What Will Power Steering Fluid Do To An Ls400

[914lps]

What can power steering fluid do to my system, instead of Dex III? I know this has come up before but I have never seen a definitive answer.

Pep Boys states they called a dealer and was told to use Power Steering Fluid. And that is why they filled my system with Power Steering Fluid hen they put the new pump in.

I called three dealers. One stated Power Steering, One said either one is fine, and one said only Dex III.

I called Lexus USA. They had no one there to ask, so they called two dealers and called me back. They stated “It should be OK, but change it if you want to, if it was going to hurt the system, you would have had the steering fail on your drive home!

What kind of answer is “It Should Be OK???”

What is with that??? I know both are Hydraulic fluids but I’m sure the viscosity, heat rating, and other specifications are different.

Anyone know for sure if Power Steering Fluid instead od DexIII is a no harm, no fouwl thing, or will it mess-up things like your valves etc.....

[prix]

I recently had to deal with this same thorny issue. Eventually used power steering fluid. According to everyone I spoke with, it does not make a difference. I called five different dealers. Spoke with three different Lexus trained mechanics. Everyone said it doesn't make a difference. Two peopel told me Lexus cars coming off assembly line have power steering fluid in them, not ATF with Dex. One dealer said when they flush power steering systems, they replace with Johson's power steering fluid. One mechanic said that they had not been able to determine any difference between the two. Someone in a parts department told me that Toyota approves use of Johnson's Power Steering Fluid. So, as you can see, I've talked to a lot of people, but never did get an answer as to why my owner's manual specifies use of ATF, yet everyone else tells me that it doesn't matter, and/or actually prefers and uses power steering fluid. On the assumption that if dealers are using power steering fluid then that's what I should be doing, I used it in my new power steering system as well. I really have no idea. If you get anything definitive as to any differences, please post!

What can power steering fluid do to my system, instead of Dex III?  I know this has come up before but I have never seen a definitive answer. 

Pep Boys states they called a dealer and was told to use Power Steering Fluid. And that is why they filled my system with Power Steering Fluid hen they put the new pump in.

I called three dealers.  One stated Power Steering, One said either one is fine, and one said only Dex III.

I called Lexus USA.  They had no one there to ask, so they called two dealers and called me back.  They stated “It should be OK, but change it if  you want to, if it was going to hurt the system, you would have had the steering fail on your drive home!

What kind of answer is “It Should Be OK???”

What is with that???  I know both are Hydraulic fluids but I’m sure the viscosity, heat rating, and other specifications are different.

Anyone know for sure if Power Steering Fluid instead od DexIII is a no harm, no fouwl thing, or will it mess-up things like your valves etc.....

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[monarch]

Lets face it. American mechanics and American car builders don't give a BLEEP about reliability and durability. Americans don't even build one vehicle that is reliable and durable. So it should be no surprize they treat the top quality automobiles made in other countries like junk. Hence when it comes to automotive fluids and lubricants American mechanics think of every excuse not to use what the foreign car makers recommend. Cases in point:

1. The Toyota engineers say "Use only Dexron ATF" in the power steering system. The American mechanics substitute various brands of power steering fluid that are designed for American car power steering systems.

2. The Toyota engineers say "Use only DOT 3 brake fluid" in the braking system. The American mechanics won't use DOT 3, but will substitute DOT 4 or some other non-recommended fluid.

3. The Toyota engineers say "Use a 50/50 mix of distilled water and red Toyota Long Life Antifreeze" in the cooling system. The American mechanics will substitute green and yellow antifreezes and mix them with tap water.

In these ways and more American mechanics butcher Asian cars and contribute to their premature demise. That's why I either steer clear of American auto service shops or buy the parts, fluids and lubes Toyota recommends separately and then tell the shop "use these parts and fluids."

[mburnickas]

What can power steering fluid do to my system, instead of Dex III?  I know this has come up before but I have never seen a definitive answer. 

Pep Boys states they called a dealer and was told to use Power Steering Fluid. And that is why they filled my system with Power Steering Fluid hen they put the new pump in.

I called three dealers.  One stated Power Steering, One said either one is fine, and one said only Dex III.

I called Lexus USA.  They had no one there to ask, so they called two dealers and called me back.  They stated “It should be OK, but change it if  you want to, if it was going to hurt the system, you would have had the steering fail on your drive home!

What kind of answer is “It Should Be OK???”

What is with that???  I know both are Hydraulic fluids but I’m sure the viscosity, heat rating, and other specifications are different.

Anyone know for sure if Power Steering Fluid instead od DexIII is a no harm, no fouwl thing, or will it mess-up things like your valves etc.....

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If you look at the fluid properties of PS and Dex3 (atf) they are VERY close.

[prix]

well, i definitely will save this info for later use. one question though....why is this product labeled auto transmission fluid (with dextron) and not power steering fluid with dextron? stands to reason that atf fluid would have different properties. the mechanic i worked with said that the johnson's power steering fluid has slightly different viscosity, etc., which is why he prefers it. also, if i want to switch out now to atf with dex, would he need to do a complete flush in order to change to atf? or, can he just drain the PS fluid that is in there and put in atf with dex? that ps fluid has been in the car three-four days only.

i dread checking the color of the antifreeze. bet you anything it's green. argh!!!

Lets face it.  American mechanics and American car builders don't give a BLEEP about reliability and durability.  Americans don't even build one vehicle that is reliable and durable.  So it should be no surprize they treat the top quality automobiles made in other countries like junk.  Hence when it comes to automotive fluids and lubricants American mechanics think of every excuse not to use what the foreign car makers recommend.  Cases in point:

1. The Toyota engineers say "Use only Dexron ATF" in the power steering system.  The American mechanics substitute various brands of power steering fluid that are designed for American car power steering systems.

2. The Toyota engineers say "Use only DOT 3 brake fluid" in the braking system.  The American mechanics won't use DOT 3, but will substitute DOT 4 or some other non-recommended fluid.

3. The Toyota engineers say "Use a 50/50 mix of distilled water and red Toyota Long Life Antifreeze" in the cooling system.  The American mechanics will substitute green and yellow antifreezes and mix them with tap water.

In these ways and more American mechanics butcher Asian cars and contribute to their premature demise.  That's why I either steer clear of American auto service shops or buy the parts, fluids and lubes Toyota recommends separately and then tell the shop "use these parts and fluids."

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[monarch]

why is this product labeled auto transmission fluid (with dextron) and not power steering fluid with dextron?  stands to reason that atf fluid would have different properties.

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For 33 years Toyota has designed all of its power steering systems to operate on Dexron type automatic transmission fluids. Same with most other Japanese auto makers. For that reason if you took your car to a auto repair shop in Japan, the shop probably wouldn't even have any products on the shelf labeled "power steering fluid" because for decades they've been using Dexron type automatic transmission fluid in the power steering system.

[mburnickas]

Lets face it. American mechanics and American car builders don't give a BLEEP about reliability and durability. Americans don't even build one vehicle that is reliable and durable. So it should be no surprize they treat the top quality automobiles made in other countries like junk. Hence when it comes to automotive fluids and lubricants American mechanics think of every excuse not to use what the foreign car makers recommend. Cases in point:

Based on JDP you are well a little off.

1. The Toyota engineers say "Use only Dexron ATF" in the power steering system. The American mechanics substitute various brands of power steering fluid that are designed for American car power steering systems.

I disagree look at dex 3 ATF and most power steering fluid. They again are very close.

2. The Toyota engineers say "Use only DOT 3 brake fluid" in the braking system. The American mechanics won't use DOT 3, but will substitute DOT 4 or some other non-recommended fluid.

Really I have been using both in my cars/bikes etc for 16+ years and nothing happes happened. In fact I do not use DOT 3 in my ES.

3. The Toyota engineers say "Use a 50/50 mix of distilled water and red Toyota Long Life Antifreeze" in the cooling system. The American mechanics will substitute green and yellow antifreezes and mix them with tap water.

Hmm, I have seen & used distilled water for years (as outlined in there car manuals) and normal EG in Amercian cars without problems. Most time it is people use high silicate antifreeze since they base it on where they shop (walfart). Toyota seems to have more cooling issues with there older ES (below 99) then my Fords ever did. Hell I used green EG diesel coolant in my ES without issues. Also color has NOTHING to even do with it. Lexus uses a dye as they told me!

You must think all American engineers or America mechanics are morons. I understand your ways but I do see you post as being a little rude and offensive to it since I know many automotive engineers, many engineers in general and I am one myself (aerospace engineer). Are you an engineer???? Also you seems to hate all these American Engineers so much; then move over to Japan and become and engineer since we are so bad over here! Good luck since I know what it took for my degrees.

Case in point Lexus/Toyota has problems like everyone else. It is all not “roses and wine” on there end. If it was, there would not be common PROBLEMS on this forums with Lexus Toyota!

[mburnickas]

well, i definitely will save this info for later use.  one question though....why is this product labeled auto transmission fluid (with dextron) and not power steering fluid with dextron?  stands to reason that atf fluid would have different properties.  the mechanic i worked with said that the johnson's power steering fluid has slightly different viscosity, etc., which is why he prefers it.  also, if i want to switch out now to atf with dex, would he need to do a complete flush in order to change to atf?  or, can he just drain the PS fluid that is in there and put in atf with dex?  that ps fluid has been in the car three-four days only. 

i dread checking the color of the antifreeze.  bet you anything it's green.  argh!!!

Again the properties are so similar it is not even funny. I use ATF fluid in my cars that call for PS. I have also do the other way and no issues. Again the properties are so similar, do not even waste your time.

Yup, the ATF has different additives etc, hence one is made for ATF's and the other PS sys. Again the to fluids are very close in properties you care about. Unless you need high VI to keep from shearing, high HTHS to keep in again inline, lower pour etc.

Coolant is a dead issue. Do a search and look what I posted. Even Lexus Corp stated you do NOT have to use there fluid nor do color mean anything.

[monarch]

The early 90's ES owners who have have cooling system problems and related engine failures are the same ones who failed to use the factory original coolant mixture at replacement time (50% distilled water and 50% Toyota Long Life antifreeze), factory original thermostats, thermostat gaskets and radiator caps at replacement time.

During the first 5 years / 50,000 miles of ownership, early 90's ES owners did not have cooling system problems because their cooling systems were still in factory original, undeteriorated, unmodified condition.

Factory original stuff is more expensive and more inconvenient to for service shops to obtain and therefore eat into service shop profits. So that's why service shops do not want to use factory orignal stuff and tell their customers: "our stuff is good enough"

[mburnickas]

The early 90's ES owners who have have cooling system problems and related engine failures are the same ones who failed to use the factory original coolant mixture at replacement time (50% distilled water and 50% Toyota Long Life antifreeze), factory original thermostats, thermostat gaskets and radiator caps at replacement time. 

During the first 5 years / 50,000 miles of ownership, early 90's ES owners did not have cooling system problems because their cooling systems were still in factory original, undeteriorated, unmodified condition.

 

Factory original stuff is more expensive and more inconvenient to for service shops to obtain and therefore eat into service shop profits.  So that's why service shops do not want to use factory orignal stuff and tell their customers: "our stuff is good enough"

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Hate to tell you again, Lexus stated you do not need to use Toyota Long Life antifreeze. I noted this time and time again...for over 1.5 years with you.

Based on the properties of EG coolant, Lexus / Toyota is not really all that special. Take way there “less than 5% hydrated inorganic acids and organic acid salts” all the rest is what you can buy in normal stores if you look. Most stores sell 100% free silcate and phosphate free coolants. For me, anything that is ok for diesels if just fine for my autos.

[wandawoods]

owner's manual clearily states ATF dex II or III for power steering in black and white. I don't understand why anyone want to take the risk to use anything else other than that.

we've been thru the coolant business in great length couple of years ago in this forum. it's OK to use 'green' coolant that you can buy at corner gas station as long as:

1. completely 100% flush out the original 'red' coolant first. remeber more than 50% of the old coolant is trapped in the engine block, you must get them out, flush a whole system with water a few times over before adding new coolant

2. you must do 100% green coolant change say every 15K miles because they are not "long-life", and it can't never last as long as 50K like Toyota's red one.

3. if you ever decide to go back to 'red' coolant, again, 100% flush of the green coolant is a must. the additives are differnet in corner store 'green' coolant and long-life 'red' one, mix them will totally destroy all the protective properties of each other.

also, when you do oil change at those 'chain' store (ie. jeffy lube, firetsone...etc), never have the shop to 'top off' any fuilds which often is part of so-called "25-point service". you just don't know what they actually use to "top off". it can be a disater if they put green coolant to top off the long-life red coolant you already have, or vice versa.

[92LS4008888]

I think the confusion comes from the fact that LS power steering comes from the factory (Toyota Japan) with a clear/amber fluid in it. All Dexron that I know about is red in color. Power Steering fluid is also amber colored. Hence the mechanics put in power steering fluid.

So it is either the Japanese have a clear/amber form of Dexron (not that surprising given that Toyota has red coolant vs the typical green) or that Toyota does use a specific hydraulic fluid that is closer in formulation to Dexron than power steering fluid.

My gut feeling is that the Japanese use Dexron which is tinted amber.

In short use Dexron because that is what is stated ON THE COVER of the power steering fluid reservoir.

owner's manual clearily states ATF dex II or III for power steering in black and white. I don't understand why anyone want to take the risk to use anything else other than that.

we've been thru the coolant business in great length couple of years ago in this forum. it's OK to use 'green' coolant that you can buy at corner gas station as long as:

1. completely 100% flush out the original 'red' coolant first. remeber more than 50% of the old coolant is trapped in the engine block, you must get them out, flush a whole system with water a few times over before adding new coolant

2. you must do 100% green coolant change say every 15K miles because they are not "long-life", and it can't never last as long as 50K like Toyota's red one.

3. if you ever decide to go back to 'red' coolant, again, 100% flush of the green coolant is a must. the additives are differnet in corner store 'green' coolant and long-life 'red' one, mix them will totally destroy all the protective properties of each other.

also, when you do oil change at those 'chain' store (ie. jeffy lube, firetsone...etc), never have the shop to 'top off' any fuilds which often is part of so-called "25-point service". you just don't know what they actually use to "top off". it can be a disater if they put green coolant to top off the long-life red coolant you already have, or vice versa.

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[mburnickas]

You are not goint to "risk" anything using either or. The ATf will have more seal this and that in it. LOL

Also if you use the old Toyota long life coolant you do not need to flush since it is the same minus the red dye and 5% other stuff. You need to flush if you are converting to "dex-cool" type coolant from EG based. Not a EG to EG.

15K??? Never heard of that since I have been driving. 99.9% say every 3 years or 30K miles.

[prix]

Wow. I guess the greyhound got loose and is running down the information superhighway. It will take me years to parse this thread. Diverse opinions, but helpful...more said the better, IMHO.

You are not goint to "risk" anything using either or. The ATf will have more seal this and that in it. LOL

Also if you use the old Toyota long life coolant you do not need to flush since it is the same minus the red dye and 5% other stuff. You need to flush if you are converting to "dex-cool" type coolant from EG based. Not a EG to EG.

15K??? Never heard of that since I have been driving. 99.9% say every 3 years or 30K miles.

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[cardona6569]

Wow.  I guess the greyhound got loose and is running down the information superhighway.  It will take me years to parse this thread.  Diverse opinions, but helpful...more said the better, IMHO. 

 

You are not goint to "risk" anything using either or. The ATf will have more seal this and that in it. LOL

Also if you use the old Toyota long life coolant you do not need to flush since it is the same minus the red dye and 5% other stuff. You need to flush if you are converting to "dex-cool" type coolant from EG based. Not a EG to EG.

15K??? Never heard of that since I have been driving. 99.9% say every 3 years or 30K miles.

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Well: Nice discussion!

I have learn to use Dextron III, never used anything else in my Lex or Diamante who called for such fluids, because no one knows your lexus or Japanesse car better than the engineers back in Japan who designed the car and experimented with it.

The coolant, I would use the Original Toyota because is what the car came from factory and is designed to work with, but if you have to use some other one, there I do not see much issue, since the cooling system is simpler that the PS one and less prone to breakdown because of the change, unlike the PS. Using OEM thermostasts is a must, since the aftermarket ones do not have that much rust protection as the OEM, most thermostats fail because they become stuck, usually because rust in the part and bad maintenance of the cooling system. Usually an OEM thermostat in a properly serviced cooling system could last up to 7 or 8 years without problems as I seen in my experience.

Just my opinion,

C. PR

[914lps]

Boy, did I start a discussion or what. Well I'm still not finding an answer to the question. But I bet that if I had a failure of a part and put in a warranty claim, and it came out I used Power steering Fluid, instead of DexIII, I could see Lexus denying the claim due to the wrong fluid being used....

I also can't figure out why any dealer or shop would not use DexIII as stated ON THE CAP of the power Steering unit!...........

After all if it lead to a court case... They would look bad......

If you are wondering this is the problem that started the question:

http://us.lexusownersclub.com/forums/index...showtopic=25682

[mburnickas]

Boy, did I start a discussion or what.  Well I'm still not finding an answer to the question.  But I bet that if I had a failure of a part and put in a warranty claim, and it came out I used Power steering Fluid, instead of DexIII, I could see Lexus denying the claim due to the wrong fluid being used....

I also can't figure out why any dealer or shop would not use DexIII as stated ON THE CAP of the power Steering unit!...........

After all if it lead to a court case... They would look bad......

If you are wondering this is the problem that started the question:

http://us.lexusownersclub.com/forums/index...showtopic=25682

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Generally speaking, most PS fluids are near the same viscosity as ATF, since they both serve as hydraulic fluids.

A PS fluid from the bottle will have a slightly higher viscosity than ATF and is usually clear. I never liked the clear fluid as leaks are difficult to spot.

ATF is used in PS's because that way, one hydraulic fluid can be used for both the AT and the PS. Power steering fluid is just like ATF but without the additives that can be tough on the seals.

They are not going to deny you anything since they will not know the fluid type. some ATF use the same dye as PS.

Again the two are so close in properties you can use either or. You are worrying about nothing.

"After all if it lead to a court case... They would look bad......" The only way they will tell is by an oil tests. Outside of that, there is no way. Plus there is no way if you use either or it will fail. They can both do the same job since both are close minus the adds in the ATF (for atf seals).

Plus the odds of somethingh failing due to fluid is pretty slim.

[ArmyofOne]

Lets face it.  American mechanics and American car builders don't give a BLEEP about reliability and durability.  Americans don't even build one vehicle that is reliable and durable.  So it should be no surprize they treat the top quality automobiles made in other countries like junk.  Hence when it comes to automotive fluids and lubricants American mechanics think of every excuse not to use what the foreign car makers recommend.  Cases in point:

1. The Toyota engineers say "Use only Dexron ATF" in the power steering system.  The American mechanics substitute various brands of power steering fluid that are designed for American car power steering systems.

2. The Toyota engineers say "Use only DOT 3 brake fluid" in the braking system.  The American mechanics won't use DOT 3, but will substitute DOT 4 or some other non-recommended fluid.

3. The Toyota engineers say "Use a 50/50 mix of distilled water and red Toyota Long Life Antifreeze" in the cooling system.  The American mechanics will substitute green and yellow antifreezes and mix them with tap water.

In these ways and more American mechanics butcher Asian cars and contribute to their premature demise.  That's why I either steer clear of American auto service shops or buy the parts, fluids and lubes Toyota recommends separately and then tell the shop "use these parts and fluids."

←

1. A good mechanic will never EVER substitute anything for anything, except as a last resort. however there are bad ones out there.

2. NOT ALL american mechains will do this, if you have been to any kind of automotive school at all, you know that a system designed for DOT3 will corrode or not work at all with DOT4 or DOT5. DOT 5 is soo much more acidic. we use it in humvees, but if you put it in a civilian hummer, you would eat the master cylinder alive. YOU CANNOT switch brake fluids. if your system says DOT3, and your mechanic out in DOT4, you need to raise hell. the properties are alot different between DOT 3 and DOT 5. not sure about the differences between DOT3 and DOT4, but there is a difference.

In these ways and more American mechanics butcher Asian cars and contribute to their premature demise.  That's why I either steer clear of American auto service shops or buy the parts, fluids and lubes Toyota recommends separately and then tell the shop "use these parts and fluids."

whats to say they arent doing ti to american cars too? you have already heard my stance on american vs. asian cars, i dont believe that if properly cared for, any ne vehcile is any more freliable than another, except for a few cases.

THAT is a definate reason, why i am back in a higher mileage (65k on a 2002 is pretty high) DOMESTIC car. i cant (nor do i want) at this point inmy life to have a toyota or lexus nickel and diming me to death with maintenance costs. I had the dealer look up the service history on my ZX2. its never been in for a repair until i bougth it, it needed brake rotors and pads. its running fine. im now doing the second repair, a right front wheel bearing. it goes in tomorrow.

its all under warranty too, even at 65K.

so you know my thoughts on domestics vs foreign.