Rotors And Brake Pad

[Grumpa72]

Every once and a while in other car forums I get on my soap box cocerning rotors and pads. I am continually amazed that, when talking with friends and neighbors, I hear that they are getting pads changed (this part is ok) and the rotors turned or cut. Many of my gearhead friends have original calipers on their cars, many of which have well in excess of 100,000 miles on them. For example, my wife's 93 Acura Legend, just turned 110,000 and the rotors barely have a ridge on them. You can bet that there certainly are very minor grooves in them but I am not talking serious gouging or grooves. These rotors have never been cut and are original to the car. Same thing with my Dodge Caravan - 113000 miles and original rotors. This becomes a viscious circle since cutting rotors takes away metal from them and this reduced mass causes them to be more susceptible to warping due to heat buildup - thereby creating the need for new rotors. As many of you know, the higher the mass of a caliper, the greater the ability to get rid of heat, reducing warpage.

Same discussion with pads when folks go with upgraded pad, including ceramic and semi-metallic. OEM pads are a decent compromise between wear, noise, and stopping ability. Now, I don't know about you, but I am way past being a street racer, especially in the boxy RX. This is my wife's car as was the Legend. Her idea of "hanging it on the edge" was to go five mph over the limit. I chuckle when I hear of folks going with upgraded rotors and pads, both on this forum and others. Can you say ka-ching? When my son was a teenager and wanted to upgrade his Honda Civic to be a road racer (his words - mine were less kind, calling it a ricer) he wanted upgraded slotted rotors and pads. The downside was the pads had to be hot to be any more effective than OEM pads. For a normal (?) panic traffic stop, these upgraded pads actually stopped more poorly than if he still had OEM pads. The final nail in the upgraded pad coffin is that, since they are harder, they wear the pad much more than normal. Combine that with a dealer who wants the extra bucks for a rotor turn and you get to replace your rotors more often.

The final comment is a question. Why do most shops and dealers call turning a rotor on a lathe and removing material "resurfacing"? Doesn't that imply that material is added? Just a thought.

Ok, off the soap box and back to work. Thanks for listening.

Gary

[lenore]

Your too funny, and yes I agree after working on Brakes for 40 years I have had the same success you have by leaving the rotors alone, except when you get shimmy. Then I replace the rotor. Funny they seem to work fine, last a long time, and don't rot your teeth.

[RX in NC]

Same here. I simply watch the condition of our pads and rotors and inevitably wind up just replacing pads at anywhere from 60,000 miles to close to 90,000 miles on our vehicles that do a lot of highway driving. I've found the RX300 semi-metallic OEM pads to be good quality and long lasting. No need to upgrade to ceramic from a performance standpoint - after all, the RX300 certainly isn't a hot rod. In fact, it usually can't get out of its own way....

[Grumpa72]

Well, I will say that if you get a warped rotor, resulting in a shimmy, you are probably going to have to change out that rotor. I drove a Ford Fiesta for five years and NOTHING would keep the rotors from warping after about 30000 miles. New rotor time, unless of course you wanted to sit there and feel the pulsing in the brake pedal.

Gary

[monarch]

Both my high mileage Toyotas still have their factory original rotors: my '92 pickup with 467,800 miles and my '89 Corolla with 246,100 miles. I never encountered rotor warping probably because I was always careful to avoid abrupt stops, I used the lower gears to assist braking on mountain downgrades and I used genuine Toyota replacement pads. My '91 LS400 is still a youngster at "only" 105,000 miles

[hatrost]

well my rotors are warped at 60K, driving me crazy...

so I need new rotors, I have a friend who loves his upscale rotors and pads. (drill, slotted, and dipped) I am also tired of the break dust and I know ceramic pads keep that down to a minimum...

[mikey00]

well my rotors are warped at 60K, driving me crazy...

so I need new rotors, I have a friend who loves his upscale rotors and pads. (drill, slotted, and dipped) I am also tired of the break dust and I know ceramic pads keep that down to a minimum...

The stock rotors and pads are one of the better features of the RX. They have good stopping power and I consider them as safe as anything out there. I rarely hear of the rotors warping. If yours warped, it is most likely due to something like stuck piston, or super heating the rotors then running through cool water, etc.

I replaced my pads with stock pads at around 70k and will do the same around 140k. Hopefully, I will never have to touch the rotors. It also helps to realize you are driving a Camry station wagon not a Ferrari.

Edited January 19, 2006 by mikey00

[TunedRX300]

well my rotors are warped at 60K, driving me crazy...

so I need new rotors, I have a friend who loves his upscale rotors and pads. (drill, slotted, and dipped) I am also tired of the break dust and I know ceramic pads keep that down to a minimum...

The stock rotors and pads are one of the better features of the RX. They have good stopping power and I consider them as safe as anything out there. I rarely hear of the rotors warping. If yours warped, it is most likely due to something like stuck piston, or super heating the rotors then running through cool water, etc.

I replaced my pads with stock pads at around 70k and will do the same around 140k. Hopefully, I will never have to touch the rotors. It also helps to realize you are driving a Camry station wagon not a Ferrari.

Brake is a safety item. No compact car owner will say air bags are not necessary because he doesn't drive a luxury car. Same idea applies here, when a SUV owner needs to stop to avoid an accident, I don't think he will think "hey I have a SUV, if I hit that truck in front, it is OK". The fact is heavier cars with higher payload stop longer for the same brake setup. If one says a 4 ton SUV with brake borrowed from a family sedan is sufficient, well, that is the person I want to avoid on the road.

[mikey00]

well my rotors are warped at 60K, driving me crazy...

so I need new rotors, I have a friend who loves his upscale rotors and pads. (drill, slotted, and dipped) I am also tired of the break dust and I know ceramic pads keep that down to a minimum...

The stock rotors and pads are one of the better features of the RX. They have good stopping power and I consider them as safe as anything out there. I rarely hear of the rotors warping. If yours warped, it is most likely due to something like stuck piston, or super heating the rotors then running through cool water, etc.

I replaced my pads with stock pads at around 70k and will do the same around 140k. Hopefully, I will never have to touch the rotors. It also helps to realize you are driving a Camry station wagon not a Ferrari.

Brake is a safety item. No compact car owner will say air bags are not necessary because he doesn't drive a luxury car. Same idea applies here, when a SUV owner needs to stop to avoid an accident, I don't think he will think "hey I have a SUV, if I hit that truck in front, it is OK". The fact is heavier cars with higher payload stop longer for the same brake setup. If one says a 4 ton SUV with brake borrowed from a family sedan is sufficient, well, that is the person I want to avoid on the road.

I agree. What's even worse is the guy who changes to aftermarket pads and rotors and now thinks he has a Ferrari. Of course I really don't know the stopping distance of a Ferrari but I am just assuming it is good.

[Grumpa72]

Brake is a safety item. No compact car owner will say air bags are not necessary because he doesn't drive a luxury car. Same idea applies here, when a SUV owner needs to stop to avoid an accident, I don't think he will think "hey I have a SUV, if I hit that truck in front, it is OK". The fact is heavier cars with higher payload stop longer for the same brake setup. If one says a 4 ton SUV with brake borrowed from a family sedan is sufficient, well, that is the person I want to avoid on the road.

I absolutely agree with most of the comments here. If your rotors warp for whatever reason, resurface them. If pads need early replacement, do so. The one thing I don't know about is whether or not these rotors and calipers came from a sedan. Is that true? As we all know, the brakes are typically sized to the car and its "mission". One won't see dinky calipers and rotors on a turbo Porsche for the same reason you don't see them on an SUV. I am quite happy with the braking system of my '05 RX. Feels good, no real need to panic brake since we drive this car less aggresively than our previous car. Well, at least I drive it that way. My wife has always driven like a granny. ;)

Gary

[mikey00]

Brake is a safety item. No compact car owner will say air bags are not necessary because he doesn't drive a luxury car. Same idea applies here, when a SUV owner needs to stop to avoid an accident, I don't think he will think "hey I have a SUV, if I hit that truck in front, it is OK". The fact is heavier cars with higher payload stop longer for the same brake setup. If one says a 4 ton SUV with brake borrowed from a family sedan is sufficient, well, that is the person I want to avoid on the road.

I absolutely agree with most of the comments here. If your rotors warp for whatever reason, resurface them. If pads need early replacement, do so. The one thing I don't know about is whether or not these rotors and calipers came from a sedan. Is that true? As we all know, the brakes are typically sized to the car and its "mission". One won't see dinky calipers and rotors on a turbo Porsche for the same reason you don't see them on an SUV. I am quite happy with the braking system of my '05 RX. Feels good, no real need to panic brake since we drive this car less aggresively than our previous car. Well, at least I drive it that way. My wife has always driven like a granny. ;)

Gary

I am not sure either if the rotors and calipers are the same ones from the Camry. I would bet they are sized for the task at hand. But even if they are, the test reports on SUV stopping distance indicate the RX is up there with the best of them.

[TunedRX300]

Gary,

You are right, speed and mass of the car determines how big the brake should be designed. For a given speed, heavier car stop longer for the same brakesetup; similiarly, for a given mass, a car with higher speed stops longer.

The performance of any braking system is governed by science and data, not by subjective feeling "SUV is not a Ferrari" or branding "OEM is always better".

Take a look of brakes Toyota designed for LS and RX side by side.

Car LS400 (94-00) RX300 AWD (99-03)

Weight 3889lbs 3,924lbs

Front Rotor Diameter 315mm 295.8mm

# of piston per front caliper 4 1

Piston Clamp Both Sides of Rotor Yes No

Rear Rotor Diameter 306.8mm 287.8mm

Rear Rotor Vented Yes No

Brake are larger and better for Lexus LS400 over RX SUV: 1) rotor and clamping force are much better both in front and rear 2) rear rotor has better cooling capacity 3) both front and rear rotors have more mass to store heat and resist to warping. This is all for a lighter conservative sedan over a heavier "Sport" Utility Vehicle. If Lexus believe LS's brake is properly design, then RX is severely undersized

[monarch]

What's even worse is the guy who changes to aftermarket pads and rotors and now thinks he has a Ferrari. Of course I really don't know the stopping distance of a Ferrari but I am just assuming it is good.

For decades we have been hearing these claims: "I need a monster V8 to accelerate my way out of dangerous traffic situations" and "I need Brembo pads and rotors to avoid dangerous traffic situations" My guess is commercial bus drivers and truckers have better accident avoidance driving records than the rest of society even though the vehicles they drive can't accelerate or stop very fast. And my guess is the owners of cars that can accelerate and stop the fastest have the worst accident avoidance records.

[riwyle]

Gary,

You are right, speed and mass of the car determines how big the brake should be designed. For a given speed, heavier car stop longer for the same brakesetup; similiarly, for a given mass, a car with higher speed stops longer.

The performance of any braking system is governed by science and data, not by subjective feeling "SUV is not a Ferrari" or branding "OEM is always better".

Take a look of brake of first generation LS and RX side by side.

Car LS400 (94-00) RX300 AWD (01)

Weight 2889lbs 3,924lbs

Front Rotor Diameter 315mm 295.8mm

# of piston per front caliper 4 1

Piston Clamp Both Sides of Rotor Yes No

Rear Rotor Diameter 306.8mm 287.8mm

Rear Rotor Vented Yes No

Brake are larger and better for Lexus LS400 over RX SUV: 1) rotor and clamping force are much better both in front and rear 2) rear rotor has better cooling capacity 3) both front and rear rotors have better mass to store heat and resist to warping. This is all for a lighter conservative sedan over a heavier "Sport" Utility Vehicle. If Lexus believe LS's brake is properly design, then RX is severely undersized

How do the published stopping distances compare between these two vehicles? I believe that would be the bottom line, and not the dimensions.

[TunedRX300]

There are two ways to evaluate braking performance. One is by physical principles, StopTech has an excellent document on how each of these brake components affects braking.

http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/The%20Ph...g%20Systems.pdf

Kinetic Energy of a moving car = 0.5*mass*velocity_squared

To offset higher energy generated by higher velocity or heavier car. One must increase rotor size, increase clamping area, or having more rigid caliper/line in order to keep braking distance the same. This is not someone's opinion, "guess", or fancy branding, just pure physical laws. These principles are the main reason automakers give sport cars bigger brakes AND design bigger brakes for heavier vehicles.

The second way is exactly what you described, drive test data side by side with same setup, condition and driver. I have provided drive test data in another thread, mikey00 disbuted the result because one can not compare tests results with different setups. He is partially right, you can not find a RX test result with the same test configuration as the LS. But if you run enough tests, even with different setups, the trend should be clear: bigger brake stop better for a given mass and speed. The trend also agree with physical factors determine stopping distance apply to all cars on the road: rotor size, piston area, clamping force.

[tmastres]

Just for comparison sake the published stats seem to be these:

2000 RX 300 60-0 stop distance 134 ft

1999 LS 400 60-0 stop distance 118 ft

Definitely better , especially if you're in the last 15 ft !!

Also the LS listed weight is 3800 lbs not 2800

[TunedRX300]

Just for comparison sake the published stats seem to be these:

2000 RX 300 60-0 stop distance 134 ft

1999 LS 400 60-0 stop distance 118 ft

Definitely better , especially if you're in the last 15 ft !!

Also the LS listed weight is 3800 lbs not 2800

My typo, just made correction to 3889lbs. Thanks

[mikey00]

Take a look at the Consumer Reports test results:

2004 LS430 60-0 stopping distance dry 134' wet 152'

2004 RX330 60-0 stopping distance dry 134' wet 148'

Not much difference, unless, as someone already said, you are in that last 4' on a wet road.

[monarch]

Yes the RX330 SUV compares favorably even with some sporty cars in Consumer Reports tests:

2004 Lexus RX330 60-0 stopping distance dry 134' wet 148'

2006 Lexus GS300 60-0 stopping distance dry 133' wet 147'

2006 Chevy Corvette 60-0 stopping distance dry 126' wet 145'

2005 Ford Mustang V8 60-0 stopping distance dry 131' wet 144'

2003 Pontiac GTO V8 60-0 stopping distance dry 143' wet 152'

[TunedRX300]

Yes the RX330 SUV compares favorably even with some sporty cars in Consumer Reports tests:

2004 Lexus RX330 60-0 stopping distance dry 134' wet 148'

2006 Lexus GS300 60-0 stopping distance dry 133' wet 147'

2006 Chevy Corvette 60-0 stopping distance dry 126' wet 145'

2005 Ford Mustang V8 60-0 stopping distance dry 131' wet 144'

2003 Pontiac GTO V8 60-0 stopping distance dry 143' wet 152'

Are test setups the same? How can the test condition (driver, surface, car condition, temperature) stays the same across three year span?

[monarch]

Are test setups the same? How can the test condition (driver, surface, car condition, temperature) stays the same across three year span?

Nothing stays exactly the same, of course, but in recent years the Toyota SUV's based on the Camry chassis platform have stopped very nearly as well as the Toyota cars based on the Camry platform.

Examples of Toyota cars based on the Camry platform:

2005 Camry 4 cylinder 60-0 stopping distance dry 147' wet 154'

2005 Camry Solara V6 60-0 stopping distance dry 130' wet 138'

2002 Camry XLE V6 60-0 stopping distance dry 128' wet 138'

2004 Lexus ES330 V6 60-0 stopping distance dry 132' wet 142'

AVERAGE: 60-0 stopping distance dry 134' wet 143'

Examples of Toyota SUV's based on the Camry platform:

2004 Lexus RX330 60-0 stopping distance dry 134' wet 148'

2006 Lexus RX400h 60-0 stopping distance dry 146' wet 152'

2005 Toyota Highlander V6 60-0 stopping distance dry 137' wet 152'

2006 Toyota Highlander Hybrid 60-0 stopping distance dry 148' wet 158'

2005 Toyota Sienna minivan 60-0 stopping distance dry 142' wet 150'

AVERAGE: 60-0 stopping distance dry 141' wet 152'

CONCLUSION: Toyota SUV's and Vans based on the Camry platform weigh about 20% more than Toyota cars based on the Camry platform, but take only a 5% longer distance, on average, to stop from 60 MPH on a dry surface and 6% longer on average on a wet surface.

[mikey00]

Yes the RX330 SUV compares favorably even with some sporty cars in Consumer Reports tests:

2004 Lexus RX330 60-0 stopping distance dry 134' wet 148'

2006 Lexus GS300 60-0 stopping distance dry 133' wet 147'

2006 Chevy Corvette 60-0 stopping distance dry 126' wet 145'

2005 Ford Mustang V8 60-0 stopping distance dry 131' wet 144'

2003 Pontiac GTO V8 60-0 stopping distance dry 143' wet 152'

Are test setups the same? How can the test condition (driver, surface, car condition, temperature) stays the same across three year span?

TunedRx300: When did consistency become important to you? Here is a link to a similar discussion last month where you tried to compare stopping distance from a Motor Trend test to an Edmunds test. 2 different groups, 2 different tracks, 2 different times, plus whatever else. At least Consumers Reports supplies some level of consistency.

http://us.lexusownersclub.com/forums/index...opic=26143&st=0

Are test setups the same? How can the test condition (driver, surface, car condition, temperature) stays the same across three year span?

Nothing stays exactly the same, of course, but in recent years the Toyota SUV's based on the Camry chassis platform have stopped very nearly as well as the Toyota cars based on the Camry platform.

Examples of Toyota cars based on the Camry platform:

2005 Camry 4 cylinder 60-0 stopping distance dry 147' wet 154'

2005 Camry Solara V6 60-0 stopping distance dry 130' wet 138'

2002 Camry XLE V6 60-0 stopping distance dry 128' wet 138'

2004 Lexus ES330 V6 60-0 stopping distance dry 132' wet 142'

AVERAGE: 60-0 stopping distance dry 134' wet 143'

Examples of Toyota SUV's based on the Camry platform:

2004 Lexus RX330 60-0 stopping distance dry 134' wet 148'

2006 Lexus RX400h 60-0 stopping distance dry 146' wet 152'

2005 Toyota Highlander V6 60-0 stopping distance dry 137' wet 152'

2006 Toyota Highlander Hybrid 60-0 stopping distance dry 148' wet 158'

2005 Toyota Sienna minivan 60-0 stopping distance dry 142' wet 150'

AVERAGE: 60-0 stopping distance dry 141' wet 152'

CONCLUSION: Toyota SUV's and Vans based on the Camry platform weigh about 20% more than Toyota cars based on the Camry platform, but take only a 5% longer distance, on average, to stop from 60 MPH on a dry surface and 6% longer on average on a wet surface.

Just an observation: The RX has the best stopping distance in the SUV group. Hybrids and minivan seem to skew the number. If you just use the RX stopping distance, which seems to be fairly consistent from many different sources, it is equal to the cars in dry stopping distance.

Edited January 21, 2006 by mikey00

[TunedRX300]

TunedRx300: When did consistency become important to you? Here is a link to a similar discussion last month where you tried to compare stopping distance from a Motor Trend test to an Edmunds test. 2 different groups, 2 different tracks, 2 different times, plus whatever else. At least Consumers Reports supplies some level of consistency.

Did you read my posting in THIS thread?

The second way is exactly what you described, drive test data side by side with same setup, condition and driver. I have provided drive test data in another thread, mikey00 disbuted the result because one can not compare tests results with different setups. He is partially right, you can not find a RX test result with the same test configuration as the LS. But if you run enough tests, even with different setups, the trend should be clear: bigger brake stop better for a given mass and speed. The trend also agree with physical factors determine stopping distance apply to all cars on the road: rotor size, piston area, clamping force.

Also when did consistency become NOT important to you?

Take a look at the Consumer Reports test results:

2004 LS430 60-0 stopping distance dry 134' wet 152'

2004 RX330 60-0 stopping distance dry 134' wet 148'

Not much difference, unless, as someone already said, you are in that last 4' on a wet road.

Are these done by the same driver, same track, same time?

Even with test variables, the TREND is clear, RX SUV stop longer than a Lexus sedan. If the sedan's stopping distance is believed safe and sufficient, the SUV is not.

[mikey00]

TunedRx300: When did consistency become important to you? Here is a link to a similar discussion last month where you tried to compare stopping distance from a Motor Trend test to an Edmunds test. 2 different groups, 2 different tracks, 2 different times, plus whatever else. At least Consumers Reports supplies some level of consistency.

Did you read my posting in THIS thread?

The second way is exactly what you described, drive test data side by side with same setup, condition and driver. I have provided drive test data in another thread, mikey00 disbuted the result because one can not compare tests results with different setups. He is partially right, you can not find a RX test result with the same test configuration as the LS. But if you run enough tests, even with different setups, the trend should be clear: bigger brake stop better for a given mass and speed. The trend also agree with physical factors determine stopping distance apply to all cars on the road: rotor size, piston area, clamping force.

Also when did consistency become NOT important to you?

Take a look at the Consumer Reports test results:

2004 LS430 60-0 stopping distance dry 134' wet 152'

2004 RX330 60-0 stopping distance dry 134' wet 148'

Not much difference, unless, as someone already said, you are in that last 4' on a wet road.

Are these done by the same driver, same track, same time?

Even with test variables, the TREND is clear, RX SUV stop longer than a Lexus sedan. If the sedan's stopping distance is believed safe and sufficient, the SUV is not.

The test data above from Consumer Reports indicates that the RX stops the same as the LS on a dry road and actually better on a wet road. I consider this safe and sufficient and that is one of the reasons I have an RX. If you dispute the data and do not consider the RX safe and succicient, why in the world would you be driving one.

[monarch]

I don't worry about being rear ended and killed by SUV's simply because they take 5 more feet to stop from 60 mph. I worry about being rear ended and killed by 2 Fast, 2 Furious small cars like these http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y189/mastertech/br.jpg with their aftermarket brakes, suspensiions, intakes and exhausts.