Senna4ever

Vtechbrain

Hmph, I opened this thread in a somewhat petulant mood, but I shall try to be somewhat diplomatic...

*Begin rant*

Vtechbrain, please read my posts properly! I was never raggin' on Hondas! If you read my previous 4 posts, I think you will find that I am a Honda lover! Why do you think I kept my 1989 Legend coupe LS for 14 years? I bought her in 1989 because Ayrton Senna & Alain Prost won 15 out of 16 races in 1988 with their McLaren-Hondas! Senna would have won the Italian GP and made it 16 if it wasn't for that bonehead rookie Jean-Louis Schlesser taking him out.

I bought her because the Legend V6 was, in essence half of an F1 Honda V12 detuned for streetability, and was also developed in part by Senna himself. All subseqent Honda V6's have their roots in this engine. I also chose the colour white, as Japan's national racing colour is white.

Dude, I am an Ayrton Senna da Silva fanatic, so don't go lecturing me on the late, great Brazilian....

I am also a Honda enthusiast, so don't patronize me regarding Honda cars. I am a member and frequent participant in various Honda forums. Do you know the difference between the B, D, H or K series engines? Which ones rotate clockwise and which ones rotate counter-clockwise? The differences between the H22 and an H22a? What is a DC5, or a CD7?

But, I digress. My point was that you keep thinking that I do not like Hondas....simply not true. My Legend was the most fun to drive car I have ever owned. Please refer to my earlier post listing what my Legend had vs. what my current ES300 has.

I'll bet your TL doesn't come with the features the Legend had. In fact, I know, because I spent an entire afternoon test driving a 2003 TL Type-S and a 2004 TL. The reason I bought my ES300 vs. the 2002 TL Type-S was the tranny issues I had heard about, and now Honda is recalling all cars equipped with a V6 mated to their 5sp auto. My friend's TL had his tranny die just past the 70,000km (48,000mi) mark. The TL's are immensely fun to drive, and are very powerful. I plan to get a TL in 2005, once most of the bugs have been worked out. On the other hand, my ES is beginning to grow on me, so who knows which way I will go?

Senna you cant get around the fact that the the honda v6 has a higher output than the toyota v8, sorry you have such sour grapes. Yes the lexus has more torque but so does a GMC pickuptruck diesel, as far as I know people dont use their luxury cars to pull tree stumps.

What do you mean I can't "get around the fact that the Honda V6 has a higher output than the Toyota V8?" What gave you that impression? What sour grapes? I posted those figures FYI. Of course I don't pull tree stumps on a daily basis, but torque makes all the difference in drivability. Honda engines have a history of making max power at relatively high revs. This is fine, but I don't enjoy revving the hell out of an engine in everyday stop & go traffic just to keep up. <----this is true in the smaller I4's. The V6's are great, but even so, the torque figures are relatively low, too. Honda does not have an engine that has more torque (lbs/ft) than hp, except the CRV engine (160hp, 161lbs/ft). The Toyota V6's have a generous amount of torque compared to hp.

Consider the Corvette. In 6th gear, it can cruise @ 60mph with the engine turning @ 1500rpm! The motor has enough torque to do it. Try doing that in any other car.

As far as reliabilty of the AWD system its a derivative of the MDX system which to date has been bullet proof.

Ok, I agree with you here, but even you have to admit it is a complex system with many moving parts that can potentially break.

Nissan VQ engines although almost as powerful as hondas are eons below in refinement.

Really? The VQ engines have won numerous awards for drivability and tractability. I test drove a G35 coupe, and it is a hell of a car. Interior has a bit of a cheap feel to it, though. Go drive one, I doubt you will be dissapointed. I never said the BMW I6 and Nissan VQ's were better. I threw them out on the table for comparison purposes.

BMW' in line sixes are all less powerful than Hondas except for the M series engine which are race not passenger vehicle motors.

What? The M3/M5 engines are not racing engines. They have beem massaged by M Division, but retain full street credentials. Again, back up, or be prepared to back up statements with known facts. Yes the BMW i6's are less powerfull relative to displacement, but the BMW I6's are smoother and more balanced than the Honda V6. Why? Inline 6 engines, not just BMW, but all inline 6's are inherently balanced, and have less vibration...no need for counter-rotating balance shafts.

What if honda decided to put one of their racing engines in a passenger cars (800 HP v8's anyone)?

*sigh* A racing Indy V8 or F1 V10 would blow up after 500 miles. NOT a valid argument. Nevermind that you'd need to keep it in it's powerband to make it even remotely drivable. About 10,300rpm for the Indy V8 and about 18,000rpm for the F1 V10. 800hp V8 racing engine in a passenger car? Pshhhh... In 1988 Callaway made the Sledgehammer Corvette with 880hp, 772lbs/ft with a 255 mph top speed. Fully street legal with Chevy warranty.

Yes Acura only exists in Canada and US but who cares as far as I know I or you dont live in England or Japan. Acura came into being in america BEFORE lexus.

Your point? You said that Acura was the first Japanese luxury brand, which is true in a sense, but there were Japanese cars that were way above the Legend's price point preceeding Acura's introduction. Lexus and Infiniti came in to compete at a higher level than Acura. Are you saying that because Acura was introduced first it is better?

If my Acura wore a Honda badge the ES 300 would sill be licking the ground behind it !!! I personally couldn't care less for which symbol sits on the hood, if I really wanted to I could had bought any hood ornament in the market.

Huh????

There is simply no denying that Honda is the premier engine maker in the world

What do you mean by 'premier'? What makes Honda the 'best'? What criteria are you using to arrive at this conclusion? I'm not saying that they're not, but I am curious as to how/why you think this is so.

Vtechbrain, do you speak from experience, or are you one of those MAGAZINE BENCH RACERS who keep spouting off like they're the f*****g engineers behind these cars? I speak (write) from personal experience, not what I read in an automobile magazine.

*End rant*

PS....why "Vtechbrain" instead of "VTECbrain"? If you are such a Honda fan, you should at least know that "Vtech" is wrong....it's VTEC!!! Sheesh. As I said before, 'Vtech' is a manufacturer of cheap telecommunications equipment.

VTEC stands for: Variable valve Timing and Electronic lift Control. Now, tell me, Mr. Vtech: where is the letter "H"?

LOC members: Sorry for the long (well, actually short by Shakespearean stanfards!) soliloquy...I feel better now.

Whoa, d00d....flame war in 3...2....1....

Thanks! It's 'Senna,' the racing driver, not 'sienna,' the minivan, dude! :) The last year for the Legend was 1995, BTW! Yes, the 6 speed was/is a very rare car. As for beat up, that would apply to anywhere in Canada but the west coast. They salt the roads in winter over there in the east, don't they?

no body thinks lexus makes performance cars ,so why do you keep trying to prove that point ,it isn't an issue.

Acura is a nice car but you dont' see someone impressed by a 15 year old acrua legend or integra ? try that with a mercedes lexus or bmw they have staying power.

Hey, sk! I think you are right for the most part. I have to disagree with you saying the Legends don't get noticed. I had plenty of admiring looks with my old 1989 Legend coupe. I kept her in good condition, and even though I had to sell her last summer, people (who obviously did not know much about cars) commented how sporty she looked, and when I told him/her (usually a her! )that the car was over 10 years old, they mentioned the (exterior) design had aged extremely well. I think the Legend coupes were/are great cars. I still love them, anyways. She was more fun to drive than my current ES300, which is the reason I kept her so long. Ride quality & interior noise levels were only slightly worse than my ES300. Everytime I see one on the road, I truly miss my trusty Legend coupe. :(

My 1989 Legend coupe had:

1) auto climate control. ES300 has this also.

2) THREE seat position memory Driver seat had 8 way power seats, passenger only had 4. ES300 only has two seat position memory, but both front seats have 8 way power seats.

3) FIVE level seat heaters, ES300 only has 'on' or 'off'.

4) leather in the door panels, ES300 has vinyl inserts.

5) the rear windows rolled down (this is a 2-door coupe, remember)

6) auxillary remote radio controls within fingertip reach of the steering wheel

7) more storage compartments than you can shake a stick at.

8) doors automatically locked 10 seconds after shifting into 'D', and unlocked after turning off ignition.

LS 430 4.3L v8 290HP. New RL 3.5L v6 300HP AWD. TL 3.2l V6 270 HP. Reliability scores Toyota #1 Honda #2. Best entry luxury sedan (by consumer reports) Acura TL The ES is #4. Last Indy race Honda had the first six positions Toyota and ford scrapped the end of the barrel. I think more automotive research is warranted on your end!

2005 Honda Legend/Acura RL: 3,748 lbs. 300hp @6200 rpm, 260lb-ft @ 5000 rpm.

2004 Toyota Celsior/Lexus LS430: 3,990 lbs. 290 hp @ 5,600 rpm, 320 lb-ft @ 3,400 rpm.

Look at the power & torque figures. The power & torque from the Toyota V8 is available at a much lower rpm than the Honda...and there is 60 lbs more torque. The LS weighs 240 lbs more than the RL.... I think the LS is the more drivable car here...

vtechbrain: please research your posts before shooting your mouth off. BTW, what does the 'vtech' in your name stand for anyway? 'VTech' is a company that makes cheap cordless phones, according to the electronics store ad insert in my weekend newspaper. Do you mean 'VTEC' perhaps? :whistles:

PS...GM also supplies BMW, Rover & Opel with transmissions.

Oh BTW the LS 430 (hands down the best Luxury sedan in the market at this time) better watch its backside because the New RL is not going to take any prisoners.  I agree the present RL is as interesting as a colonoscopy, but the new RL looks like it will make up for any previous deficiencies and maybe become a segment leader like the TL. The Acura brand was neglected when Honda focused on "trucks" now it looks like they are back in the ballgame. Never forget that Acura, not lexus was the first Japanese "luxury" brand. Toyota will have to raise the ante now instead of depending on inferior engine technology. No one doubts that Honda makes the most advanced 4's and sixes in the planet (even GM buy's them now!) Lexus has been using the same old tired 8 for a decade now which has a lower output than Hondas 6's (the new RL has a 300HP normally aspirated V6). VVti has been the limp toyota experiment to copy Honda's VTEC technology which is at least one generation ahead. The next few years will be interesting indeed. I love the David and Goliath competitions.

WTF are you talkin' 'bout? Yes, the LS430 is an awesome car, but hands down? That is subject to opinion. The BMW 7 exists for the driver who wants luxury + sportiness, etc... The Acura RL/Honda Legend is in a different class from the LS. The LS costs close to $100K here in Canada, while the RL is expected to sell for about $50K. Yes, it will be a damn fine car, but it will compete in the mid-size ES330, BMW 5, MB E-class, Jaguar S-Type class. Power isn't everything. Yes, the RL will have a trick AWD system, but how reliable will it be, and how much will repairs be for such a complex system? Admittedly, I am looking forward to the car, as I am an ex-Legend owner, and am still somewhat loyal to the Honda brand.

Acura was the first Japanese luxury nameplate in North America. "Acura" as a brand does not exist anywhere else. Honda does not have a vehicle that competes with the Toyota Century, a V12 luxo-barge sold only in Japan and is positioned above the Celsior/LS430, or Nissan's President, another car not available here, which is positioned above the Cima/Q45. Hell, Honda doesn't have a full-size luxury car, period. The Century and President have been sold in Japan for years before "Acura" came out.

If you go to anywhere outside of North America, and you tell them that you own an Acura, they would not know what you are talking about. The Acura RL is the Honda Legend, the RSX is the Honda Integra, the 1.7 EL is only sold in Canada, and the new TL is only sold in North America. The previous TL was sold as the Honda Inspire in Japan, but the current North American Accord is now sold as the Inspire in Japan. The TSX is the Honda Accord worldwide. The Acura MDX is the Honda MDX.

I agree that Honda may make the most advanced 4 pots, but 6's? As much as I like Honda V6's, I must throw these out: BMW I6 , Nissan's VQ. Have you ever driven a BMW or Nissan 6 cylinder car? I suspect not.

Honda has always had fantastic HP output with their engines, but torque figures were always pretty low.

You have to realize that Vtec & VVTi are different in that VVTi is more seamless than the kick in the !Removed! Vtec gives you. Why do you think Honda introduced the i-Vtec?

The audio system in the 2004 TL is not as clear as the Pioneer system in my 1997 ES300. The DVD audio gives great sound separation, but the Lexus systems are of higher fidelity.

I recall seeing a one-off LS400 convertible about 10 years ago. It was built by a famous company in California....can't remember the name...

The whole bumper was redesigned in 2000 I believe and the fogs are clear. No, the 1997 fogs will not fit in the new bumper and vice versa.

If your parents decide on the ES330, I suggest the AVS suspension.

Its not availiable on the east coast ;)

Really? I thought one could special order it....

Hey, krg04! <-----that's root beer (cuz you're not old enuf yet!), not real beer!

Welcome to the club. Anyways, here is my 2 cents.

In addition to my 1997 ES300, I had a 1989 Acura Legend coupe. Sadly, I sold the Legend last year. I loved that car, as it was more fun to drive than my ES. I considered buying a 2004 TL, or one of the left over stock of 2003 TL Type-S. I loved the TL-S because one day when I took in my Legend for servicing they had overbooked on loaner cars, so the guys gave me the dealership's demo TL-S for the day! Woot! That car was a blast to drive...I loved it.

Then the new 2004 TL came out. I took it for a test drive, and was a bit dissapointed. The car has an awesome drivetrain, very powerful and very fun to drive, but the ride is much more harsh and NVH levels are much higher than my ES300. Maybe even more so than my old Legend. The BOSE stereo isn't as clear as the Pioneer system in my 7 year old ES300. The ES300/330 are so much more refined. Not as fun to drive as a TL, but it doesn't bother me too much.

If your parents decide on the ES330, I suggest the AVS suspension. In comfort mode it's as smooth as a Caddilac, but in sports mode, it gets tight and almost rides and handles like a TL. You really can't go wrong with the two cars, it's just personal preference. I suspect your parents will appreciate the higher refinment levels that the ES offers, unless they are regular canyon carvers.

If I had to make a choice between a 2004 ES330 & a 2004 TL, I would have to go for a long test drive to make a decision, but I think I would opt for an ES330, or maybe even a 2003 TL Type-S, as I like the styling more than the 2004.

Just tell your parents to ask both dealers for an extended test drive consisting of highway, city roads, winding roads and some bumpy sections. Pay attention to ride, NVH, ergonomics, ingress/egress, & comfort (are the seats comfortable on a long drive? Are the controls within easy reach?). You just can't tell what the car is like from a 15 minute test.

Hope this helps, man! B)

No worries. B)

I finally found it. *WHEW!* Go here.

http://parts.pioneerelectronics.com/part.a...ductNum=CWM4319

Here's the original thread:

http://us.lexusownersclub.com/forums/index...showtopic=7729&

There was a thread on this somewhere. You can just replace the LCD display. I forgot the part number, but it was listed on the Pioneer USA site. I need one, too. The dealers will tell ya that you need to replace the whole unit, but that costs hundreds of $$$. Screw them. The display alone costs $85, if I remember correctly.

Hmf....no Sunoco here in Vancouver....never even heard of it. Guess I'll try Shell.

Older CD players also will not play CD-R/CDRW discs. They are not as reflective as commercially made CDs, so older players cannot read them.

Yes, but an automall consists of independent dealers. I find it hard to believe that one dealer would have both Honda & Toyotas.

A Honda/Toyota dealership??? :o

Galvanized steel.

I feel your pain....I got sideswiped last week. $1800 damage. It's so frustrating when one keeps his/her car spotless and accident free and then some fool comes along and ruins it. My first accident in 7 years...at least I didn't cause it...

My 97 only has on or off.

Acura?! :chairshot:

Heyyyyyy....what's wrong with Acura? :o Well, the newer ones are not built as well as the older ones for sure, but I used to have a 1989 Legend Coupe. That car had many features not available on my 1997 ES300.

For example:

1) 3 power seat settings.

2) 5 level heated seats...ES's only have either on or off.

3) separate mirror heater button.

4) leather even covers the side of the seats, not just seating surfaces.

5) doors lock automatically 10 seconds after turning ignition, unlocks when engine turned off.

6) rear windows roll down...on a coupe! I know the ES300 is a sedan, but I thought I'd just throw that in! Not many coupes have roll-down rear windows!

7) foglights that actually work.

8) semi-automatic transmission with sport mode.

9) remote stereo controls near steering wheel.

10) graphic equalizer ion stock stereo headunit.

Just to name a few. But I do love my ES300!!! I just miss some of the features that I had in my Legend.

TL's are great cars, but tranny is made of glass. I have 2 friends whose trannies blew before the 80,000kms (50,000 miles) mark. Honda seems to have fixed the problem for the 2003 model year, but not sure of the 2002's. Good luck! I love those cars.

I got one as a courtesy car at my Acura dealer because they overbooked on their loaner cars, so they gave me the dealership's demo and loved it. Brought it in about 1 minute before closing!

Mercedes tried the cylinder deactivation in 1999-2001 I think in the S class. Honda will have a variable displacement V6 in their 2005 Accord V6 hybrid. B)

I feel for you guys down there in the US...no such thing as a toll highway here, save for one highway that no one really uses.