you want, they write and you download and go for a ride. My understanding is these changes were made specifically to solve the existing problems.

[pauljcl]

Yes, I believe I have a pretty full 'drive-by-wire' set-up with the BMW, and it is amazingly 'transparent' to the driver, apart from working extremely well. The accelerator feels in direct contact with the throttle body, lag-free. I lent the car to a friend, was in the passenger seat, and he was using the 'manual' shift of the auto transmission. With closed eyes (which I usually avoid when driving myself !) you could swear he was the greatest driver in the world - smooth up-shifting, perfect rev. matching when down-shifting.... very impressive!

[still having a problem with 'number of qote tags' - even when I add or subtract from them]

[code58]

Yes, I believe I have a pretty full 'drive-by-wire' set-up with the BMW, and it is amazingly 'transparent' to the driver, apart from working extremely well. The accelerator feels in direct contact with the throttle body, lag-free. I lent the car to a friend, was in the passenger seat, and he was using the 'manual' shift of the auto transmission. With closed eyes (which I usually avoid when driving myself !) you could swear he was the greatest driver in the world - smooth up-shifting, perfect rev. matching when down-shifting.... very impressive!

[still having a problem with 'number of qote tags' - even when I add or subtract from them]

Paul- reference my post right above yours. I hit "reply and it brought my long post along and I didn't want to eat so much space so I highlighted it and deleted. That leaves me a "quote" shy at the top so I just type that in and then it transports the quote to your post. I'm not very computer literate so there may be a way to do it and retain the quote box but I don't know how to accomplish that.

Yes, I can believe that your BMW would make max use of the "Magic" of computers in todays cars. I think the current use of electronics, micro motors, computers and all the rest of that field is a dream come true for the engineers. I believe even aircraft are going to totally fly-by-wire- eliminating cables. I'm not surprised, when computers were 1st. introduced to cars I expected absolute nightmares, given the frailty of computers but that has for the most part been proven baseless. I am amazed at the toughness of computers in cars, given what they have to endure in incredibly adverse conditions around the world. Magic- in a little box! :)

P.S. Type the "quote" exactly as you see it on the screen.

[pauljcl]

Yes, I believe I have a pretty full 'drive-by-wire' set-up with the BMW, and it is amazingly 'transparent' to the driver, apart from working extremely well. The accelerator feels in direct contact with the throttle body, lag-free. I lent the car to a friend, was in the passenger seat, and he was using the 'manual' shift of the auto transmission. With closed eyes (which I usually avoid when driving myself !) you could swear he was the greatest driver in the world - smooth up-shifting, perfect rev. matching when down-shifting.... very impressive!

[still having a problem with 'number of qote tags' - even when I add or subtract from them]

Paul- reference my post right above yours. I hit "reply and it brought my long post along and I didn't want to eat so much space so I highlighted it and deleted. That leaves me a "quote" shy at the top so I just type that in and then it transports the quote to your post. I'm not very computer literate so there may be a way to do it and retain the quote box but I don't know how to accomplish that.

Yes, I can believe that your BMW would make max use of the "Magic" of computers in todays cars. I think the current use of electronics, micro motors, computers and all the rest of that field is a dream come true for the engineers. I believe even aircraft are going to totally fly-by-wire- eliminating cables. I'm not surprised, when computers were 1st. introduced to cars I expected absolute nightmares, given the frailty of computers but that has for the most part been proven baseless. I am amazed at the toughness of computers in cars, given what they have to endure in incredibly adverse conditions around the world. Magic- in a little box! :)

P.S. Type the "quote" exactly as you see it on the screen.

They are a lot more expensive to replace than a cable, though, and bad diagnostics just point to replacement, not repair. I regret the time when, providing you had a screwdriver, a pair of pliers, and a sufficient supply of paper clips, you could repair most problems, particularly those occurring from Lucas, Prince of Darkness. But, yes, reliability is so much improved that one takes it for granted now. Also so much less variability from unit to unit. That's progress - we need new toys!

[SW03ES]

I've heard of engine and transmission seals going on cars in that age range on a number of makes of vehicles. Lets just say when they replaced mine at 90k, I wasn't real surprised. A rear main seal leak is not an uncommon occurance on an older car. Its not really a mileage thing as much as a degredation due to age thing.

I would take the car somewhere else. That old IMHO you're really shooting yourself in the foot having anything done by the dealer. I would find a good independent shop that specializes in Lexus vehicles, or japanese vehicles in general. I just found one, and I enjoy using the dealer but my car is getting old and I've decided its time to save some bucks, and independent shops are actually better at diagnosing things than the dealers because they routinely work on older cars.

I bet you can save a lot...

[code58]

They are a lot more expensive to replace than a cable, though, and bad diagnostics just point to replacement, not repair. I regret the time when, providing you had a screwdriver, a pair of pliers, and a sufficient supply of paper clips, you could repair most problems, particularly those occurring from Lucas, Prince of Darkness. But, yes, reliability is so much improved that one takes it for granted now. Also so much less variability from unit to unit. That's progress - we need new toys!

Lucas, Prince of Darkness- I like that, Paul. How very true. I always heard that if you bought a British car, you bought 2. That way you would always have 1 to drive when the other was in the shop. LOL :)

[pauljcl]

I've heard of engine and transmission seals going on cars in that age range on a number of makes of vehicles. Lets just say when they replaced mine at 90k, I wasn't real surprised. A rear main seal leak is not an uncommon occurance on an older car. Its not really a mileage thing as much as a degredation due to age thing.

I would take the car somewhere else. That old IMHO you're really shooting yourself in the foot having anything done by the dealer. I would find a good independent shop that specializes in Lexus vehicles, or japanese vehicles in general. I just found one, and I enjoy using the dealer but my car is getting old and I've decided its time to save some bucks, and independent shops are actually better at diagnosing things than the dealers because they routinely work on older cars.

I bet you can save a lot...

You obviously have more experience (re: seals) than I have - I don't know any car (other than this Lexus model) where the rear engine seals 'go' (even when engines overheated), so I'm on track with the 'hot crankcase/hardened material' theory. Be that as it may, you are certainly very right in the need to find a good mechanic, whether independent or dealer, that is not too expensive. It is the dream of the owner of every older car. Not so easy, though. The obvious answer is to go with long(er) warranties and newer cars....

[pauljcl]

Lucas, Prince of Darkness- I like that, Paul. How very true. I always heard that if you bought a British car, you bought 2. That way you would always have 1 to drive when the other was in the shop. LOL :)

Yes, and the British motorbikes used to leak oil with or without provocation. I remember when the first Japanese motorbikes came out, we would (in Europe) comment on how they lacked excitement but were amazing because "They don't leak oil!". The world has certainly changed. Now we comment about the Korean cars that they lack excitement 'but what great warranties!'. Next in line will be the Indian and the Chinese... Talking of which, I saw the Hyundai Vera Cruz (that blk_on_blk had mentioned and was impressed with the progress they made. Too big for me, though, but certainly a contender for some, and very reasonably priced.