2011 Ls460 Awd - Low Speed Vibration (?)

[JHR's LS 460]

Hello All:

I am a, "NEWBIE", to the site and was curious with this topic. I have a 2011 LS460 AWD, Manufactured Feb.'11 and purchased Apr.'11. My LS currently has 7980 miles, standard Wheels, with Bridgestone Turanza EL42 P235/50R18 97V tires.

At about 4000 miles I noticed that there seemed to be a slight vibration when the car was cold the first few miles of driving. I took my LS to the dealer for inspection and was told that the car was heavy and when the tires were cold, such as sitting overnight the tires developed slight flat spots that go away after a few miles of driving. That seemed to be the case and I was satisfied with the explanation.

When I reached about 7500 miles I still was feeling a slight vibration but became noticeable at 38 to 43 MPH, and much after 45 MPH not noticeable at all. You could feel it in the steering wheel and if you put your palm on the center console or on the passenger headrest. I drove my LS on a lot of different road surfaces and was fairly confident it was not my imagination.

I made an appointment and took my LS to the dealer with 7700 miles on early Jan.'12. After inspection they decided there was a, "Belt Shift", in the left rear tire and replaced it. It was difficult for the dealer to test drive the LS for any length of time at the speeds of 38-43 45 MPH because of traffic. I took the car home and thought I still was feeling a slight shutter and vibration. I made another appointment and returned to the dealer 5 days later with 7800 miles on my LS. The dealer had me ride with the mechanic and I could feel a bit of a shutter vibration with the mechanic driving but was difficult to keep driving at a consistent speed. They replaced the right rear tire because of a, "Belt Shift", as a, "GOODWILL WARRANTY".

I took my LS home and in the last week have put about 150 miles on it. Although the vibration and or shutter I am feeling seems to have definitely lessened I am not convinced that it is gone completely.

Well, that's my story and I would appreciate any comments or suggestions.

[pj8708]

Hello John and welcome to the Lexus Owners Club.

I found this thread while doing a search of our data base re; your problem. I have no idea if this is the reason your having this issue, but to me at least it does sound like a tire issue. I don't know of any current vibration service bulletins for late model LS460, and there were no mentions in the database. Let us know what you finaly come up with.

"Michelin Primacy is an excellent choice for the ES350. Surprisingly enough, The B/S Turanza EL400 is the tire we use on the LS460 because of it's extremely low Road Force Variation. The 460's smooth suspension will detect anything above 10lb.s of RFV and become a slight vibration at highway speeds similar to a wheel balance concern. Go figure. Everyone's different, I guess."

"Oh God, my Dad had a 98 LS400 and an 04 LS430, you are totally right...the slightest little but out of balance and you could definitely feel it. He had a set of Dunlops on the 400 one time he had to have rebalanced once a month. The ES is picky too, but not as bad."...

(search under LS460-vibration)

Paul

[JHR's LS 460]

Thanks Paul:

Did an interesting test; Had a friend drive my car over various roads with me as a passenger. Kept my eyes tightly closed and wore BOSE noise canceling headphones and listened to music so I could not, "HEAR", the road . While he was accelerating and slowing down, I was able to tell him EACH and EVERY time he was driving between about 38 to 44 MPH as I could feel a definite vibration.

We are having a fairly good snow event right now. Next week I am going to call the dealer and once again, bring my LS in for another look.

Again, thanks for your research, time and effort. I will let you know what happens after my call and visit!

Regards,

JHR

[Ed Darte]

Check out this post of mine on another site.

http://www.clublexus.com/forums/ls460-ls460l-and-ls600h/578750-closing-the-loop-on-my-2009-awd-transmission-problem.html

regards,

Ed

[PA460AWD]

I have the same issue with my 2011 AWD LS 460. It is really annoying especially in the "flagship" of the Lexus fleet, I have leased 4 GS's in the last 12 years and have not experienced anything like this.

It has been back twice for tire balancing, but it has not helped. It started off being especially noticeable between 38-40. Now it seems to be spreading out to a wider range 36-42 mph.

My dealership took wheels off a brand new LS and tested my car, no improvement. They tested both the Bridgestone tires that came on my car as well as a set of Dunlops that were on another car.

I have driven two brand news 2011 LS AWD's as well as a 2012 AWD that were all untitled and still on the dealers lot and all of them have the same vibration issue as my car.

Finally my dealer called in the regional Lexus technician who examined my car. But they did not tell me what he found or reported. I am very discouraged because Lexus has not acknowledged this is an issue, therefore there is no fix in the works yet. But I believe this to be a real flaw in the late model LS AWD vehicles.

[edendw]

Hi,

You've touched a sore spot with me! I have a similar problem with my 2010 LS-460 long-body AWD. I have owned 4-6 LS models prior to this, including 2 of the current generation (LS-460). My previous LS-460 did not have the AWD and I had no problems with it.

My car shudders, usually in the 35-40 mph range. I cannot recall what the RPM readings are when the problem occurs, but the car is usually under slight duress, going up a slight incline, with constant (or near constant) pedal pressure.

Under these circumstances, the car shudders, or shimmies -- almost as if it is going over a slight washboard-shaped area of the road. It is my opinion that it is due to the All-Wheel Drive, but I am not certain.

It is very annoying and is unacceptable in a car of this calibre. I've brought it to the attention of the dealer and they could not replicate the problem. My sales representative, who I have gotten to know pretty well over the past 2 years, told me that he has heard of only one other complaint that is at all similar to mine.

But coming from an LS-460 that had no such problem, my current problem stands-out considerably.

Tire rotation has not helped. That's all that I have tried, as I am convinced that it is a problem within the drivetrain, other than the tires.

Dave Eden

Crownsville, MD

Direct Email: edendw@aol.com

[SW03ES]

Sorry to come so late to this, but its the tires IMHO. Every set of Bridgestone tires I've had flat-spotted over time, generally getting to where there would be a weird ghostly vibration at certain speeds.

I would have the tires road-force balanced and see if that helps, if it doesn't I would replace the tires with Michelins and I'd bet money the issue will be gone. They don't make the Primacy MXV4 in that size unfortunately...

[NJTAZ]

Also a new owner of my first Lexus. Up until reading this post I thought that the vibration may have been caused by the addition of new aftermarket chrome wheels? Thanks for the insight. I'll make sure to mention it on my next service appointment.

[SW03ES]

It still could be...

[Ed Darte]

It still could be...

Trust me - it is probably not the tires. I wish it were that easy to solve. In my case (2009 LS 460 AWD) they switched tires, ECU, transmission, torque converter and nothing worked. After much negotiating with Lexus they did a buy back (which my dealer told me is rare). I thoroughly road tested a new 2011 LS460 AWD to make sure it did not also have the problem and I could not detect anything so I bought it. However around 6000 miles the problem has now resurfaced.

I am convinced it is an AWD/8 speed complexity issue. I think it is revealing that Lexus did not put the 8 speed in the new GS and I am waiting to see what they put in the next LS model change in 2013.

[bc062875]

same vibration problem on my 2011 LS. same speed about 38 mph. been to the dealer 3 times for various unsuccessful fixes. Very annoying on a model like this. Was recentlly told by my local service advisor that they and Lexus are aware of the problem and a fix is being researched by Lexus engineers-but no date yet. keep posting and maybe it will light a fire under somebody. P.S. Its NOT tires.

[SW03ES]

Have you had the wheels/tires road force balanced? My dealer doesn't have a road force balancer.

I would take it to a shop that does and have it done, costs about $100.

Just because the dealer hasn't been able to balance them doesn't mean they aren't out of balance. You may have a bent wheel or something they wouldn't be able to detect without a road force balancer.

Is your LS the AWD as well bc?

[NJTAZ]

"Is your LS the AWD as well bc?"

I was thinking that it could be an AWD drive related issue after noticing that those posting all seem to have the same AWD LS model.

[andiamo918]

Hi John and Group, it was very interesting to read about your vibration. I just bought a 2011 ls460 awd swb, built 6/2011. I have exactly the same symptoms. My car has a vibration at 35 and 42 mph at around 1,000 to 1,2000 rpms. I also feel the vibration about 70 mph at 1,900 rpms. I did go back to the dealer were I bought the car, there is a software update for the transmission update# EG1206. This was done on my car last week. Sadly the car still vibrates. I have an appointment to drop the car off at dealer again this coming Wed. This car was sold new in July 2011 to another customer who returned it to the dealer on or about Jan 2012. The Salesman told me the customer fell in love with another car and just had to have the other car??? I know suspect the car was returned due to the vibration. I wanted to let you know incase you have not already found out there is now an LSB. It would be great to know if you have had your software updated and if it helped. I have no Idea what my dealer will do since the software update did not help?

Any other club members have this problem and or found a solution I would love to hear about it. Thank You

.

[NJTAZ]

I just had my 5K service appointment yesterday. I mentioned the vibration to my service writer who at first said he had heard nothing about any vibration related to the AWD....but then he checked his computer for service bulletins. VIOLA!!! There is a indeed an issue with the fix being related to the engine computer.

[andiamo918]

NJTAZ Did you have the fix done? Is your vibration gone? I have an appointment tomorrow to have my car checked out again. The vibration in my car has been getting worse. Hope to find a fix that works.

[NJTAZ]

Yes Mike I had them do the fix. And I haven't noticed any vibration as of yet. Sorry I didn't get back to post sooner. Hopefully you had them do it?

[andiamo918]

Thanks William. I did have the update. Sadly I still felt the vibration. The Service manager kept my car overnight. He is going to drive it for a while and give me his opinion. I sure hope to get this resolved. 70k is a lot of money for a car with a persistent vibration (or may be better discribed as an engine or tranny shutter. I will post after talking to dealer tommorow. Please let me know if your vibration remains at bay.

[NJTAZ]

Sorry to hear that the update didn't provide a cure. And I couldn't agree with you more about the money spent on expectations here. Hopefully your Service Manager comes up with something good for you. Starting my first vacation over 7 years next weekend, I'll be driving mine from to New Mexico to New Jersey, New Jersey to Virginia and then back to New Mexico. That should give mine a pretty good workout. Going to start out the trip with 3,500 miles. I'll post the results after I get back. Best of luck to you and yours!

[andiamo918]

Thanks William, have a great vacation. Let me know how it goes. No news from my dealer yet. Talk to you soon.

[Jeff in TX]

Because of my special interest in the "Wind Noise" issue I have followed this forum and several others closely for the past several years. The "odd vibration" issue has come up many times. When you look at the reports of successful resolution, or lack of resolution, you will see that generally this problem is not understood. There are reports of complete replacement of transmission/drive shaft, all tires/wheels and all manner of other things with the vibration continuing. You will see it described as "cyclic" and often not demonstrable on cue. There are reports of "buybacks" under state Lemon Laws. It is not a regular mystery - it is a mysterious mystery. Much like the wind noise, many of the dealerships and Lexus try to make it seem to be subjective.

One of the posts that caught my interest regarded a part of a TSB that stiffened the satellite antenna-mounting to reduce vibrations related to resonance or wind oscillations. Most people refuse this because it involves removal of the headliner. I've never seen a report as to the effectiveness of this TSB. Here is a link to it in the Lambros data base: http://www.lambros.n...-SB-0147-08.pdf

For those of you who might be desperate and willing to try almost anything, here is something that can be done with little effort or cost.

Take a lump of modeling clay, about grapefruit size, and shape it into a ball and press it over the shark-fin antenna. It will probably stay in place for a test drive, but if it won't stay then secure it with some of the ubiquitous 2"-wide clear packaging tape. A variation on that would be to fill a zip-lock bag with sand - use several bags so as not to scratch your car - and secure it with packaging tape.

The mass on the antenna will do two things: it will affect the resonance and it will alter the air flow, in case it is wind induced oscillation.

[NJTAZ]

Thanks Jeff for your post. The vibration I had was at parking lot speeds and up to perhaps 35mph. And though I can see how aerodynamics could play a role or even be the sole cause of a vibration, I don't think that is the problem with any of the low speed vibration issues. In order for the satellite antenna to be the cause of vibration in a 4,600 lb. heavy car at low speed (under 35mph) it would have to be enormous to have such an effect.

Wouldn't the cause of a "low speed" vibration on such a heavy vehicle require a mass in motion at a high rpm?

[Jeff in TX]

William,

I’m with you. I think the satellite antenna having anything to do with the mysterious vibration is pretty remote.

However, that idea came from Lexus – see the cited TSB. Generally, engineering organizations are very structured and something like that TSB would have almost certainly been based on some test data. It calls for rather radical “surgery” on the affected cars and the potential is high that something like that would not go well. So, I don’t think they would issue such a corrective action unless the management had been convinced of its validity and they would not have been convinced without test data.

Although the speed cited in the TSB is 55-65 MPH there is no indication of the test conditions. Was that sensitivity speed range determined on a dynamometer or a wind tunnel? Was the vibration a resonance effect or an aerodynamic effect?

I suspect that the test was done on a test track, at some nominal temperature range, when the wind was calm. That is the usual way those sorts of test are done because of the expense of other types of testing.

If the vibration was due to a resonance effect then the wind conditions are not too important. However if the vibration was due to some aerodynamic phenomena you have to keep in mind that driving a car directly into a 40 MPH headwind at 20 MPH is nearly equivalent to driving a car at 60 MPH on a calm day. And, if there is some sort of aerodynamic thing going on it may be extremely sensitive to different wind vectors.

I would certainly be surprised if the antenna was a part of this problem, but the possibilities, or at least those that can be addressed, seem to be running out.

[andiamo918]

The dealer has replaced the drive shaft in my 2011 ls460. I am certainly not sure but it may have fixed the vibration. Time will tell.

[Ed Darte]

NJTAZ or anyone else please provide the Lexus TSB number for this recent computer fix as I am very interested in finding out if it will fix my 2011 LS AWD.

I am one of the few people that got lexus to do a buy-back for this problem with my 2009 AWD. Now my replacement 2011 is showing the same symptoms. They replaced the ECU and the transmission on the 2009 with no improvement but I always felt it had to be computer/ECU related.

In my case I spent a lot of time paying attention to what situations caused the problem and it always occurred under light acceleration, slightly uphill, at speeds around 40 -50 MPH. I was able to reproduce the problem on cue and this convinced the Lexus tech rep that it was real. He said "If this were my car I would be very disappointed and want it corrected"