Engine Will Not Warm To Operating Temperature

[Lexusfreak]

Sounds like a concensus! :D So basically if I drain the coolant and replace the thermostat, and refill (can I reuse the coolant, it's basically new?), I should be set, right? Is the thermostat a part I want to use OEM with, or does it not matter? I know it's just a few dollars. Thanks for the quick replies.

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Gumart, did a new thermostat fix your problem?

[jragosta]

You have been taught to follow rote instructions. I have a PhD in chemistry -and over a dozen years of water purification experience. You are wrong. High conductivity is NOT always caused by high TDS.  Higher pH does NOT mean low Ca in the water.

Don't confuse the ability to follow a few rote directions with truly understanding a topic.

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That is great you have a PHD...To bad I know people with PHD's that can put wipers on cars too. BONG Don't let a piece of paper "go to your head". When people starting bringing in degrees it is a last resort. I could careless what you have nor would I resort going to this level.

You can take rules for this and that. I know what is "gospel" in the reef world. You can whine about TDS are this and that. In the end, you measure TDS in ppm, period. If you were right show me a conductivity meter and not a TDS meter. Show me where to buy a conductivity meter for testing my salt water????? It beter not have TDS on it anywhere.

Higher PH in my world of water does mean low Ca and ALk. They are all again integral to eachother.

Go get a reef tank and see how good your little piece of paper is; it will not pay for my thoudsands of dollars in coral either.

To close, just because someone has a degree does not make them any smarter then anyone else. It means you can pass some tests, write some papers and talk to some people. Hell, I have been there and wasted my time.

**If you want too, PM or email me since this topic is getting pretty old nor does 99.9999% of the people care about it nor who has what piece of paper either.

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While a PhD in chemistry doesn't qualify someone to put wipres on a car, it sure as heck ensures that I know a lot more about water chemistry than you do. 12 years of industrial research in water purification furthers that.

You're using a bunch of simplifications that have been provided to you. That doesn't mean that you know how water chemistry works. From reading what you wrote, I can guarantee you'd fail a college Freshman chemistry test.

No one is saying that you're stupid or that I'm smarter than you. But when it comes to water chemistry, you're just plain wrong. I have the credentials AND experience to prove it.

[jragosta]

Holly  my tap water is about 15 to 18 on the scale!!!!

Just having some fun with you.  I would never put the    that comes out of the tap in my town, into my car.

Infact I will not even wash my car with it.

But I see folks allover town putting into thier cars!  Locale radeator shop keeps busy.

I use a softer system and revers ro system.  But to play it safe I use a good premix solution.

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You're playing it very conservative - there's nothing wrong with that.

But in many parts of the country which have reasonably soft water, tap water is just fine - after being mixed with good quality antifreeze.

[mburnickas]

While a PhD in chemistry doesn't qualify someone to put wipres on a car, it sure as heck ensures that I know a lot more about water chemistry than you do. 12 years of industrial research in water purification furthers that.

You're using a bunch of simplifications that have been provided to you. That doesn't mean that you know how water chemistry works. From reading what you wrote, I can guarantee you'd fail a college Freshman chemistry test.

No one is saying that you're stupid or that I'm smarter than you. But when it comes to water chemistry, you're just plain wrong. I have the credentials AND experience to prove it.

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Again it (degrees) proves nothing…..

I have enough degrees in engineering that says I passed freshman chemistry. Do you need a copy of my degrees????? But then again, that proves ZERO!

Again, go get a reef tank and then show me how much a PDH means. It only means something to the person that got it, no more, no less.

Some of the smartest people working for NASA have no degrees. I see it everyday at work. So you have a PHD, and that means??????? LOL As I tell people at work, "When people bring their degress into it, they are full of it."

I could say this and that about mine, but what does that mean??? ZERO! Please take it off line since it means nothing.

[monarch]

The factory original coolant mixture of the 2003 and earlier Toyota / Lexus models contains 50% distilled water and 50% Toyota Red Long Life Antifreeze. All an owner has to do to keep their radiator sparkling clean and leakfree for almost unlimited years and miles is to use this same exact coolant mixture whenever changing the coolant. Here's real world photographic proof:

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y189/mastertech/89rad.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y189/mast...h/89drained.jpg

[Gumart1]

I'll have to post the result in a few days - my %^$%$ heat went out in my house! :cries: And not a Dealer in sight carries the replacement gas valve for my 5 year old Bryant furnace!!!

So unfortunately my thermostat will wait until next week...but will post the results. Thanks for the suggestions and the great info on this thread.

[jragosta]

Again it (degrees) proves nothing…..

I have enough degrees in engineering that says I passed freshman chemistry. Do you need a copy of my degrees????? But then again, that proves ZERO!

Again, go get a reef tank and then show me how much a PDH means. It only means something to the person that got it, no more, no less.

Some of the smartest people working for NASA have no degrees. I see it everyday at work. So you have a PHD, and that means??????? LOL  As I tell people at work, "When people bring their degress into it, they are full of it."

I could say this and that about mine, but what does that mean??? ZERO! Please take it off line since it means nothing.     

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It's not the lack of degree that says you don't know what you're talking about - it's your insistence on making the same mistakes over and over - even after I patiently explain why you're wrong.

You have a reef tank. That's nice. It means that you've learned to follow instructions. It doesn't mean that you understand water chemistry.

For example, tell me what pH is - and how it changes with the addition of CO2. How much CO2 is required to reduce the pH by one unit?

[914lps]

Holly  my tap water is about 15 to 18 on the scale!!!!

Just having some fun with you.  I would never put the    that comes out of the tap in my town, into my car.

Infact I will not even wash my car with it.

But I see folks allover town putting into thier cars!  Locale radeator shop keeps busy.

I use a softer system and revers ro system.  But to play it safe I use a good premix solution.

←

You're playing it very conservative - there's nothing wrong with that.

But in many parts of the country which have reasonably soft water, tap water is just fine - after being mixed with good quality antifreeze.

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Like I said in my town.... I'll bet we have some of the nastiest water round the US The locale water companies go nuts. The pumps they use are rated at a 5 to 7 yr life. Our water kills them in 1 to 2 yrs. In the summer the ground water is so hot, no one ever turns thier hot water on, becouse the cold water comes out at over 100 deg.

[jragosta]

Holly  my tap water is about 15 to 18 on the scale!!!!

Just having some fun with you.  I would never put the    that comes out of the tap in my town, into my car.

Infact I will not even wash my car with it.

But I see folks allover town putting into thier cars!  Locale radeator shop keeps busy.

I use a softer system and revers ro system.  But to play it safe I use a good premix solution.

←

You're playing it very conservative - there's nothing wrong with that.

But in many parts of the country which have reasonably soft water, tap water is just fine - after being mixed with good quality antifreeze.

←

Like I said in my town.... I'll bet we have some of the nastiest water round the US The locale water companies go nuts. The pumps they use are rated at a 5 to 7 yr life. Our water kills them in 1 to 2 yrs. In the summer the ground water is so hot, no one ever turns thier hot water on, becouse the cold water comes out at over 100 deg.

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I sure hope your town has some other redeeming characteristics. What you've described so far doesn't sound like much fun.

[mburnickas]

It's not the lack of degree that says you don't know what you're talking about - it's your insistence on making the same mistakes over and over - even after I patiently explain why you're wrong.

You have a reef tank. That's nice. It means that you've learned to follow instructions. It doesn't mean that you understand water chemistry. 

For example, tell me what pH is - and how it changes with the addition of CO2. How much CO2 is required to reduce the pH by one unit?

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Following instructions, really? Show me some to follow with all the documented steps and process? It is called knowing a balance between all elements..:chairshot:

From what I remember years ago taking a this boring class with will do zero in my life or job - PH is the a measure of the how action the H+ (hydrogen ions) that are in a fluid etc & it is measured in acidic or alk.. blah blah….. I could go on and on but why. This all started since the terms are measure with in TDS in todays world. Still waiting for your conductivity meter and not a TDS meter..

See I have asked you 2 times, that is called twice to take this offline since NO ONE CARES. Up in the corner there is a feature to take this OFFLINE. I would hope that a person at "your level" could understand this. Then again this makes time #3 to TAKE THIS OFFLINE. unreal...

[mburnickas]

The factory original coolant mixture of the 2003 and earlier Toyota / Lexus models contains 50% distilled water and 50% Toyota Red Long Life Antifreeze.  All an owner has to do to keep their radiator sparkling clean and leakfree for almost unlimited years and miles is to use this same exact coolant mixture whenever changing the coolant.  Here's real world photographic proof:

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y189/mastertech/89rad.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y189/mast...h/89drained.jpg

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I almost forget.

So now a picture of some fluid in a $.085 aluminum pan correlates to something? Also I did not know you owned a 1989 coronal with XXX miles. Nor does this pix mean anything since I do not know the history of the car, was it a new cap? New rad? When were these pix taken? Water pump not worn out yet??? Are you not that guy that does what Toyota states? If you did, you would not be on the original pump since they would have replaced it. Nevermine that if you followed the Toyota manual you would not be draining it every year. Then again you stated one value then something 200% more! Does Toyota know this?

Also I asked Lexus, that MANUFACTURES of my car and they even stated you do not have to use there fluid and be 100% fine…So now “monarch” supersedes Lexus directives? But I do like photo chopped pixs. What they really mean I do not know; but next time take the pix with better resolution since it is low.

[monarch]

So now a picture of some fluid in a $.085 aluminum pan correlates to something? Also I did not know you owned a 1989 coronal with XXX miles. Nor does this pix mean anything since I do not know the history of the car, was it a new cap? New rad? When were these pix taken? Water pump not worn out yet??? Are you not that guy that does what Toyota states? If you did, you would not be on the original pump since they would have replaced it. Nevermine that if you followed the Toyota manual you would not be draining it every year. Then again you stated one value then something 200% more! Does Toyota know this?

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The picture shows the factory original radiator cap and yes it still looks brand new after 16 years because the Toyota coolant / distilled water has prevented any corrosion or mineral deposits from forming in the cooling system.

Neither the radiator or water pump has worn out after 16 years / 245,000 miles either.

I simply drained the radiator every 1-2 years instead of draining both the radiator and engine block at less frequent intervals. I never flushed the cooling system or used cooling system cleaners or additives. Why? Because there's no rust, scale or sediment that needs to be flushed out. Unlike auto parts store brands of antifreeze, the Toyota Red does a pefect job of preventing corrosion and mineral deposits from forming.

[mburnickas]

The picture shows the factory original radiator cap and yes it still looks brand new after 16 years because the Toyota coolant / distilled water has prevented any corrosion or mineral deposits from forming in the cooling system.

Neither the radiator or water pump has worn out after 16 years / 245,000 miles either.

I simply drained the radiator every 1-2 years instead of draining both the radiator and engine block at less frequent intervals. I never flushed the cooling system or used cooling system cleaners or additives. Why? Because there's no rust, scale or sediment that needs to be flushed out. Unlike auto parts store brands of antifreeze, the Toyota Red does a pefect job of preventing corrosion and mineral deposits from forming.

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I guess I have to take your word on it but show me 100 cars and have over 50 look like yours; maybe then I will take 50% of face value. Then again why would I chance a $100 savings for water pump that could distroy my timing belt? Not worth the savings and chance.

Then again I could show you a pix of my bike rad NOT using Toyota coolant & it looks the same way. That is going on 12 years old and only 4 drains and fills. No scales no nothing. I just changed the original hose then summer. Perfect inside; what does this say, Toyota coolant is not the only one that is good. Toyota coolant is nothing special here. Is Toyota good, yup. Are there others just as good, yup. there are also ones very bad too. Again you just need to look around for the others. I think we hit on this topic about 100 times since 2003

You do not need cleaners or adds in the rad any ways. You can flush it and call it a day. I have never used cleaners in my rad since I have been driving.

[jragosta]

Following instructions, really? Show me some to follow with all the documented steps and process?  It is called knowing a balance between all elements..:chairshot:

From what I remember years ago taking a this boring class with will do zero in my life or job - PH is the a measure of the how action the H+ (hydrogen ions) that are in a fluid etc & it is measured in acidic or alk.. blah blah….. I could go on and on but why. This all started since the terms are measure with in TDS in todays world. Still waiting for your conductivity meter and not a TDS meter..  

See I have asked you 2 times, that is called twice to take this offline since NO ONE CARES. Up in the corner there is a feature to take this OFFLINE. I would hope that a person at "your level" could understand this. Then again this makes time #3 to TAKE THIS OFFLINE. unreal...

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I'm not interested in taking it off line - I know what I'm talking about and you don't. I've BUILT the meters that are called TDS meters and I know exactly what they measure. I've taught chemistry courses involving water purification. I've designed water purification systems for nuclear power plants which produce water a thousand times purer than your 5 stage system will achieve.

Your attempts to go off line are simply to hide the fact that you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Oh, and your explanation above 'PH is the a measure of the how action the H+ (hydrogen ions) that are in a fluid' is completely wrong. pH is simply a measure (in negative base 10 logarithmic format) of the hydrogen ion concentration in an aqueous solution.

Admit it - you don't know what you're talking about.

[mburnickas]

I'm not interested in taking it off line - I know what I'm talking about and you don't. I've BUILT the meters that are called TDS meters and I know exactly what they measure. I've taught chemistry courses involving water purification. I've designed water purification systems for nuclear power plants which produce water a thousand times purer than your 5 stage system will achieve.

Your attempts to go off line are simply to hide the fact that you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Oh, and your explanation above 'PH is the a measure of the how action the H+ (hydrogen ions) that are in a fluid' is completely wrong. pH is simply a measure (in negative base 10 logarithmic format) of the hydrogen ion concentration in an aqueous solution.

Admit it - you don't know what you're talking about.

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That is great don't take it offline. So now I am wrong..That is great and I just looked it up online this am on a famous encyclopedia, The American Heritage, yahoo, website; hmmmmm, wrong you say? I guess I am wrong since I did not build this and that and teach this and that; which correlates to nothing. Anyone can follow cookie cutter steps or “few rote directions”.

Your definition is one of many. Mine and yours are both right. You asked what PH is, not for the math formula (def) for plug and play. You asked and I told you. Now if you wanted the math formula def that is what you would have gotten. Ask more specific next time.

I have asked you 3 times for a conductivity meter and not a TDS meter. People use TDS meters and not “conductivity”. I do not buy a “conductivity” meter I buy a TDS meter and I am the one that stated this first. I stated this days ago and no response from you but TDS is wrong, blab blah...

I asked ask you for the documentation for all the steps I follow for my reef? Nothing on your end, shocking ha.

Oh, my attempt is again to take it offline since this is off topic. Can't people with PHD's understand this nor understand forum rules? I will gladly talk more offline since apparently I guess us little people know "jack"; attempt #4 now to take this off. Wow, what does it take. Again I would like to talk more offline but many attempts fail on your end to comprehend this. Your knowledge of this is light years ahead of man kind, I am sure, but just because you build this and that teach this and that means nothing. The only person in this thread that cares about this is YOU! You can start your own topic and go back-and-forth with yourself if you wish?

I guess we need a mod here since I guess a guy with a PHD can't understand this & that no ones cares! You are unreal and I have asked to stay on topic. Take it offline (Attempt #5).

[jragosta]

I'm not interested in taking it off line - I know what I'm talking about and you don't. I've BUILT the meters that are called TDS meters and I know exactly what they measure. I've taught chemistry courses involving water purification. I've designed water purification systems for nuclear power plants which produce water a thousand times purer than your 5 stage system will achieve.

Your attempts to go off line are simply to hide the fact that you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Oh, and your explanation above 'PH is the a measure of the how action the H+ (hydrogen ions) that are in a fluid' is completely wrong. pH is simply a measure (in negative base 10 logarithmic format) of the hydrogen ion concentration in an aqueous solution.

Admit it - you don't know what you're talking about.

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That is great don't take it offline. So now I am wrong..That is great and I just looked it up online this am on a famous encyclopedia, The American Heritage, yahoo, website; hmmmmm, wrong you say? I guess I am wrong since I did not build this and that and teach this and that; which correlates to nothing. Anyone can follow cookie cutter steps or “few rote directions”.

Your definition is one of many. Mine and yoursare both right. You asked what PH is, not for the math formula (def) for plug and play. You asked and I told you. Now if you wanted the math formala that is what you would have gotten. Ask more specific next time.

I have asked you 3 times for a conductivity meter and not a TDS meter. People use TDS meters and not “conductivity”. I do not buy a “conductivity” meter I buy a TDS meter and I am the one that stated this first. I stated this days ago and no response from you but TDS is wrong, blab blah...

I asked ask you for the documentation for all the steps I follow for my reef? Nothing on your end, shocking ha.

Oh, my attempt is again to take it offline since this is off topic. Can't people with PHD's understand this nor understand forum rules? I will gladly talk more offline since apparently I guess us little people know "jack"; attempt #4 now to take this off. Wow, what does it take. Again I would like to talk more offline but many attempts fail on your end to comprehend this. Your knowledge of this is light years ahead of man kind, I am sure, but just because you build this and that teach this and that means nothing. The only person in this thread that cares about this is YOU! You can start your own topic and go back-and-forth with yourself if you wish?

I guess we need a mod here since I guess a guy with a PHD can't understand this & that no ones cares! You are unreal and I have asked to stay on topic. Take it offline (Attempt #5).

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That's an awfully roundabout way to say that you're wrong and don't know what you're talking about.

[mburnickas]

That's an awfully roundabout way to say that you're wrong and don't know what you're talking about.

I do not know what the means... You asked and I told you I am sorry you assumed things. Next time ask for something you want. If you want to think you are right, great have at it. So far, all the info I have is, well, we both are. One is what "it" is and one is defining it in math terms; which 90% of people could careless.

Again all the jobs you have had even add no values for ways I said up top. Still do not get it. Take it offline since I wait for your contact. Attempt #6. I feel like I am talking to a pre-schooler who does not listen.

How your "nuclear power plants" correlates to a car not warming up, I will never know.Then again anyone can follow standard work and processes.

[SW03ES]

Knock it off, both of you. Personal arguments need to be kept OFF of the public forums.

Jrag- You may not be interested in taking this offline but he's made numerous attempts to get you to contact him via PM, you need to do that.

Any further posts of this nature will be removed and disciplinary action taken against the member's accounts.

[jragosta]

Knock it off, both of you. Personal arguments need to be kept OFF of the public forums.

Jrag- You may not be interested in taking this offline but he's made numerous attempts to get you to contact him via PM, you need to do that.

Any further posts of this nature will be removed and disciplinary action taken against the member's accounts.

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The guy is giving people incorrect information. I'm trying to correct him and inform people that his information is incorrect.

If I had gone off line, people here would have been left with incorrect information. Is your objective to get people correct or not?

[914lps]

Holly  my tap water is about 15 to 18 on the scale!!!!

Just having some fun with you.  I would never put the    that comes out of the tap in my town, into my car.

Infact I will not even wash my car with it.

But I see folks allover town putting into thier cars!  Locale radeator shop keeps busy.

I use a softer system and revers ro system.  But to play it safe I use a good premix solution.

←

You're playing it very conservative - there's nothing wrong with that.

But in many parts of the country which have reasonably soft water, tap water is just fine - after being mixed with good quality antifreeze.

←

Like I said in my town.... I'll bet we have some of the nastiest water round the US The locale water companies go nuts. The pumps they use are rated at a 5 to 7 yr life. Our water kills them in 1 to 2 yrs. In the summer the ground water is so hot, no one ever turns thier hot water on, becouse the cold water comes out at over 100 deg.

←

I sure hope your town has some other redeeming characteristics. What you've described so far doesn't sound like much fun.

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Lets see we have folks that know when and how to take it off line.... Just kidding...

We have the colorado river for boating and fishing. Lake Mohave same thing. Great place for off roading, hiking, rock honding... Lots of open road with no traffic. In fact a 10 min jam up is a big event here..

We have Laughline 10 min by boat, or 20 by car. Los Vegas is an hour and a half. Affourdable housing. No snow.. Nice folks.. Good city leaders that are open to your advise. Yes, I can walk up and just talk to the chief of police or the mayor. Or my county representative, and so on. But I like it. I'm sure for others it would be the pits... But I'll take having to treat the crappy water in exchange for the saftey, no trafic, and lots of nice folks.

[SW03ES]

The guy is giving people incorrect information. I'm trying to correct him and inform people that his information is incorrect.

If I had gone off line, people here would have been left with incorrect information. Is your objective to get people correct or not?

←

No, if you had gone offline we wouldn't have had to deal with this immature "I'm smarter than you", one-upping, berating exchange between the two of you. Post your opinion on the matter, post your credentials and take the fighting offline. Let the members decide who to believe.

[Gumart1]

Problem solved ...or so I thought. I just replaced the thermostat and, just as everyone here recommended, it clearly solved the temperature gauge issue. See the attached photo. Before I changed it out, it never reached even halfway to the first mark. Saturns have a tendency to run hotter, so where it is now is perfect. That tells me that I definitely had a stuck-open thermostat.

Now, after running the engine to operating temperature and filling the coolant to the correct mark, after about 10 minutes I noticed some slight smoking coming from the radiator area. With a light, I cannot see any leaks whatsoever. All my hoses and clamps seem fine. At first I thought the system was burning off some coolant residue from splashing, but the smoke started increasing. Luckily the temp. gauge never went higher than in the photo. I also heard the sound of coolant boiling in the resovoir. I did add the correct mixture of coolant and water.

One thing that scares me is when I was first draining the coolant, I removed the resovoir cap and opened the draincock for the radiator, and NOTHING came out! So I proceeded to open the drain on the engine block and it all came out that way. I have to add that when I originally flushed my coolant a few months back, it drained just fine from the radiator drain !Removed!. So the question is, is it possible that when I flushed the coolant the first time, I "plugged" the radiator? Could the old stuck-open thermostat have masked the problem? But then again coolant had to be flowing because it never heated up?

Oops, here is the photo - Just had another thought too. My new thermostat could be bad?

[ArmyofOne]

Problem solved ...or so I thought. I just replaced the thermostat and, just as everyone here recommended, it clearly solved the temperature gauge issue. See the attached photo. Before I changed it out, it never reached even halfway to the first mark. Saturns have a tendency to run hotter, so where it is now is perfect. That tells me that I definitely had a stuck-open thermostat.

Now, after running the engine to operating temperature and filling the coolant to the correct mark, after about 10 minutes I noticed some slight smoking coming from the radiator area. With a light, I cannot see any leaks whatsoever. All my hoses and clamps seem fine. At first I thought the system was burning off some coolant residue from splashing, but the smoke started increasing. Luckily the temp. gauge never went higher than in the photo. I also heard the sound of coolant boiling in the resovoir. I did add the correct mixture of coolant and water.

One thing that scares me is when I was first draining the coolant, I removed the resovoir cap and opened the draincock for the radiator, and NOTHING came out! So I proceeded to open the drain on the engine block and it all came out that way. I have to add that when I originally flushed my coolant a few months back, it drained just fine from the radiator drain !Removed!. So the question is, is it possible that when I flushed the coolant the first time, I "plugged" the radiator? Could the old stuck-open thermostat have masked the problem? But then again coolant had to be flowing because it never heated up?

Oops, here is the photo - Just had another thought too. My new thermostat could be bad?

My ES250 did that when my radiator was clogged. the reading at the top fo the radiato (jason measured it with some kind fo thermometer) read 177 degrees and the bottm reading was about 56 degrees. so the bottom half of my radiator wasnt working. just a thought.,

and yes, a new t-stat could be faulty. happens alot.