Oil Sludge

[kelleyg]

[No engine that has had regular oil changes (5,000-7,500 miles) will have sludge. ]

Sorry to say my engine has had oil changes every 3-5,000 for the life of the vehicle and now has sludge. And it has had tune ups as well - the car has been cared for - really.

Thanks for the other info though - they are fixing my engine and I have opted out of the settlement at the advice of the court appointed 3rd party, so that if I have any future problems after 8 yrs is up - I could still bring them to court if they do not fix it (as I do have sludge b4 warranty is up and proof of maintenance)

[TunedRX300]

[No engine that has had regular oil changes (5,000-7,500 miles) will have sludge. ]

Sorry to say my engine has had oil changes every 3-5,000 for the life of the vehicle and now has sludge. And it has had tune ups as well - the car has been cared for - really.

Thanks for the other info though - they are fixing my engine and I have opted out of the settlement at the advice of the court appointed 3rd party, so that if I have any future problems after 8 yrs is up - I could still bring them to court if they do not fix it (as I do have sludge b4 warranty is up and proof of maintenance)

What brand of oil you used? dino or synthetic? Who changed the oil for you?

[tmastres]

Sorry to say my engine has had oil changes every 3-5,000 for the life of the vehicle and now has sludge. And it has had tune ups as well - the car has been cared for - really.

As I've mentioned in other threads on the issue, I don't believe 5000mi intervals in this engine with dino oil is sufficient, 3000 max, maybe. Personally I think its foolish to run dino oil at all in these engines knowing they run so hot and knowing their history of sludging.

[mburnickas]

As I've mentioned in other threads on the issue, I don't believe 5000mi intervals in this engine with dino oil is sufficient, 3000 max, maybe. Personally I think its foolish to run dino oil at all in these engines knowing they run so hot and knowing their history of sludging.

I disagree. I have been doing 10 to 12,000 miles on my Es300 using Amsoil and look nice.Only way to find out is oil test. I am now using LC20 and a blend (group 3) and then compare.

If you have sludge with short drain I would look in other areas like PCV etc; not oil.

Not bad for long drains in a sludge motor.

[TunedRX300]

As I've mentioned in other threads on the issue, I don't believe 5000mi intervals in this engine with dino oil is sufficient, 3000 max, maybe. Personally I think its foolish to run dino oil at all in these engines knowing they run so hot and knowing their history of sludging.

I disagree. I have been doing 10 to 12,000 miles on my Es300 using Amsoil and look nice.Only way to find out is oil test. I am now using LC20 and a blend (group 3) and then compare.

If you have sludge with short drain I would look in other areas like PCV etc; not oil.

Not bad for long drains in a sludge motor.

Amsoil does not make dino oil, tmastres is making a statement about how long dino oil last in 1mz-fe, not synthetic oil + doping with 1 oz of LC20 every 1K. If you have UOAs of dino oil that goes past 5K with 1mz-fe, please post.

With due respect to your personal experience, one 1mz-fe does not have sludge, it does not mean all 1mz-fe do not have sludge.

[mburnickas]

Amsoil does not make dino oil, tmastres is making a statement about how long dino oil last in 1mz-fe, not synthetic oil + doping with 1 oz of LC20 every 1K. If you have UOAs of dino oil that goes past 5K with 1mz-fe, please post.

With due respect to your personal experience, one 1mz-fe does not have sludge, it does not mean all 1mz-fe do not have sludge.

Well yes they (amsoil) do. It is there Xl series. If you follow the manual, you will not have sludge. I think the sludge issue is WAY over blow. There are over 3,000,000 engines and a little over 3,000 sludge engines; that in percents is damn small. What does that say? Some do not follow the manual and make an issue. I am doing almost 2 times the drains WITHOUT LC and you see the pixs.

I just started the LC about 6 months ago and only have one test. So far, people are crazy not to try it. Works wonders with a $6 per qt oil.

If you use a SM rated oil and follow the "book, you will be fine.

[TunedRX300]

Amsoil does not make dino oil, tmastres is making a statement about how long dino oil last in 1mz-fe, not synthetic oil + doping with 1 oz of LC20 every 1K. If you have UOAs of dino oil that goes past 5K with 1mz-fe, please post.

With due respect to your personal experience, one 1mz-fe does not have sludge, it does not mean all 1mz-fe do not have sludge.

Well yes they (amsoil) do. It is there Xl series. If you follow the manual, you will not have sludge. I think the sludge issue is WAY over blow. There are over 3,000,000 engines and a little over 3,000 sludge engines; that in percents is damn small. What does that say? Some do not follow the manual and make an issue. I am doing almost 2 times the drains WITHOUT LC and you see the pixs.

I just started the LC about 6 months ago and only have one test. So far, people are crazy not to try it. Works wonders with a $6 per qt oil.

If you use a SM rated oil and follow the "book, you will be fine.

Toyota has issued a sludge recall/warranty, it is fair to say there is a design issue. BTW, I doubt anyone is naive to believe the above stats because 1) only Toyota knows the REAL stats 2) who can guarantee sludged # won't increase in % as engines age?

LC20 is a great product, but few are willing to shell out major $ for additives, plus remembering adding 1-2 oz of LC20 every 1K. I use Amsoil 5w-20 in my Acura, however, many don't want to shell out premium $ for Amsoil, then throw extra $ and effort to dope it with LC20.

If one needs to spend that kind of $ and effort to avoid sludge then something is wrong here. People just want oil 1) lubes engine so it won't break down before they sell 2) reasonably priced 3) relatively maintenace free. Personally, I believe it is crazy to go Amsoil + LC20 + "glue your eyes on the odo or you will miss the insulin shot". The engine is supposed to serve the driver, not the other way around.

If one want to reach a personal goal of certain OCI interval, that is great, but that does not mean it is a personal goal for everyone here.

[tmastres]

Well yes they (amsoil) do. It is there Xl series. If you follow the manual, you will not have sludge. I think the sludge issue is WAY over blow. There are over 3,000,000 engines and a little over 3,000 sludge engines; that in percents is damn small. What does that say?

I just started the LC about 6 months ago and only have one test. So far, people are crazy not to try it. Works wonders with a $6 per qt oil.

If you use a SM rated oil and follow the "book, you will be fine.

Not really wanting to perpetuate the whole argument but looking at the Amsoil wbesite I don't see any non-synthetic oils on offer. I may be wrong and I didnt spend hours looking at every sub-product but if you meant the XL Series , XL 5W-30 Synthetic Motor Oil - quart bottle $6.00, it sure looks like thats synthetic to me

https://www.amsoil.com/storefront/SearchRes...px?CategoryID=3 . Not to mention the corporate slogan on the homepage which is "Welcome to the AMSOIL Corporate Website The Original Synthetic Motor Oil!"

In any case I'll defer to you that you know what you put in your car better than I do so lets say it is Dino oil.

Why the heck would you use $6-10 per Qt. Dino oil, which is hard to find, hard to get and costs more than Mobil-1 . Sure Amsoil is great oil and it is certainly better than the garden variety Dino oil out there but if you look at Amsoils own stats they finish just barely ahead of Mobil-1 in virtually all categories meaning that the oils are virtually identical in their protective and performance properties. Yet, Mobil can be found in just about any Auto-part store as well as K-mart, Wall-Marts and virtually any other Mart you can think of. I get mine at Costco for $4.50 (yes you have to buy a 6-pak, but still). Really, I'm not trying to be a wise-guy, I'm seriously curious about what makes Amsoil a better choice.

You're point is taken though and I respect that you feel the sludge issue is overblown. The point I'm trying to make however, is that Dino or not, Amsoil is not what most people are talking about when they ask the question about how far they can go between Dino oil-changes. They're talking about the standard oils such as Pennzoil or Havoline etc.. and theres no way I'd feel comfortable leaving those in my cars for more than 3k miles.

[Ericok]

Not bad for long drains in a sludge motor.

I give mburnickas credit as the only poster who has provided some real evidence - vs everyone else who has just posted opinions.

If it's really an engine "design" problem then every Toyota 3.0l V6 would have sludge buildup issues when using an extended drain interval. His engine was clean.

[TunedRX300]

I give mburnickas credit as the only poster who has provided some real evidence - vs everyone else who has just posted opinions.

If it's really an engine "design" problem then every Toyota 3.0l V6 would have sludge buildup issues when using an extended drain interval. His engine was clean.

Here is one sludged up after mere 8700 miles, reported by a Toyota tech.

http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/sludge/cleaning_sludge.html

I don't think there is any question here: It is Toyota that issued the sludge warranty, pretty much admitting an issue. The question is whether owners, especially who have made emotional and financially investment into Toyota/Lexus cars, willing to admit that fact.

Last, show me one UOA on a dino oil that can last 5000 miles. I posted that request to mburnickas in a previous post and so far there is no response.

I can tell you there are many UOAs on BITOG that showed 5w-30 sheared to a 20 weight oil in <200 miles of a fresh oil change, indicating abnormal physical property change. TBNs of dino oil completely depleted around 3000 miles, indicating abnormal chemical property change. All because 1mz-fe is harsh on oil due to Toyota's design.

[tmastres]

I give mburnickas credit as the only poster who has provided some real evidence - vs everyone else who has just posted opinions.

If it's really an engine "design" problem then every Toyota 3.0l V6 would have sludge buildup issues when using an extended drain interval. His engine was clean.

Kudos to anyone who post useful information here, even if they're informed opinions.

The one question I'm still interested in is whether Amsoil actually makes Dino oil? The discussion revolved around the use of Dino oil and then the use of Amsoil. For one , I couldnt find a dino oil that Amsoil makes for cars on their website.

[Ericok]

Here is one sludged up after mere 8700 miles, reported by a Toyota tech.

http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/sludge/cleaning_sludge.html

It was noted that the engine never had an oil change in the 8,700 miles (still using the original Toyota oil and filter). He does note in the last pic that he's never seen an engine with a problem that has had consistent 3-5K mile 3 month oil changes. Also interesting in that it's posted in a Honda/Accura forum. Nevertheless, an eye opener on the benefits of oil changes for this engine.

[TunedRX300]

Here is one sludged up after mere 8700 miles, reported by a Toyota tech.

http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/sludge/cleaning_sludge.html

It was noted that the engine never had an oil change in the 8,700 miles (still using the original Toyota oil and filter). He does note in the last pic that he's never seen an engine with a problem that has had consistent 3-5K mile 3 month oil changes. Also interesting in that it's posted in a Honda/Accura forum. Nevertheless, an eye opener on the benefits of oil changes for this engine.

Drivers forgot oil changes, not just Toyota owners, and most engines don't have sludge problem, Toyota do.

The fact is Toyota issued a recall/warranty to address the sludge issue, flex its PR muscles and say it is a owner issue. Who is Toyota trying to fool?

A mere 1200 miles past 1st oil change if the above engine is driven normal operating condition, aren't Toyota engines supposed to be bullet proof?

wwest posted his view yesterday in another thread, I agree with him 100%

Before, long before, Toyota finally stepped up the plate and admitted that they had an oil sludging problem, their witless "shills" were all saying that the real problem was most likely due to lack of proper maintainance on the part of owners claiming a problem. These "shills" continued making that claim even after the letter came from Toyota indicating that a design change was made to the engine in order to prevent sludging in future models.

Those "lack of proper maintainance" claims by the witless shills continue to this very day.

[SW03ES]

Here is one sludged up after mere 8700 miles, reported by a Toyota tech.

http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/sludge/cleaning_sludge.html

I don't think there is any question here: It is Toyota that issued the sludge warranty, pretty much admitting an issue. The question is whether owners, especially who have made emotional and financially investment into Toyota/Lexus cars, willing to admit that fact.

You're ignoring what the tech in the very thread you linked to is saying about the issue, I'll quote it for you.

What you've seen is a repair caused by neglect, like the other thousands of these warrantable re-builds. I have never seen one engine show any gelling with consistent 3-5k/ 3 month oil change intervals. Its a headache for everyone, so keep up on that basic maintenance!

If you're going to proport something to prove your point, you should check to make sure it doesn't actually disagree with you first, as this link does.

I don't think theres any question that the engine is prone to sludging, but many engines are. With proper maintenance however you're going to be fine. This car may have only had 8700 miles, but it had never had ONE oil change (3700 miles overdue), and you have no idea how old the car was either. Was it 8700 miles and 12 months?

Like I said, many engines have characteristics that make them prone to sludging, Cadillac's Northstar, several Saab motors, I could compile a list. Companies also settle things out of court all the time that they may not loose when they get to court just to save the hassle, negative PR, and time.

Is there an issue? Yes. Is it abnormal? Not really. Is it overwhelmingly caused by owner neglect? Yes. Has Toyota stepped up to the plate and made every reasonable effort to support owners affected despite the fact that the issue is overhwelmingly caused by neglect? Absolutely.

So, whats your point?

[TunedRX300]

Here is one sludged up after mere 8700 miles, reported by a Toyota tech.

http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/sludge/cleaning_sludge.html

I don't think there is any question here: It is Toyota that issued the sludge warranty, pretty much admitting an issue. The question is whether owners, especially who have made emotional and financially investment into Toyota/Lexus cars, willing to admit that fact.

You're ignoring what the tech in the very thread you linked to is saying about the issue, I'll quote it for you.

What you've seen is a repair caused by neglect, like the other thousands of these warrantable re-builds. I have never seen one engine show any gelling with consistent 3-5k/ 3 month oil change intervals. Its a headache for everyone, so keep up on that basic maintenance!

If you're going to proport something to prove your point, you should check to make sure it doesn't actually disagree with you first, as this link does.

I don't think theres any question that the engine is prone to sludging, but many engines are. With proper maintenance however you're going to be fine. This car may have only had 8700 miles, but it had never had ONE oil change (3700 miles overdue), and you have no idea how old the car was either. Was it 8700 miles and 12 months?

Like I said, many engines have characteristics that make them prone to sludging, Cadillac's Northstar, several Saab motors, I could compile a list. Companies also settle things out of court all the time that they may not loose when they get to court just to save the hassle, negative PR, and time.

Is there an issue? Yes. Is it abnormal? Not really. Is it overwhelmingly caused by owner neglect? Yes. Has Toyota stepped up to the plate and made every reasonable effort to support owners affected despite the fact that the issue is overhwelmingly caused by neglect? Absolutely.

So, whats your point?

My point: It is inaccurate to make a blanket statement that sludge is caused 100% by owners' neglect.

I believe there is a strange, almost cult-like following of Toyota's PR line "It is not an Toyota design issue, it is owner's fault" by some members of LOC. Just because Toyota has a industry leading reliability reputation, it does not mean 1mz-fe is reliable and free of design flaw.

Toyota's recall is all one needs to know Toyota's design is a major reason to cause 1mz-fe to sludge. It is also not logical to excuse it, by referring to other engines have similiar problems. Do we want Toyota/Lexus to be associated with the reliability level of Saab, VW, Chrysler, all second tier European and American brands? If ten other engines have design flaw, does it mean sludge is "normal", e.g. expected, to Toyota/Lexus owners?

Has Toyota stepped the plate with a 8 year reactive warranty? Compare to Hyundai's proactive 10 year 100K powertrain warranty with no known engine problem, let alone CAS' recommendation of 10 year 120K http://www.autosafety.org/article.php?scid=150&did=566 ? No. Owners not only care about sludge repair bill during their ownership but also about the resell value. How much would you pay for a 8 year Rx300 with a known engine recall and unknown maintenance history, how much would you pay for one with 2 more year of warranty coverage on the engine?

[SW03ES]

If you read what I wrote you'll see that I said the engine obviously has a tendency to sludge oil. I did however say that many engines from many different manufacturers also have this tendency. I think the data we've seen shows that the chance of sludging can be all but eliminated if you drain the oil at least every 5k and even better use synthetic oil.

Its one engine, and the manufacturer (Toyota) has extended a repair or replacement warranty, supplimented their maintenance schedule, and redesigned the engine to lessen the chances of the issue happening again on newer models, all of this for something thats been shown to predominantly only be an issue in neglected vehicles. Nobody said sludge is normal, we just said its not an uncommon issue in high temperature engine designs when oil change intervals are drawn out.

What more do you want them to do? What more can they do? Do you want them to replace your old RX300 with a new one? Why do you think that is reasonable?

How much would you pay for a 8 year Rx300 with a known engine recall and unknown maintenance history

Then document the maintenance history like a responsible car owner! Why is it Toyota's fault you have a vehicle with an unkown maintenance history? I work 60-70 hours a week and my car gets serviced exactly to how Lexus says to service it in the manual (which is a requirement for the warranty by the way) and I have a file of every reciept for every service the car's ever had. Its YOUR fault your car will be worth less than mine because you couldn't keep the records together, not Toyota's.

[TunedRX300]

If you read what I wrote you'll see that I said the engine obviously has a tendency to sludge oil. I did however say that many engines from many different manufacturers also have this tendency. I think the data we've seen shows that the chance of sludging can be all but eliminated if you drain the oil at least every 5k and even better use synthetic oil.

First 5K is not a maximum interval Toyota stated for oil change interval. 5K is for those with severe driving condition such as towing, taxi, driving exclusively on dusty roads, not every RX owner drives in severe conditions.

Second, Used Oil Analyis reports, posted by independent car owners, show that even if owner change at 5K interval with dino oil, 1mz-fe used up the oil long before 5K. It is myth that no 1mz-fe get sludged if owner change oil at 5K. I don't understand where the myth originates from and why people helped to spread the myth. Here are Used Oil Analysis reports by independent labs, posted by independent owners to bust the myth.

For example, this UOA showed viscosity of Toyota branded 5w-30 sheared to a 20 weight oil in <200 miles. The owner could not believe it, did a Virgin Oil Analysis, lab report confirmed the physical property change. TBN, the acid fighting additives, decrease from 7.2 to 3 after a mere 1500 miles. Cu also shot up to 12 ppm, Fe shot up to 18 ppm

http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/sho...p;Number=213737

A Camry V6 with dino fill, same 1mzfe engine with 3587 miles, TBN is 2.7, oil is already used up

http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/sho...p;Number=255160

Another Toyota V6 with Pennzoil dino, TBN is 0.7 after 2400 miles, Pb is 131 ppm, indicating high bearing wear. Switched to Chevron Supreme dino, not much better

http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/sho...p;Number=214899

RX300 is even more taxing on the engine than Camry sedan. With the same 1mz-fe engine, RX should chew up oil at a even faster rate due to the extra weight and payload.

The above scientific lab reports indicates 5K oil change interval will not be enough to avoid sludge. Stop blaming the owners!

Its one engine, and the manufacturer (Toyota) has extended a repair or replacement warranty, supplimented their maintenance schedule, and redesigned the engine to lessen the chances of the issue happening again on newer models, all of this for something thats been shown to predominantly only be an issue in neglected vehicles. Nobody said sludge is normal, we just said its not an uncommon issue in high temperature engine designs when oil change intervals are drawn out.

What more do you want them to do? What more can they do? Do you want them to replace your old RX300 with a new one? Why do you think that is reasonable?

That one engine covers Camry V6, Avalon, Solara, Sienna, Highlander, RX300, ES300, all best or volume sellers of its class. The impact of one flawed engine impact far more owners than all VW, Saab, Chrysler models combined. Ironically, many Toyota owners buys the brand because they want to avoid engine problem and repair worries and hassle in the first place. For both Toyota and owners, one engine with bad design is one too many.

Here are ways Toyota can do.

1) Step up to Hyundai (did I just said that) power train warranty level. Toyota has a design flaw, it is reasonable to to step up to the level of warranty commitment of a fellow Asian competitor.

2) Stop using PR to blame owners and alienate itself from past, current, and future customers.

3) Stop giving out false information about sludge fix when the cause of the sludge is not fixed.

4) Focus on reliability and providing quality products, and be committed to sustain the level of quality excellence. In 2005 Toyota recalled more cars than it built, that is a shameful stats reported by NHTSA

Then document the maintenance history like a responsible car owner! Why is it Toyota's fault you have a vehicle with an unkown maintenance history? I work 60-70 hours a week and my car gets serviced exactly to how Lexus says to service it in the manual (which is a requirement for the warranty by the way) and I have a file of every reciept for every service the car's ever had. Its YOUR fault your car will be worth less than mine because you couldn't keep the records together, not Toyota's.

The buyer does not know which car is sludge free and which one is not, the entire resell market value reflects this worry, which can only be assured with long extended warranty. Try to explain to a potential buyer to disregards KBB resell value, Toyota's recall letter, and the settlement of sludge law suit with your maintenance record. Want to have above market value simply you did the oil change by the book? Good luck, and God helps all of us who do DIY oil changes.

Redesign is a Toyota PR tool. A cheap patch up design saves Toyota from a costly redesign and serves the marketing purpose "Hey we did a redesign". According to this articles, it does NOT address the cause of the sludge.

http://www.autosafety.org/article.php?scid=150&did=1090

Bruce Crawley, a lubrication specialist for ExxonMobil Corp., said the first thing he would look for in investigating a sludge problem would be "cold spots" on surfaces where the oil circulates, because large variances in internal engine temperatures can cause sludge.

"You don't want any cold spots because that's where you get acid forming," he said. "You'll get oil coming up one way and acid coming down the other way, and ultimately they contact. On some engines you can actually see where that is happening because you'll see deposits in a particular part of the engine where there is a cold spot."

Larry Parry, an independent repair technician in Orlando, Fla., and host of a radio auto-repair talk show, says Toyota's change to the oil baffles won't stop the sludge from building up.

"There's nothing on top of the engine restricting the drain at all in that motor," he said. The internal temperatures are the problem, contends Parry.

Parry said he has measured the temperature of the cylinder block and heads. He said the block runs at 190 to 210 degrees Fahrenheit, while the heads typically reach 260 to 270 degrees.

Parry, who says he has repaired about 30 sludge-filled Toyota engines since 1998, contends the V-6's cylinder head temperature is too high because Toyota reduced the size of coolant passages in the head gaskets.

He says that makes for a hotter, cleaner burn, but also causes sludge to build up because the oil gets too hot. Also, Parry says, sludge develops as the oil passes back into the block, which is running 60 to 70 degrees cooler.

According to General Motors, the industry standard for temperature differences between the cylinder head and engine block is between 10 and 15 degrees.

Hanson said cooling passages were not made smaller and there are no 60-degree temperature variances inside the engine.

[consumeradvocate]

[second, Used Oil Analyis reports, posted by independent car owners, show that even if owner change at 5K interval with dino oil, 1mz-fe used up the oil long before 5K. It is myth that no 1mz-fe get sludged if owner change oil at 5K. I don't understand where the myth originates from and why people helped to spread the myth. Here are Used Oil Analysis reports by independent labs, posted by independent owners to bust the myth.

You're right on, TunedRX300! Oil analyses are most revealing on these engines. I own a 1999 Sienna and each of my oil analyses shows "Abnormal Lubricant Condition" no matter what the oil change interval. For instance, once I changed the oil after just 2,900 miles. The TBN was reduced to 2.67! The viscosity was also reduced. Even with roughly 5,000 mile oil changes, the TBN is reduced to well below 2! Nitration is above the maximum range even with a 5,500 mile oil change.

Some owners of these engines have found excessive fuel in the oil on analysis. Others have found glycol contamination of the oil. Still others have found metal bits in the used oil with use of a magnet. Aside from premature breakdown of the oil, there seems to be contaminates originating from other sources. What factors are leading to these findings? As we know, contamination of the engine oil serves to further diminish the effectiveness of the oil.

It is truly a myth that every 3,000 mile oil changes and/or exclusive use of synthetics will prevent the development of Toyota engine sludge. Far too many Toyota vehicle owners have given accounts of sludge formation with better than recommended oil changes and/or use of synthetic engine oil. This myth has obviously become part of the PR used to counter the postings of the Toyota owner experiences. A common refrain at the Toyota dealerships is that Siennas used as taxis have over 300,000 miles on the them and that their engines are "as clean as a whistle." Every dealership has the mantra down, "We have never seen a case of engine oil sludge in a properly maintained vehicle." In fact, there are many, many Toyota owner accounts of proper (actually better than proper) maintenance and the development of engine oil sludge.

I agree that it is an insult to the customers to keep blaming them for this malady. Not only that, many Toyota owners never received the so-called CSP notification letter originally. I recently spoke to a co-worker who has a 1998 Celica. She was never sent the letter and knows nothing about the engine oil sludge problem. She is far from alone. A Toyota executive admitted to stopping the first mailings of the SPA letter when customers began to discuss how accusatory it was. All 3.3 million affected Toyota owners were supposed to receive the second letter about the CSP, but it just hasn't happened. I still don't understand why Toyota did not follow through on its very public promise.

Even with the class action lawsuit, Toyota "promises" to take certain actions. BUT, are there loopholes it will take advantage of? What exactly is "reasonable maintenance" and is Toyota going to change the original requirements and penalize the owners? We know that Toyota said publicly that oil change receipts were not all that important and that one receipt in 12 months time was the minimum. Behind the scenes, though, Toyota owners report that ALL the receipts are required and that Toyota is denying CSP claims if they are not submitted. Is this FAIR? What is the reason for the change in requirement? Why is one thing being stated publicly while another thing is being done privately? Toyota should know that Toyota owners are going to compare notes and find all this out.

Regarding the class action lawsuit, it seems like a real good deal for Toyota. However, it really doesn't do anything for all the Toyota owners who no longer own their vehicle and/or who threw out all documentation. It doesn't do anything for those Toyota owners who own other models and model years that also developed sludge under the same conditions. It doesn't do anything for those who don't put much mileage on their vehicles and/or those who have not yet had the sludge symptoms. What is does do is to give an additional notice (maybe the FIRST ONE) for the sludge-prone Toyota vehicle owners. It has been awhile and the CSP information is difficult to find even on the Toyota website itself! Nonetheless, Toyota owner accounts continue to accumulate (see Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution online petition). The recent online media coverage of the Toyota engine oil class action lawsuit has renewed the online discussion that has continued for six years or more. Many Toyota owners feel that Toyota should be extending their vehicle warranty further. Some Toyota owners are still getting the short end of the stick in this matter.

Unfortunately, some sites where detailed discussions between Toyota owners, engineers, oil experts, etc., took place daily were hacked and are no longer available. Two sites went down almost at the exact time in 2004...very mysteriously! Even the moderators at the sites were taken aback by the actions of some wishing to interfere with consumer freedom of speech! One wonders if more would have been uncovered had the discussions been allowed to continue. After all, the discussions of Toyota owner engine oil analyses and the design of these engines, in addition to the maintenance issue (and recommended maintenance schedule) are paramount to uncovering the true cause of Toyota engine oil sludge. Without this data, there is simply no way that Toyota can say this is exclusively an owner maintenance issue.

[Ericok]

It is truly a myth that every 3,000 mile oil changes and/or exclusive use of synthetics will prevent the development of Toyota engine sludge. Far too many Toyota vehicle owners have given accounts of sludge formation with better than recommended oil changes and/or use of synthetic engine oil. This myth has obviously become part of the PR used to counter the postings of the Toyota owner experiences. A common refrain at the Toyota dealerships is that Siennas used as taxis have over 300,000 miles on the them and that their engines are "as clean as a whistle." Every dealership has the mantra down, "We have never seen a case of engine oil sludge in a properly maintained vehicle." In fact, there are many, many Toyota owner accounts of proper (actually better than proper) maintenance and the development of engine oil sludge.

Maybe I'm missing something but didn't mburnidkas say that he changed his oil every 10,000-12,000 miles? He actually photographed the inside of his engine and it was clean. Based on that, I wouldn't say changing oil every 3,000 miles to prevent sludge is a myth. I'd actually be interested in seeing someone with a sludged engine post his oil change receipts to show that the recommended maintenance was performed - other than just posting their "account of proper maintenance". I'm not implying this engine doesn't have a sludge problem. I'm saying that if you change your oil every 5,000 miles you won't have a problem.

[SW03ES]

First 5K is not a maximum interval Toyota stated for oil change interval. 5K is for those with severe driving condition such as towing, taxi, driving exclusively on dusty roads, not every RX owner drives in severe conditions.

No problem then, if you develop sludge and go by the 7500 mile oil change interval then Lexus will repair or replace your engine free of charge. Whats the issue?

Second, Used Oil Analyis reports, posted by independent car owners, show that even if owner change at 5K interval with dino oil, 1mz-fe used up the oil long before 5K. It is myth that no 1mz-fe get sludged if owner change oil at 5K. I don't understand where the myth originates from and why people helped to spread the myth. Here are Used Oil Analysis reports by independent labs, posted by independent owners to bust the myth.

Okay, then where are the hoardes of Lexus owners swamping these forums and dealerships for sludge repairs on cars with perfect maintenance histories? Remember if your maintenance history is legit (or even if its not) Lexus will repair sludge for free. Whats the issue?

That one engine covers Camry V6, Avalon, Solara, Sienna, Highlander, RX300, ES300, all best or volume sellers of its class. The impact of one flawed engine impact far more owners than all VW, Saab, Chrysler models combined. Ironically, many Toyota owners buys the brand because they want to avoid engine problem and repair worries and hassle in the first place. For both Toyota and owners, one engine with bad design is one too many

They've agreed to replace or repair the engines affected free of charge, they've redesigned the engine to fix the problem. What more can they do?

And again, that is MILLIONS AND MILLIONS of engines. Why such a small percentage with sludge?

Here are ways Toyota can do.

1) Step up to Hyundai (did I just said that) power train warranty level. Toyota has a design flaw, it is reasonable to to step up to the level of warranty commitment of a fellow Asian competitor.

One Asian competitor. You have any idea the cost analysis that has to go into a warranty like that? If you want that warranty, buy a Hyundai.

2) Stop using PR to blame owners and alienate itself from past, current, and future customers.

I don't think they've done that actually. People like me who think you all whine too much may do that, and the data shows that overwhelmingly sludge is found in vehicles with incomplete maintenance histories, and the percentage of owners with sludge compared to the number of units in service is not even 1%, but I don't see Toyota blaming it on anyone. In fact I can think of many stories about when they replaced engines on cars that had never had their oil changed ever.

3) Stop giving out false information about sludge fix when the cause of the sludge is not fixed.

Again what do you want them to do, give everyone updated engines? That would bankrupt them.

4) Focus on reliability and providing quality products, and be committed to sustain the level of quality excellence. In 2005 Toyota recalled more cars than it built, that is a shameful stats reported by NHTSA

Yeah because Toyota has never concerned itself with quality.

At least they volunteer to recall cars as opposed to other manufacturers who wait to be sued before they do it.

The buyer does not know which car is sludge free and which one is not, the entire resell market value reflects this worry, which can only be assured with long extended warranty. Try to explain to a potential buyer to disregards KBB resell value, Toyota's recall letter, and the settlement of sludge law suit with your maintenance record. Want to have above market value simply you did the oil change by the book? Good luck, and God helps all of us who do DIY oil changes.

Waah waah waah.

Redesign is a Toyota PR tool. A cheap patch up design saves Toyota from a costly redesign and serves the marketing purpose "Hey we did a redesign". According to this articles, it does NOT address the cause of the sludge.

Then why has sludge never been reported in a vehicle with the redesigned motor?

If you're bothered by it, sell the car and buy something else. What does the whining get you? Ulcers.

[consumeradvocate]

Then why has sludge never been reported in a vehicle with the redesigned motor?

There have been plenty of Toyota owner reports of sludge in the redesigned engines. A 2003 Camry owner has been trying to get a resolution for quite some time now. She is not alone.

You say there are no reports. Where is the data coming from? I am just curious about Toyota's take on this data. How many owners have sent letters to it since the CSP?

[SW03ES]

Then why has sludge never been reported in a vehicle with the redesigned motor?

There have been plenty of Toyota owner reports of sludge in the redesigned engines. A 2003 Camry owner has been trying to get a resolution for quite some time now. She is not alone.

You say there are no reports. Where is the data coming from? I am just curious about Toyota's take on this data. How many owners have sent letters to it since the CSP?

Show us these reports then.

And how would I know what Toyota's take is?

[TunedRX300]

No problem then, if you develop sludge and go by the 7500 mile oil change interval then Lexus will repair or replace your engine free of charge. Whats the issue?

The issue is posters here giving out false information that if owners follow Lexus' maintenance schedule (5K or 7.5K), no sludge will ever occur. Replace a sludged engine with another one, without changing anything else, the same time bomb will start ticking again. How about Lexus admitting the maintenance schedule is inadequate for 1mz-fe?

Second, Used Oil Analyis reports, posted by independent car owners, show that even if owner change at 5K interval with dino oil, 1mz-fe used up the oil long before 5K. It is myth that no 1mz-fe get sludged if owner change oil at 5K. I don't understand where the myth originates from and why people helped to spread the myth. Here are Used Oil Analysis reports by independent labs, posted by independent owners to bust the myth.

Okay, then where are the hoardes of Lexus owners swamping these forums and dealerships for sludge repairs on cars with perfect maintenance histories? Remember if your maintenance history is legit (or even if its not) Lexus will repair sludge for free. Whats the issue?

Please read my post. To recap just for you.

1) 8 year sludge warranty does not cover financial injury of decreased resell value due to Toyota's design problem.

2) Length of warranty is below industry standard and Center for Auto Safety's recommendation

3) What about hassle of retaining maintenance receipt and burden to provide them to service managers, who will pay for time and gas spend going to the dealers?

That one engine covers Camry V6, Avalon, Solara, Sienna, Highlander, RX300, ES300, all best or volume sellers of its class. The impact of one flawed engine impact far more owners than all VW, Saab, Chrysler models combined. Ironically, many Toyota owners buys the brand because they want to avoid engine problem and repair worries and hassle in the first place. For both Toyota and owners, one engine with bad design is one too many

They've agreed to replace or repair the engines affected free of charge, they've redesigned the engine to fix the problem. What more can they do?

Please read, to re-quote the link I posted above just for you. The fix does not solve the cause of the sludge.

Also search UOAs on 3mz-fe on BITOG and you will be surprised to see how it chew up oil.

Larry Parry, an independent repair technician in Orlando, Fla., and host of a radio auto-repair talk show, says Toyota's change to the oil baffles won't stop the sludge from building up.

"There's nothing on top of the engine restricting the drain at all in that motor," he said. The internal temperatures are the problem, contends Parry.

Parry said he has measured the temperature of the cylinder block and heads. He said the block runs at 190 to 210 degrees Fahrenheit, while the heads typically reach 260 to 270 degrees.

Parry, who says he has repaired about 30 sludge-filled Toyota engines since 1998, contends the V-6's cylinder head temperature is too high because Toyota reduced the size of coolant passages in the head gaskets.

He says that makes for a hotter, cleaner burn, but also causes sludge to build up because the oil gets too hot. Also, Parry says, sludge develops as the oil passes back into the block, which is running 60 to 70 degrees cooler.

According to General Motors, the industry standard for temperature differences between the cylinder head and engine block is between 10 and 15 degrees.

And again, that is MILLIONS AND MILLIONS of engines. Why such a small percentage with sludge?

Does it even occur to you that sludge can slowly form over time, if you have scientific data that shows % or # of sludges reported will stay as 1mz-fe engines age, please post.

One Asian competitor. You have any idea the cost analysis that has to go into a warranty like that? If you want that warranty, buy a Hyundai.

Great, now "Love America or Leave" logical fallacy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

There are alternatives other than taking Toyota's sludge warranty or buy another brand. One option is keep the car and have Toyota step up the warranty to 10 years 100/120K and be honest about the cause of the sludge instead offering a "fix" that does not solve any problem. This is the very topic we are discussing in this thread, why do you want to eliminate it?

3) Stop giving out false information about sludge fix when the cause of the sludge is not fixed.

Again what do you want them to do, give everyone updated engines? That would bankrupt them.

Please read, Toyota needs to step up the warranty to 10 years 100/120K. Toyota has a design flaw, who is responsible for to find an acceptable solution? Owners?

4) Focus on reliability and providing quality products, and be committed to sustain the level of quality excellence. In 2005 Toyota recalled more cars than it built, that is a shameful stats reported by NHTSA

Yeah because Toyota has never concerned itself with quality.

At least they volunteer to recall cars as opposed to other manufacturers who wait to be sued before they do it.

Would like to see recall # decrease over the years instead of increasing, past quality reputation does not mean that reputation will sustain in the future. Don't assume. See NHTSA graph attached, reported by WSJ

The buyer does not know which car is sludge free and which one is not, the entire resell market value reflects this worry, which can only be assured with long extended warranty. Try to explain to a potential buyer to disregards KBB resell value, Toyota's recall letter, and the settlement of sludge law suit with your maintenance record. Want to have above market value simply you did the oil change by the book? Good luck, and God helps all of us who do DIY oil changes.

Waah waah waah.

Thank you for posting a personal insult, isn't that against forum rules? Mr Management?

Redesign is a Toyota PR tool. A cheap patch up design saves Toyota from a costly redesign and serves the marketing purpose "Hey we did a redesign". According to this articles, it does NOT address the cause of the sludge.

Then why has sludge never been reported in a vehicle with the redesigned motor?

If you're bothered by it, sell the car and buy something else. What does the whining get you? Ulcers.

Check UOAs on BITOG on 3mz-fe and come back to discuss the redesigned engine. Are you sure no sludge will ever be found on the redesigned engine?

I am not bothered, nor do I want to insult someone who posts a different view. I want to share data and fact for those who have no hidden motives and agenda. LOC is not a cult following of Toyota brand or a kiss you-know-what group to Lexus.

Just like the tranny issue, talk to independent mechanics and shops, search for UOA independent lab reports, take off your Toyota/Lexus blinders, you will be amazed what you found out.

[SW03ES]

The issue is posters here giving out false information that if owners follow Lexus' maintenance schedule (5K or 7.5K), no sludge will ever occur. Replace a sludged engine with another one, without changing anything else, the same time bomb will start ticking again. How about Lexus admitting the maintenance schedule is inadequate for 1mz-fe?

You haven't shown us any evidence at all that would suggest following the maintenance schedule doesn't help guard against sludge. When you show us evidence of that, we'll stop giving out that information. All the evidence WE'VE seen says that its true.

As to the maintenance schedule, every Lexus dealer tells you 7.5k is not sufficient.

Please read my post. To recap just for you.

1) 8 year sludge warranty does not cover financial injury of decreased resell value due to Toyota's design problem.

Because the so called "decreased resale value" is impossible to quantify. What if a car does poorly in crash tests? Does that affect resale value? Maybe. If it does should that manufacturer pay out a difference between the actual value and what it would have been if the crash tests have been perfect? How would they come up with that number? This is impossible.

2) Length of warranty is below industry standard and Center for Auto Safety's recommendation

What industry standard? Because one auto manufacturer has a longer warranty. And guess what, that Hyundai warranty does NOT cover engine sludging because thats considered a maintenance item! So its not even comparable to the Lexus campaign.

3) What about hassle of retaining maintenance receipt and burden to provide them to service managers, who will pay for time and gas spend going to the dealers?

You mean you want them to pay you damages? HAHAHA. Courts don't award people damages, you're a grown up and you have to suck it up and deal. One trip to the dealer won't kill you, and your time isn't that important. As to the hassle of keeping reciepts, thats not a hassle again thats what responsible car owners do and its required to maintain the warranty. When I get back from a service I just drop my reciept in a folder in my filing cabinet. No hassle. Gotta suck that up and stop whining about that too. I've always kept every service reciept for every car. If you have service done at Lexus guess what, its in the computer!

Please read, to re-quote the link I posted above just for you. The fix does not solve the cause of the sludge.

Also search UOAs on 3mz-fe on BITOG and you will be surprised to see how it chew up oil.

You posted one opinion, and its certainly not fact. Some guy who has a radio show, yee-haw. You also posted a link from Toyota's competitor saying the temp differentials are not proper, what would you expect their competitor to say? As for as oil tests, so what if the car chews up oil in some people's tests? Why only 4,000 sludge engines in millions of units in service? Why does our own mburnickas, an oil head, change his oil with synthetic every 10k miles and post perfect oil test results and pictures proving he has no sludge?

Please read, Toyota needs to step up the warranty to 10 years 100/120K. Toyota has a design flaw, who is responsible for to find an acceptable solution? Owners?

Why does this extra 2 years make such a difference? And why a mileage restriction when there is none in the latest Toyota campaign? 8 years and unlimited mileage is pretty fair IMHO.

Would like to see recall # decrease over the years instead of increasing, past quality reputation does not mean that reputation will sustain in the future. Don't assume. See NHTSA graph attached, reported by WSJ

Well you have to understand how proportions work. If Toyota recalls a certain percentage of their cars, and they sell more and more cars every year, the proportion of recalls to sales should stay the same but the overall number of recalls will go up. Look at the proportion so far in 2006 in your graph, looks a lot better than 2005.

Thank you for posting a personal insult, isn't that against forum rules? Mr Management?

Saying that you're whining is not a personal insult, and you are whining. What would you have Toyota do about your percieved resale issue? There are hundreds of things that become known after a car is new that effect resale, how well the paint ages, the crash test results, overall reliability, percentage of cars leased, roll out of new models. These effects are subtle and can't really be quantified since they have nothing to compare them to. Should a carmaker reimburse owners for some made up amount of percieved loss of resale value when they roll out a new model and devalue the old ones? Your Lexus is 7 years old...its depreciated a LOT and this issue isn't causing that.

Check UOAs on BITOG on 3mz-fe and come back to discuss the redesigned engine. Are you sure no sludge will ever be found on the redesigned engine?

I don't care about oil tests, where is the sludge? That engines been out since 2002, we should have some sludge.

I am not bothered, nor do I want to insult someone who posts a different view. I want to share data and fact for those who have no hidden motives and agenda. LOC is not a cult following of Toyota brand or a kiss you-know-what group to Lexus.

Just like the tranny issue, talk to independent mechanics and shops, search for UOA independent lab reports, take off your Toyota/Lexus blinders, you will be amazed what you found out.

What are my hidden motives and agenda? LOL. You take yourself too seriously, its a car this is not a government conspiracy to rob you of $1,000 of resale value maybe someday. I don't work for Toyota, I don't care what you do. I do however think this issue is way overblown and constantly reading the whining from people like you who can't be bothered to keep records and complaining why Toyota won't believe them annoying. They have an 8 year unlimited mile warranty on the issue, they've reworked the engine to guard against it in the future. What more can they do?

You have to take some responsibility as an owner too. Keep your service reciepts. If you do your own changes, keep a logbook and keep reciepts for the oil. Use synthetic oil. Do everything YOU can do to help guard against the sludge. If you change your oil every 5k miles and especially if you use synthetic you'll have no sludge! We have PROOF in the form of mburnickas' pictures and oil tests and he drains every 10-12k miles! If you use synthetic and drain every 5k, you'll have no problems. I use synthetic and drain every 5k, no sludge. And apparently, according to you it makes no difference that I have an 03.

So, you can whine and play conspiracy theory, or you can do what you can do to protect your car from the problem. My issue is with those who choose to whine.

[TunedRX300]

What are my hidden motives and agenda? LOL. You take yourself too seriously, its a car this is not a government conspiracy to rob you of $1,000 of resale value maybe someday. I don't work for Toyota, I don't care what you do. I do however think this issue is way overblown and constantly reading the whining from people like you who can't be bothered to keep records and complaining why Toyota won't believe them annoying. They have an 8 year unlimited mile warranty on the issue, they've reworked the engine to guard against it in the future. What more can they do?

You have to take some responsibility as an owner too. Keep your service reciepts. If you do your own changes, keep a logbook and keep reciepts for the oil. Use synthetic oil. Do everything YOU can do to help guard against the sludge. If you change your oil every 5k miles and especially if you use synthetic you'll have no sludge! We have PROOF in the form of mburnickas' pictures and oil tests and he drains every 10-12k miles! If you use synthetic and drain every 5k, you'll have no problems. I use synthetic and drain every 5k, no sludge. And apparently, according to you it makes no difference that I have an 03.

I never said owners have no responsibility on following maintenance schedule, the fact is that many did follow the maintenace schedule and still have sludge developed. UOAs showed dino oil has no life left long before 5K is reached. Lexus never conditioned any warranties, powtrain or sludge, on usage of synthetic oil. The following opinion posted by you is wrong.

I think the data we've seen shows that the chance of sludging can be all but eliminated if you drain the oil at least every 5k and even better use synthetic oil

mburnickas is using LC20 as a sacrificial additives to prolong host oil (synthetic Amsoil) life. The procedure calls for 1-2 oz of LC20 on every 1K of oil miles. http://www.lubecontrol.com/lube.htm

At 10K, he has done 10 mini oil changes already. That is not proof, that is mburnickas trying to achieve his OCI goal by going way beyond what a normal Toyota oil change does.

Interestingly, I asked for him to provide one UOA that showed dino oil that get past 5K and I am still waiting for mburnickas to come back with that data.

If you really want to see actual cases of owners that have engine sludged despite religiously following Lexus' schedule, why not make this thread a sticky? Similiar to the tranny thread, as time goes on, many owners post their tranny failed prematurely even though Toyota never admit there is any tranny design issue.

Also I do not believe you are affiliated with Toyota, I made the comments because others do. I respected you when you switched position on the tranny issue after doing your research. I just urge you to do the same with sludge issue. Time will tell and truth will eventually comes out.

In addition, a Toyota spoke person did blame the owners see below comments. I think you gave Toyota too much benefit of doubts.

See Times report copy and pasted by deepsquat in this thread

http://us.lexusownersclub.com/forums/index...33245&st=30

direct quotes from the report

Throughout the campaign, Toyota has insisted that the problem is caused by customers' failure to change crankcase oil at least every 7,500 miles, as recommended in their owners' manuals.

But some owners insist that they have routinely changed oil and that the sludge must be forming because of some defect in the engine design. The problems have occurred in the company's 3.0-liter V-6 and 2.2-liter four-cylinder engines.

Michels, spokesman for Toyota's North American headquarters in Torrance, said the company has not altered its assessment that the failures are caused by owner abuse. Michels said the problem is limited to the U.S. and Canada, though the engines are used worldwide. Although it took some prodding to get it started, the Toyota campaign is an example of the over-the-top customer satisfaction effort that makes many owners loyal.