Air Suspension Good!no?

[SW03ES]

anyone who says you can't tell the diff has never ridden in a car with air suspension.

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Obviously not because I've driven probably 15 LS400s, most without air suspension and a few with it and you can tell a little difference, but its really not better its just different. Remember I drove identical generation LS400s back to back, one with air suspension, one without, on an identical test loop and didn't prefer one over the other. I've also driven LS430s with and without the air suspension and still really can't tell the difference.

You can't tell me I'm wrong because I'm not, you can disagree with me and have an alternate opinion to mine and thats fine, but quit telling me I don't know what I'm talking about or have never driven the car with the air suspension because thats not true. Remember, my father owned a 98 LS400 with air suspension for 160k miles that I drove very regularly and I looked at DOZENS of LS400s two years ago before I bought my ES. I know this car.

And if you think you can safely replace just one strut, you are totally wrong. Its not a ride issue its a safety issue, the car will not behave properly in an emergency situation if you only replace one strut on an axle. Its like only replacing one tire when the other one on that axle is nearly bald. You absolutely must replace both.

As for "why worry about 10 years down the road" I'm not talking about worrying about 10 years down the road. I'm simply suggesting when choosing between two 10-16 year old LS400s one with air suspension and one not, it might be best not to choose the one with the system that ABSOLUTELY WILL FAIL before too long unless its been replaced recently over one without that system.

I don't know many people who can/would be pleased to spend $4000 for a car and then turn around and find it needs $2000-$3000 worth of struts a month later.

[jainla]

Just got back from Taste of Lexus. If you ever have the chance to go to these events I highly recommend it (check it out on www.tasteoflexus.com).

While the event was geared more towards the new IS and GS they had 2 LS 430s, one with Air Suspension and one with the standard coil springs (no sport suspension unfortunately). They set up a very nice course with a bunch of turns, a small slalom, and a couple hard sweeping turns.

At TOL from what I could tell the 2 cars had identical tire and wheel sizes, I didn't check the actual tires themselves. I drove the regular car first: around the test loop the coil sprung car held the road well, and over their little NVH section the car was quiet and well damped. In hard turns the car rolled a little but it didn't feel like the door handles were dragging on the ground and the car exhibited good grip. Having just driven an GS I remember being impressed at the ride/handling balance; especially for such a large car.

Right before I left I drove the other LS (the Air car), and with the suspension in sport mode the car definitely was better damped and felt tighter. It just felt less 'springy.' Body roll was well controlled (noticeably better than the coil sprung car) and the car felt tighter and substantially less squirmy in tough transients and the slalom. Dive and squat were also noticeably improved. Being that I had driven the course a couple times since the first LS in other cars, I was probably pushing this LS harder and driving faster than the first one. The NVH test revealed that the ride over rough surfaces was as good if not better than the coil sprung car, but not overwhelmingly different.

That said, I agree with SW03ES that in everyday driving I haven't been able to discern much difference between the two (I freely admit I am not an overly agressive driver ). I drove several LS430s when I was shopping for my car and honestly don't remember enough of a difference that would choose me to seek one out over another. From what i remember the Air Ride cars rode a little firmer and were less floaty than the non Air Ride cars, but with no noticeable loss of smoothness or NVH deterioration; and you can select sport mode if you want the ride to be harder. This is interesting because most other air-ride cars I have ridden in have a much softer ride than your typical coil sprung car.

I am finding in my day to day driving that my car (with the Air Ride) is firmer than I expected, and I actually drove the same route I drove in one of the non Air Ride cars to test this out. I suspect my Toyo TPT Proxies on the 17" wheels may also have something to do with that. But (at least for me) the Air Ride was not a deal breaker; if I had found a Sport Suspension car with the Custom Lux package I would have happily driven off into the sunset. :D

But SW03ES has a good point...especially if you are considering a car that is more than 5-6 years old the prospect of soon spending $2000 (if not more) to repair this system when it quits is sobering, to say the least. In a 10 year old car this is a substantial percentage of your car's value; and there may be other suspension bits that need to be replaced at the same time so financially it might not make sense. Also (especially since the first gen air ride) coil sprung suspensions have been improving; newer shocks/upgraded springs might offer some of the air ride improvements without the increased mechanical complexity. In this scenario I probably would not pick the Air Ride over the coil sprung car unless I had money to burn.

My little experiment aside, the benefits of Air Suspension are demonstrable if not overwhelmingly compelling. These days many more manufacturers are offering cars with comparable systems (Mercedes, Jaguar, Audi, VW, Rolls Royce to name a few) so they must believe that consumers want this technology or that it offers a tangible benefit.

IMHO it just comes down to a personal choice: if you frequently drive hard, have specific driving conditions (frequent heavy loads, many passengers) or have crappy roads where you live than the adjustibility and active control of the system could offer a tangible benefit that makes it worth the extra cost and maintenance. The system does improve handling, but maybe not enough that you would notice unless you drove the 2 back to back like I did. But from what I saw today it's not a 'night and day' difference like some others have reported; and if you have good roads, drive conservatively, and don't want or need the load leveling than the Air Ride will offer you no discernable benefit. At least you still have a choice in the LS, many other cars in this class come with Air Ride as standard.

The dealer that did the pre-sale inspection on the car claims that the newest Air Struts can last up to 150k miles. With so many more systems on the market now than just 5 years ago replacing or reconditioning air springs will become an increasingly popular business...hopefully some more outfits will start doing it and we'll see more choice, price competition and better service among the vendors involved.

[dfkd]

I've just always found that the cars outfitted with TEMS give a smarter ride...which is the point of the system. I dont think they are about ride quality...nothing beats a lex in that area anyway.

When it comes to different driving styles, it's like having the luxo 1970 Caddy feel and a sport suspension feel all in one. When you're cruising, is soft and smoothe. When the corners come it will adapt and make the car respond like a smaller car. Best of both worlds.

Is it worth it?...depends on your pocket book i guess. I just feel safer and more confident with it. Lowers the center of gravity at high speeds, lifts the car on rough roads, eases the body roll and pitch...kills the power assist at will too. It's just smarter. The car changes as your need for excitement does.

The airbag doesnt make a difference either until you're about to die. :o

[Lexuses71]

Can someone tell me, what year LS400's have the air suspension? Or was it an option on all years?

[dfkd]

Always an option

[jainla]

Always an option on the LS400. The cars were sold with escalating options packages, with the Air Suspension being at the top of the heap (i.e. you had to buy every other package before you got the Air Ride).

Apparently post '98 cars with Air Suspension are rather rare. Starting in '01 the AVS was part of a the Ultra Luxury Selection Package (which is basically the same as requiring every other option package but cost alot more). Although you can't find it on the Lexus site the package is still available for '06 (and beyond presumably).

I think it's also available on the later model GX and RX SUVs. As far as I can tell no other toyota or Lexus sedans sold in the US offer it as an option.

[SW03ES]

The AVS suspension is different from the air suspension. The AVS is availiable on the ES as well. The LS430 UL is still the air suspension.

[Gumart1]

I just wanted to share some information after comparing the merits and downfalls of keeping vs. converting the air ride. Again, it will all come down to personal taste and finances, but am leaning towards converting my air and calling it a day.

I am seeing an increase in number of posts from owners with air ride problems. The weather is getting colder and perhaps contraction is causing bigger cracks and more leaks to apprear. That plus a 15 year old car isn't getting any younger.

Also, at this point most people's failures are limited to the strut. But with actuators, compressor, air lines, height sensors, etc. the possibilty increases with age that more problems will occur. Nothing lasts forever.

I have talked to a member who has recently purchased from Arnott. This member's experience, coupled with some comments from previous members, makes me want to stay away. Sure, they are alot cheaper than the Dealer. Sometimes you may get a perfect replacement without issue. But if you need support, they simply fall short. I spoke to a "tech" and she was less than knowledgeable. Didn't answer my questions with believeability. I also couldn't get any e-mail responses from the tech support e-mail. The member who purchased has dealt with an angry supervisor. I truly wonder what I'd be up against if I ever had a claim for my "lifetime warranty".

This morning I decided to call Strutmasters. There was no holding time, and I spoke to a very educated rep named Mike White. He knows the Lexus ride and he had answers about the conversion process and ride quality and such. He did not pressure me in any way. I felt comfortable in what he had to say. With my high mileage older LS, I think this will be the smartest option for me. I was a true believer in air ride and still am. But the reality is that I will probably not be owning my car for more than 3-5 more years and it is not driven enough miles a year for me to stick with air.

The only difference I am not happy about is giving up the cushy ride. The KYB struts that Strutmasters uses are harder than the OEM KYB's in the LS. But supposedly what I am giving up in ride will be gained in handling, especially with cornering. I'm really feeling guilty about changing an original LS. I've now driven air ride and OEM springs but never a conversion kit LS, but I think it has to be done. Wish me luck

[kwkarth]

I noticed the Ultra Lux package is gone for '06. I wonder what that deal is?

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I just bought an '06 LS430 with the custom lux pkg. The ultra lux pkg was available acording to the salesman. I LOVE this car!

[frodo1028]

As you can tell, I am new to the Lexus world. I just bought a used 1992 LS400 in excellant condition and am new to the forum. One thing I notice about the car is that the rear shocks are really soft and bottom out in bumps on the freeway. I have all the service records and see that the front struts were replaced 2 years ago. No mention of work done to the rear struts. How do I tell if the car has the air suspension? Also, if it doesn't, how much does it cost to R&R the rear struts?

Thanks

LOL, everyone's entitled to their opinion and you've got to respect that my opinion is my opinion.

As for me being cheap, or not being willing to put the cost in for the car. I bought a new Lexus with every option lol (except obviously the air suspension), I don't see how you can call me cheap because I wouldn't buy a 16 year old LS400 with the air strut option over a 16 year old LS400 without the air strut option. I don't think its worth fixing something like that on a car that old.

Its not just $400 either, the struts have to at least be replaced in pairs and you're more than likely to need to replace all 4. If I had a 1990 LS400 and it needed $1600 worth of air struts it would be replaced and not repaired no. I would sell it, and take the $1600 and buy a newer one instead, one without the air shocks.

As a matter of fact I plan on replacing my ES with a new LS430 sometime next fall and I refuse to buy an Ultra Luxury model. Why? You guessed it, it has the air suspension. If I keep it for 10 years and it fails its gonna cost me at least $2000. Why bother when I can buy a normally suspended one that rides just as good and the struts will never fail in that way? If I were leasing one for 3 years and getting rid of it that'd be one thing.

I mean if its something really useful, like a nav system, then I'll risk the repair cost. But why risk it when the standardly suspended car is heralded as the finest riding sedan ever built?

Thats my opinion, its not yours and thats fine.

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[highlander]

it has air suspension if next to the shift knob there is a high normal button....

and if you look at the shocks and you see no springs....

i have them both... the difference is quite nice and very noticeable.. i like it....

[Gumart1]

Highlander, how do you have both? Do you mean you have another LS without the air ride? I only see the 98 in your profile. I may be about to convert to standard but I can't find anyone locally who has done this to actually test drive their car. I can only go by those on the forum who have switched, and I am afraid to lose my comfy ride - The conversion will make the ride even harsher than the Lexus shock/spring combo and that is why I am hesitating.

[frodo1028]

Thanks for the info!

it has air suspension if next to the shift knob there is a high normal button....

and if you look at the shocks and you see no springs....

i have them both... the difference is quite nice and very noticeable.. i like it....

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[SW03ES]

Even harsher than the Lexus shock/spring combo.

Thats like saying that combo is harsh in the first place, which it isn't. Remember the basic suspension car is heralded as one of the smoothest sedans ever made. Thats the model without the air suspension.

[Gumart1]

I definitely didn't mean to imply that the ride of a Lexus LS400 is harsh in any way. It's the best ride of any car I've driver over the last 20 years. I'm actually gearing my post to my impending decision on converting to the only kit available right now for air shocks, which use their own springs and KYB struts. Unfortunately no one locally I know has converted, and therefore I'd be altering my ride and don't know what to expect. Even the Salersperson from Strutmasters compares the ride to his '96 Maxima. That scares me a bit! I certainly am not happy about altering the original smoothness.

For awhile I supported the idea of maintaining the air ride, but with my advanced mileage and age of the struts it is financially smarter to convert, so I guess I will have to take the leap.

[nc211]

Gun, is it possible to just order the mounting hardware for the conversion, and order the springs and struts oem? Will they match up correctly if you blend the two w/o having to alter the mounting hardware? My dealer told me once on a road test "to figure out the damn wobble, 12 months ago" about those who come in w/ bad air shocks that they usually will convert it to oem struts and springs. So I would figure if the dealership recommended it, then it's just a matter of what parts are needed, and then we go shopping online for the deep discounts. Maybe get you $200-$300 inside of the overall cost to strutmaster? I'd be a little concerned too if someone told me my LS400 would now ride like a 96 Maxima. Not to knock the Maxima or anything....but it ain't no LS400, in any comparision. And coming from the air strut set up, you know that there will be a higher probability that you won't be happy with the aftermarket set up and always wonder what the oem set up would have felt like. I'll hunt for parts for ya' if you like ;)

[92ls forhundo]

speaking of which does anyone know what the model number or whatever of oem kybs are called? I always seem to find gr-2's and know that they are not the original ones. all my shocks are original and need replacing however i believe that i can find oem's cheaper than dealership prices. Thanks in advance.

[Gumart1]

NC - Wow, thanks man! You must be going crazy with all that free time without your LS on your hands! What will you do when it's all fixed up! I have never heard of the Dealer having the parts for conversion but that would be amazing if they did. At this point the only two companies that I can find for conversion kits are Strutmasters and SuncoreIndustries. Suncore's website was sorely lacking and I never got more than 1 lame e-mail response. It would make sense that by installing the hardware I could use OEM parts. Just a little more work to compress the spring onto the strut vs. a fully assembled conversion kit. Pretty sure Strutmasters uses the KYB GR-2 which would ride slightly firmer than OEM but I have no info on the maker of the springs. I'd gladly pay more than $745 (Strutmasters) if I could convert to the same with OEM parts.

[nc211]

Hahaha, yeah I'm starting to miss my LS a bit. I've got an 05 ES to drive, and it's nice...very nice. But I want my V8 back and that heavy spongy feel. But I'll wait for however long it takes so I don't have to ask anymore wobble questions, just answer them. This ES has the wood wheel on it, and I'm 50/50 on how I like it. Feels smooth in the hands, but if you've got lotion on, it's slick. And you can't use your knee very well to hold the wheel for those quick times when you need both hands. Oh, and good lord is it COLD in the morning. But I like the way it looks and feels when turning. I have no idea when I'll get the LS back, probably not until next week sometime. Gun, check out www.lexuspartsonline.com for price quotes on struts and springs. I wouldn't think you would have to replace that many parts as I think the control arms are all the same. I know my oem struts were like $48 a piece. Probably some nickle and dime hardware changes in the upper connectors along with the springs.

NC - Wow, thanks man! You must be going crazy with all that free time without your LS on your hands! What will you do when it's all fixed up! I have never heard of the Dealer having the parts for conversion but that would be amazing if they did. At this point the only two companies that I can find for conversion kits are Strutmasters and SuncoreIndustries. Suncore's website was sorely lacking and I never got more than 1 lame e-mail response. It would make sense that by installing the hardware I could use OEM parts. Just a little more work to compress the spring onto the strut vs. a fully assembled conversion kit. Pretty sure Strutmasters uses the KYB GR-2 which would ride slightly firmer than OEM but I have no info on the maker of the springs. I'd gladly pay more than $745 (Strutmasters) if I could convert to the same with OEM parts.

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[LexusZaphod]

I replaced all my air shocks with springs which is cheaper but the ride is not nearly as good and of course not adjustable anymore. I kept the 3 good shocks though so if you want to purchase them on EBay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Lexus-LS400...039757939QQrdZ1

Mention you are a member of this club and I'll give you 10% off

Cheers,

Colin :) :)