Lexus Has Repurchased Our Rx330

[RX in NC]

Yes, very troubling - keep me posted on your further research. Maybe this is indeed the magic answer to the well-known RX transmission troubles.

But remember - when I pulled the drain plug out of my so-called 'front differential' (located directly behind the transmission pan), the quart or so of fluid that flowed out of it was PINK. It sure looked like T-IV fluid to me. And if it is in fact T-IV fluid, where else could it be coming from other than what I poured down the transmission dipstick tube into the pan? This certainly indicates a shared fluid system to me.

My Lexus transmission tech just returned my call from earlier this morning. He again confirmed that we are in fact dealing with a shared fluid system here. He said that both components pull the T-IV fluid from the transmission pan.

What color is your typical 90-weight oil? If the answer is AMBER, I believe my wife's RX is just fine because I never opened a drain plug anywhere underneath her vehicle that led to the draining of an amber-colored fluid....

[Booyah]

Well, I guess I could persuide here to a new GS300? Possible I guess

[Lexusfreak]

Well, I guess I could persuide here to a new GS300?  Possible I guess

←

An AWD one perhaps!? :whistles: ;) B)

[wwest]

THE ANSWER!

We were both right....sorta..

But mostly I WAS WRONG.

The front and center diff'ls are a part of the transaxle and run in ATF.

The PTO (Power Take Off), the right halfshaft, and the VC run in gear oil.

An oil seal around the right halfshaft separates the two volumes.

So you, and the dealers, are correct in that the diff'l drain plug should be removed and the fluid drained from there also.

Thanks for catching that for me before I "wasted" another 4 quarts.

[RX in NC]

Again, thanks for your follow-up. I'm glad to have you confirm that my wife hasn't been driving around with an empty 'front differential' case.

If I were you, I wouldn't drop your transmission pan just yet. Try draining both plugs, cleaning them thoroughly, and refilling with fresh fluid. You'll probably need between 4 and 5 quarts. I'll bet you'll find that your new fluid will stay cleaner for longer.

If you're still dissatisfied after doing the above, at that point I would go ahead and drop the pan so hang onto your new gasket just in case you decide to do so.

You could elect to try a flush machine. Some enthusiasts swear by them, but some also believe they lead to further problems because they dredge up particles and filings that have settled in and been captured by the magnet inside your 'front differential' drain plug. After doing quite a bit of research on this topic, I've decided that performing the flush process on a transmission system that is so shaky to begin with (i.e. the RX300 AWD) is a risk that I'm not willing to take.

However, no one has answered my question so I'll pose it once again: What color is 90-weight oil?

[wwest]

So, the front and center diff'ls are an integral part of the transaxle and run in ATF. The PTO (Power Take Off), right halfshaft, VC (viscous clutch), and tailshaft ring and pinion run in ~90 weight gear oil.

Two oil seals to keep the two oil volumes separated.

Suppose the oil seals leak slightly and the gear oil, over time, contaminates the ATF.

Or even more likely...

The VC operates by heating the viscous fluid sealed within the VC case. In due course the heated case of the VC will heat the gear oil and cause it to expand and with enough volume will force its way into the ATF side.

ATF contaminated with 90 weight gear oil cannot be a good thing.

Are more AWD transaxles failing prematurely than FWD??

Is that why, maybe, the VC was dropped in 04??

90 weight gear oil is very close to the color, very dark, of the stuff I drained from my transaxle except for the slight red tinge.

[RX in NC]

The only way for you to know for sure whether or not your own transmission pan is contaminated with 90-weight gear oil is to find a lab that can accurately test a sample of fluid that you drain from your pan. If you decide to go this route, I would provide that lab with a sample of brand-new T-IV fluid as well as a sample of brand-new 90-weight gear oil.

Given all the information we've discussed in this thread today, what course of action are you planning to take?

[wwest]

Funny you should mention that...

When I drained the first batch I filled two half-pint glass jars with the burnt fluid, "mid-stream". They are still setting on the windowsill of the garage at the moment because I assumed some of the "debris" would settle out over time. None has.

So yes, I need to find a lab.

In the meantime, tomorrow, the pan will get dropped after I drain the transaxle AND the diff'l!

[wwest]

Okay, first, how many, if any, RX330 owners have experienced the "bumped from behind" symptom just before coming to a full stop, or the "slingshot effect" during coastdown, throttle closed, from say 30-50MPH?

If the answer is none then just ignore the following.

My 2001 AWD RX300 exhibits both of the above symptoms. The seat of the pants "feeling" of both of these symptoms is as if the clutch were just disengaged with a manual transmission. I have two theories as to why this is happening and neither of them, or one, or even both, may be the actual case. Theory one is that the transmission is being upshifted to reduce engine braking, allowing the vehicle to coast farther and thereby increase fuel economy. Theory two is that the vehicle is being upshifted just before coming to a stop to prevent potential loss of control due to engine braking at the front wheels on a possibly icy roadbed.

Think about this. If you were driving a FWD vehicle with a clutch would you EVER downshift to use engine braking on an icy roadbed?

Yet don't we fully expect a FWD's automatic transaxle to downshift into first as we slow to a stop.

Personally I think the designers have made a wise choice here, they have no way of detecting the roadbed conditions as you come to a stop so the best action on their part is to write the firmware to provide an upshift ("disengage the clutch to prevent loss of directional control" ) when slowing to a final stop and only shift down into first once the vehicle is FULLY stopped.

As I have already said, if your RX330 doesn't have the above symptoms then it is needless to read farther.

But if the firmware in the RX330 engine and transaxle ECU is doing the same thing as my RX300 then I can see how that might lead to some serious indecisiveness on the part of the firmware.

The firmware initially detects a coastdown situation, brakes on or not, but the gas pedal fully released, so it begins the upshift sequence. Now you start "dithering" the gas pedal because you're being indecisive about whether or not you can accelerate quickly enough to safely merge into the opening in the adjacent freeway lane.

According to the firmware the transaxle hasn't yet completed the upshift sequence and now you're giving it mixed signals, dithering the gas pedal, about what it should do next.

According to the shop manual the transaxle servo system's feedback, the way it tells when and what gear ratio the transaxle is actually in, is via comparing the transaxle's input shaft speed with/against the output shaft speed. In other words it commands a certain gear ratio via electrically actuating the appropriate solenoids and only knows that if the commanded shift is complete when/if the computed input/output ratio indicates that it is.

And what if your own indecisiveness, your "dithering" of the gas pedal, is confusing the firmware with regards how far to downshift? Remember that once the ECU commands a downshift, say into 3rd, that "shift" must be verified to be completed via the input/output computation. So the shift into 3rd has just begun and you relax the pressure on the gas pedal ever so slightly.

Oops, the firmware now decides you should only downshift into 4th.

Oh, my RX300 only has three forward gears plus OD so there is not as much "opportunity" for the firmware to be indecisive!

[SRK]

Gl-5 80W-90 gear oil is a dark greenish brown colour with a distinct odour, which borders on unpleasant, perhaps sulphurous to some. Engine oil has little odour, and ATF of whatever type has a sweet and mildly pleasant odour when new.

[RX in NC]

wwest,

Did you drop your transmission pan over the weekend?

How much "gunk" had accumulated on the magnetic tip of your "front differential" drain plug?

And finally, how many fresh quarts of T-IV fluid did you have to add once you drained and cleaned as much as possible?

[wwest]

Sorry, too many HONEYDEWS....

[wwest]

Okay, done deal.

Drained pan and diff'l case.

If anything the fluid I drained was even worse, darker in color, than the first batch. Didn't smell as burnt though. The darker color may have been the result of draining it cold this time. The last time I ran the car first on the assumption that particles, debris, would remain in suspension long enough to drain them along with the fluid.

The bottom of pan was covered with ~16th of an inch of what looked to me like powdered pencil lead.

Three flat magnets stuck on the inside of the pan and none of them including the diff'l plug maget had an undue level of metalic particles attached.

No new answers I guess.

[RX in NC]

How many quarts of T-IV were required to refill your pan to the proper level?

[wwest]

Lexus only sold me four, insisted that would do the trick. But four doesn't even show on the dipstick so a 5th is obviously required. I only drained 4.5 quarts so maybe they were playing it "safe".

[RX in NC]

When I did my wife's drain-and-fill back in November, I made sure I had five quarts of clean T-IV fluid on hand just to be sure (the job wound up requiring exactly four quarts). For safety's sake it makes sense to buy five quarts prior to a drain-and-fill and I would probably get six quarts if I was going to drop my pan as you did. Always better to be safe than sorry, and the extra bottle or two can certainly sit on my shelf in the garage waiting for the next time.

[mikey00]

When I did my wife's drain-and-fill back in November, I made sure I had five quarts of clean T-IV fluid on hand just to be sure (the job wound up requiring exactly four quarts).  For safety's sake it makes sense to buy five quarts prior to a drain-and-fill and I would probably get six quarts if I was going to drop my pan as you did.   Always better to be safe than sorry, and the extra bottle or two can certainly sit on my shelf in the garage waiting for the next time.

←

My 01 takes exactly 4 qts but I did not know about the front differential plug the 2 times I drained it. When my wife comes back with the car I am going to look for the front diff plug. I guess I should include that in my next drain. That may bring it up to about 5 qts. Do you have a cooler, which comes with tow prep package which was standard equip in 01. That may be the 1 qt. difference.

[wwest]

"do you have a cooler"....hmmmmm......DAMN.

Yes.

Didn't think of that, probably should have opened the hose and drained that too. Have to look and see if its mostly above the drain point.

That probably would definitely mean 5 quarts.

[wwest]

Weird, life is sometimes so WEIRD.

Just returned from Lexus to pick up a quart of transaxle fluid.

Dropped by the service manager's desk to see if he had any input on why my RX300 needs 15,000 fluid changes.

He said that it doesn't, all they do is inspect the fluid and if its okay then they abide by the owners manual!

I reminded him of having told me that Lexus now required fluid changes every 15,000 miles. His response was that only the dealers were saying that and Lexus corporate had recently sent them a memo ordering all dealers to abide by the book.

Strange.

I have an appointment Tuesday AM for them to look into this.

[RX in NC]

The short answer is "better safe than sorry".

Why take a chance? Do what I do and change your Type T-IV fluid every 30,000 miles. Purchase it from a Toyota parts department and save yourself some money.

Keep us posted on how your Tuesday appointment turns out....

[wwest]

Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2004 8:05 AM

Subject: No Summary [incident: 040723-000003]

Recently you submitted a question to the Lexus Customer Satisfaction

Department.

We will assume your issue has been resolved if we do not hear from you

within 120 hours.

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[===> Please enter your reply below this line <===]

You're basically asking me to allow the fox into my henhouse.

Everyone is well aware of Lexus dealer's wish, desire, etc, to convince

Lexus owners that all of them should abide by the rough service maintenance

schedule. None of us should be placing blame on the dealers for these

efforts, they're stuck with an extraordinarily reliable product line and

most if not all are single marque shops.

I'm asking Lexus to explain why the manual states that no preventative

maintainence is required when the fluid in my vehicle, subjected to NOTHING

like rough service, seemingly should have been changed out at ~30k miles.

[===> Please enter your reply above this line <===]

If your issue remains unresolved, please update this question here.

Subject

No Summary

Discussion Thread

Response (John Doe) 07/27/2004 08:05 AM

Dear Mr. West,

Thank you for contacting Lexus Customer Satisfaction regarding your

2001 RX 300. I apologize for any confusion regarding the transmission fluid

change intervals.

For proper diagnosis of the transmission fluid, we recommend that an

authorized Lexus dealership inspect your vehicle. Your Lexus dealer will be

able to properly determine and explain why the transmission fluid would have

to be changed at certain mileage and what factors could influence the fluid.

Please contact your local Lexus dealer to make inspection arrangements. I am

sorry for any inconvenience this situation may cause you.

If you would like to discuss your concerns further, you can also reach

the Lexus Customer Satisfaction Department at 1-800-255-3987, Monday through

Friday, 6:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m., Pacific Time.

Sincerely,

John Doe

Lexus Customer Satisfaction

Customer (wwest 07/26/2004 05:32 PM

"may last 60,000 miles or longer..."

This is in total and complete conflict with what I see in my owners

manual.

Has Lexus done anything to advise DIY owners of this change in

position?

And even that doesn't explain why the fluid in my 01 AWD RX300 appears

to be burnt and discolored.

Since the manual doesn't indicate a fluid change necessaty before

120,000 miles, can you give me an explanation as to why a "lightly driven",

absolutely no towing, mostly myself and wife as the only passengers, and in

Seattle's temperate climate, a vehicle such as mine would need a fluid

change at 38,000 miles?

Response (John Doe) 07/26/2004 08:28 AM

Dear Mr. West,

Thank you for contacting Lexus Customer Satisfaction regarding your

2001 RX 300.

Per our technical department:

1) Transmission fluid should be inspected as recommended in the

Owner's Manual Supplement or Owner's Manual. (This is typically every 30,000

miles or 24 months, whichever comes first.)

2) The dealer will check the fluid for signs of discoloration, a burnt

odor, or signs of sediment. If the fluid shows any of these signs, the fluid

should be changed.

3) If a vehicle is driven under light usage, the transmission fluid

may last 60,000 miles or longer.

Please contact the Service department at your local Lexus dealership

for more information and proper diagnosis of the transmission fluid.

If you would like to discuss your concerns further, you can also reach

the Lexus Customer Satisfaction Department at 1-800-255-3987, Monday through

Friday, 6:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m., Pacific Time.

Sincerely,

John Doe

Lexus Customer Satisfaction

Customer (WWest) 07/23/2004 10:46 AM

In all my years of driving automatic transmission vehicles, mostly

Fords (first was a 56, purchased at Westside Ford in Seattle in 1961) I have

NEVER changed out transmission fluid as a scheduled maintenance matter. Two

of those Fords, a 68 and an 72 SW, were driven well over 200K miles,

admittedly with transmission overhauls somewhere after 100k.

So I wasn't surprised to find that my 01 AWD RX doesn't recommend any

scheduled maintenance fluid change out at all.

What did surprise me was the discoloration and slight burnt odor of

the fluid when I checked it during the 38K oil change.

What??

My RX has the factory trailer towing package, includes extra fluid

cooling heat exchanger in the right front fender well, and the hitch was

removed and stored away the week I bought it. And it certainly hasn't endured

anything I would refer to as rough service.

When I previously posted this news someone else came back and said

they had received a letter from the factory indicating a transmission fluid

drain was now recommended at each 15k mile interval.

Anyone else receive that notice?

So.

Is the RX series automatic transmission design not fully up to the

task at hand?

It also occurs to me that there is a possibility that the extra

heating provided by the VC in AWD models may not have been accounted for

during the AWD design phase. The VC does heat to fairly extraordinary levels when it is asked to "work", but I have little doubt that the VC fluid itself can

endure the extra heat. But is the hermetically sealed case that contains this

fluid "cooled" by the transmission fluid? Or is there just too much heat

transfer via the metal to metal mounting contact from the VC heat to the tranny fluid?

In the meantime I guess I'll drain and flush the fluid and install

new. Also thinking seriously about adding an electric fan to force airflow

through the fender well mounted fluid cooler. It's pretty obvious that there can

be no really "free" flow of cooling air through this cooler, likely not even

at hwy speeds.

[Mike Wells]

Well, this will be my last post on this site.  Last week Lexus completed the rupurchase of our 2004 RX 330 because of the well documented transmission isssues.  Vehicle had about 15,000 miles and was almost two years old.  Repurchased for $2,000 less than we paid, including taxes and fees.

My wife now has another SUV.  She came home the the other day almost in tears of joy on how great it was to have a vehicle with a transmission the didn't hesitate and malfunction.  She's starting to get used to not rocking back and forth with the shifting of the transmission.

Some may say live with it, but we disagree.  Its like living with a tooth ache, you can do it, but when you get it taken care of it feels sooooooooooooooo good. 

Good luck and good bye.

←

[Mike Wells]

I just joined this forum. I have had my RX330 for a year, and have not been satisfied with the shifting either. I am resolved to the softer shift and never complained about that, but did complain about long hesistation on forced downshift and the feel of free floating, or fuel starvation, while trying to accelerate through a turn.

My dealer, or service advisor, says this is normal throttle by wire, learn to live with it. I can't believe that. Is this a prevalent problem that is experienced by a lot of RX330 owners, a known problem to Lexus, does a service bulletin exist, is there a hidden warranty item for this ? My RX has the towing package, but no towing is involved.

Please give more info on your experience and how you dealt with it. I love the vehicle, but this part is annoying.

Thanks

Mike

[wwest]

Accelerating through a turn....

This could very well be your VSC/Trac system activating and dethrottling the engine to prevent "impending" loss of control due to wheelslip from both the high lateral loading of the front tires and the high engine driving torque.

Just a guess, mind you.

[Mike Wells]

Accelerating through a turn....

This could very well be your VSC/Trac system activating and dethrottling the engine to prevent "impending" loss of control due to wheelslip from both the high lateral loading of the front tires and the high engine driving torque.

Just a guess, mind you.

←

Thanks for the quick reply. That is one I had not thought of. Still I don't like it. I want to drive through a turn, not float through in neutral, especially with fwd.