What Has Mercedes Done?

[craigamuir]

So in my quest for a 95 or newer LS400 to replace my Camaro, a pal who owns a foreign car repair shop and sells cars too ( I used to work for him) offers me a deal on a 97 E320 - he says it is a much better car than the LS and "has more character".  Yeah right.

The Benz idled in such a way that you could feel every cylinder fire.  Noisy power steering pump.  CD changer in the trunk.  Lousy sound from the stereo system too. Touchy brakes, goofy transmission shift program.  Looked good inside, nice seats, handled well, but it just didn't do it for me.  I passed.  He is not pleased.  Toughies.

I need another Lexus.  I was surprised at the rough feeling of the Benz compared to my 92 LS. 

Anyone else experience this with Benzes?

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Several of my friends drive E-320s. I took one to lunch the other day in my 00 LS400. After a while he said 'thank God my wife hasn't ridden in one of these. I'd never hear the end of it. She refuses to ride in my car because the seats are like concrete. I tell her that Germans like it that way and besides, it's the only way to get a really good car."

[90LS400Lexus]

My aunts 04' Mercedes S600 is smooth as silk, but it is a $120K car. Smoothness should be paramount.

Anyone else experience this with Benzes?

[SW03ES]

In my experience with Benzes they're always one whole size class off of Lexus and BMW. The C Class Mercedes is terrible, cheap plastic, tiny econocar look and space, comparable to the IS300 but not the ES or the BMW 3 series. To compare to the 3 series or ES you have to look at an E Class for $20-$30,000 more which is similar in size (to the ES) in equipment and in quality. When you compare the E to the LS (same price class) its no comparison, the LS is bigger, smoother, faster, and has much more room. The S430, no equipment at the price base (which is the same as a loaded LS430) not even xenon headlights. You have to move up to something like an S500 designo edition at almost $100,000 to equal the quality and the equipment on the $70,000 Ultra Luxury LS model or the $80,000 745Li. That 3 pointed star is nice, but not worth 30g's. I will never buy a Mercedes until they get some sort of realistic grip on their pricing. Beautiful cars and I'd love to own one someday (owning a Benz is just something you should do) but not at those kind of price premiums.

[SKperformance]

The new E steps into the S class interior styleing with chrome accents around the bezels and a much nicer luxurious looking interior not a hand made one as before.

the E even has a small chrome button above the hazard button when pressed moves a panel out of the way to reveal a secret compartment.

The E and clk are worlds away from the old designs the s is still average interior to me.

The g looks like things were put into it because it could only fit in that spot really cluttered looking.

the c has its bracket for what the buyer pays for.

Not great but they didn;t buy and S

havn;t driven a smart KA yet so i can;t comment.

ML is still crap inside as always.

The merc seats remind me of the old LS seats with springs in them.

I actually almost got burned in a clk today when i turned the seat heater on as it has moved out of poistion and is right under the leather and has turned that spot into rock .

[blake918]

IMO, nothing rides and looks like a Mercedes. They all feel like they weigh as much as a semi. This characteristic seems to be present in all of the MB cars I've driven: '86 560SL(what a classic! My neighbor bought it brand new for his wife's birthday way back.), '98 C230(or is it 220?), and '97 S420. MB's are probably the best looking cars on the road; the current Sclass(the worst looking ones to me are the G's and new E's.) looks just amazing even at the end of it's generation run. My favorite MB is the '97-'99 E420/30(I hate the factroy body kit on the '00+). The big, goofy headlights and simple body shape are very beautiful. The heavy ride and great looks is where the good ends with MB. The C220 was most unimpressive other than it's looks and ride. The tranny was weird and the 4cyl was terribly unrefined. All three that I mentioned have constant problems. :(

[SRK]

I have owned older classic Mercedes. Great cars for sure, but scary parts prices even then.

The same guy who wanted me to drive the E320 steered me away from the late 80's 420SEL which I thought looked like a real man's car. Love the styling. Big cars for big guys. He told me that the front sway bars, being tubular, rust out. They are attached to the firewall, above the suspension. It's a nine hour job to replace the bar, and the part is expensive. He has another customer saving up to do an evaporator core in a 94 S400. The part is $400.00 and the labour to install it is a staggering 25 hours! So around $3000.00 total. He told me to do a Google search on how good the E320 is, and I did. Read about some poor *BLEEP* who has spent $6000.00 US to get the AC working. I know that Lexus aren't cheap, but they don't break as frequently, and that's worth a lot.

Thanks for all the input folks.

SRK

[SW03ES]

IMO, nothing rides and looks like a Mercedes. They all feel like they weigh as much as a semi. This characteristic seems to be present in all of the MB cars I've driven: '86 560SL(what a classic! My neighbor bought it brand new for his wife's birthday way back.), '98 C230(or is it 220?), and '97 S420. MB's are probably the best looking cars on the road; the current Sclass(the worst looking ones to me are the G's and new E's.) looks just amazing even at the end of it's generation run. My favorite MB is the '97-'99 E420/30(I hate the factroy body kit on the '00+). The big, goofy headlights and simple body shape are very beautiful. The heavy ride and great looks is where the good ends with MB. The C220 was most unimpressive other than it's looks and ride. The tranny was weird and the 4cyl was terribly unrefined. All three that I mentioned have constant problems.  :(

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The newer cars don't feel nearly as heavy as the older ones. The ride is totally different.

[TallTimber]

My last three Cars before I Retired were a 1980 450 SEL, an '84 500 SEL, and an '86 560 SEL, all purchased New.

I liked all Three of them a LOT. I did have some Electrical Problems with the '84 and that's why I didn't keep it as Long as the other Two. I drove it to Florida in Early January (getting dark early) and the Dash Lights weren't working. I used a Small Flashlight to Set the Cruise Control and to check the Fuel Gauge. Doesn't EVERYONE do that with an almost-new Mercedes?

I'll make a Comment about the Hard Seats. Yes, they FEEL Hard. However, I drove that '86 560 (with my wife) from Bowling Green, KY to Mount Rushmore in South Dakota. From there to Yellowstone Park in Wyoming. To Salt Lake City. To Denver. And finally to Colorado Springs for a Trade Association Meeting. From there, we came straight home through Nebraska. We were PRAISING those FIRM Seats. It's the same Principle as sleeping on a Firm Mattress instead of a Soft One. You get up feeling Good instead of with a Backache, etc.

We figured we felt better after a 500 Mile Drive than we would have after 350 Miles in a Cadillac or Lincoln.

[chmxxx]

I agree with SK- the early E320s are not the best cars that Mercedes makes.    Compare the smoothness to a 97+ S500.  Yes, they are a much more expensive car, but they are much smoother, but maybe more smooth enough for the extreme cost of this automobile.  About the ride- the 91 and older S-Class sedans have a much softer, supple suspension. 

My 90 LS, even with 234K is smooth (engine and transmission) and I have only ridden in one other LS400- my aunts 90 LS400- now with about 180K and it is super smooth.  I remember riding in my aunts 90 LS400 when it had about 80K and it was absolutely like a brand new car.  I am sure that a typical 95+ LS400 would be even smoother.  I will probably never know that, because with the annoyances I have recently had, I have really become disgusted with the Lexus name in general, even thought I know this is a old, wearing car.  I guess what I am the most annoyed with is that the instrument panel padding has hardened so bad (if the interior temperature is less than 80 degrees) and with the firm front suspension, that the car has now has dash "pops" on sharp bumps.  It has always been a southern car, but the leather interior is still in great shape, so I was assuming the padded panels would be as well.  This can happen to any car though I suppose. 

Even my 200K mile 1991 Honda Accord I had a couple of years ago had a tighter interior than this car (less rattles - virtually NONE).  The padding seemed like it was higher quality.  My 93 Camry was also a super car- 215K and NO rattles/pops and NONE of the problems I currently have with my 90 LS400.  It was garaged since new however.

Perhaps its time I get a lower mile 95+ LS?  :) - or maybe even another Accord or Camry?  ;)

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If your only complaints in a car with 234k are a hard dash and some rattles.......I say you have extremely high expectations. I hope my Lexus makes it to 234k......with or without some squeaks and a hard dash.

[90LS400Lexus]

I have test driven several early-mid 80s Mercedes and this was a common problem on some of these cars. It is the "reostat?" (switch that brightens/dims the instrument lights) that goes bad. I agree with you- it should not go bad on a new $50,000 car. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think a new 500SEL in 1984 sold for about $50,000-$60,000. Did yours have the airbag option? 84' was the first year for that option on all Mercedes except for the 300D, 300CD, 300TD and the 380SL. The 84-85 500SEL (like the one you bought in 84') is one of my most favorite Mercedes. I also like the 81-85 300SD (diesel), which is the similar body style, on a shorter wheelbase. Electrical systems were about the only problems these cars had. Cruise controls were also troublesome. Styling on these cars were WAY ahead of their time. Beautiful cars, as are the 96-91 S-Class sedans. Too bad parts are so expensive.

I liked all Three of them a LOT. I did have some Electrical Problems with the '84 and that's why I didn't keep it as Long as the other Two. I drove it to Florida in Early January (getting dark early) and the Dash Lights weren't working. I used a Small Flashlight to Set the Cruise Control and to check the Fuel Gauge. Doesn't EVERYONE do that with an almost-new Mercedes?

[TallTimber]

To be completely Honest, I've forgotten what the Electrical Problem turned out to be. It was still under Warranty. Actually, it happened again and had to be fixed again. It might have been the rheostat, but I thought it was something a bit more complicated.

I put a lot more miles on the other two and had an Identical eventual problem with each. The Water Pump. It gives no warning and doesn't start with a slight leak. Just all of a sudden, it shoots a Stream of Coolant about the size of a Pencil. Turning the engine off doesn't stop it. Pump Replacement is the ONLY solution.

I agree with your comments on the "Looks" of the '84, to some Extent. I think the Refinements on the '86 made it Better Looking, though it was Subtle. The Trim along the Bottom of the Doors looked "Nicer". The Headlights on the US Version were better looking. The Retractable Bumpers were better Integrated. The Alloy Whelels were Much Better Looking. The Interior was MUCH Nicer. The Seat Upholstery was Redesigned. The Steering Wheel looked Nicer. I'm pretty sure I had an Airbag on the '86. Can't remember about the '84.

They weren't quite as Expensive as you said. I believe I'm remembering Correctly that the '80 was about $35,000, the '84 about $45,000, and the '86 about $55,000.

I haven't looked closely at the Rear Window of a New Mercedes. Back then, they had the Best Looking (in my opinion) Rear Window Defoggers I've ever seen. They are almost Invisible and you have to look at just the proper angle or you can't see them at all. They appeared to be "printed" on the Inner Layer instead of the Black Wires imbedded in the Glass. They worked just as efficiently.

[90LS400Lexus]

That sounds about right on the pricing. I agree- some of the styling features on the 86' I also like better. Your 86 had the airbag, because that was the first year it was standard on ALL Mercedes cars. You said you had an 80'. I like those as well. There is actually a 1979 450SEL for sale locally in EXCELLENT condition, in perfect working order for $2600 I was considering, but I am not sure about the reliability on the older V8 gasoline Mercedes, so I have tried to forget about that one for now. <_<

You are right about the rear window defrosters. The elements are virtually invisible. What even more interesting, unlike most other cars, the rear windows on the Mercedes (at least through the 1980s) are laminated- meaning they crack like the front windshields, rather than shattering like the rear/side windows on other cars.

[TallTimber]

It's difficult for me to make Comparisons between My '04 LS430 and My Last Mercedes. In all Fairness, we're talking about an '04 and an '86.

I haven't driven or even ridden in a newer Model M-B. I just felt that was an Extravagence I should give up. I drove Lincolns and Cadillacs, but I couldn't shake the feeling I was "Punishing" myself. Even at my Age (72), I appreciate Acceleration and "Handling" as well as anyone. It's probably a "Residue" from my Hot-Rodding Days and Three Years of driving in Dirt-Track Stock-Car Races in the Early 1950s. Those Cad V-8s had plenty of power, but I just dont care much for Front-Wheel Drive.

Our Grandchildren have kept us tied down, to some extent, since I got the Lexus. The farthest I've driven is to Louisville and Back a few Times. 110 Miles each Way. The boys are out of School next week, and we're going down to the Smoky Mountains for 5 Days. 250 Miles. We had planned to take the boys to Pensacola Beach, FL like we did last October, but we changed our minds. Guess Why.

So far, I'm very favorably impressed with the Lexus. With the Engine's High Torque and the Six-Speed Transmission, it's "ready" anytime I am. And it does it SO smoothly and quietly. It's also got the best Front-Seat Headroom and Legroom of any Car I've driven, for quite a few Years. It's also got a Larger Trunk than Most.

Believe me when I say that even BIG Cars don't have as much Room as the Smaller Cars had 40 and 50 Years ago.

[SW03ES]

They weren't quite as Expensive as you said. I believe I'm remembering Correctly that the '80 was about $35,000, the '84 about $45,000, and the '86 about $55,000.

Thats pretty expensive when you figure in the value of the dollar back then. What cost $55,000 then would cost $89,675.20 now. That was a $90,000 car just like the S class is now. Now if you figure in what a 2004 LS430, even a UL would have comparitavely cost in 1986 you'd be looking at $42,932.72. The S class was always a very, very expensive car.

[90LS400Lexus]

Talltimber- it sounds like you have always kept nice upper crust cars- at least beginning in 1980, with the S-Class. If you do not mind me asking- what make of car did you drive in the 1970s- before the Mercedes S-Class sedans- or did you have Mercedes then as well? Back then- there were no Lexus cars and the most luxurious Toyota was the Crown, then the Cressida. Mercedes was there, but it seems like the most popular were the Cadillac, Lincoln and Imperial (Chrysler). I had a 1972 Cadillac Sedan DeVille (now considered a classic) back in the very early 1990s. For some reason, I have always liked the huge American cars of the 60s and 70s- I think it is the classic style- but I have also liked about any other car out there (except for small econo boxes). About three years ago, I bought a local 1972 Buick Electra 225 Custom 4dr hardtop (pillarless - no "B" pillar) sedan. The original owner was a doctor, that paid $5900 for it in August of 1972. It stickered for $6799- which is about $30000 by todays standards- which is pretty good, considering that the luxury Buick now- (Park Avenue) sells for over $40,000. He got it for $5900, because it was late in the 72 model year and the 73s were arriving. There were also luxury models from Chevrolet (Caprice) Pontiac (Grand Ville) Oldsmobile (Ninety-Eight) and Ford/Mercury (LTD Brougham/Marquis Brougham) and Chrysler Corporation (Plymouth Gran Fury / Dodge Monaco / Chrysler New Yorker), so I think it would be interesting to see what some of the current Lexus owners drove back in the 70s- or even the 1960s (IF they were driving then). Cadillac in the 50s thru the 80s always were bigger sellers than the Lincoln and Imperial. May be suprised- some may have had a VW Bettle with flowers and peace signs- or maybe even a Ford Pinto wagon or Chevrolet Vega wagon with woodgrain? :P wow- the "groovy" 60s and 70s. :) I was very young in the 70s (born in 76') so I do not remember a lot about it. I agree with you on "roomy" cars- the mid-size cars of the 60s and 70s were roomier than todays large cars. I now have a 69' Chevrolet Caprice, that is an extremely roomy car- I call it a tank- fits the name good, because it is huge and its green!

TallTimber- enjoy your trip to the Smoky Mountains. We are going there on Sunday. I only live about 100 miles away from there. I hope there are more fall colors there than they are here in the lower elevations of northeast Tennessee, because we have very little change here- our trees are still 95% green. I would guess there are more color there, in the mountains. Are you also going to be going to Gatlinburg/Pigeon Forge? We are going to Gatlinburg. Crowded, but a neat little vacation spot. Have a nice, safe trip!

Sorry - I often "stray" away from the original topic. :D

It's difficult for me to make Comparisons between My '04 LS430 and My Last Mercedes.  In all Fairness, we're talking about an '04 and an '86.

I haven't driven or even ridden in a newer Model M-B.  I just felt that was an Extravagence I should give up.  I drove Lincolns and Cadillacs, but I couldn't shake the feeling I was "Punishing" myself.  Even at my Age (72), I appreciate Acceleration and "Handling" as well as anyone.  It's probably a "Residue" from my Hot-Rodding Days and Three Years of driving in Dirt-Track Stock-Car Races in the Early 1950s.  Those Cad V-8s had plenty of power, but I just dont care much for Front-Wheel Drive. 

Our Grandchildren have kept us tied down, to some extent, since I got the Lexus.  The farthest I've driven is to Louisville and Back a few Times.  110 Miles each Way.  The boys are out of School next week, and we're going down to the Smoky Mountains for 5 Days.  250 Miles.  We had planned to take the boys to Pensacola Beach, FL like we did last October, but we changed our minds.  Guess Why.

So far, I'm very favorably impressed with the Lexus.  With the Engine's High Torque and the Six-Speed Transmission, it's "ready" anytime I am.  And it does it SO smoothly and quietly.  It's also got the best Front-Seat Headroom and Legroom of any Car I've driven, for quite a few Years.  It's also got a Larger Trunk than Most.

Believe me when I say that even BIG Cars don't have as much Room as the Smaller Cars had 40 and 50 Years ago.

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[Losiho]

My family have owned 4 Mercs over the last 20 years. All I can say is familiarity breeds contempt.

The only area where I can say the Merc is superior is the ride/handling compromise. My 95 LS400 is just a little too soft for me. But every Merc, even the V8s, are a dog to drive in city traffic. The infuriating policy of programming the transmission to start in 2nd gear makes them so slow off the line.

One of the Mercs we owned was a 1988 300E. A friend has a 1997 E320 - the drive is absolutely identical. Even though the E320 is a V6, the engine sounds almost the same as well

[90LS400Lexus]

I wish I could say that about my 90 LS400. Front struts seem like "metal to metal"- hardly any spring travel at all. The rears are OEM Toyota struts- offer a "floaty" ride at highway speeds- but too firm in town on sharp bumps. Not the ride I expected for a LS400. My 91 Accord and 93 Camry had a better ride than this LS. <_<

My 95 LS400 is just a little too soft for me.

[SW03ES]

Again though, its also 15 years old with 250,000 miles.

[90LS400Lexus]

Yes, but typically, when struts get "worn out" they allow the car to have overly soft suspension- making a "floaty" ride. Not so with this car though.

As far as the rear struts go- they are less than a year old and OEM Toyota- so I am assuming it is the ride the car had new- as far as the rears go- not as "soft" as I expected.

In addition my old 91 Accord was only one year newer and about the same mileage.

Again though, its also 15 years old with 250,000 miles.

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