Will Time Cause Synthetic Oil Break Down?

[blk_on_blk]

This is such a weird dicussion, for so much of longevity is subjective... subjective to the condition of the engine. If you have some blow-by somewhere (valve guides, rings, etc), then you'll get more contaminants in your oil and it should be changed based on that. There are environmental concerns of where you are driving (dust, humidity, temperature) and more... a vehicle is exposed to more things that you can shake a stick at, so basing oil life just on miles isn't exactly comparative.

For me, it all comes down to preventive maintenance and cost. If I can go get a case of Mobil 1 synthetic (which is actually a blend) at Costco for like $24, get a couple filters for a few more bucks, and that lasts me two oil changes, doesn't that nearly equate the price to 'check' my oil (~$25/check) at regular intervals and see if the oil is good or not. I'd have new, clean oil with a new, clean filter for the same price (that's changing it myself of course). If it's new and clean oil, then you are assured there is not acidity build up, no deposit build up, no sludge, no contamination, etc. For me, that's a lot more insurance than buying more expensive oil and trying to see how long I can go between a drain/change/fill.

From a different perspective, we used synthetic oils in a "file cutting" operation in a manufacturing environment at my last workplace. We had a high-speed machine that cut high-carbon steel files. The cutters would dull at an amazing rate, since it was cutting the high-carbon steel. We tried so many cutting fluids and lubricants, and the Amsoil made a night and day difference. It extended the life of our cutters immensely, and far beyond anything else!! As far as an anti-wear lubricant, Amsoil is tops in my book.... as for my car in a low-wear environment, but exposed to everything and anything, I'll stick with a good synthetic, like Mobil 1, at a good price and just change it periodically.... nothing like scheduled maintenance to keep things running like a top. We do it in industry for a reason (whether it needs it or not), why not apply it to our residential "machinery"?

[mburnickas]

The main thing is to not put junk in there like LubeControl or CD2 type products which are solvents and will degrade the oil. If you have straight synthetic oil, it will last at least 5k miles regardless of the time. I'm talking years not decades as I have no info on this. Hope this was helpful.

Really? Lube control (LC) is junk.:chairshot:

Why you posted in an 7+ month old talk about incorrect info?????????????

I think you need to do some homework here or at least some UOA to prove this. Even Dyson Analysis says to use it. I used it and it made Amsoil lower all my wears DROP from 50% to 100% (as shown in my UOA's). LC helps oil not degrades it. Then again you are making comments about oil longevity with nothing to support anything? Please help us...LOL

Sure any synthetic (group 4, 5) can last 5K miles and I bet 100 to 1 some will be just about gone at 5K miles too. Amsoil ASL (group 4) comes to mind since my UOA showed is was dying.

Time will depleat oil (syntehtic group 3 4 or 5) since if Acids are in the oil, 99% out there, TBN's will decrease with time. I have seen it many times in my few (14 years of oil testing my oils).

I have used Amsoil for 13 years and other synthetic oils and I still have yet to see ANY real data that Mobil 1 is a blend. All the pimping is from BITOG with Tony's GC test. That is ONE guy here. For me, it takes more then one little post on BITOG to mean anything.

Lasty, if the outcome of UOA shows an oil is better then others, who cares.

[Scrub Hunter]

I don't really understand much of your post, but in my opinion solvent type products are junk. People pay a premium for a mixture of solvents when they can just get the solvents much cheaper. When using them you clean a lot of junk out of there and it ends up where? That's right in the oil and filter. So if you use Lubecontrols garbage you will just have junk in your oil, and you will pay $$$ for that priviledge. I wanted to look up information on oils and stuff because I am worried about the sludge issue, but I think using a solvent type product is the wrong way to go about it. Just a preference guy, no need to get all bent out of shape about it. Still looking for a easy type cleaner if anyone has any information. I also still stand by my statement that synthetic will not break down becasue of time unless you have a junk substance like LubeControl's LC20.

[mburnickas]

I don't really understand much of your post, but in my opinion solvent type products are junk. People pay a premium for a mixture of solvents when they can just get the solvents much cheaper. When using them you clean a lot of junk out of there and it ends up where? That's right in the oil and filter. So if you use Lubecontrols garbage you will just have junk in your oil, and you will pay $$$ for that priviledge. I wanted to look up information on oils and stuff because I am worried about the sludge issue, but I think using a solvent type product is the wrong way to go about it. Just a preference guy, no need to get all bent out of shape about it. Still looking for a easy type cleaner if anyone has any information. I also still stand by my statement that synthetic will not break down becasue of time unless you have a junk substance like LubeControl's LC20.

Ok, put it this way, your opinion is great but for me mine means nothing (to me) and same goes for most. I go by results (aka UOA‘s) not by opinions or posts.

I also disagree since not all solvents are the same here. You will NEVER know the mixture of LC (lube control) since it is proprietary data. Just like 99% of the other engine solvents.

Hate to tell you any fluids you add will end up in the filter, nothing new. If you “think” lube control is garbage so be it. I for one, think it will kick 99% of the other adds out there to shame (as I have tested and have pix to show them); do you?????????

A million dollar testing house LIKES it (LC) , next is it has been PROVEN to work in my cars UOA’s and even the state of TX gave them a few million to LC.

To close, you seem to be posting on fiction and no facts. I have used Amsoil alone for years and there wears where average at best; nothing to write home about. Added your “junk” LC and it made Amsoil a real performer aas there $30 year dealer pimp.

Also I stand by my statement that time will break down synthetic since it is proven in UOA’s; as I have seen in MY UOA‘s. That is a fact which I think you fail to show in your 4 posts.

Not bent out of shape at all. It is when someone comes on a forum and states junk this and that with nothing to support this, well……………

Also not starting anything but if you looking into UOA, oil types, solvants you would understand what I posted and it as validity, big time..

[blk_on_blk]

Just as a note, the Mobil Oil site says Mobil 1 is "fully synthetic" oil with SuperSyn... they also have info on their "extended wear" oils for longer use between oil changes (why not formulate them all for extended wear??). http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorO...FAQs.aspx#FAQs1

Hmm... I know, years ago, I read where it was a blend, but looks like it's fully synthetic now.

[SW03ES]

Lets keep it cool guys, all viewpoints are welcome. Lets discuss each others viewpoints fairly.

[Scrub Hunter]

I'm not exactly sure why he's in a twist, all that fancy jargon means nothing to me. My main point is that I have two vehicles that get maybe about 1000 miles a year, and they get nothing but Mobil one, and.... Even after three and four years, the oil still appears as if it has just been changed. I don't need an analysis to tell me this is good. My Toyota gets regular changes because it's my daily, but my two other vehicles have 3500 and 4000 miles and multiple years since the last change and they look wonderful.

[SW03ES]

Oil discussions get a couple members here...very...keyed up lol

[mburnickas]

I'm not exactly sure why he's in a twist, all that fancy jargon means nothing to me. My main point is that I have two vehicles that get maybe about 1000 miles a year, and they get nothing but Mobil one, and.... Even after three and four years, the oil still appears as if it has just been changed. I don't need an analysis to tell me this is good. My Toyota gets regular changes because it's my daily, but my two other vehicles have 3500 and 4000 miles and multiple years since the last change and they look wonderful.

I am not eyed up at all so everyone can calm down. :) I love oil debates but lets show some facts here too. Messing with oils has been a little hobby since back in the day (1990's) I have have learned somethings here and there. Oil color means nothing, zero, < 1 about oil condition, protection, EP levels, AO etc. If you are blindly going years without UOA and think it is good, you are guessing and playing with fire. You will be amazed on on fast oil depleates with acids in the oil (and the engine not being used). You can take Mobil with a TBN of around 8 and it will be abound 4 to 5 after sitting 1 year with less then 2,000 miles. Problem is many thing it is a linear depleation which it is not. The oil will be crap in less then another 6 months. That is why most oil people (amsoil, mobil) etc have a TIME line on there oils; they need too.

My very last drain using Amsoil, no more, was 4,300 miles and the oil was around 4 TBN and wears where ok to average. The OXD and NOX where too high I feel (30 to 40%) Just for REF the oil looked brand new.. Try to help since color means jack..........

My posts where not flipping out, going behind the shed to "fire it up" but etc. LOL Trying to help since you seem to be down the incorrect path or info here. You are flat out guessing what oil condition you have basing it on color alone . I would rather pay the $15 and get the facts and see what the condition the oil is in and the wear patterns.

I would try this and spend the $30 for 2 oil tests. Take LC, I know you think it is junk but you failed to test it, put LC in a dino oil and I bet 100 to 1 it will stay within same wear patterns, protection as a group 3 (blend) or group 4 synthetic oil (mobil 1, Amsoil ASL, Royal Purple etc). In the end it will be cheaper and give all the same benefits outside of PP. If anything was junk I would not be putting it in my Lexus, Kubota tractor, my GSXR1100, diesel pressure washer, and about 6 other family cars.

[SW03ES]

Just because you think he doesn't know as much as you do (which he probably doesn't since you obviously know a lot about the subject) doesn't give you the right to go postal on him. That might not be your intent, but thats how these posts come across. You sound crazed and insolent that anyone else would even fathom of disagreeing with you. Thats not fair...

[mburnickas]

Just because you think he doesn't know as much as you do (which he probably doesn't since you obviously know a lot about the subject) doesn't give you the right to go postal on him. That might not be your intent, but thats how these posts come across. You sound crazed and insolent that anyone else would even fathom of disagreeing with you. Thats not fair...

I did not say how much he knows or does not. I think he stated what he does. But when someone is new on any forum, here or anywhere and starts off with a #2 posting of a certain product is "junk" and say nothing to support it; well I bounce all over it in a direct manner.

My posts are to the point and that is it. If someone thinks(postal etc) this way, this is not correct nor how or my intent.

I like when people disagree and that is 100% fine and great. All I ever ask is please show supporting data to show why or how come.

Example, I could go on here (this forum) and state Lexus is junk and I am very sure about 20 members that have been here long enough would be all over it asking why, how come etc. That is all I ask for.

Am not crazed on this subject, nor postal, I love oil debates bigtime. I do less and less since most on any forum are based on opinions or incorrect data/info let alone facts. Nevermind the dealers pimping products.

SW - trust me it is ALL GOOD! :P

[Scrub Hunter]

I guess some of my own ignorance is fueled by so many people being upset about that LC company right now. LubeControl put charges on 100's of peoples credit cards for a product that was supposed to be shipped in mid November but hasn't been shipped to date. A lot of people are complaining about that, and personally I don't think a reputable company would have put charges on credit cards before even having a product ready. Add that to poor results in removing sludge by MANY people, and I'm not sure why anyone would stand by that company personally. My opinon is if you use Synthetic, you probably don't need additives. If the car has seen various quality oil changes and is sludge prone, maybe it would be good to find a reputable sludge product. That's all I'm say there Bud.

[mburnickas]

I guess some of my own ignorance is fueled by so many people being upset about that LC company right now. LubeControl put charges on 100's of peoples credit cards for a product that was supposed to be shipped in mid November but hasn't been shipped to date. A lot of people are complaining about that, and personally I don't think a reputable company would have put charges on credit cards before even having a product ready. Add that to poor results in removing sludge by MANY people, and I'm not sure why anyone would stand by that company personally. My opinon is if you use Synthetic, you probably don't need additives. If the car has seen various quality oil changes and is sludge prone, maybe it would be good to find a reputable sludge product. That's all I'm say there Bud.

LC stated, that is right STATED people would be charged UP FRONT back in Oct I think for the pre-order of FP on BITOG.

Now that being stated I think LC is having issues with shipping and other items. So there are pulling their #$%^% with the shipping. That is why I did NOT pre-order FP3000. Even they, LC, aka president Jeff stated this in his posts. All this is nothing new.

The people, select few, on BITOG knew this very well upfront so shame on them for their pre-ordering. This happens at times with new to market products. Many companies do this very same thing when they NEED capital upfront to finance the product. Is it right, in my eyes no, but it is the nature of the game. Plus I really do not think the ”select few” BITOG players are a major revenue for LC.

Hell many (BITOG) users will whine over there about anything and anything. I take what most say on BITOG with a HUGE grain of salt since the owner (Tony) is so narrow minded it is not funny. He caters to the sponsors and the website is not as “open” as you think. Just look at the add forum. It is a complete joke; then try and post something not PRO ARX. You will be banned or thread removed. I have seen it many times in 3 years out there. He “funnels” all the threads to his/their linkings. If not, threads are removed. Nice ha. I am one of many that have stated the same thing.Now you need to sign up juse to view threads. 100 to 1 this action is based on $$$$ from sponsors . More "signups" more $$$$$.

I have had great results on removing sludge with LC. Not starting anything but have you even used the product? I would try it.

Just to comment on your last post, in my opinion and years in testing my oils, any oil can benefit from Lc20 and a select few other adds. Amsoil ASL (group 4) is a good oil but it did WAY better with LC20 in it; as outlined in the UOA. The UOA with and without LC using Amsoil is on this very forum.

So far, the best product I have found, based on my little testing in two separate cars and pictures (ARX vs. LC), is LC20. Is it the best in the world, nope; but does what it says and they stand behind there product and help the customer. Maybe seafoam is better but it does not have the testing from Dyson behind it and no long term results like LC.

Lc20, Jeff states how it is and no BS, no lies, no misinformation and quick replies. AutoRX (Frank) I have caught in many lies, BS and WAY to much incorrect information; but, I am giving Frank a second chance since I take Dyson oil analysis comments to heart. Terry (owner) said I would like it and it works. First round it did zero. So I am in the process again and will have more pics. BUT I need to talk to Frank via email before I post anything since last time he got all worked up of my negative website on it.

To close, you want a cheap good reputable sludge product you can buy at most any place, use seafoam. I am not going postal etc, but helping you with this. I feel you think because 100 little people on BITOG pre-ordered something means that a product does not work. I say try it and then comment.

[Scrub Hunter]

Before replying to this I did some research on your comment that LC20 is better than Autorx. It seamed that most people overthere prefer Autorx hands down. I think I am going to try Seafoam first, then Autorx. But the more I look at LubeControl the more I have no desire to try it. I keep seeing posts where the guy isn't even explaining the benefits of his new product, lol. Once I get my car clean, I will probably just stick with Synthetic.

[mburnickas]

Before replying to this I did some research on your comment that LC20 is better than Autorx. It seamed that most people overthere prefer Autorx hands down. I think I am going to try Seafoam first, then Autorx. But the more I look at LubeControl the more I have no desire to try it. I keep seeing posts where the guy isn't even explaining the benefits of his new product, lol. Once I get my car clean, I will probably just stick with Synthetic.

Of course people on Bitog like Autorx. That is why I already stated in my last post only PRO ARX threads exist over there, thank Tony for that. There have been unhappy people with ARX and the threads are gone. I know that for a fact.

Again all I am saying is I used both items and have talked to both people (president of LC or Frank the "re-bottler" of ARX chemcials). I stated before all the reasons. On the first round LC won. I am in the middle of another round and this is my last round. If LC wins again, bye bye ARX. If ARX wins I will promote it but I need more confirmation then just reading posts on BITOG; which I trust very little at this point. I need to see the delta, not read it.

Just to state another factoid, I also have 1 gallon of LC and FP in front of me AND 5 bottles left of ARX.

LC does not need to explain anything; hate to tell you but neither does Frank. Frank only knows his standard repies. Ask him a more then general questions he cannot answer it. He needs his mods (Daryl or Rich) to answer them. I trust Rich and Darly more then Frank at times since Frank can go from nice to flipping out in 1 second. It seems he is nicer in emails then public forums. You would think it would be the other way around. Not knocking the guy but at least know the product you re-bottle. LC has been in business over 60 years. AutoRX only 6 years.

I think you wanted to use ARX before you even made your first post. That part is fine and great. The part I am beating into you is that without testing or "seeing" anything you are wasting your money and guessing. Also you stated your oil stays clean for years; why do you want to use ARX when it is clean? You need to know where you are (to start) before you can see any product working.

Again many on BITOG (aka threads) are sucked in the ARX hole. There also have been posts that say to use ARX when driving a new car off the lot. BONG!!!!! You are looking at how LC is handing selling there FP3000 new-to market fuel add and about 6 to 9 users on BITOG whinning. Is that a great way to judge a product by its cover? If that was the case I would never have tried ARX since Frank has been very rude at times (alot for a "inventor" and PR person), very hard to understand and has lied in public forums. That to me is not a good way to treat a customer. I can take delays since they happen but lies, nope.

But thanks for the PM to me about Drama. You want my name on BITOG, talk to Tony.

This is my last "nice and to-the-point "drama post. I can post pages on why how come but I think you know what you wanted. And lastly, ARX is a solvant based, look it up based on MSDS properties. When people say it is natural gets to me and a lie.

How this turned into a commerical for ARX or LC I will never know. LOL :)

[Scrub Hunter]

Hey Bro,

I;m not sure how any of this pertains to how synthetic will break down overtime? See my point now about adding all kinds of extra information about stuff nobody knows about?

[mburnickas]

Hey Bro,

I;m not sure how any of this pertains to how synthetic will break down overtime? See my point now about adding all kinds of extra information about stuff nobody knows about?

Really it all started when you posted on Dec 26 2006, 07:08 PM.

So I wheeled in :) and just commenting, based on my use, of the "junk" product and the other product you think it better. And commenting on your last post (Scrub Hunter @ Dec 28 2006, 11:16 PM).

Synthetic will, does, etc break down as I have stated several times. Do some UOA's and you will find out. Synthetic oil is not some miracle product that does not break down and last for years. If you think it does you are mistaken.

[blk_on_blk]

Isn't this conversation kind of splittin' hairs. I mean, all good oils yield in excellent lubrication... if they didn't, people would get scored/seized bearings, excessive wear, etc. I don't think any quality additive is particularly detremental to an engine. I mean, I know guys who have engines with a couple hundred thousand miles on them with dino oil... they just keep it clean and changed. As with any oil, if you keep it in good condition, it will perform. "Better performance" means what? a touch better mileage? Extended life? I mean, the ES engine isn't a 'performance' engine... it's naturally aspriated, medium compression ratio, mild camming... it should run about the same with any good oil in the crankcase, right?

[mburnickas]

Correct to so extent. It also depends on how you define excellent lubrication. Example, is having 10 ppm Fe ok, or do you want 2ppm of Fe. For me, I know what I want. Do you want 44% Nox or do you want 22% NOX and so on. While any oil will not kill a motor, bearings etc but one has lower wears and has lower sludge producing agents in it (and so on). And the lower is better in the long run from an engine standpoint.

I have spent the $35 to $45 (on oil only per change) Mobil, Amsoil, etc and so far, they are real good but not all they are cracked/pimped up to be. For me, I will take LC and throw in a dino (group 2) or a cheap blend (group 3 synthetic) and gladly take the same benefits etc of an oil costing 2 to 3 time more. They all break down, for me, is how much do I want to throw away of my beans.

You need to factor in what engine you have (tell by UOA's), $$$ you want to spend, time/duration you want to put on oil (based on UOA) and what is the cost vs performance/protection.

[Scrub Hunter]

For me, I will take LC and throw in a dino (group 2) or a cheap blend (group 3 synthetic) and gladly take the same benefits etc of an oil costing 2 to 3 time more.

Oh Common now, you are telling wise tales Bro if your saying that adding LC20 stuff to dirt cheap Dino oil makes it as good as a high quality synthetic. I'm wondering why your posts are so much different than all the others on BITOG. Nobody remotely says that LubeControls LC20 is anything but a mildly helpful additive, and you say it is "miracle" additive that takes Cheap Dino oil and makes it the quality of the highest quality synthetic. Lol, you Bro's in the states have a tongue for some exaggerations. You seam to complain that other people are "pimping" products but it seams like you are going a little overboard here, wouldn't say so? This thread is losing steam quick with wild claims I will leave it at that. There is nothing as good as the high quality synthetics for lubrication and protection for your cars, and time is less of a factor than milage IMO.

[mburnickas]

For me, I will take LC and throw in a dino (group 2) or a cheap blend (group 3 synthetic) and gladly take the same benefits etc of an oil costing 2 to 3 time more.

Oh Common now, you are telling wise tales Bro if your saying that adding LC20 stuff to dirt cheap Dino oil makes it as good as a high quality synthetic. I'm wondering why your posts are so much different than all the others on BITOG. Nobody remotely says that LubeControls LC20 is anything but a mildly helpful additive, and you say it is "miracle" additive that takes Cheap Dino oil and makes it the quality of the highest quality synthetic. Lol, you Bro's in the states have a tongue for some exaggerations. You seam to complain that other people are "pimping" products but it seams like you are going a little overboard here, wouldn't say so? This thread is losing steam quick with wild claims I will leave it at that. There is nothing as good as the high quality synthetics for lubrication and protection for your cars, and time is less of a factor than milage IMO.

I will say this and I am not going postal here.

#1. Show me where I said "miracle".

#2, Have you even used LC20, ARX, Amsoil etc? If so, please post UOA's. If not...............

#3 Show me where a high quality synthetic benefits anything outside of PP (in a every day car)?

#4. Show me where a dino along LC cannot perform the same as a "highest quality synthetic". Amsoil has be used for years in my engines for years and its a PAO and ester oil based oil. LC helped this "highest quality synthetic" bigtime. To me, Amsoil etc is not worth the $$$$; based on my testing (UOA) bro.

If you can post answers to these 4 questions based on your use, UOA, etc in your cars, you are better then me. It seem like the only reason why you are commenting on this is based on "readings" on BITOG. Mine is from testing in my cars, not taking BITOG posts as the bible.

To close, all I am saying is that you are showing none, zero proof that "good as the high quality synthetics for lubrication and protection for your cars, and time is less of a factor than milage IMO". I have shown the benefit of LC (based on UOA) long before this thread. I liked synthetic engine oils since the late 80's. With the new SM ratings on oils, the gap between dino and synthetic is VERY small.

...off soap box and time for a little "long island"

[Scrub Hunter]

Show me your proof that LC20 plus Dino oil is better for a motor than a high quality synthetic, lol? It is obviously your position that you think LC20 is a miracle product. If it's such a miracle then why do they need to charge customers credit cards months before they even have a batch, lol? No company with any itegrity would do this. CMon Bro what gives, you are an LubeControl employee?

[mburnickas]

Show me your proof that LC20 plus Dino oil is better for a motor than a high quality synthetic, lol? It is obviously your position that you think LC20 is a miracle product. If it's such a miracle then why do they need to charge customers credit cards months before they even have a batch, lol? No company with any itegrity would do this. CMon Bro what gives, you are an LubeControl employee?

If LC is so bad or junk why did it make Amsoil a real oil? You are stuck on the pre-order deal. That I would say go back to BITOG and post there. I guess you have never ordered products before. Lets see I just ordered a 4000 PSI pump ($500). Paid and not coming in till Feb 2007. Just ordered another R/C heli that was $3,000 and not coming in till late Jan (paid).

Ask Shelby or Frank on there forum or his if I work for LC. I just know what works based on UOA. You are going 100% by posts on BITOG and not even your own use.

So to close and I am done here synthetic has a life as noted in your UOA.

it is all good!

[Scrub Hunter]

If LC is so bad or junk why did it make Amsoil a real oil?

I emailed this to a Amsoil Jobber to see if he knew what you were talking about and his response was this."LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL." He has never even heard of LC and he said AMSOIL is real oil because of years of R&D and millions of dollars in investing in real formulas. I guess it's your opinion that LubeControl has made a better product than AMSOIL with the money they have precharged their customers credit cards on? Lol. your ship is sinking with every post. AMSOIL is a great synthetic oil all by itself.

[mburnickas]

If LC is so bad or junk why did it make Amsoil a real oil?

I emailed this to a Amsoil Jobber to see if he knew what you were talking about and his response was this."LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL." He has never even heard of LC and he said AMSOIL is real oil because of years of R&D and millions of dollars in investing in real formulas. I guess it's your opinion that LubeControl has made a better product than AMSOIL with the money they have precharged their customers credit cards on? Lol. your ship is sinking with every post. AMSOIL is a great synthetic oil all by itself.

Of course a dealer ($35 a year)would say that. They are promoting there oil (amsoil). Most dealers are clueless too. I was a dealer for over 10 years here. It is funny that a million dollar testing house (dyson analysis and well respected on BITOG) who tests thousands of oils is the one that advised to me to use LC. This is one of (2) products he ONLY advises people to use.

Email Terry (owner of Dyson) on what he thinks; better yet, look at his pots on BITOG about Amsoil. He is right on. Amsoil is not all it is cracked up to be. Sorry Scrub