Hybrid Engine Longevity (constant Start/stop)

[vinovelo]

Hi all,

I am a prospecive buyer (waiting to see what the 08's bring) and am

wondering about the 400's drivetrain longevity. (for all hybrids).

Most engine wear occurs at a cold dry start. With the ICE starting and

stopping I am wondering if there will be an increased wear factor with

oil pressure constantly falling off when the ICE cuts out and then restarts.

Is there anything about the ICE's lubrication system that is different

to prevent this?

Thanks,

/Steve

[RX400h]

This is one of the reasons why a plug-in hybrid is a bad idea. Can you imagine driving 10 miles before the ICE comes to life? Heavy sludge as oil would be inevitable. The engine really needs to stay somewhat warm/hot to keep the oil flowing readily and to burn off" water in the oil. You are correct in that most engine wear occurs during a cold startup. Keeping the oil warm enough is Toyota's key tool for ensuring that its engines have a long life. The other thing that helps in this regard is the low-rpm running of the engine, due to electric motor assistance. There is no need to "race" the ICE to extract passing power.

Dave

[Rx330driver]

dont worry, your thinking of buying an 2008 vehicle, in the 21st century, not the first automobile ever made. lol

[silvercorvette]

I was more worried about the starter when I got the car, but I got the car anyway because the car is a three year lease and I was already looking forward to getting rid of the car and getting a new one in three years and I felt if there was a problem in the future it would be after Lexus reclaimed position of the car. I discovered that my concern was groundless after I got the car. When I got the owners manual I discovered that lexus doesn't use a regular starting system and there is no reason to worry that the started will wear out from all the starting and stopping

[richard4u]

I was more worried about the starter when I got the car, but I got the car anyway because the car is a three year lease and I was already looking forward to getting rid of the car and getting a new one in three years and I felt if there was a problem in the future it would be after Lexus reclaimed position of the car. I discovered that my concern was groundless after I got the car. When I got the owners manual I discovered that lexus doesn't use a regular starting system and there is no reason to worry that the started will wear out from all the starting and stopping

how does the starting system work ??? just got mine in april o7 so far it is great on a 3 year lease

[silvercorvette]

I was more worried about the starter when I got the car, but I got the car anyway because the car is a three year lease and I was already looking forward to getting rid of the car and getting a new one in three years and I felt if there was a problem in the future it would be after Lexus reclaimed position of the car. I discovered that my concern was groundless after I got the car. When I got the owners manual I discovered that lexus doesn't use a regular starting system and there is no reason to worry that the started will wear out from all the starting and stopping

how does the starting system work ??? just got mine in april o7 so far it is great on a 3 year lease

It is too complicated to explain but Toyota Lexus has some sites that explain it well

http://www.hybridsynergydrive.com/en/ecu.html

Check this out also

http://www.lexus.com/hybriddrive/dual_power.html

I can't find the link that explains how the electric motor turns into a started but I will look further if I get the time

[katzjamr]

if you listen to the 400h humming just before it starts the engine that noise is the electric 'starter' spinning inside the engine at 1000 rpm or so. that prelubes the engine just before the constant starts.

i too had initial concerns about the frequent ICE start and stop however the system has been very reliable. i do change the oil and filter more frequently than 5K, more like every 2500 miles, its just a personal thing, and my lexus service manager has develeoped a 70.00 oil change fee for me because i do it more frequently.

[SOMEONE ELSE'S GOT MY NAME]

This is one of the reasons why a plug-in hybrid is a bad idea. Can you imagine driving 10 miles before the ICE comes to life? Heavy sludge as oil would be inevitable.

. . . . . . . . . .

Dave

Doesn't matter . . . whether you drive 10, 20, or 50 miles prior to ICE fireing off. As soon as the vehicle hits appx 31mph, the electric motor 'spins-up' up the ICE, to a matching speed, so that when the ICE finally does fire off (which will always happen by 41mph on flat ground - no head wind) - the ICE, though not yet burning any gas, will be sufficiently lubricated.

Gotta give those toyota engineers credit ... they thought of everything ;)

[RX400h]

It's not that part of the infrequent startups I'd worry about - it's the inability of the oil to rid itself of moisture. It really needs to heat up to somewhere around 200 degrees F. If the ICE started and ran for only a few minutes and on a regular basis, sludge would form, inevitably. This why I believe that people who advocate converting a Prius to a plug-in vehicle aren't thinking it through, completely. Not only will batteries need to be replaced more often (unless more batteries are added), but oil issues are bound to surface for some people.

Dave

[silvercorvette]

It's not that part of the infrequent startups I'd worry about - it's the inability of the oil to rid itself of moisture. It really needs to heat up to somewhere around 200 degrees F. If the ICE started and ran for only a few minutes and on a regular basis, sludge would form, inevitably. This why I believe that people who advocate converting a Prius to a plug-in vehicle aren't thinking it through, completely. Not only will batteries need to be replaced more often (unless more batteries are added), but oil issues are bound to surface for some people.

Dave

And that is why I would love to have the IcE on a 2 to 4 minute shut off timer. You push the button and the ICE stays off for a few minutes. You would use it when you want to move the car with out going anywhere. Maybe you may need to move it because you a blocking another car in the driveway. Or maybe you may need to get something out of the garage like a lawn mower but it car is blocking it. You can move the car a few feet get the lawn mower out then put the car back without ever starting the ICE.

[skyfish400h]

It's not that part of the infrequent startups I'd worry about - it's the inability of the oil to rid itself of moisture. It really needs to heat up to somewhere around 200 degrees F. If the ICE started and ran for only a few minutes and on a regular basis, sludge would form, inevitably. This why I believe that people who advocate converting a Prius to a plug-in vehicle aren't thinking it through, completely. Not only will batteries need to be replaced more often (unless more batteries are added), but oil issues are bound to surface for some people.

Dave

The plug in conversion installs additional batteries to increase capacity. As for the engine starting, the plugin only delays the initial startup to later in your commute. Once the the system has drained to the point of needing the ICE then it behaves normally to keep the ICE within operating temperature.

[RX400h]

Silver,

I agree, although conceivably, someone can overdo it and keep switching it on enough so the battery charge falls below 60%, which would decrease battery life.

Sky,

In order to achieve the 100 MPG that the plug-in people seek to achieve, I can see people running to a store that is 6 miles away and using electric power all the up and halfway back. I think that either the car is all electric, or just as it is. I just don't think there is a good middle ground without extra cost for batteries and more frequent oil changes that eat up any additional gas mileage savings. As you know, every design must compromise in one way or the other. I believe that Toyota engineers went through many design scenarios before coming up with what is offered today.

Dave

[silvercorvette]

I like the hybrid the way it is. I have been against plug ins for one reason, this country doesn't have enough electrical generating capacity. There are areas in the country where they have rolling black outs in the summer because they can't keep up with the demand for power to keep home A/Cs running. If you add plug in cars to a system that can't produce enough power for homes and factories. The fact that peak power demand occurs during the summer when people do the most driving you will create a nightmare.

[vinovelo]

This is one of the reasons why a plug-in hybrid is a bad idea. Can you imagine driving 10 miles before the ICE comes to life? Heavy sludge as oil would be inevitable.

. . . . . . . . . .

Dave

Doesn't matter . . . whether you drive 10, 20, or 50 miles prior to ICE fireing off. As soon as the vehicle hits appx 31mph, the electric motor 'spins-up' up the ICE, to a matching speed, so that when the ICE finally does fire off (which will always happen by 41mph on flat ground - no head wind) - the ICE, though not yet burning any gas, will be sufficiently lubricated.

Gotta give those toyota engineers credit ... they thought of everything ;)

OK, So, what I hear being said here is that because the motor is pre-spun before ignition that is is safely

lubricated.

But, that still does not make sense to me. Even spining it up has frictional wear with or without ignition.

Things I am wondering that may have been done:

- Auxillary (electric?) oil pump to maintain lubrication when the ICE is not in operation?

- Opening valves while the ICE is spun up to avoid compression (to avoid load on the electric motor)?

Clearly, Lexus (as well as the Toyota line) is not about to dammage their reputation for longevity and

reliability with hybrids that do not perform as well as their prevous generation of vehicles. But, I am

real curious to see how these problems were overcome.

Also, they certianly are not infalible (Toyota/Lexus) and I want to know before I plop down my hard

earned 50k on a vehicle that I plan to own for more than a decade.

Case-in-point: I bought my previous vehicle from another ultra-reliable manufacturer: Acura. The result?

The 2001 3.2 TL I bought had one of the most unreliable transmissions on the market. Almost certain to

fail near 50K miles.....as mine did. Catastrophically. I will add that Acura treated the problem well

with a replacement transmission but the basic enginerring flaw in the transmission remains. So, it

may fail again. I absolutely love the car, but, do not trust it.

Thanks,

/Steve

[skyfish400h]

In order to achieve the 100 MPG that the plug-in people seek to achieve, I can see people running to a store that is 6 miles away and using electric power all the up and halfway back. I think that either the car is all electric, or just as it is. I just don't think there is a good middle ground without extra cost for batteries and more frequent oil changes that eat up any additional gas mileage savings. As you know, every design must compromise in one way or the other. I believe that Toyota engineers went through many design scenarios before coming up with what is offered today.

Check out this site and bone up on plugins...your assumptions are not realistic.

http://www.hybridinterfaces.ca/plugins.html

[skyfish400h]

I like the hybrid the way it is. I have been against plug ins for one reason, this country doesn't have enough electrical generating capacity. There are areas in the country where they have rolling black outs in the summer because they can't keep up with the demand for power to keep home A/Cs running. If you add plug in cars to a system that can't produce enough power for homes and factories. The fact that peak power demand occurs during the summer when people do the most driving you will create a nightmare.

While plugins would tend to shift energy production from the burning of gas in your tank to the electric company, the numbers would be small for the forseeable future. Plenty of time for local energy generation to fill in the gap.

In addition the plugin would be on the grid a nite rather than during the day where there is the peak demand you speak of.

[SOMEONE ELSE'S GOT MY NAME]

It's not that part of the infrequent startups I'd worry about - it's the inability of the oil to rid itself of moisture. It really needs to heat up to somewhere around 200 degrees F. If the ICE started and ran for only a few minutes and on a regular basis, sludge would form, inevitably. This why I believe that people who advocate converting a Prius to a plug-in vehicle aren't thinking it through, completely. Not only will batteries need to be replaced more often (unless more batteries are added), but oil issues are bound to surface for some people.

Dave

s

Doesnt' work that way. The early PHEV conversion show no discernable engine wear / battery wear. Heck, there are rav4-ev's out there with excess of 100,000 miles on them. That's pure EV ... with only minimal capacity loss on their battery packs (I get mail from their list). Our hybrids have basicly the same batteries ... but theirs cycle even deeper. As for oil picking up extra moisture due to insuficient warm up, it's less likely to happen to hybrids because once the ICE DOES fire off, it stays on specifically, just to warm up both oil and emisions components, once they first cycle on. Now if the same person who has both straight ICE vehicles and a hybrid ... and they only drive 2, or 3, miles for the entire 150,000 miles or less that people normally keep cars? What are you gona do ... that person has the same cool oil issue, regardless whether he / she takes the hybrid or the ICE. They simply ought to change their oil more frequently.

[RX400h]

Unfortunately, it is well known in the battery industry that deep-cycling can and does shorten battery life. A standard battery can last 7 years under the right conditions (no deep-cycles), but this would be very rare for a marine-type battery that is designed to be deep-cycled. take a look at NiMH rechargable batteries for digital cameras and other heavy-usage devices. These batteries need to be replace fairly often. Even the new Lithium-Ion batteries for laptops cannot provide long life.

As far as the oil-life issue, there is little sense in swapping fuel savings with the added cost of changing oil three times as often. I worked with a guy who lost his engine in a $30,000 Toyota 4Runner because his daily commute was only 4 miles and he didn't think to change his oil every 1000 miles. Imagine if he had a plug-in that started the ICE only 2 minutes before he arrived at work. He'd have to change the oil every 500 miles. Who will accept that requirement?

Personally, I would never buy a plug in unless somehow, its batteries would last as long as Prius batteries AND I had a minimum of a 15-mile commute, one way. As you can tell, I'm not a big fan of shortening the oil change frequency!

[silvercorvette]

OK I am just picking numbers out of the air so don 't hold me to the exact number but Toyota / Lexus designed the hybrid battery not to deep cycle. The computer is programed to only charge them to about 80 to 90% on the high side and maybe 20 to 30% on the low side. I think the whole system is well thought out. I would love to see plug in vehicles but our country idn't ready for them yet. As long as we continue to have sheduled rolling blackout in the summer when people do the most driving I shudder to think thousands of cars plugged into the power grid. Before car makers can consider plug in vehicles this country needs to build more power generating capicity.

[skyfish400h]

RX400h and silvercorvette,

I'm kinda shocked that you guys are so down on plugin hybrids. The arguments you keep throwing out there have all been dealt with but you insist the you will never own one or that they are somehow going to cripple CA.

I think plugins, like all the other alternative energy options, should be part of a long list of things people (and governments) can choose from to make a difference. There will never be ONE solution to the problems we face in the future. In my mind the more choices the better. I would never discourage anyone from considering plugins for the reasons you have put forward.

Again, check out this website or do your own search on plugins to get all the facts. Then each has the ability to make up their own mind.

http://www.hybridinterfaces.ca/plugins.html

[silvercorvette]

RX400h and silvercorvette,

I'm kinda shocked that you guys are so down on plugin hybrids. The arguments you keep throwing out there have all been dealt with but you insist the you will never own one or that they are somehow going to cripple CA.

I think plugins, like all the other alternative energy options, should be part of a long list of things people (and governments) can choose from to make a difference. There will never be ONE solution to the problems we face in the future. In my mind the more choices the better. I would never discourage anyone from considering plugins for the reasons you have put forward.

Again, check out this website or do your own search on plugins to get all the facts. Then each has the ability to make up their own mind.

http://www.hybridinterfaces.ca/plugins.html

I am in favor of plug in and even made a post on one of these forums that I may wind up looking into the GM VOLT when my Lexus lease runs out. But I have heard about rolling black out in the west for the past decade. It is also bad here in NY (EDIT and seems to be getting worst every year) not just in NY but all over the country . We do not have enough plants that generate electricity in NY where I live. Every summer we are warned to cut back on A/C usage because the power companies can't keep up with demand and the ironic thing is that whenever a new plant is about to go up people protest because they don't want a power plant in their back yard. I love the idea of plugins but I am concerned that we don't have the capacity to charge them.

[RX400h]

This is the statement that really gets me nervous (from the link that was provided):

Below 32mph it will use stealth mode (pure electric) far more than normal.

Herein lies the problem. Conceivably, many people will "run to the store" without having to use the highway. Halfway to 4-mile-away store (or later), the car's ICE fires up. Unfortunately, it does not run nearly enough to boil off the moisture in the oil, especially on a cold Winter morning. The return trip doesn't help, because for most of that trip, vehicle speed never exceeds 40 and the ICE runs for only a couple of minutes - not nearly enough to get the oil temperature to 200 degrees F.

Maybe if everone who had a plug-in lived on Maui and had a 15-mile commute to the grocery store, there'd be no problems....

I read an article in our paper the other day that mentioned the growing popularity of electric cars on the island of Coronado (San Diego). Certainly, this makes more sense for most of these people who seldom need to exceed 30 MPH, anyway.

Silver,

There is a state-subsidized rebate for CA residents who buy solar panels, but the overall cost is still very high. With all the sunshine we have here, it makes sense; it's just that few people wish to spend $20,000 - $30,000 upfront for the panels. But yes, electricity usage soars during Summer months in some parts of the state. I need to turn on the AC only 7 days per year. That ocean breeze seems to make its way to my house!

[SOMEONE ELSE'S GOT MY NAME]

Unfortunately, it is well known in the battery industry that deep-cycling can and does shorten battery life. A standard battery can last 7 years under the right conditions (no deep-cycles), but this would be very rare for a marine-type battery that is designed to be deep-cycled. take a look at NiMH rechargable batteries for digital cameras and other heavy-usage devices. These batteries need to be replace fairly often. Even the new Lithium-Ion batteries for laptops cannot provide long life.

As far as the oil-life issue, there is little sense in swapping fuel savings with the added cost of changing oil three times as often. I worked with a guy who lost his engine in a $30,000 Toyota 4Runner because his daily commute was only 4 miles and he didn't think to change his oil every 1000 miles. Imagine if he had a plug-in that started the ICE only 2 minutes before he arrived at work. He'd have to change the oil every 500 miles. Who will accept that requirement?

Personally, I would never buy a plug in unless somehow, its batteries would last as long as Prius batteries AND I had a minimum of a 15-mile commute, one way. As you can tell, I'm not a big fan of shortening the oil change frequency!

.

Fortunately, you're focusing on the minority when worring about tiny trips and oil acids. Stats show the average trip folks travel to work (the major use of autos) is 19 miles. So yes, PHEV's won't work for the 10%-15% of folks that do the 3 mile runs ... less they do more oil chanages, or keep from flooring it, so the ICE never kick on at all.

As for deep cycle batteries, the marine - lead acid chemestry is NOT what will be used in PHEV's. As you point out, they don't handle long term use. New chemestires ARE fit for deeper / longer use, and ther ARE home brew PHEV's already out there that have been in use for years now, and 100,000 miles ... and the chemestries are constantly being improved ... and will continue. So when they hit the market, the bugs will likely be no worse than any other new thing that hits the market.

As for worring about excess pull on the grid, the idea is to plug in after 6PM because peak usage occurs between 10AM & 6PM. In fact, after 10PM, the grid is many times 80% under used! Additionally there are other alternatives, to day use plug ins. For example, several rav4-ev users, as well as other full ev users have photo cell roof tops, that not only run their entire need for home use, but for full recharge on their cars as well. It's all how you look at things. We ARE the country that put man on the moon. So filling up at home ought to be a no brainer, if we put even 2 ounces of thought into working out a simple way.

[RX400h]

Back in 2001, AC Delco came out with an AGM battery. This glass mat battery was touted as superior to lead acid and spiral-cell batteries as far as life expectancy. Like plug-ins, it was supposed to be a "better idea".

Sadly, many owners who did not travel at least 10 miles at a time, experienced a much shorter battery life (compared to that of a lead acid battery). Those who do travel longer distances on a consistent basis (as I do) are enjoying exceptional life (my 6 year-old battery is still performing superbly).

AC Delco discontinued the AGM battery after 2003. Why? ...because having a better battery for the "majority" was not good enough to prevent bad publicity from the thousands of unhappy customers. I see the same thing happening to plug-in cars - short battery life (compared to normal hybrids' battery life) and oil sludge issues could easily kill this type of car - sad, but imminent, based upon historical similarities.