1996 Ls400 Steering Sloppy Help!

[yotoy82]

My 1996 Lexus LS400 was in storage for 10 months since I was out of the country (in a locked enclosed storage unit). Before storage, it literally drove like it was on railroad tracks, no vibration on the steering wheel whatsoever, no play in the steering wheel, it was TIGHT.

Upon returning, the steering is sloppy. I can literally jiggle the steering wheel quite a bit left and right before feel any resistance and the car moves.

ALSO, there is a vibration with the steering wheel, and I am having to CONSTANTLY make steering corrections to keep the car straight.

ALSO, the car shakes on the interstate like there is a hurricane amount of wind outside, but there IS NO WIND!

What I changed recently:

1. Brand new V-rated tires with correct tire pressure 29-30 all around

2. Changed the steering rack with an official lexus remanufactured unit since the previous one was leaking, NO CHANGE

3. Both upper ball joints were finished, changed both side upper control arms

4. I did a wheel balancing, no help at all

5. Did an alignment after changing the rack and ball joints, NO HELP.

6. All 4 ends have brand new original Lexus shocks with new mounts

7. Both front lower ball joints are new

8. Both front strut rods are new

I'm at a loss here. A video is attached, (ignore the music, sorry for the vertical video) some may think this jiggling is normal but its not, there is ZERO response from the car to this amount of jiggling. Actually if I hold it tight and straight, the car acts like it still wants to go its own way =(

Check out this video on YouTube:

[landar]

With your symptoms, it sounds like it could be steering linkage. Check the steering box for slop as well as the linkage to each wheel. You have to get under the car while someone is wiggling the wheel to see how much slop there is and if it is excessive.

You can also lift the front end of the car so that both wheels are off the ground, then grab the tire at the 9 and 3 O'clock positions and try wiggling back and forth. It should not budge, otherwise you may have slop in the linkage. With new tires, I would also recheck the balance on them. Maybe a tire belt is bad? It happens. You can swap front to back to determine if there is any change.

Finally, a good alignment shop should have no problem at all inspecting and identifying any issues in this area for a small fee. It sounds like you have already poured a lot of $$$ into this.

[yotoy82]

With your symptoms, it sounds like it could be steering linkage. Check the steering box for slop as well as the linkage to each wheel. You have to get under the car while someone is wiggling the wheel to see how much slop there is and if it is excessive.

You can also lift the front end of the car so that both wheels are off the ground, then grab the tire at the 9 and 3 O'clock positions and try wiggling back and forth. It should not budge, otherwise you may have slop in the linkage. With new tires, I would also recheck the balance on them. Maybe a tire belt is bad? It happens. You can swap front to back to determine if there is any change.

Finally, a good alignment shop should have no problem at all inspecting and identifying any issues in this area for a small fee. It sounds like you have already poured a lot of $$$ into this.

I have poured a LOT but I love my car, it is pristine.. and I haven't really poured all this money at one time, but the few things I did just because they needed done.

Tires look good. I had them balanced a second time. I'm pretty skeptical its the tires but its possible, something to look at. I can't remember if the issue was still there before the tires or not because I changed the tires pretty much right after taking it out of storage since they were weather cracked like anything.

And I'm sure if there was any problems with the wiggle test, they wouldn't have done an alignment.

I'm almost feeling like it is a problem with the steering shaft and the joints associated, possible?

Lexus dealer says half an hour labor to diagnose/inspect, and that is about 68 bucks. At this point almost worth it

[billydpowell]

Randall gave you some very good advice, but you explained away all of it...... I guess I just dont understand what you are after, I'm sure most of us feel sorry you are having these problems, but if you write off our guru annalist, there is not much we can say, but good luck....

[yotoy82]

Randall gave you some very good advice, but you explained away all of it...... I guess I just dont understand what you are after, I'm sure most of us feel sorry you are having these problems, but if you write off our guru annalist, there is not much we can say, but good luck....

Not a write off at all just constructive banter elaborating on whats been done because it is hard for others to know without seeing the car in person or what has been done on it. I respect his answers and opinions and am picking his brain, I am not a car expert and I am learning by answering questions back to him.

If you had something to add please do, and if he doesn't agree that is his choice. This is what a forum is for, not sure why you cannot comprehend.

[landar]

Now boys....I know what Billy is saying and I understand your situation Joseph. I do not take any offense but keep an open mind to suggestions. Sometimes it is worth taking a second look at some area that you are sure is not a problem. Because, after a second look, darn if it is not bad after all. I have had that happen before.

You are right...that not being able to see your car in person, is a big disadvantage for us on the forum. We try to do our best but it is difficult.

I would also not make the assumption that if the linkage were sloppy, the alignment shop (whoever that was) would not have proceeded. I know nothing of this shop but it very possible that they put someone on it who just went thru the 'motions' of alignment.

It would be very much worth it to have Lexus diagnose for $68. They know these cars well but so does a "good" alignment shop. Personally, I would not take my car to the dealer to have an alignment because I know of shops in my area that do nothing but alignments and some are very good. Others, I would not let them touch my car.

Finally, I did not mean to imply that you should NOT pour $$$ into your car. From your first post, it sounded to me as if you were throwing money at this particular problem by blindly changing out parts, which is not really a good idea. On subsequent posts, it sounds like you were just taking care of long standing issues with your car, which is fine.

My advise would be to research alignment shops in your area, find the best, and have them do a thorough check.

[yotoy82]

Yes, that is what I figured because when I usually take my car to an alignment they usually call back that such and such part is not tight and has to be changed first, but that was another shop, this was a trusted Toyota dealer and its quite possible they just went through the motions.

I'll let the Lexus dealer do the inspection and then get it taken elsewhere for repairs.

My brother has a 95 model and I drove his LS back home last night from the dealer, he just bought a Mazda 3. His LS drove really tight and felt safe, almost felt bitter sweet that we have to let it go now, with all the issues it has still drove amazing.

Thanks for the advice I'll follow back with what was found

[billydpowell]

well guys, I am not to swift at comprehending, but wait until you are over 80, and then we'll see... I just know wisdom is not always packaged the way we think it is...

[yotoy82]

Now boys....I know what Billy is saying and I understand your situation Joseph. I do not take any offense but keep an open mind to suggestions. Sometimes it is worth taking a second look at some area that you are sure is not a problem. Because, after a second look, darn if it is not bad after all. I have had that happen before.

You are right...that not being able to see your car in person, is a big disadvantage for us on the forum. We try to do our best but it is difficult.

I would also not make the assumption that if the linkage were sloppy, the alignment shop (whoever that was) would not have proceeded. I know nothing of this shop but it very possible that they put someone on it who just went thru the 'motions' of alignment.

It would be very much worth it to have Lexus diagnose for $68. They know these cars well but so does a "good" alignment shop. Personally, I would not take my car to the dealer to have an alignment because I know of shops in my area that do nothing but alignments and some are very good. Others, I would not let them touch my car.

Finally, I did not mean to imply that you should NOT pour $$$ into your car. From your first post, it sounded to me as if you were throwing money at this particular problem by blindly changing out parts, which is not really a good idea. On subsequent posts, it sounds like you were just taking care of long standing issues with your car, which is fine.

My advise would be to research alignment shops in your area, find the best, and have them do a thorough check.

Well, pretty much what I figured. Will just state that was surprised by the dealership, they quoted 68 to look at it, didn't charge me anything in the end and I enjoyed the snacks and they even gave it a really good wash and I was out of there from start to finish in one hour.

The technician came out and talked to me. He only drove it 1 mile back and forth and not at any speed so he didn't notice anything test driving it.

Everything else was super tight like I said, nothing was missed, which I knew because I'm not totally silly.

His final call: "Some clicking felt in steering while turning wheel". "Slight play in steering shaft u-joints lower and top"

Said there was play for sure but not a lot. But I don't think there should be any play and this play upon driving especially at higher speeds will become more noticeable. He didn't give me the exact part numbers but the quote said like this below, if someone can guide me to a diagram which parts he was referring to, ie bottom and lower

Steering Lower Joints 309.68

Upper Shaft 737.13

Alignment: 134.95

I'm assuming that is with parts and labor. He said there was literally nothing else left that would be causing the problems and if I really felt there was an issue (which I do), then this is the only thing that would be causing it maybe.

I said I would replace just the bottom one since its the easiest to get to and he was like well, they both had the same amount of play.

Comments on which exact two parts he was referring to? Thanks!

[billydpowell]

Have a look

[yotoy82]

Have a look

Thanks yah, I saw that on the sewell site, just curious about which ones it may be. 45260 and 45209 is what I was guessing, those are the ones?

[billydpowell]

try this: http://www.toyodiy.com/login?from=/parts/g_U_199704_LEXUS_LS400_UCF20L-AEPGKA_2.html

209 is a yoke

210 is main shaft

260 is intermediate shaft

nothing is called a lower shaft or upper shaft, go pin him down

[yotoy82]

try this: http://www.toyodiy.com/login?from=/parts/g_U_199704_LEXUS_LS400_UCF20L-AEPGKA_2.html

209 is a yoke

210 is main shaft

260 is intermediate shaft

nothing is called a lower shaft or upper shaft, go pin him down

Well he is talking about lower joint and upper joint. I believe one joint is in the lower yoke and one is in the shaft

[billydpowell]

ok, as long as you understand, you have no problem.. good luck getting the vibration out of it......

[yotoy82]

Thanks. I just want to know if anyone has experience. The tech said there was "slight play". I want to know if "any play" is abnormal, and could be causing my symptoms of an un-tight steering feel. I spent so much and I would lose my mind if I spent more and this did not fix the situation :-(

The lexus tech didn't seem too experienced, then again it seemed like all the cars they deal with were new cars, most people with high mileage cars don't come into the lexus dealer.

Think I'll take it to a good alignment shop and get their opinion if this could be causing my symptoms etc.. thanks!

[yotoy82]

Its getting worse and very very very sloppy I almost don't feel safe driving it.

I hear this noise, video attached below, when I jiggle the steering wheel. I turned the car off so you could hear it better, and no its not because the steering wheel is locked, cuz its not locked.

It makes the same noise when driving with the car on as well. is there another joint or something right behind the steering wheel?

Video at this link

[yotoy82]

This poor guy needs back on the road

[SRK]

That noise and play is not good, if the wheels were straight ahead when that was video was done.

A car in good alignment and proper suspension geometry will drive vibration free and straight on its own. The driver only modifies that condition with the steering wheel to aim the car.

You've mentioned vibrations - those are not the result of the steering shaft.

Wandering even with that play is largely alignment.

In your video the wheel was off centre. Is the the straight ahead position at this time? I ask because you have had it aligned, and no good shop would leave the wheel off-center.

Find a good alignment shop. Explain simply what the car does, not what you think it is. Demonstrate that wheel play.

That's all you can do yourself, short of being an alignment tech.

And good luck. It has to be something, there is a fault, and the trick is to find a tech that can diagnose it and explain the item(s) that are producing the symptoms.

[landar]

Joseph, the Lex Tech told you that the upper, main shaft, 210 in diagram that Billy showed in post #10, is sloppy. And your latest video confirms that with the clicking near the steering wheel. This main shaft has a U-joint close to the steering wheel so that the wheel can be tilted into different positions and it appears that there is something binding or sloppy with that joint. The evidence is pretty convincing. At a minimum, the shaft needs to be exposed so that you (or someone else) can take a closer look.

[yotoy82]

Well took it to a second Lexus dealer, which was more fancy, pretty girls checking you in before you meet with the service advisor, very nice waiting room, heck they even had a lady giving a massage to someone there, I guess this is common at Lexus dealers, but I hadn't seen it before!

Back to the problem at hand. Went for a drive with the technician. He said yes, the Intermediate steering shaft is making a clicking noise. Said it shouldn't be causing my problems though but says if I want then change the intermediate steering shaft, lower steering joint and do a four wheel alignment.

He says the problem is probably caused by an alignment issue, I said I just had it done at the Toyota dealer. I saw a banner that said free alignment check on the wall, I said well give me that. Turns out there are also alignment issues

It's only been a week, how can the alignment values be so off from a few days when I haven't even driven it that much?

Anyway here are the scans of the alignment sheets. The one with the wheels is the one that was done at the toyota dealership last week and actually aligned. The ones with just the values is from the Lexus dealership alignment "check" only. Can't believe Toyota didn't even show the Caster.

Any opinions what to do now, just do the alignment again or take it back to toyota and complain, the lexus alignment is like 170 for a full four wheel alignment. But if I decide to change the shaft joints it will need an alignment all over again. At this point I'm thinking just to change it all.

[SRK]

The Toyota alignment was quite sloppy. The split caster is not good - should be nearly exactly the same side to side. The camber is nearly maxed out to allowable to positive. I prefer zero camber on the front, especially given the tire width on these cars. You've got some toe out on the rear axle, also not good.

Looking at the ranges Lexus allows, go for the middle of the toe range front and rear, zero camber on the front, half a degree negative on the rear, and get the caster exactly the same left right on the front.

$170 for a good four wheel is not bad. Get Lexus to do it, and the steering shaft.

[yotoy82]

The Toyota alignment was quite sloppy. The split caster is not good - should be nearly exactly the same side to side. The camber is nearly maxed out to allowable to positive. I prefer zero camber on the front, especially given the tire width on these cars. You've got some toe out on the rear axle, also not good.

Looking at the ranges Lexus allows, go for the middle of the toe range front and rear, zero camber on the front, half a degree negative on the rear, and get the caster exactly the same left right on the front.

$170 for a good four wheel is not bad. Get Lexus to do it, and the steering shaft.

Yah, I've come to the conclusion you get what you pay for sometime. I've emailed the Toyota dealer and asked for a refund for the alignment, they are usually pretty good with me when it comes to that. Lets see what they say.

Lexus wants like 1400 for parts, labor, and full 4 wheel alignment for the shaft, joints, etc. I'm significantly debating now throwing more money into my car, if I had known this was going to be an issue I would not have changed all the other parts I changed by now.

Gonna probably buy the parts at Sewell $431 for everything shipped and find an independent place to install it. Then suck it up and go for the Lexus alignment. Thanks everyone.

[SRK]

Sounds like a good plan to me. Good luck with it.

[yotoy82]

Anyone know of a good independent shop that works on Lexus in the Chicago area that doesn't mind me bringing my own parts?

[yotoy82]

Ok. Expensive fix. Got thr parts saved 300 that way. Went for the lexus dealer for install and alignment and what else can I say other than amazing. Nice tight drive!