Loud Wind Noise At Freeway Speed

[bkim004]

My 2010 RX350 is very quite at low speeds below 50 mph. But at 60mph or above, outside wind noise comes through from sides, as if the windows are slightly opened. I can't locate exact location of the source, but it seems like coming though the door panels or the body pillars. Any issues with noise insulation on these cars? (Recalls?) Any tips on how to reduce wind noise? Can my lexus service inspect the car for defect in noise insulation parts? Any advice will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

[1990LS400]

There is a TSIB for the noise which involves installing acoustic glass in the front side windows - see attached.

If your basic warranty has expired, ask that the repair still be covered or at least that Lexus picks up most of the tab for the repair.

Noise might be reduced further by removing the roof rails - Lexus has a kit for doing that.

TSIB - 2010 RX Wind Noise from Front Side Glass.pdf

[bkim004]

To 1990LS400,

Thank you so very much for your reply, providing the TSIB info.

I feel this TSIB applies to my car, but unfortunately my car is 10 month past 4 year warranty period.

How do I get them to do this repair for little or no charge to me? If a nearby Lexus dealer refuse to provide repair, do I ask at another Lexus for different response? If Lexus won't do it, is it better to go to INDY cheaper costs?

Thank you in advance for your help.

Bkim004

[1990LS400]

First contact the dealer. 10 months out of warranty is nothing. If the dealer balks, contact Lexus customer service. Repeat the procedure as necessary. Do not give up!

[1990LS400]

I forgot to mention that, if you have documentation that if a complaint about the wind noise was made to a Lexus dealer while the vehicle was still under warranty, then you are "golden". Under these circumstances the repair will be performed with no questions asked.

[bkim004]

Great Post again.... 1990LS400. Thank You.

I do not have documentation of any complaint made to Lexus previously, but I do recall asking a service agent about the noise right after I bought the car. At the time this TSIB wasn't issued, so the agent to me the was normal as comparable to other same RX350 in the lot. Of course, the noise level same in the other car, because it was similarly loud due to this defect.

I will find out soon if they will honor this service recall.

Thanks again.

[1990LS400]

You get bonus points for owning the vehicle while it was under the basic warranty and more if you bought it new. Being told that "they all are noisy" before the TSIB was issued is an excellent argument.

Something I did before the basic warranties expired on both my LS400's was to review all TSIB's that had been issued for them. If I had had a TSIB on the trip computer in my 2000 LS400 applied in 2004, I probably wouldn't be dealing with a speedometer issue now. I thought the occasional trip computer issue was too minor to deal with the inconvenience of having my car out of service for a week but my view now is to have all TSIB's applied no matter what.

[bkim004]

1990LS400,

Can you explain the bonus points? I bought my 2010 RX350 in 3/09, brand new. The TSIB release date is 2/10, and my VIN number precedes production change effective VIN. More bonus points, the better? Too bad I never took the time to read any service notice from Lexus. I know now, however. One last question, 1900LS400, regarding the kit for removing the roof railing that you mentioned, is it something that I buy at the Lexus, or have them do it for me?

Thanks and merry christmas.

Bkim004

[1990LS400]

Those were fictitious bonus points I was referring to except that my perception is that Lexus is more likely to extend a warranty in a situation like this if the owner owned the vehicle while under warranty and more so if the owner purchased the vehicle new. It has also seemed that some car dealers - not just Lexus - are more willing to go to bat for an owner if the vehicle was purchased and serviced at their dealership. It's largely about relationships. If you are on a first name basis with people at the Lexus dealership you may be treated better.

The TSIB was not a safety recall so you would not have received a notice about the noise issue. Issues like this are rectified only when an owner complains.

You can buy the roof rail removal kit at any Lexus dealer - register with your forum member name on the following Sewell Lexus website and maybe get a discount: http://lexus.sewellparts.com/accessories-catalog/Exterior/RX350-2010/4608.html Or tell your local dealer that you will have them install the roof rack removal kit after they apply the noise TSIB at no cost!

There seems to be a market for the roof rails if you want to sell them after they are removed.

[bkim004]

Thanks for the link for roof railing removal kit. I will purchase it soon.

Today, I went to the Lexus and talked to one of their service rep.

With a printed copy of TSIB in my hand, I told him my story about my having discussed the noise issue with a rep, who dismissed my complaint as non-issue, few months prior to the release of this TSIB. He checked my VIN and confirmed my car was produced prior to the production changes VIN.

He set me up with an appointment on next Monday to perform a test drive inspection to see if my car has the same noise problem as described in the TSIB. (I hope there won't be a traffic jam on freeway during the test drive, because the noise is very noticeable at above 70 mph.)

He made no comment about my warranty being expired, so I am assuming they will perform neccessary repair service stated in TSIB if needed, at no cost to me. I have long history of owning Lexus.... ES300, LX450, and this RX350. I have strong feeling they will take care of this for me, for all the points I have with them.

Will update you after inspection....

Thanks

Bkim004

[pj8708]

Hi Brian and welcome to the Club.

Here is a link to the Lexus Corp. Customer Service number and numbers for other major departments.

Stick with Jim's advice and I think you'll have a good shot at resolving your problem.

Paul

http://www.lexus.com/contact/index.html

[bkim004]

1990LS400 and Paul,

Thanks for the follow up info.

On Monday, I went to Lexus for drive inspection appt, only to find out TSIB is only valid for the cars under the basic warranty. (its 10 months past 4 years, and has 90K miles) So the service rep flat out told me this repair, if needed, would be at my expense. He gave me a written estimate of $1053 for the part cost plus $452 for 2hrs of labor...total estimate of $1505 to replace 2 front door glasses!! This estimate seems little high since online Lexus dealers have it at $315 plus tax and shipping for each one. And TSIB says warranty repair is rated at 0.8 hrs of labor, instead of 2hrs, for the repair of both windows. Quick calculation comes to a total repair bill, a little above 900. My story about being advised by service rep right after I bought the car, that the excessive wind noise is normal for this car, didn't register with the rep I was talking to. He did agree that my best bet is to contact Lexus corp for free repair with the expired warranty.

Do you advise that I call the Lexus headquaters, instead of sending an email?

Am I wasting my time if TSIB clearly states that repair applies to cars under the basic warranty?

(I am thinking of just getting new or used updated door glasses and having it installed at local body shop, if I am beating my head against a rock wall)

My beef with Lexus is that something like this where they had to make a production change to install to dual pane acoustic glass to reduces the noise, should be a recall item to be a covered service repair, regardless of warranty status.

Having been told previously by a rep that nothing can be done about the noise, I had no reason to inquire about the same noise problem again during the time that I was still under the warranty. Since TSIB says to address this wind noise issue, only if a customer makes a complaint about the noise, I did not get a fair opportunity get this free repair. Do you guys agree with me that I have a reasonable argument to make a complaint to Lexus corp?

Sorry about the long read..guys. But I had to get it off of my chest. Thank you once again, and I want to express my appreciation in advance for your advises.

Brian.

[1990LS400]

OK, we have new information here. Your RX isn't just 10 months out of basic warranty but is also 40,000 miles out of the basic warranty.

My opinion is that you would be in a far stronger position if your mileage was still under the 50,000 mile cap of the basic warranty or if your car had been driven at or under the 12,500 mile annual rate considered "normal" under the basic warranty.

I think the best outcome you could get would be for Lexus corporate to pay for the parts and for you to pay for the labor. And that may be a stretch. If they don't go for that and you really want this fixed, ask that they pay half of the part cost ,,,, or to provide the parts at wholesale ... etc., etc.

It's up to you whether or not you want to pursue this. I suggest that you both write a letter and call Lexus customer support if you do.

At least this is a lesson learned.

This reminds me that I need to start checking the TSIB's on the Prius v van/wagon we bought in August 2012.

Good luck with your quest.

[pj8708]

Hi guys.

I'm puzzeled. When the TSIB was issued for this problem did Lexus send a notice to every owner of an affected automoble, or was it the duty of the owner to find out on their own?

Since when does a design/manufacturing defect become the responsibility of the owner after some magical date. Does that mean that the floor mat - accelerator recall suddenly became less deadly because someone said "Sorry. Times up. Good luck."?

Paul

[1990LS400]

Hi guys.

I'm puzzeled. When the TSIB was issued for this problem did Lexus send a notice to every owner of an affected automoble, or was it the duty of the owner to find out on their own?

Since when does a design/manufacturing defect become the responsibility of the owner after some magical date. Does that mean that the floor mat - accelerator recall suddenly became less deadly because someone said "Sorry. Times up. Good luck."?

Paul

Paul, TSIB's are not safety recalls. Owners are not notified of TSIB's - they are implemented only if an owner complains about a problem.

You might want to check to see what if any TSIB's have been issued for your ES and RX.

IMO, one can't rely on a Lexus dealer to disclose outstanding TSIB's even though they stand to make money in applying them. The only reliable way I know to check them is to occasionally get a short term subscription to techinfo.Toyota.com

[pj8708]

I put in a call to my contacts in service and admin. at my dealer late this PM. I'll talk with them tomorrow. What I'm trying to accomplish is constucting a path of resolution. I already knew this TSIB was not a "do it or die"!! problem, and I used a unrelated example for comparison. My error.

Call me crazy, but when I pay $51,000 for a new RX (yes, I know this is not what Brian paid) I sure as hell don't expect the company decision makers to sit back at lunch and say "Well lets just skate on this noise thing. Unless an owner complains, we'll just let the mistake remain an internal secret. Hell they'll never know"!!

Now if you have chosen your answer to be, "yes your crazy.", then why does a problem like this suddenly go away when the car's warranty expires? Lexus says "It was a problem once you decided to tell us about it, but your auto just turned a mile over the warranty limit when you drove into the service bay. That means it is not a problem anymore as far as Lexus is concerned. Now, If YOU think it's a problem you'll have to pay for fixing the problem we continue to tell you dosen't exist!"

As you can tell,I have no strong feelings about this post.

Paul

[bkim004]

Hey Paul A.

I agree with everything you said.

1. If they did not think the window noise was due to a flawed design in production, they would not have made the production change, only few month after release of new model.

2. It's obvious that Lexus decided to keep quiet about TSIB repair available to customer to save money. For the customers that don't know any better to complain about the noise, why bother to fix it for them, right?

3. And to limit the repair to valid warranty period, so they can wipe this off the table once these cars hit 4 years on the road? That is truly uncool corporate decision, in my opinion.

4. As far as the excess miles on my car, what difference does it make? The identified defect was there from the factory, and unless they can prove to me window glasses naturally becomes noisier over time, they should honor the promise to replace the windows if they can identify the source of the problem to window glasses, all clearly stated in TSIB.

I am going to write to Lexus explaining the situation and ask for free repair.

I can afford to pay for the repair myself, but I am !Removed! that I had to endure the excessive wind noise for the last 4 years, because Lexus decided not to tell me that my windows needed a free repair service.

thanks, I will report back with what I get from the Lexus corporate.

[1990LS400]

The Toyota Motor Company and it's Lexus and other subsidiaries do not handle issues like this any differently than other auto companies do.

The noise level was apparently not bad enough to keep you and many other people from buying the RX or to keep many people from buying the early LS460 which had similar noise around the front windows. Some people are more sensitive to this type of noise than others are. The noise level didn't keep the OP from driving his RX for 90,000 miles or cause him to sell his RX.

Toyota/Lexus had a program to address these issues if people complained before their basic warranties ended. That's great but they had no legal liabiltity to address what I would call "buyer's regret".

How much noise is a "flaw"? I thought the Mercedes Diesel sedan I bought new was way too noisy but I certainly didn't expect the automaker to make it quieter after I bought it. I thought the outside mirrors of my current LS400 caused excessive wind noise when I bought it used while it was still well within the basic warranty but that didn't keep me from buying the car or driving it 140,000 miles.

Auto companies learn from experience just like people do. You may notice that many vehicles made by Toyota now come with accoustic windshields and front side glass as standard equipement.

Now that you understand how the "game" works, learn to play it.

[pj8708]

A couple of things. In following that logic, if EVERYONE was cheating their employer by sneaking a Lexus home every week from the factory where they worked, then it wouldn't be stealing anymore since it was "acceptable behavior" again, because Everybody did it.

Obviosly, my point is if this is the way that indeed the "game" is played, it does not obviate the players who make up the rules from bending the rules to their advantage and arbitrarly determining when and who the rule makers will provide a remedy.

It may be that in fact, because of the parameters Lexus has apparently set for this problem, your out of luck in terms of getting the problem taken care of. However, as Jim says, just play the game and learn from the experiance.

It still dosen't mean it's right.

Paul

[bkim004]

Both of you make good sense. It is a game that is played by all car makers, and now I know keep my eyes open for.

This discussion with you guys, Jim and Paul, has helped me to reach the following conclusion.

I am going to write a letter to Lexus emphasizing that my complaint about the noise was made too early before the TSIB was placed in effect for me to receive the correction. If the rep that I had talked to was keen enough to contact me when the TSIB was released, as he should have since the TSIB is specific about being applicable to customers who made complaints about the noise problem, everything would have been fine.

This way I am not challenging their policy on TSIB, but instead I am requesting a correction of rather a minor negligence or error made by an employee, which they do everyday. I am providing a loophole for them to use, instead of violating the own policy, to help me out. Smart? I am learning to play their game, fast. Haha..

Thank you both. Will update.

[bkim004]

Hi guys,

let me update what has been happening.

After I sent them an email, explaining the situations with my Lexus, being out of warranty, not being able to obtain warranty replacement window from dealership, I received a reply saying they want to have vehicle and owner information to do an investigation regarding my situation and that they will forward my inquiry to proper dept. who may be of help. so the following is my reply to their request for detailed info.

.......................................................................................................

Thanks for responding to my inquiry.

The 2010 RX350 VIN is 2T2ZK1BA5AC001452

My Name is ............, and my wife's name whose name the car is registered under is ...............

Address is ...................................... Rancho Cucamonga, CA 91739

Contact phone number is cell .................and daytime office phone ..........................

Quick additional info..... I have owned ES300 and LX450 previously, and because I had such good experience with them, I bought this RX350, which was newly upgraded model , without even a test drive. So, when I bought the car, I was surprised how noisy the car was in the freeway and I asked the service rep about the wind noise at the first visit to the dealership. He told me all the new RXs are a bit noisy at high speed because it is SUV and that I should not expect same quiet interior as my more expensive LX450 I had driven previously. After hearing this answer, I resigned myself to accept the noise for buying a 'cheaper' Lexus. However, when I found out that there had been a TSIB released regarding this issue for last 4 years, I thought to myself, I will finally get rid of the noise problem that had been bothering me for the past 4 years. However, I also found out at the dealership that I am not eligible for the TSIB repair because my warranty had expired.

Since I was told by a service rep previously that my car was normal, and since there were no notice sent out to me regarding the TSIB, I feel it is unfair for me pay for the same warranty repair that I had no chance to get.

I don't understand the reasoning for this repair not being covered past the warranty period, because the issue is with the type of glass that was used in my car, which is single pane glass as opposed to dual pane acoustic glass that the factory later started installing in the same 2010 year model to correct the problem. If the glass wears out or gets thinner to transmit more noise after being on the road for so many years, I could understand the reasoning for not being covered past the warranty period. However, in my case, it is known that the insufficient glass was there from the beginning and throughout the whole time the my warranty was in effect. Just because I have brought it to attention now versus a year ago, should not affect the Lexus's decision to replace the glass to the customers who feels there is excessive wind noise in the car.

I am sorry to be repeating same point over and over, but I am just trying to make my appeal a little stronger.

I thank you in advance for forwarding my problem to the people who may be able to resolve this matter.

Sincerely,

And today I received this response from Lexus.

.....................................................................

Thank you for contacting Lexus Customer Satisfaction. Your concern is important to Lexus, and we appreciate the time you have taken to email us.

Thank you for providing the requested information. Upon further research, we do not see a recent visit to a Lexus dealership for your vehicle concerns. If you are seeking our assistance to look into your concerns further, we need a diagnosis from the Lexus dealership so that we may better understand your vehicle concerns.

Once the physical inspection has taken place, should you require further assistance, please contact us at the toll free phone number listed below. We cannot guarantee any financial assistance, but we can certainly discuss your concerns by phone. We have documented your concerns at our National Headquarters. We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause you.

If you require further assistance, please respond to this e-mail, or contact Lexus Customer Satisfaction at 1-800-255-3987, Monday through Friday, 5:00 am to 6:00 pm, or Saturday, 7:00 am to 4:00 pm, Pacific Time.

Sincerely,

Michelle Christensen

Lexus Customer Satisfaction

.............................................................................................................

My question to you guys.......

1. Are they saying, if I have the service dept produce a diagnosis that indeed my car has noise issue that is as described in their TSIB, they will likely cover or "provide financial assistance" to resolve the matter?

2. If I ask the service rep to give me an assurance that he will back me up, since I am going to pay $150 for the inspection, is there any possibility he may feel offended by my insistence? After all, even if they give me the right diagnosis that paid him 150 to get, there is no guarantee that Lexus will authorize the dealership to do a warranty service for me, right? Besides, is there any reason why they wouldn't cooperate with my request, since the repair is coming out of Lexus' pocket, not the dealer's?

3. I found one used window glass from an auto salvage for $120, and another new oem glass for $310. Do you recommend that I have the windows replaced at dealership or through INDY body shop? Am I correct in believing that dealership would not do repair using outside parts?

What do you think I should do? Spend $150 and hope that Lexus will authorize a repair and give me back my $150? Or don't bother with spending time and money with Lexus, or go ahead and just replace my windows with oem parts myself?

Again, sorry for the long read, and thanks in advance for your opinion.

Brian.

[1990LS400]

Demonstrate your sincerity by paying the $150 to get the inspection done. Do you really care if you get the $150 back? I'll bet that you have spent that much on a restaurant meal for two.

Let the dealer be entirely responsible for replacing your current glass with the correct OEM acoustic glass and providing a warranty on the replacement.

I suggest that you verify that the correct replacement part numbers are used since there are different parts depending on which factory assembled your RX. If the acoustic glass is installed under the TSIB, then it must be brand new OEM Toyota/Lexus glass with the Toyota or Lexus name and/or logo on it. If you have the glass breakage sensor, verify that the relevant instructions about it are followed.

Your Lexus dealer may have its mechanics replace the glass or subcontract it out. Maybe the Lexus dealer has a body shop like the one here.

You might want to start "managing your expectations" on how much reduction in noise the new glass will provide. As the TSIB says, the acoustic glass improves the noise problem. It will not eliminate all the noise. I've driven a variety of RX models over the years as "loaners" and I've always thought that they were fairly noisy vehicles - nothing like the quiet of my LS cars.

[bkim004]

Thanks 1990LS400,

You have a point about showing my sincerity by putting up $150 for inspection.

From reading the Lexus response asking for a inspection , am I correct in thinking there is good chance Lexus will take care of the repair bill, if indeed the inspection finds that my window glasses are causing the noise?

I would hate to have spent this money only to find out that, even after the inspection result confirms the issue with the noisy window glasses, Lexus won't do anything other than to offer me a polite apology saying they can't help me due to the warranty period being expired.

What do you think about me asking them for an assurance that they will provide me with some "financial assistance" if the inspection results confirm my issue with the windows? ...........Don't even try because they won't give pre-approval?

I guess this is my learning curve, finding out how to play their game.

Oh, my expectations are not unrealistic..... I would be happy to be hearing same level of wind noise coming through the front door windows asthe rear door windows. I don't check constantly if the window is up all the way, sitting in the rear passenger seat, as I do sitting in the front seat, left and right.

Thanks again.

Brian

[1990LS400]

Forget about "asking for assurance"! You are being given an opening. Damn! I'm just about ready to send you the $150. :chairshot:

[Demp223]

Just to verify, the glass does not wear out or get thinner over time.

Glass is not like a tire that wears with use. The rubber channel the glass is in does shrink and become brittle over the yrs but usually a decade before any noticeable issue if never protected with a preservative. If the glass isn't adjusted properly you may have an issue but a simple examination of its alignment to rubber channel only takes a minute to verify.

The noise issue as with so many cars is primarily from the side view mirrors disrupting air as it passes around car creating vortex that buffets glass. The higher end flagship cars usually get some air wings on them to help control the aerodynamics of the mirror.