SW03ES

I heard a few other people say the same thing about the taillights, that the design is more generic looking and less unique than the current round turn signal in the middle of the lamp. I also agree about the grille. The trim on the inside around the center stack and nav system and around the door handles is now a bright silver finish instead of the darker charcoal it is now. I'll try and find a picture for comparison.

Not bad at all actually. I'm REALLY dissapointed they didn't change the wheels. IMO this is the weakest point of the ES' design. I had heard they were going to do some 17s but I guess not. Oh well. The new front fascia is nice. The round fogs will take some getting used to but they do make the front look more aggressive. The new grille is hideous, the current one is much better looking. The headlights aren't bad, projector lighting is much prefered to reflector but the look will take some getting used to. The rear. I like the new taillights, not neccisarily more than the current ones but they're nice. They seem to have an interesting lighting pattern. If the price isn't too bad I might be persuaded to swap them on mine in a couple years if I get bored. The tiny chrome strip on the trunk bar over the license plate looks GREAT! I've long thought the ES needed that and will definately buy that part for my car. The interior. New steering wheel w/audio controls, LOVE IT! Why this didnt come on the ES when it came out in 03 I couldn't tell you. Sadly though I doubt that will retrofit to older cars. I can see a voice activation button on it for the nav which means obviously voice activated nav but sadly no phone button which means no bluetooth connectivity like the RX is getting. The new color of the trim is a little strange, seems to stand out more than the current color which blends in and flows. Sort of garish. The addition of the blond wood on the ivory interior looks very nic, it goes better than the reddish wood which looks best on gray and black. Overall I like it, its not going to get me out of my 03 but it might make me order a couple parts. I'm happy they haven't changed it too much. I'll look forward to seeing the redesign in 06 or 07. I've seen the facelifted Camry in person and they did a nice job with that as well. Whats everyone else think?

I'll post the pics first then give my opinion:

Generally the feeling is that AWD may not provide much added traction because of the VSC system limiting wheelspin. I don't have an RX330 but this makes sense to me. A good set of snow tires is going to be a must in Michigan. My bet is with snow tires you're going to be just fine in your FWD RX.

Lemme guess, an Acura forum? LOL. hondaacura.net or acura-tl.com? Don't pay those people any attention, every car forum (except a few ones like this one) are like that, always downing the competitors product., A certain other Lexus board which shall remain nameless is infamous for getting into *BLEEP*ing matches with MBWorld and the BMW forums. Its just a bunch of desk chair knowitalls flapping their fingers, its really pretty sad. The common cry of Lexus haters is that the cars are only dressed up Toyotas and that the ES especially is only a dressed up Camry. People that feel this way simply don't know what they are talking about and have never directly compared a Lexus and Toyota product. Only about 20% of the ES comes from the Camry and thats basically powertrain and suspension components. I love Lexus vehicles and I too thought I could get away with just buying a Camry...until I drove one. Its a totally different car. The members of the forum I mentioned before even ostracize the ES owners because it isn't a "real Lexus". Some people are just arrogant morons, if they have to put down other people and other vehicles to make themselves feel better about their purchase, let em. Don't let their behavior turn you off of the TL, you and your mom may really like it. They just don't have as much class as we have here at the LOC ;)

I think the reverse is true for the TL. For some reason, they tend sell for a higher price in CA than in the Northeast. Thats very possible. Maybe because the TL is made here and the ES is made in Japan. Thats another reason to buy the ES over the TL, the TL is built here. Not to knock american workers but even in cars like the Camry you can see a real quality difference between Camrys made in Japan and Camrys made here. We just don't have the same attention to detail the Japanese have.

No problem buddy, I'm happy to help! I see a good many 02's with no HID but they're most likely early run cars. Lexus ships them acording to area of the country, the cars that come into the east coast all ship a certain way while the cars that ship to the west coast another. They get several versions of the ES in CA that we don't get here. For instance all nav/lev cars in CA have chrome wheels and AVS while on the east coast both of those options are basically unavailiable from the factory. Lexus is just weird like that. The styling is an interesting comparison between the two. I shopped for almost two years before I bought my ES and was originally going to get a GS300 or a pre owned LS400. I really didnt like the new ES. It grows on you, every time I see it I like it more, and now I think its one of the best looking sedans on the road. The TL is edgy and trendy and instantly likable. The question will be which design is still going to look contemporary 5-6 years down the road. My guess is it will be the ES because of the fact that the design needs to grow on people. The TL looks great and "now" but 6 years from now who knows what "now" will be. I think thats one of Lexus' best attributes, their cars age so gracefully. Even 92 ES300s still look pretty fresh and new. I see a nice one thats well cared for and its still really a car to be proud of. Acura had that with the Legend but that died along with the Legend model name. As for the colors light colors seem to be the most popular on the ES, the tan interior is also very popular. Mystic Sea (light green) and tan is a good combination. This car also comes with grey interior but its very rare. Black garnet (my cars color) is great looking and also usually ships with tan (mine's black). Black cars also usually ship with tan. White always has tan. If she wants a light color with tan it will have to be the Mystic Sea or the white. I think both look great on the ES. Lexus has a color called "Alabaster Metallic" which is sort of an off-white grey silvery tan color. Lexus salesmen call this car the "unwanted child" and you can usually find really good discounts on them as dealerships hate having them in inventory. Its not a bad looking color in certain lights, but its not as nice as the rest of the ES' colors. Its usually matched with grey, sometimes with black interiors. For me it was between three colors, Millenium Silver with black interior, Mystic Sea with grey interior, and Black Garnet with Black interior. I decided against the silver because everyone had it, the Mystic Sea was simply too hard to get with a grey interior and I didnt want tan, so it was the Black Garnet. I don't reccomend she get this color unless you or she are willing to care for it. It scratches easy and really looks bad when its dirty, needs to be cared for with detailing knowledge. The Mystic Sea and the white will be much easier to keep nice.

Run a search for this topic, there are several very heated discussions about it ;)

I bought mine last week for $700 under invoice. No trade in. In Southern CA. Thats CA though. For some reason the prices are way lower in CA for Lexus. When I bought mine I almost got it from a buying service out of CA but the shipping would have eaten up the savings.

Okay dug around with the pricing some more. We're BOTH forgetting the destination charge. The base ES, the one they don't ship with the destination charge of $650 is $32350. The base TL with destination charge of $545 is $33,195. So there you would think the TL is a little more expensive, but its not. For one they don't ship base ES's that way, for another that price TL has way more equipment than that price ES. You have to compare the premium package car, the "real base ES" for an adequate comparison. THAT car with destination is $35,201. The invoice is $30,991 so a good target prrice is right where they're offering it at $32k. You MIGHT be able to do better on your own which is usually the case with no haggle dealers but thats a pretty good price. Thats the car you've got to compare to the base TL. So even with the $750 discount if the car is $32,000 even with the no haggle pricing the price is STILL $31,250. If you're saying the Acura can be had for $31,600 then they're almost the same price, niether one is cheaper than the other. $350 isn't worth buying one over the other. The nav cars are about the same but the price gap is wider with the Lexus being slightly more. ES with nav are relatively rare and usually demand more in the market. My point is don't get your hopes up about getting a "base ES" at all kinds of savings even if the dealership says they can get you one. They simply don't make them that way.

Keep in mind he will have to special order a car with the AVS suspension in NH. Lexus only ships the AVS suspension to the west coast, it is a special order option everywhere else.

I'm sure she could get a premium package car for under 30k if it were an undesirable color combination or something, carry over from another model year, dealer demo. That doesn't change the fact that it MSRPs for more than the base TL MSRPs for, thats all I'm saying. I'm getting the $32k figure from you actually. The 32k figure on the price of the TL comes from the Acura website. Even if I did forget the destination charge its only $500 or so. My point was if you buy that ES for $32,XXX and if you have to pay MSRP for the TL, they cost the same amount. Any discount you got on the TL would make it cheaper than the ES. There's a lot of bargaining room on the ES but they're not going to sell it under invoice, and the invoice is similar to the MSRP of the TL. My point is even if you can get an ES for invoice, its going to cost the same as a similarly equipped TL sold at MSRP. As for special orders, some dealers will let you and some wont. Lexus really doesn't like customers to special order cars and it takes about 6 months to get the car, plus any bargaining room is shot as you have to put down a sizable non-refundable deposit to order the car. Sometimes you can get lucky and find a base ES that has been dropped from a fleet order or something, but these cars don't have any equipment, not even HID headlights. I didn't know about the college discount, thats pretty cool. As for the fun to drive, I love my ES but its not "fun to drive". Its designed with no sport whatsoever on purpose, Lexus' stance is that they have the IS for sport and there is no reason for them to try and make people who want a sporty ride buy the ES. It rides and drives like an isolation tank, feels like its sitting still etc. I love it but if your mom wants a sporty drive she wont. Only way to find out is to take em for a frive ;) Good luck!

You haven't seen ES's that MSRP for less than 35k. They simply do not ship them that way. Maybe the no haggle price sure, but not the MSRP. If a dealer has such a car they special ordered it. When I bought my ES the car MSRP'd for $39,670 and I got it for $35500. Thats about $1000 over invoice, they're selling TLs here for about the same savings now as long as its a 5 speed and not a manual. The MDX is a totally different situation and in a lot of cities there is actually a waiting list. The TL is in much more ample supply. If anything the extra savings you get on the ES over the TL EQUALS them out in price, but there's no way the TL will cost more similarly equipped. You say you saw the premium package es for $32 and change, well thats the MSRP of the base TL. So even if you had to pay MSRP for the TL and got a substatial discount on the ES, they're still the same in cost. I can price these things in my sleep ;) As for the discount, that must be a dealer thing. As far as I know Lexus doesn't offer a college graduate discount from the factory. Like everything else it depends on the region and dealership, I've also never seen a Lexus dealer with no haggle pricing like that, thats definately odd...

I detailed a brand new TL today, its not as plush and soft inside as the ES. Thats okay though its not supposed to be. Acura definately moved in the direction of BMW with the new TL, hence the firmer more german look and feel to the interior. The guy actually also has an 02 ES300 and he agreed with my assessments of the differences. As for it rating higher, I haven't seen a review that says that. I have seen reviews that say what I'm saying, they're very different cars aimed at very different buyers. I would never buy a new TL, but I would and did buy an ES. Different cars, different buyers. Which one you prefer is a matter of personal taste not how good either car is. As for the pricing, true the "base price" of the ES is $31k and change but the TL still costs less. See, they don't ship ES equipped like that, the car basically doesn't exist. Lexus ships the ES one of two ways: 1. A "premium package" car that includes wood leather wheel, HID, VSC, wheel locks trunk mat etc. (like steviej's car) This car MSRPs at $35,174. This is the TRUE base ES. 2. A "nav/lev" car that includes the navigation system, the ML audio, and the rear sunshade on top of what the premium package has (like my and amf's cars). This car is the "loaded" car and is MSRPs for $37,934. ES of different configurations are around but are rare, lower optioned ES are special orders or fleet cars. Even the loaner cars at Lexus dealers are premium package cars. They just don't make them lesser. The base TL 5 speed auto starts at $32,650 ($2524 less than the ES w/ premium) and that already includes everything on the premium package ES and ALSO includes their premium stereo which you have to step up to the nav/lev ES to get. The TL also has bi-xenon headlights the Lexus only has xenon. Price advantage TL base. As for loaded, the 5 speed TL with nav is $34,650 ($3284 less than the nav/lev ES) and you get features the nav/lev ES doesn't have like voice activated nav, XM radio, bluetooth phone connectivity, solar sensing climate control. The TL is DEFINATELY a substantially cheaper vehicle than the ES. You also get more features for the money, but the question is which do you prefer comfort or sport. The TL strikes me as a good compromise for people who like some german precision but aren't willing to fully commit to something like a BMW.

That depends on how you're financing. If you 're financing or paying cash buy the 04, if leasing wait for an 05 as the residual value will be higher. The only changes are going to be some new colors and additional options like SESS (smart Entry/Smart Start, keyless entry and start) and bluetooth phone connectivity.

You mean for your Sienna van? Try out www.siennaclub.org

Try wiping down the areas with 50/50 dillution of Isopropyl Alcohol and water. I bet its just polish or sealant built up in one of the layers.

Well spilling oil on something isn't going to mean it needs to be replace, it just needs to be cleaned up. A Lexus dealer that charges over $100 for an oil change should be capable of doing the job without making a mess damaging something that requires replacement.

Never happened to me with the sunroof open, only one or more rear windows.

No offense to those that own them but the 97-01 ES isn't anywhere near as well built or as high quality as the 02+. Its hard to even believe the two cars are the same car. When they set out to design the 02 they set out to build a "baby LS" with all attention given to high quality and luxury ride. Check out some reviews from when the 02 first came out and read the authors reactions to the improvement over the previous car. The words "feels like a 50k car" aren't mine but I agree with them. The first comment out of everyones mouth when they ride in my car is "It only cost how much?". The 02+ ES has real wood, the same leather used in the LS, the same dash covering material, and the Mark Levinson audio. The main reason I bought the ES is because it very closely approximated the ride and noise level of my dad's LS. What I really wanted was an LS but I couldn't afford a new one and didn't want to purchased used. He now has a new 04 LS and he always comments how similar my car rides when he rides in it and how hard it is to believe its a $30k cheaper car. The ES certainly is a smaller car than say an LS or equivelent, and it definately lacks the V8 power but thats about all. The ES actually is larger and has more interior room than the Lexus GS, Benz E class, BMW 5 series. I regularly detail a 530i, brand new. I wouldn't trade my ES for it for anything. Sat in a E320 at the Benz dealer, interior doesn't seem as nice or as high quality. Its just a great car for the money. Keep in mind whenever I make comparisons about the ES I'm always talking about my generation ES, the previous ones are just completely different cars.

Actually the TL costs several thousand dollars less than the ES. I almost bought a TL (the previous generation) and got the Lexus (which cost $10,000 more at the time) instead because the quality was so much more evident in the ES. Real wood, softer touch plastics, more heft in the doors etc. I have not driven a new TL but I sat in one. The styling and quality are much better but I still wouldn't buy one. In fact, it didnt even interest me enough to drive it. Seats were hard, gauges were gimmicky looking. Interior looks good but the quality feel isn't as high. IMO the real difference is the TL is a 30-35k car that feels like a 30-35k car. The ES is a 32-38k car that feels like a 50k car. The difference is immediately apparent to me when I sit in other entry luxury cars and even mid luxury cars (E class benz etc), the ES feels much more expensive.

Same for me, its not even a concious thing, its just how I drive it. No hesitation.

Actually if it goes like the Prius, it will be the people waiting on fully loaded cars that will be waiting. The top package of the Prius, #9 is the most popular. Lesser packages even sometimes sit on the dealers lot unsold... People are willing to pass on a lesser optioned Prius and wait 10 months for a #9. Gotta remember its the tech people that love these cars, and they want all the toys. I don't know if there is one, but I would contact a Lexus dealer in West Virginia. Waits here were 8 months on the Prius, I called a Toyota dealer in WV and had a car in 3 weeks exactly like we wanted down to the color and package. Any dealer that is not running a list will be charging a markup, you can bet on it. You don't want to do business with people that charge a markup or would even consider it, thats price gouging and its not ethical. I refuse to do business with any dealership that marks up cars past list.

Lexus won't install the antenna anywhere but the rear decklid. You SOMETIMES can talk them into putting it in the middle of the trunk all the way by the window. My dad has it on his 430 and it doesn't look bad. You can have them painted body color if you like.

Tundra- Sounds to me like all in all you're just in the wrong vehicle... I like trucks too, and I had an Explorer before this. I do miss the high seating position and the room when going on trips, but thats all I miss. I will never drive another truck/SUV as a daily driver. The ES is just so much more comfortable. I might be persuaded to look into a car based SUV like an Infiniti FX if down the line I needed the space, but never a truck again. Ricky- The vehicle learning isn't going to make the hesitation going away, but you lerning will. Practice being as smooth on the throttle as you can, don't use full throttle acceleration etc.