SW03ES Posted January 4, 2007 Share Posted January 4, 2007 I use the bays too to do a pre-rinse and to clean out the wheel wells and undercarriage before I go home and do an ONR wash in the garage. The high pressure rinse is fine, I wouldn't use the soaps though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cherokee_Outlaw Posted January 4, 2007 Share Posted January 4, 2007 First of all, there are VERY few carwashes with "brushes" left in America. The ones you're thinking of a "brushless" and use soft cloth in those spinning rotating doo-dads. Brush or soft cloth... Soft cloth to me would be just as bad as a brush.. if a guy that went ahead of you had mudd all over his car... are you telling me nothing is left on that cloth!?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TOGWT Posted January 4, 2007 Share Posted January 4, 2007 While doing some research for an article, these are some of the chemicals used in some carwashes. If you get a chance, attend a car wash / wax vendors symposiums where they give demonstrations of the different soap products that these type of facilities use, as a Chemical Engineer they scare me.. You'll come away a convert to never using them again, on any vehicle. Hydrofluoric Acid (SiO2): Cleaning paint (inc wheel surfaces) - ten or more years ago this method was widely used by body-shops and detailers to remove water spots from paint surfaces, however, as time progressed, we started to see metallic paints darken under the clear coat. Hydrofluoric acid is also notoriously known to react with glass. On factory aluminium wheel surfaces, acrylic polyurethane finishes or polyester powdered coatings it will occlude (cloud) an indication that the finish surface has been compromised, it also produces micro hairline cracks, and will eventually fail. Most of the larger automotive paint suppliers (PPG, DuPont and BASF) do not recommend this type of chemical to be used on their paints. Stating that the acid, even if thoroughly flushed with water had already compromised the clear coat and given time would also compromise the paint system, dependant on the environment the vehicle was subjected, to over a period of 2-3 years it was possible that the clear coat would occlude (cloud) indicative of clear coat failure as the acid breaks down the paints binder system. It also has the unique ability to dissolve almost all inorganic oxides. In the human body, hydrofluoric acid reacts with calcium and damages nerves, bone, and several organs including the heart and kidneys. It has an NFPA health rating of 3; Short exposure could cause serious temporary or residual injury even though prompt medical attention was given Note: Muriatic acid is also a form of hydrochloric acid. Safety / health information- http://www.safetyline.wa.gov.au/institute/...re76/l76_01.asp Information resource - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrofluoric_acid Note: Do not confuse hydrochloric acid (HCI) with hydrofluoric (HF) acid because of the similarity of names. On the skin, hydrochloric acid burns from the outside in. Hydrofluoric acid solution readily penetrates the skin and burns both skin and deeper tissues. If enough acid is absorbed, it may lethally affect the heart and nervous system. Ammonium hydrogen fluoride NH4HF2 (or Ammonium bifluoride) is misclassified as the safe alternative to hydrogen fluoride, once mixed with water it becomes hydrogen fluoride one of the most common, and dangerous, acid wheel cleaners used in automatic carwashes today. Its effectiveness removing brake dust and difficult contaminants from wheels is undisputed, but most chemists say Ammonium bifluoride presents an unjustifiable and potentially lethal risk to carwash operators and their employees. Ammonium bifluoride sometimes known as ammonium fluoride or ammonium hydrogen fluoride is a crystalline salt formed when ammonium hydroxide reacts with hydrogen fluoride. Through a complicated chemical reaction, it essentially becomes hydrogen fluoride when mixed with water or liquid cleaning solutions. Similar to hydrogen fluoride, Ammonium bifluoride was originally developed for industrial uses, like etching glass, removing oxides from metals and eliminating mineral stains from stone, glass and porcelain (See also Water acting as a catalyst for Acid, Hydrogen Fluoride (SiO2) Information resource- Wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/ Professional Carwashing & Detailing Magazine - http://www.carwash.com/article.asp?IndexID=6631269 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW03ES Posted January 4, 2007 Share Posted January 4, 2007 Brush or soft cloth... Soft cloth to me would be just as bad as a brush.. if a guy that went ahead of you had mudd all over his car... are you telling me nothing is left on that cloth!?? Oh I'm not telling anyone to use soft cloth automatic carwashes, they definately will scratch the finish. They are however better than carwashes with actual brushes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cherokee_Outlaw Posted January 4, 2007 Share Posted January 4, 2007 While doing some research for an article, these are some of the chemicals used in some carwashes. If you get a chance, attend a car wash / wax vendors symposiums where they give demonstrations of the different soap products that these type of facilities use, as a Chemical Engineer they scare me.. You'll come away a convert to never using them again, on any vehicle. Hydrofluoric Acid (SiO2): Cleaning paint (inc wheel surfaces) - ten or more years ago this method was widely used by body-shops and detailers to remove water spots from paint surfaces, however, as time progressed, we started to see metallic paints darken under the clear coat. Hydrofluoric acid is also notoriously known to react with glass. On factory aluminium wheel surfaces, acrylic polyurethane finishes or polyester powdered coatings it will occlude (cloud) an indication that the finish surface has been compromised, it also produces micro hairline cracks, and will eventually fail. Most of the larger automotive paint suppliers (PPG, DuPont and BASF) do not recommend this type of chemical to be used on their paints. Stating that the acid, even if thoroughly flushed with water had already compromised the clear coat and given time would also compromise the paint system, dependant on the environment the vehicle was subjected, to over a period of 2-3 years it was possible that the clear coat would occlude (cloud) indicative of clear coat failure as the acid breaks down the paints binder system. It also has the unique ability to dissolve almost all inorganic oxides. In the human body, hydrofluoric acid reacts with calcium and damages nerves, bone, and several organs including the heart and kidneys. It has an NFPA health rating of 3; Short exposure could cause serious temporary or residual injury even though prompt medical attention was given Note: Muriatic acid is also a form of hydrochloric acid. Safety / health information- http://www.safetyline.wa.gov.au/institute/...re76/l76_01.asp Information resource - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrofluoric_acid Note: Do not confuse hydrochloric acid (HCI) with hydrofluoric (HF) acid because of the similarity of names. On the skin, hydrochloric acid burns from the outside in. Hydrofluoric acid solution readily penetrates the skin and burns both skin and deeper tissues. If enough acid is absorbed, it may lethally affect the heart and nervous system. Ammonium hydrogen fluoride NH4HF2 (or Ammonium bifluoride) is misclassified as the safe alternative to hydrogen fluoride, once mixed with water it becomes hydrogen fluoride one of the most common, and dangerous, acid wheel cleaners used in automatic carwashes today. Its effectiveness removing brake dust and difficult contaminants from wheels is undisputed, but most chemists say Ammonium bifluoride presents an unjustifiable and potentially lethal risk to carwash operators and their employees. Ammonium bifluoride sometimes known as ammonium fluoride or ammonium hydrogen fluoride is a crystalline salt formed when ammonium hydroxide reacts with hydrogen fluoride. Through a complicated chemical reaction, it essentially becomes hydrogen fluoride when mixed with water or liquid cleaning solutions. Similar to hydrogen fluoride, Ammonium bifluoride was originally developed for industrial uses, like etching glass, removing oxides from metals and eliminating mineral stains from stone, glass and porcelain (See also Water acting as a catalyst for Acid, Hydrogen Fluoride (SiO2) Information resource- Wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/ Professional Carwashing & Detailing Magazine - http://www.carwash.com/article.asp?IndexID=6631269 Ernies.. a car wash up here in mass has this on the web site... Maybe they are all diffrent? Q: What kind of detergents do you use? A: While some car washes use acidic detergent on vehicle paint, at Ernie’s we use a gentle, moderately alkaline detergent. Developed by Ernie’s in cooperation with a local firm, it is our own unique formulation. Q: Will your detergents harm my new wax job? A: Absolutely not. Our system is harmless to your vehicle’s finish and waxes. While some car washes attempt to remove dirt and stains with harsh chemicals, at Ernie’s we use safe, moderately alkaline detergents combined with high-pressure robotic rinsing. This automated system is purposely designed to only be strong enough to remove dirt, bird droppings, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW03ES Posted January 6, 2007 Share Posted January 6, 2007 LOL, of course the car wash is going to say that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cherokee_Outlaw Posted January 6, 2007 Share Posted January 6, 2007 LOL, of course the car wash is going to say that. umm if they say it... and a guy got a sample to only find out what they said was lies.. .. a class action law suit would be brought on them.. and they would loose be $$$$ Everyone that used them would sign up... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW03ES Posted January 6, 2007 Share Posted January 6, 2007 Its marketing, its not true but its not lies either. For instance several car wax manufacturers extole the benefit of Teflon in their waxes, even when DuPont, the maker of Teflon, says there would be no benefit in that application. First of all, their assertion that their detergents will not harm wax jobs is a bald faced lie. ALL detergents harm wax jobs. Wax is a sacrificial layer on the paint, water is a detergent and guess what, it harms wax jobs! The assertion that their system is harmless to the vehicles finish is also a lie. Lets just be realistic, just like you said to me how realistic do you think it is to expect that the washing media inside a carwash is cleaned after every car is washed? Pretty unrealistic. As cars pass through the tunnel the dirt from the cars is transferred to and absorbed by the washing media. Guess what that does? Makes it abrasive which scratches the car. Believe me, I've detailed hundreds of cars. A car can not go through an automatic car wash and come out without SOME kind of damage just because of this fact, and the effect is cumulative. Theres truth to their claims, but the benefits of that truth are exagerrated. If you believe corporations and advertisers are afraid of class action suits so much they never stretch the truth in their marketing and sales pitches, you need to go around the block a few more times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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