Cng Conversion...

[wwest]

Anyone tried this with a hybrid, thought about it..??

PHILL is a device which connects to your home natural gas line and then overnight compresses and fills your CNG tank with enough NG for the next day's use/travel.

[RX400h]

What is the stored pressure in the vehicle? High pressure (gas) tanks can be a bit scarry!

[wwest]

What is the stored pressure in the vehicle? High pressure (gas) tanks can be a bit scarry!

Are you fully aware of what might happen with the hybrid battery with an electronics overcharge failure..??

Life is FULL of danger.

[RX400h]

NiMH batteries won't explode or overheat as easily as lithiums, correct? Personally, I'd rather have NiMHs than lithiums or a super high pressure, explosive gas behind me, but hey, that's me....

[SOMEONE ELSE'S GOT MY NAME]

What is the stored pressure in the vehicle? High pressure (gas) tanks can be a bit scarry!

Are you fully aware of what might happen with the hybrid battery with an electronics overcharge failure..??

Life is FULL of danger.

You mean like 10 or 20 gallons of toxic liquid high explosive in your tank ? :P

CNG tanks are now plastic wrapped and can easily handle 5,000lbs pressure. Problem is that only works out to about 8 or 10 gallons for a moderate sized car. That's the supposed drawback to Honda's CNG car. Bigger Taxis / Busses though by nature of their bigness have more range w/ their more massive sized vehicle.

[wwest]

What is the stored pressure in the vehicle? High pressure (gas) tanks can be a bit scarry!

Are you fully aware of what might happen with the hybrid battery with an electronics overcharge failure..??

Life is FULL of danger.

You mean like 10 or 20 gallons of toxic liquid high explosive in your tank ? :P

CNG tanks are now plastic wrapped and can easily handle 5,000lbs pressure. Problem is that only works out to about 8 or 10 gallons for a moderate sized car. That's the supposed drawback to Honda's CNG car. Bigger Taxis / Busses though by nature of their bigness have more range w/ their more massive sized vehicle.

My 2001 911/996 C4 has only a 13 gallon tank and that has yet to concern me....26 MPG hwy.

[SOMEONE ELSE'S GOT MY NAME]

CNG tanks are still pretty HUGE. At least modernly, the tanks are lighter, what with the plastic. In your 911, it would take up the cubic feet of your passenger seat, the tiny jump seats in the back, and the front trunk in order to get 13 gallons of CNG. Then there's the issue of less BTU's per equivilent gallons. Basicly you'd have a 4 wheel motorcycle, except your passengers would have to ride on the hood :P

[RX400h]

You mean like 10 or 20 gallons of toxic liquid high explosive in your tank ? :P

At least if you puncture a gas tank it probably won't explode (only in the movies!) or create a jetstream of air that'll puncture your skin!

Even a 2200 psi nitrogen tank can plow through a wall if the manifold valve is broken off.

Seriously, CNG cars are not ready for prime time.

WWest, are you saying that you have a 13 gallon CNG tank in your Porsche? By the way, my C5 Corvette gets 29 or 30 MPG on the highway. How's that for a 375 HP vehicle? :P

Really, what does all this have to do with our Lexus vehicles? :(

[SOMEONE ELSE'S GOT MY NAME]

You mean like 10 or 20 gallons of toxic liquid high explosive in your tank ? :P

At least if you puncture a gas tank it probably won't explode (only in the movies!) or create a jetstream of air that'll puncture your skin!

. . . snip

Why did I suddenly remember the Ford Pino

This was where Ford’s "cost-benefit analysis" estimated burn victims to be appx 2,100 people.

Then of course there are always your refinery deaths/injuries, the deaths/cost of being in the persian gulf, etc etc ... basicaly lots of costs keeping the toxic liquid fuel tank full ... not even counting the whole Peak Oil issue, which the government and even the oil industry finally admit that we're heading into. I duno, CNG may not be a bargain, but with over half of our crude needing to be imported, there ARE advantages.

[NY_RX400h_Savanah]

I'd say 25-30% cars in europe run on CNG and I have never heard nor seen of any accident involving CNG tank explosion-in fact it's much easier to cause explosion with regular gas tank. As far as mileage- I had Alfa Romeo 154 running on CNG and it was getting about 20% worse mileage on CNG than on a gas-but keep in mind that CNG in Europe is 1/2 the price of Gas and is much more cleaner to burn. Yes tank is pain in the neck but that's why designers came up with Run flat tire to get that extra space for CNG tank. Almost every manufacturer in Europe offers factory installed CNG system for about $500 more and that is very smart direction. For first few years living here I was wondering why such a great idea isn't implemented here yet-but after living here for almost a decade and getting to know all the American stereotypes I'm not surprised anymore.

[RX400h]

After having runflat tires for three years on my Corvette, I hope to NEVER go back to using them. They are very heavy and allow small road surface irregularities to make the car hop sideways. (because of the stiff sidewalls). Even BMW's Z4 was ridiculed because of its darty steering and runflat tires. Many cars in Europe run on diesel fuel, but you won't see that happening here, either. At $.50+ per gallon higher in price than regular gas, it makes no sense to buy a diesel vehicle strictly to save money. At least our RX400hs can use regular fuel.

[NY_RX400h_Savanah]

You're missing the point-no one tells you to put CNG tank into the sport/leisure car nor use Run Flat tires. Talk is about everyday driving cars -like Prius where no one would probably care what ratings tire has. And yes Europeans drive diesels but you know what-even with diesel more expensive they make up with efficiency-like 1.3 engine made by Citroen, Peugeot and Fiat getting you 70 miles on a galon, or even VW 1.6 TD that makes 50. Maybe that's why Prius in Europe has such a small market. But wait-diesel stinks is loud, used only in big trucks, etc. etc.-at least thats the stereotype-just like with CNG-OMG it will explode under my !Removed! ;)

The bottom line is that even with current technologies the options are out there-CNG/Hybrid or Diesel/Hybrid-something along those lines but it all comes down to marketing and again stereotypes-Americans (most) don't give a damn about being biggest polluter in the world and are not ready to turn things around. Thank god we have great minds like Gore and great states like Cali or NY.ultimately it would be great to drive Hydrogens-I'll be the first to buy one if they become available-even with extra money to pay for car and refueling.

PS

RX is in the different category-it's a luxury car that allows us to have a luxury and save environment at the same time.

And as far as "CNG cars not being ready for prime time"-they're around for over 20 years!!

[RX400h]

Living in Southern California, I believe a much better solution is to use solar power to charge an all-electric car for commuting to work. I think this'll happen (all-electric vehicles becoming more popular) before we see many CNG or diesel econocars, at least in this area. The point is convenience, and unless CNG is easy to access outside of the home, you won't see any major inroads to its popularity.

[Gryphon]

Thank god we have great minds like Gore

I just lost my breakfast............. :(

Tom

[RX400h]

WWest, I'm sure you heard of the new Tesla all-electric sportscar. Here's what a Lithium battery expert has to say about it:

"I used to work for a Li-ion battery company and have reviewed the technical aspects of the Telsa. There are a number of articles out there but they fail to mention a few items.

1. Safety. The Telsa uses 6,831 Li-ion battery cells normally used in laptop PC, cordless power tools, etc. Each cell is a little larger than a AA cell. At 100% charge, this is over 50,000 watts. Thats a lot of electric energy!!! The Prius only has about 1,300 watts. You may recall all the articles about the recalls on lap top batteries. These are exactly the same type. While these batteries have the most energy density, they are formulated based on Lithium Cobalt, which has a very low flash point. Which means, if there is an internal short in one cell due to damage (accident) or manufacturing defect, all the cells configured in parallel will dump there energy thru the damaged cell resulting in tremendous heat and fire. The heat and fire is so intense, the surrounding cell will catch on fire setting off a chain reaction. The car will burn down, the garage, the house or building. Telsa advertises they have liquid cooling and other safety measures, but it won't help if the car is in an accident or if a single cell has a manufacturing defect.

2. Weight. The battery pack and all the related electronics weigh about 900 lbs. Yikes!

3. Battery Life. The average life of a Li-ion battery is 400-500 cycles. This is based on the standard industry rating of 80% depth of discharge. The market price for a Li-ion cobalt cells is about $2.50 so to replace a complete pack, you probably talking over $25,000-$30,000 once you factor in the packaging.

4. Long charge cycle. You would have to charge this overnight with such a large pack and the charger would be huge (expensive). Assuming a recharge to 100% from 80% discharge (about 40,000 watts), a 120 volt charger at 20 amps (2400 watts), charge efficiency of 80%, it would take 20 hours to recharge. Using a 240 volt charger at 20 amps, that would cut the recharge time to 10 hours. In Tesla's favor is a commuter would only need to recharge once a week. But long trips would require stops every 200 miles +- and recharge.

5. Green. Li-ion cobalt cells contain heavy metal and while they can be recycled, its tough.

While electric vehicle performance is something to behold, batteries technology is the key. Li-Ion cobalt cells widely used in laptop PC's is definitely a "no-no" on safety alone. There are manufacturers of safer Li-Ion Phosphate cells (Valence Technology and A123), but their energy density is 40% lower currently requiring more cells for the same energy capacity. But they are safer plus have a 2,000 cycle life. But they still are based on small cells of which any could fail making replacement very difficult. Once larger cells are commercialize (10x - 20x), then it will be a simple matter to pull and replace any failed cell."

[wwest]

WWest, I'm sure you heard of the new Tesla all-electric sportscar. Here's what a Lithium battery expert has to say about it:

"I used to work for a Li-ion battery company and have reviewed the technical aspects of the Telsa. There are a number of articles out there but they fail to mention a few items.

1. Safety. The Telsa uses 6,831 Li-ion battery cells normally used in laptop PC, cordless power tools, etc. Each cell is a little larger than a AA cell. At 100% charge, this is over 50,000 watts. Thats a lot of electric energy!!! The Prius only has about 1,300 watts.

Typo..?

1300 watts is only a little less than 2 HP.

You may recall all the articles about the recalls on lap top batteries. These are exactly the same type. While these batteries have the most energy density, they are formulated based on Lithium Cobalt, which has a very low flash point. Which means, if there is an internal short in one cell due to damage (accident) or manufacturing defect, all the cells configured in parallel will dump there energy thru the damaged cell resulting in tremendous heat and fire. The heat and fire is so intense, the surrounding cell will catch on fire setting off a chain reaction. The car will burn down, the garage, the house or building. Telsa advertises they have liquid cooling and other safety measures, but it won't help if the car is in an accident or if a single cell has a manufacturing defect.

2. Weight. The battery pack and all the related electronics weigh about 900 lbs. Yikes!

3. Battery Life. The average life of a Li-ion battery is 400-500 cycles. This is based on the standard industry rating of 80% depth of discharge. The market price for a Li-ion cobalt cells is about $2.50 so to replace a complete pack, you probably talking over $25,000-$30,000 once you factor in the packaging.

4. Long charge cycle. You would have to charge this overnight with such a large pack and the charger would be huge (expensive). Assuming a recharge to 100% from 80% discharge (about 40,000 watts), a 120 volt charger at 20 amps (2400 watts), charge efficiency of 80%, it would take 20 hours to recharge. Using a 240 volt charger at 20 amps, that would cut the recharge time to 10 hours. In Tesla's favor is a commuter would only need to recharge once a week. But long trips would require stops every 200 miles +- and recharge.

5. Green. Li-ion cobalt cells contain heavy metal and while they can be recycled, its tough.

While electric vehicle performance is something to behold, batteries technology is the key. Li-Ion cobalt cells widely used in laptop PC's is definitely a "no-no" on safety alone. There are manufacturers of safer Li-Ion Phosphate cells (Valence Technology and A123), but their energy density is 40% lower currently requiring more cells for the same energy capacity. But they are safer plus have a 2,000 cycle life. But they still are based on small cells of which any could fail making replacement very difficult. Once larger cells are commercialize (10x - 20x), then it will be a simple matter to pull and replace any failed cell."

...

[RX400h]

That MUST be a typo. My RX400h "boost" gauge maxes out at 20,000 watts.