02-06 Transmission hesitation problems

[SW03ES]

Dealer won't let you spend time in the car, then you wont buy it its that simple. If you tell them "If I drive this car for 2 days and like it then I will buy it, if you can't let me do this then I wont buy a car here" they'll let you do it, I have never once been turned down for this. Especially an ES when they can just give you one of their loaners. You can't let the dealer take control of the situation, you have the money. They have some car you can get anywhere in the country. Only one person has your money, you. I even had one dealer waive their policy that buyers under 25 not test drive cars alone and give me the car for an entire afternoon. They didn't want to, I headed for the door and the sales manager didn't want to see that happen.

Its certainly not entirely the consumers fault, but it is partly. You can't expect them to refund your money because you suddenly don't like the way the car drives now that you've bought it. I've driven several other makes with this hesitation, BMWs, Audis, Nissans, Acuras its not something specific to Lexus. If you give yourself a chance to get used to it and you WANT to get used to it and enjoy the car you can, I promise you. Or you can do what some members here have chosen to do which is to refuse to adapt to the vehicle and then their $40,000 has been wasted.

If you're easy on the throttle the car will not hesitate. If you were near me I would meet you and your wife some afternoon and gladly show you how I've adapted my driving style and can drive the car smoothly.

[amf1932]

If you're easy on the throttle the car will not hesitate. If you were near me I would meet you and your wife some afternoon and gladly show you how I've adapted my driving style and can drive the car smoothly.

I think you're getting away from the point of this whole thread.

I'm sure that most of the complaining owners, including myself, can drive their cars as smoothly as you, but under certain circumstances, when you need to power out in a hurry, and the car balks, and doesn't respond immediately, this is a definite cause for concern. I consider that very dangerous as do other owners.

[SW03ES]

I drive in Washington DC, some say we have worse traffic than NYC and Los Angeles, I've never encountered a situation where I've felt the car has behaved in an unsafe manner when I've called for full power. There's also never been a reported accident because of this hesitation either.

I'm not saying the hesitation isn't there, I'm just saying it can be compensated for. Like I've said many times, it feels strange to me to drive traditionally tethered throttles now.

[SW03ES]

I just wanted to add that I'm not trying to diminish the aggrivation that you guys feel over this at all, I'm just trying to help you enjoy your vehicles. You can, really.

[jragosta]

Dealer won't let you spend time in the car, then you wont buy it its that simple. If you tell them "If I drive this car for 2 days and like it then I will buy it, if you can't let me do this then I wont buy a car here" they'll let you do it, I have never once been turned down for this. Especially an ES when they can just give you one of their loaners. You can't let the dealer take control of the situation, you have the money. They have some car you can get anywhere in the country. Only one person has your money, you. I even had one dealer waive their policy that buyers under 25 not test drive cars alone and give me the car for an entire afternoon. They didn't want to, I headed for the door and the sales manager didn't want to see that happen.

Its certainly not entirely the consumers fault, but it is partly. You can't expect them to refund your money because you suddenly don't like the way the car drives now that you've bought it. I've driven several other makes with this hesitation, BMWs, Audis, Nissans, Acuras its not something specific to Lexus. If you give yourself a chance to get used to it and you WANT to get used to it and enjoy the car you can, I promise you. Or you can do what some members here have chosen to do which is to refuse to adapt to the vehicle and then their $40,000 has been wasted.

If you're easy on the throttle the car will not hesitate. If you were near me I would meet you and your wife some afternoon and gladly show you how I've adapted my driving style and can drive the car smoothly.

←

To address your comments one by one:

1. While dealers in your area may be flexible, many others are not. My Lexus dealer would not even consider letting me take the car for very long. There's only one Lexus dealer within 100 miles, so I couldn't go elsewhere. It's not unreasonable to assume that if a major flaw shows up somewhere, that they'll fix it.

2. I don't see how it's the consumer's fault. I drive my ES the same way I drive other cars. The ES is very, very dangerous. Maybe you're able to drive like a little old lady and never step on the gas, but that's not possible for some of us. All the freeway onramps in my area are quite short. If you don't step hard on the gas, you're sunk. And the nature of the freeways makes the hesitation extremely dangerous.

I can't really figure out why you're defending Lexus in this. The car clearly does not perform the way a $35 K car should perform. There's a major lag in acceleration. Lexus admits that there's a lag in acceleration, but refuses to fix it - pretending that it's normal. The lag does not always show up in a test drive.

I'm really trying to figure out how it's MY fault that the car drives like a 1975 Yugo.

[jragosta]

I drive in Washington DC, some say we have worse traffic than NYC and Los Angeles, I've never encountered a situation where I've felt the car has behaved in an unsafe manner when I've called for full power. There's also never been a reported accident because of this hesitation either.

←

Good for you. Yet many people DO say that the car has behaved in an unsafe way when full power is needed. Seems to me that their experience is just as valid as yours.

All you've shown is that SOME drivers and SOME cars aren't badly affected. That doesn't excuse Lexus in any way.

[SW03ES]

I'm just saying if you take the time to try and adapt your driving style you can drive the car smoothly even in emergency situations. My car has the hesitation for sure.

I'm not trying to excuse Lexus, I'm saying that you have a choice. You can adapt your driving style and enjoy your ownership of the vehicle, or you can choose to refuse to do that and shake your fist at Lexus at every stoplight.

[SW03ES]

To address your comments one by one:

1. While dealers in your area may be flexible, many others are not. My Lexus dealer would not even consider letting me take the car for very long. There's only one Lexus dealer within 100 miles, so I couldn't go elsewhere. It's not unreasonable to assume that if a major flaw shows up somewhere, that they'll fix it.

Did you try heading for the door? I work with car dealerships for a living, I have never encountered a car dealership that would turn down a sale to refuse allowing their tester or a loaner to be driven for a day, thats a poor business practice. So what you're saying is for some reason EVERY car dealership in my area, both luxury and mainstream are somehow different than the dealers in your area? If *I encountered a dealer like that and it was the only one around I would purchase a different make of car. Did you ask or just assume that they wouldn't let you?

2. I don't see how it's the consumer's fault. I drive my ES the same way I drive other cars. The ES is very, very dangerous. Maybe you're able to drive like a little old lady and never step on the gas, but that's not possible for some of us. All the freeway onramps in my area are quite short. If you don't step hard on the gas, you're sunk. And the nature of the freeways makes the hesitation extremely dangerous.

Because of the throttle by wire system it cannot be driven like other cars. You've never asked me how I or other members here drive it smoothly because you're not interested in trying, I learned from steviej. I accelerate just as briskly and abruptly as you I assure you (I'm actually pretty aggressive) its just a particular way you have to address the throttle under certain types of load conditions, when starting from a stop and when returning from a coasting situation at some speeds. Thats all, do it for a while and it will become automatic. The car is smooth as silk when I drive it, but when my fiance drives it who doesn't know how to address the throttle it bucks all over the place.

I can't really figure out why you're defending Lexus in this. The car clearly does not perform the way a $35 K car should perform. There's a major lag in acceleration. Lexus admits that there's a lag in acceleration, but refuses to fix it - pretending that it's normal. The lag does not always show up in a test drive.

My goal isn't really to defend Lexus, its to make people understand that this is an inherant characteristic and they can either learn to adapt to it which is quite simple or they can curse every day they drive it. Lexus won't do anything because there isn't anything they can do. Its an inherant characteristic of the throttle by wire system and its not just a problem for Lexus, other car companies that use TBW systems also have the same issue, BMW, Audi, Nissan to name a few. Just now they're coming out with some systems that are more refined going into new cars.

It is annoying yes, but its not dangerous. There has never been an accident or death reported blamed on the acceleration lag and Lexus has been using this system in their models, with this problem, for 7 years. If you learn to drive around it it wont even be annoying anymore.

Its just that the whining about this is getting old, you have three options:

1. Try and adapt yourself, I'll be happy to help you do that.

2. Drive it like it is

3. Or just get rid of it

Continually posting the SAME posts on this board isn't doing anything for you guys. Fighting at Lexus might eventually get you an offer for replacement with a new car...which will behave the same way. They can't fix it, they would have to redesign and replace the entire throttle system and they're not going to do that because some owners complain because it drives differently.

[skremese]

SW03ES,

Thanks for your postings and your perspective but I have to disagree with you on your statement that because this car is a drive by wire it can't be expected to drive like other cars. I find that to be a completely amazing statement - Lexus should strive to make their cars drive like others. BTW - is the LS430 drive by wire? Does it exhibit this problem? How about the RX330? Or the SC430 for that matter? I've only heard of this problem with the ES330 and some simliar Toyota products (Solara, etc).

I design very advanced products for a living and am appaled with Lexus lack of focus on fixing this problem. From my viewpoint they have had this negative feedback starting with the first iteration of this body style ES300 (2001?) and have done little to nothing to fix it. Obviously the complaints have not impacted their profit margin enough which leaves us, the consumer, with a situation that the manufacturer is not willing to solve.

As to your suggestions on how to better manipulate the dealerships - thanks but like others posters have stated, some dealers do not operate that way. I tried to get both of the Lexus dealerships in my area (Sacramento - both are owned by the same person/company) to give me a loaner vehicle for a weekend. Both declined, refused even. I called around in San Francisco so a couple of the Lexus dealers there and was told they would not let me take the cars for a weekend and that they were not allowing over 50 miles to be put on them in a test drive (due to the newness of the model and limited availability).

Also, per someone suggestion I would just dump the car but my wife loves it except for this problem. I am going to work with them on a buy back (yeah right, I think it's a long shot) and go for an RX330. I will try to get that one as a loaner for a weekend when they test drive and attempt to solve the hesitation problem on my ES.

Thanks again for your perspective.

-Steve

[jragosta]

To address your comments one by one:

Did you try heading for the door? I work with car dealerships for a living, I have never encountered a car dealership that would turn down a sale to refuse allowing their tester or a loaner to be driven for a day, thats a poor business practice. So what you're saying is for some reason EVERY car dealership in my area, both luxury and mainstream are somehow different than the dealers in your area? If *I encountered a dealer like that and it was the only one around I would purchase a different make of car. Did you ask or just assume that they wouldn't let you?

Because of the throttle by wire system it cannot be driven like other cars. You've never asked me how I or other members here drive it smoothly because you're not interested in trying, I learned from steviej. I accelerate just as briskly and abruptly as you I assure you (I'm actually pretty aggressive) its just a particular way you have to address the throttle under certain types of load conditions, when starting from a stop and when returning from a coasting situation at some speeds. Thats all, do it for a while and it will become automatic. The car is smooth as silk when I drive it, but when my fiance drives it who doesn't know how to address the throttle it bucks all over the place.

←

I've asked - and was told 'no'. In my area, there's only 1 Lexus dealer in a 100 mile radius and they're pretty arrogant. They figure that if you really want a Lexus, you have to deal with them.

As for the driving, please tell us how to drive so I get the response I need without hesitation.

BTW, I was talking with an auto engineer today (he runs a company that provides refurbished fuel system parts for all types of cars, but especially performance cars). He said that the problem isn't drive by wire, it's an emission issue.

That makes sense to me. Blaming drive by wire never made sense - even a 20 year old integrated circuit should be able to handle the calculations way faster than I could sense the results. The reason it's an emissions issue is that they wanted to design it so that when you step on the gas, raw fuel can't be flying out the exhaust. If you dump the fuel in quicker than the system can use it, your HC emissions skyrocket. Because of that, they artificially reduce the rate of fuel injection until the rpms catch up. This also explains why there are reports that the Canadian cars don't have the problem. If it were an insurmountable drive by wire problem, even the Canadian cars would show it. But since it's emission related, their different emission requirements allow them to ramp up fuel injection faster.

[SW03ES]

Nothing wrong with disagreeing at all, thank you both for doing it calmly though! I was concerned I'd come back and find people hurling firey torches at me.

I'll address skre's post first then jrag's.

I find that to be a completely amazing statement - Lexus should strive to make their cars drive like others.

It does drive like other cars that have the same type of DBW system.

BTW - is the LS430 drive by wire? Does it exhibit this problem? How about the RX330? Or the SC430 for that matter? I've only heard of this problem with the ES330 and some simliar Toyota products (Solara, etc).

Yes sir, the LS430 is DBW and there are complaints about it too, and the RX330, and the SC330. Search through every forum on here, every models forum has at least one complaint about the acceleration delay because of the DBW throttle. My dad noticed it from the second he drove his 98 LS400 for the first time, right after the DBW throttle was introduced. He got used to it eventually, his 04 LS430 has it and every RX330 I've ever driven as a loaner has it. I dont know why but on this forum for some reason we have mostly ES owners and a larger concentration of people that have the problem are ES owners. I think it comes from search engine hits, the more we talk about it the more it pops up on search engines when people search for "ES Transmission" or whatever. It is a universal problem though.

For whatever reason the ECT PWR function found on the LS, GS, and SC seems to dull the hesitation somewhat making the LS, GS, and SC seem like they don't exhibit the problem as much.

As to your suggestions on how to better manipulate the dealerships - thanks but like others posters have stated, some dealers do not operate that way. I tried to get both of the Lexus dealerships in my area (Sacramento - both are owned by the same person/company) to give me a loaner vehicle for a weekend. Both declined, refused even. I called around in San Francisco so a couple of the Lexus dealers there and was told they would not let me take the cars for a weekend and that they were not allowing over 50 miles to be put on them in a test drive (due to the newness of the model and limited availability).

Heh, must have something to do with the region then. Dealerships here have a lot of competition per vehicle make so maybe that makes a difference. For instance we have 5 Lexus dealers (with a 6th being built) within 30 miles. Thats common for all makes.

Also, per someone suggestion I would just dump the car but my wife loves it except for this problem. I am going to work with them on a buy back (yeah right, I think it's a long shot) and go for an RX330. I will try to get that one as a loaner for a weekend when they test drive and attempt to solve the hesitation problem on my ES.

Check the RX forum, the RX has the same problem. It doesn't seem as severe on the RX for whatever reason but its there, and some owners are just as mad as you guys are. I drive RX330s always when my car is in for service.

jrag-

I've asked - and was told 'no'. In my area, there's only 1 Lexus dealer in a 100 mile radius and they're pretty arrogant. They figure that if you really want a Lexus, you have to deal with them.

I gotcha, thats a tough situation to be in. Like I said to scre above it must be a regional thing or based on the competition dealers have here.

BTW, I was talking with an auto engineer today (he runs a company that provides refurbished fuel system parts for all types of cars, but especially performance cars). He said that the problem isn't drive by wire, it's an emission issue.

This is half true. The reason the DBW system operates as it does IS an emissions issue. Lexus won't tell you this but Canadian vehicles don't have this issue like you said, it has something to do with delaying WOT (Wide Open Throttle) to bring the cars under the US' stricter emissions standards. Thats why car companies are moving to DBW because it makes it easier to comply. The difficulty has been and continues to be figuring out how to refine the systems and remain within the emissions regs. As the regs get tighter and tighter this gets harder and harder to do.

As for the driving, please tell us how to drive so I get the response I need without hesitation.

No problem at all, I'd be happy to. In fact I was driving around today trying to pay attention to what I do so that I could explain it here.

Basically you have to learn to anticipate the hesitation and feel as it builds and dissipates. When you accelerate you have to pause your movement on the pedal once you feel the power starting to flow through and wait, you'll feel the pedal tense up and let go beneath your foot, the lag just happened. After that you can accelerate normally. You'll learn through doing this when it is neccisary and when its not, I've learned that usually its only neccisary when starting from a stop or coming back onto throttle from a coasting state.

Now, at first this is going to seem really difficult and cumbersome but I promise you that you will get used to it. The pausing is only for a microsecond and you'll learn to anticipate the behavior of the transmission before it happens and then the car will feel like it drives like any other car. You'll learn instinctively to read the state of the transmission through the gas pedal and it will become natural.

I don't know if thats the best explanation but its really something you've got to try.

[jragosta]

As for the driving, please tell us how to drive so I get the response I need without hesitation.

No problem at all, I'd be happy to. In fact I was driving around today trying to pay attention to what I do so that I could explain it here.

Basically you have to learn to anticipate the hesitation and feel as it builds and dissipates. When you accelerate you have to pause your movement on the pedal once you feel the power starting to flow through and wait, you'll feel the pedal tense up and let go beneath your foot, the lag just happened. After that you can accelerate normally. You'll learn through doing this when it is neccisary and when its not, I've learned that usually its only neccisary when starting from a stop or coming back onto throttle from a coasting state.

Now, at first this is going to seem really difficult and cumbersome but I promise you that you will get used to it. The pausing is only for a microsecond and you'll learn to anticipate the behavior of the transmission before it happens and then the car will feel like it drives like any other car. You'll learn instinctively to read the state of the transmission through the gas pedal and it will become natural.

I don't know if thats the best explanation but its really something you've got to try.

←

Well, I'm not quite sure I follow that, but I'll give it a try.

Thanks.

[SW03ES]

No problem, I'll kick around how to explain it better.

[sonewsy]

No problem, I'll kick around how to explain it better.

←

Um, I don't drive my 2005 ES any differently than I drove my 1993 Camry or any other car, including my hubby's Explorer. I haven't felt the hesitation unless I am driving between 1-5 mph. Maybe I'm lucky so far, have 2,100 miles.

I asked this question before. Will the lagging at higher speeds happen after a certain mileage? Am I in for a rude awakening any day now?

Also, FYI, the new Avalon also has the hesitation issue, too, according to USA TODAY.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/review...2005-02-10-ava- lon_x.htm

[SW03ES]

Not neccisarly, MOST people never feel the hesitation it all depends on how you drive.

[alloy]

Not neccisarly, MOST people never feel the hesitation it all depends on how you drive.

←

This is true. I did not feel the hesitation until I needed the power of my 02ES300. And it was almost too late.

I have picked up my daughter up from ballet the last two nights. The studio is located in Sandy Spring, Md. right on a two lane major cross county road (Rt. 108). There aren't any stop lights and it is a very busy road.

Tuesday evening after pick up, I waited 10 minutes for both ways to clear (I was turning left onto the road). When clear, I started to accelerate normally when a car came around the bend to my left heading at a high rate of speed. Since I was halfway out in the road, I hit the gas pedal....you guessed it...my technological wonder of a lexus hesitated and it felt like it cut power. I jabbed the gas pedal several times and made it across the road just in time not to be hit. Had to change my wears when I got home.

Then last night, same place, it happened again. Same situation. I went home and told my wife that we need to trade it in on a vehicle that isn't this dangerous. She said that before we do that to call the lexus of rockville service department (been using them since 1993 for our LS400) and see what can be done.

I will not drive this vehicle again.

Anybody have any thoughts?

[amf1932]

Not neccisarly, MOST people never feel the hesitation it all depends on how you drive.

←

This is true. I did not feel the hesitation until I needed the power of my 02ES300. And it was almost too late.

I have picked up my daughter up from ballet the last two nights. The studio is located in Sandy Spring, Md. right on a two lane major cross county road (Rt. 108). There aren't any stop lights and it is a very busy road.

Tuesday evening after pick up, I waited 10 minutes for both ways to clear (I was turning left onto the road). When clear, I started to accelerate normally when a car came around the bend to my left heading at a high rate of speed. Since I was halfway out in the road, I hit the gas pedal....you guessed it...my technological wonder of a lexus hesitated and it felt like it cut power. I jabbed the gas pedal several times and made it across the road just in time not to be hit. Had to change my wears when I got home.

Then last night, same place, it happened again. Same situation. I went home and told my wife that we need to trade it in on a vehicle that isn't this dangerous. She said that before we do that to call the lexus of rockville service department (been using them since 1993 for our LS400) and see what can be done.

I will not drive this vehicle again.

Anybody have any thoughts?

←

alloy-

Thanks for that very informative, descriptive post.

This is what I have been moaning and groaning about ever since I purchased my '03ES. As I've said before, I can control the shifting very nicely, but when you're in a position that needs immediate power and the car doesn't go into a lower gear without hunting(hesitating), then this is creating a very dangerous situation. I'm tired of hearing about how well other drivers can control the shifting of their cars, because I can drive their cars and replicate this shifting idiosyncrasy when conditions are such as you described. EVERY single '02 thru '04 that I've driven(about 12) had this problem. If this is what new technology affords.......then give me back the old technology.

[SW03ES]

I have driven right there dozens of times and have never experienced that sort of hesitation. Long enough to stab the pedal? Its a split second kind of thing.

Has your 02 had the transmission update flash?

[amf1932]

I have driven right there dozens of times and have never experienced that sort of hesitation. Long enough to stab the pedal? Its a split second kind of thing.

Has your 02 had the transmission update flash?

←

It seems that you've never been put in an emergency situation that required immediate response, as had 'alloy', and others who have described their experiences. I can assure you that if you were, you'd also be shocked and scared.

BTW: The only thing that changed with the, "transmission update flash", was the shift points, but it did not address what we are talking about....immediate downshifting in emergency situations when you tromp on the accelerator!

[alloy]

I have driven right there dozens of times and have never experienced that sort of hesitation. Long enough to stab the pedal? Its a split second kind of thing.

Has your 02 had the transmission update flash?

←

I bought it used with 25,000 miles on it. Now has 29,000.

And you are very right....it is a split second kind of thing. I started out normally with about 1/4 throttle. Then due to the situation, I pushed the gas pedal to the floor and when power cut out, I started furiously pumping that gas pedal to get across the road into the parking lot across the street before I was hit. My lexus dealer told me there wasn't anything unusual in the lexus databanks as far as my ES300 was concerned.

So I'm calling the lexus dealer service person to tell him what happened and ask if there is anything that can be done. I will ask him if the reflash has been done also. Thank you.

Just got off the phone with the service person. He said to try turning off the VSR and see if that helps. I havn't seen a VSR off button, but I'm going to look.

Then he pulled up the TSB for the reflash. Said it was for 02-03's. And if the above doesn't work, he will do the reflash.

[amf1932]

I have driven right there dozens of times and have never experienced that sort of hesitation. Long enough to stab the pedal? Its a split second kind of thing.

Has your 02 had the transmission update flash?

←

I bought it used with 25,000 miles on it. Now has 29,000.

And you are very right....it is a split second kind of thing. I started out normally with about 1/4 throttle. Then due to the situation, I pushed the gas pedal to the floor and when power cut out, I started furiously pumping that gas pedal to get across the road into the parking lot across the street before I was hit. My lexus dealer told me there wasn't anything unusual in the lexus databanks as far as my ES300 was concerned.

So I'm calling the lexus dealer service person to tell him what happened and ask if there is anything that can be done. I will ask him if the reflash has been done also. Thank you.

Just got off the phone with the service person. He said to try turning off the VSR and see if that helps. I havn't seen a VSR off button, but I'm going to look.

Then he pulled up the TSB for the reflash. Said it was for 02-03's. And if the above doesn't work, he will do the reflash.

←

Sorry......the reflash is not going to help this problem.

[SW03ES]

You mean VSC? The button is on the dash beneath the ignition. Its not plainly visible its kind of like the trunk and fuel door buttons. Thats not going to make a difference though.

There was a transmission reflash that came out, my ES has it by virtue that it came with it built in, yours may not have it. That may make a difference.

I think most of your problem is that you have to be smooth when going to wide open throttle on this car otherwise it will hesitate before it downshifts. You can't go from 1/4 to full, you've got to ease into it. You'll actually find that it doesn't slow your ability to accelerate at all.

[amf1932]

You can't go from 1/4 to full, you've got to ease into it.

Sometimes you don't have the time to ease into it.

You'll actually find that it doesn't slow your ability to accelerate at all.

Oh yes it does. IMO

[SW03ES]

Thats your opinion, I don't share it. I've driven this car for over 40,000 miles and I know how to drive it smoothly and safely.

[Go4Shoped]

Ok. im kinda too lazy to look through the other 14 pages that i havent read. is there a fix or not? i have a temporary fix that ive been using in my mom's 02 es300. its just simply not going 40 and easing on the gas.

my dad already went to the dealer and asked about it but they said there isnt anything they could do about it.