02-06 Transmission hesitation problems

[amf1932]

is there a fix or not?

So far....NOT!!

[SW03ES]

There IS a fix for the "going 40" problem, the reflash will fix that.

The throttle lag is the way it is though, this is never going to be resolved. We were just talking about this on the Autopia detailing board, owners of MANY car companies vehicles were complaining of the same problem.

[jragosta]

There IS a fix for the "going 40" problem, the reflash will fix that.

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Not on my 04 ES330.

[SW03ES]

Your 04 shouldn't have the "going 40" problem.

[amf1932]

Your 04 shouldn't have the "going 40" problem.

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What is the "going 40" problem?

[sonewsy]

Your 04 shouldn't have the "going 40" problem.

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What is the "going 40" problem?

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Jr says he has the "going 40" problem and Swo3es tells him he shouldn't. ??? Shouldn't a car owner know if a problem has been fixed or not?

Swo, I know you're a host and you try to be helpful, but it seems like you go out of your way to tell folks what isn't wrong with their car. Don't they know?

[steviej]

Alan,

the "going 40" problem is the tranny hunting. Tranny logic has shifted the car into 5th gear (OD) but other factors make the car think it should be in 4th. The car sets up a little vibration or joggle. It is annoying but either letting off on the gas or applying more gas smooths things right out. Another option is sliding the shift lever over to 4th thus eliminating the ability of 5th gear alltogether. Once you get to a spot in the spot that speed above 40mph is maintainable then slide the shift back to D.

sonewsy, SW03ES is trying to say that the 2002-2003 ES's had this as part of the overall tranny complaint that the Aug 03 TSB was supposed to fix. At some point in 2003 all subsequent ES's were then shipped with the flashed ECU so that the factory programming of the ECU was that of the TSB. This would eliminate the "going 40" phenomenon from late 2003 to current ES vehicles.

does that make sence?

steviej

[dancer457]

I have a 01 ES300...and it seems to have a hesitationg problem. I bought it used about 3 months ago. I have had to have a lot of work done on it. but yet it still hesititates. im guessing its normal?

[amf1932]

Alan,

the "going 40" problem is the tranny hunting.  Tranny logic has shifted the car into 5th gear (OD) but other factors make the car think it should be in 4th.  The car sets up a little vibration or joggle.  It is annoying but either letting off on the gas or applying more gas smooths things right out.  Another option is sliding the shift lever over to 4th thus eliminating the ability of 5th gear alltogether.  Once you get to a spot in the spot that speed above 40mph is maintainable then slide the shift back to D.

sonewsy, SW03ES is trying to say that the 2002-2003 ES's had this as part of the overall tranny complaint that the Aug 03 TSB was supposed to fix.  At some point in 2003 all subsequent ES's were then shipped with the flashed ECU so that the factory programming of the ECU was that of the TSB.  This would eliminate the "going 40" phenomenon from late 2003 to current ES vehicles.

does that make sence?

steviej

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steviej-

That's what I thought, Although I never had that problem before the flash or after.

[jragosta]

Alan,

the "going 40" problem is the tranny hunting.  Tranny logic has shifted the car into 5th gear (OD) but other factors make the car think it should be in 4th.  The car sets up a little vibration or joggle.  It is annoying but either letting off on the gas or applying more gas smooths things right out.  Another option is sliding the shift lever over to 4th thus eliminating the ability of 5th gear alltogether.  Once you get to a spot in the spot that speed above 40mph is maintainable then slide the shift back to D.

sonewsy, SW03ES is trying to say that the 2002-2003 ES's had this as part of the overall tranny complaint that the Aug 03 TSB was supposed to fix.  At some point in 2003 all subsequent ES's were then shipped with the flashed ECU so that the factory programming of the ECU was that of the TSB.  This would eliminate the "going 40" phenomenon from late 2003 to current ES vehicles.

does that make sence?

steviej

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OK. You're right. I don't have that particular problem.

The 'going 40' problem I was referring to was when you're cruising along at 35-40 mph and step hard on the gas, the car sits there thinking about what it wants to do for a second or two before it begins to accelerate.

[amf1932]

The 'going 40' problem I was referring to was when you're cruising along at 35-40 mph and step hard on the gas, the car sits there thinking about what it wants to do for a second or two before it begins to accelerate.

Exactly....That's the problem I've had both pre-flash and post-flash.

[SW03ES]

Jrag/Alan- Thats the DBW lag.

dancer- I don't beleive your 01 has a DBW throttle, so that hesitation may not be normal.

[amf1932]

Jrag/Alan- Thats the DBW lag.

dancer- I don't beleive your 01 has a DBW throttle, so that hesitation may not be normal.

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Till this day I feel that this downshifting lag is coming from the electronic transmission control more then the DBW.

[SW03ES]

But then why do all these other vehicles with DBW throttles have the same problem?

[jragosta]

But then why do all these other vehicles with DBW throttles have the same problem?

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We could get into semantics about what a 'dbw problem' is, but that wouldn't be very productive. There are some DBW cars that don't have the problem, so it's not purely dbw.

The cause seems to be the programming that was selected to go along with the dbw. When you step on the gas hard with an ancient carbeurated engine, you get a flood of fuel shot into the engine - much of which goes unburned. That wastes fuel as well as increasing emissions.

You get a similar effect with a standard fuel injected engine. When you step hard on the gas, lots of fuel gets dumped into the engine before the engine is ready to use it. Again, your fuel economy drops and emissions increase.

With the advent of dbw systems, the manufacturer can program the system to slow down the rate of fuel injection. When you step hard on the gas, the fuel injection doesn't jump quickly, it ramps slowly. That keeps emissions low and helps to increase the EPA ratings. That also explains why they don't have the problem in Canadian cars - which don't have the same standards.

All of the above seems fairly straightforward. The following is speculation on my part, but I don't see anything that's not supportable.

It seems to me that some vendors (including, but not limited to Lexus) went too far with this round. They have too long a lag time before fuel injection rates increase. THAT is why there's a severe lag in engine performance when you step hard on the gas.

Your method of slowly accelerating circumvents this problem because the system seems to be programmed to hold back only on full throttle (or nearly so) acceleration. It doesn't seem to mind as much acceleration as you wish to apply - as long as you do so gradually.

My personal gripe is twofold:

1. If the above is correct, they should be able to do a better job without affecting mileage or emissions much. The current lag on full throttle acceleration is 1-2 seconds. If they limited it to, say, 0.25 seconds, they'd get most of the benefit without the problems.

2. Simply from a safety standpoint, there are times when you need to be able to accelerate quickly. A long hesitation creates a significant safety problem, IMHO. If anyone DOES have an accident due to the throttle lag, Lexus is probably going to lose big time - given the huge number of complaints that they've effectively ignored.

[SW03ES]

You've got it 100% on the nose, at least thats how I understand it.

[steviej]

With the advent of dbw systems, the manufacturer can program the system to slow down the rate of fuel injection. When you step hard on the gas, the fuel injection doesn't jump quickly, it ramps slowly. That keeps emissions low and helps to increase the EPA ratings. That also explains why they don't have the problem in Canadian cars - which don't have the same standards.

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Actually, I have read a few recent reports from Canada about the new Camry (3.3L V6 with electronic auto tranny) up there having the same hesitation complaints that the US ES 300 has been plagued with for the last several years.

on a side note, your take/explanantion is superb.

steviej

[andyjl]

Hi

I'm doing some research for my dad, basically i know that Lexus has great reliability because it is a toyota branch and all. But my question is

1. are there any significant problems with the 04 and 05 es330s

2. What are some of the pros/cons with this car?

3. also it looks like there is a tranny problem with the 02/03, has this been resolved and are the tranny probs in the 05 models as well?

Thanks

[steviej]

1. check alldata for any reported TSBs. www.alldata.com

nothing significant that the dealers have got a fix for.

2. if you are looking for a sports sedan keep looking. if you are looking for an ultra quiet luxury sedan at an economical price then look no farther.

3. depending on who you talk to the tranny issue is and is not a problem. you would have to drive a demo for yourself for a weekend to make any kind or judgement. Read the "stupid tranny thread" that is pinned above.

steviej

[LexKid630]

It al depends on how the car is driven. If the driver tesnd to floor it and be very agressive, the transmision will break! If the driver drives it normal, it will last a long time....I know this from experience. Just make sure you don't get an rx300; you'll be fine ;)

[SW03ES]

There's no "problem" with the transmission, but the electronic throttle on this and many other cars can cause it to shift very jerkily if driven incorectly. It can be adapted for, but the 05 is the same as an 02 in that regard. I agree with Steve, your dad should drive one for a weekend to make sure it doesn't bother him.

[jragosta]

1. check alldata for any reported TSBs.  www.alldata.com

nothing significant that the dealers have got a fix for.

2. if you are looking for a sports sedan keep looking.  if you are looking for an ultra quiet luxury sedan at an economical price then look no farther.

3. depending on who you talk to the tranny issue is and is not a problem.  you would have to drive a demo for yourself for a weekend to make any kind or judgement.  Read the "stupid tranny thread" that is pinned above.

steviej

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The problem is that the tranny problem won't always show up in a test drive - even if you drive it for a while. The transmission learns your driving style. My car didn't start to act up for several weeks after I bought it.

I am recommending to everyone I know that they NOT buy a Lexus. Not only does the car shift like a wheezing Yugo, Lexus' handling of the problem stinks. Instead of being honest, they pull stuff like 'the car works as designed'. Right. They designed the car to have a 2 second lag when you step on the gas.

I might have even let that go, but they did the same thing with my memory seat. The seat doesn't return to where I set it - it stops about an inch or so away. Again, instead of either fixing it or saying that there's some variability allowed for engineering reasons, they say that they designed it that way.

Basically, any problem with the car will be YOUR problem because Lexus will never admit that they have a problem.

As much as I love my Lexus other than the transmission issue, I'd suggest looking elsewhere.

[SW03ES]

We've been through this before, but thats no different at any company. I've explained the liability reasons dealers say "its operating as designed"

[turnbowm]

Hi

I'm doing some research for my dad, basically i know that Lexus has great reliability because it is a toyota branch and all.  But my question is

1.  are there any significant problems with the 04 and 05 es330s

2.  What are some of the pros/cons with this car?

3.  also it looks like there is a tranny problem with the 02/03, has this been resolved and are the tranny probs in the 05 models as well?

Thanks

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The hesitation and tranny shifting issues were a deal-breaker for me. After driving several '04 and '05 ES330s, decided that my wife's '98 ES300 was the one with the advanced technology. These issues aside, the Lexus ES330 is a quality automobile with an excellent reliability record.

Martin

[alschneider]

I have a 4 month old ES330. I'll admint the shifting at slow speeds (10-25MPH) was hard to get used to, but I haven't noticed it in quite a long time. I guess its like they said earlier... you get used to it and subconciously work around it.

Although it has plenty of power for me (I'm an old !Removed! at 40), it is by no means a sports car. If you want a super-quiet, classy car, this is it. Everyione who gets in compliments the trim, the quietness of the ride, the nav system, the seats, and a lot of other things.

So... If it is for your dad, I would definately recommend it as it is a very 'professional' looking classy car. Not too flashy or brazen (like an H2 or a boxy Caddy), just a good quality vehicle that you can drive with pride.