Had To Tap Starter While Turning Key To Get It To Start

[prix]

Hi All --

I left the car outside for a couple of days...didn't drive it anywhere...the weather got down to mid-40s at night. When I went to start it this morning, I heard the rrow rrow rrow sound of the car trying to start for about two seconds, then I heard a click. That was it. The car would not start. I turned the key in the ignition again, and may have heard another rrow once, for about a second, then a click. On the third try (and all other tries) there was no 'rrow' sound at all, just a single click each time I turned the key.

AAA checked the battery and said it was fine. He cleaned corrosion off the battery terminals (there was some buildup), but said the problem was probably the starter. He brought out another battery to give the existing battery more power (not that it needed it) and had me turn the ignition. It made a single click noise. That was it. Then he had me turn the key in the ignition while he tapped lightly on the starter (he used a long metal pipe of some kind) and the car started right up (on first try). He said he had had the same problem once, where he had to tap the starter to get his car going, and that everything was fine for about a month. Then it reached a stage where he had to tap the starter every time to get it to start. Then it reached a stage where it would not start at all, tapping or no tapping (and he had to replace the starter).

After he left, I ran the car for a bit, then turned it off for a few minutes, then tried it again, and it started. I tried that a few more times and each time it started right up. So who knows what will happen tomorrow or next week, but for the moment, it starts. I'm hoping I have a little more time (like he did) during which the car still starts.

Question: Given what I have described, does this mean (conclusively) that the starter is the problem (or some part of the starter, like the solenoid)? Or could it be another issue. Btw, I did read some other threads about problems with starters here and most said lots of labor is involved. That's not good news at all. And I am not a DIY. Does anyone know how much labor?

What if they only need to clean the solenoid? Is that still labor intensive?

Does anyone know what kind of cost we are talking about to fix this?

What is reasonable for parts and labor? The more knowledge I have going in (for any repairs) the better.

Thanks all for any suggestions.

[SRK]

Tapping the solenoid, and having it start, was a co-incidence - assuming he was even able to reach it with the manifold installed.

The problem is the solenoid copper contacts - $30.00 at the dealer when I did mine. You can check the brushes and the bushings, but the starters are an excellent part except for those contacts. It's not a remote solenoid like an old Ford. It's on the starter, like a GM.

Gaskets will cost as much as the contacts. The real cost is in labour to get to the starter. And it needs to be done. Your symptoms are just like the ones I got from my starter, and from lots of other people on the board here. Fix it.

[prix]

Ok, thanks. How many hours (labor) needed to do this? Ballpark? [Please disregard...this was answered below.]

Tapping the solenoid, and having it start, was a co-incidence - assuming he was even able to reach it with the manifold installed.

The problem is the solenoid copper contacts - $30.00 at the dealer when I did mine. You can check the brushes and the bushings, but the starters are an excellent part except for those contacts. It's not a remote solenoid like an old Ford. It's on the starter, like a GM.

Gaskets will cost as much as the contacts. The real cost is in labour to get to the starter. And it needs to be done. Your symptoms are just like the ones I got from my starter, and from lots of other people on the board here. Fix it.

[landar]

I had never heard of tapping on a starter in the LS because it is buried under the intake manifold and basically inaccessible from the outside. But I suppose you could set up vibrations by tapping at the rear of the engine that might cause the solenoid to make contact. That is what I believe he did.

So, on to your questions. Does this mean conclusively that the starter is the problem? No, not 100%, just 99%. We do not know how many miles are on this starter. But it is a really, really good probability that your problem is the starter solenoid... in which case, the starter will need to be accessed. Even If you only need to "clean" the solenoid contacts(it needs replacing...the copper is gone), it still requires accessing the starter which is THE issue. Labor. Good mechanics "ain't" cheap, as you probably know. As a ballpark guess, a good mechanic could replace the starter in about 5-6 hrs. At $80/hr, you are still looking at $400-500 just for labor. Then there is the matter of the starter. While you have access to the starter, you might as well get the original rebuilt or buy a good quality replacement. Another $200-$300. So, be prepared for somewhere in the $600-$800 (or more) range depending upon who you can get to do the work. A good independent mechanic is your best bet.

[prix]

Ok, got it. That's a lot of labor. Though it's great to be able to come to this forum and get good advice. I will deal with it.

I had never heard of tapping on a starter in the LS because it is buried under the intake manifold and basically inaccessible from the outside. But I suppose you could set up vibrations by tapping at the rear of the engine that might cause the solenoid to make contact. That is what I believe he did.

So, on to your questions. Does this mean conclusively that the starter is the problem? No, not 100%, just 99%. We do not know how many miles are on this starter. But it is a really, really good probability that your problem is the starter solenoid... in which case, the starter will need to be accessed. Even If you only need to clean the solenoid, it still requires accessing the starter which is THE issue. Labor. Good mechanics "ain't" cheap. As a ballpark guess, a good mechanic could replace the starter in about 5-6 hrs. At $80/hr, you are still looking at $400-500 just for labor. Then there is the matter of the starter. While you have access to the starter, you might as well get the original rebuild or buy a good quality replacement. Another $200-$300. So, be prepared for somewhere in the $600-$800 (or more) range depending upon who you can get to do the work. A good independent mechanic is your best bet.

[prix]

One more question. With a 1% chance this problem could be caused by something else...what do you think about trying this? Other than a faulty starter relay and a bad starter or solenoid, I think I can exclude most other causes on this list.

http://www.lextreme.com/dx-starter.html

He suggests bypassing the starter circuit:

"There are many reasons why the engine won't turn. It is possible the circuitry might be faulty. However, you can test your starter without taking it out. You can bypass the circuitry and use a positive (+) into the fuse box. Here are the procedures:

1. Open up the fuse box with a flat screwdriver. The fuse box is located near the battery.

2. Use a 10 mm socket and loose the fuse/relay module.

3. From there you need to use the same 10 mm socket and loose the plug.

3. Once the plug is out, look for a large black wire right under the Green Relay (Starter Relay) See starter diagram below.

4. Supply the black wire with a power source. Please be careful do not touch this hot wire to anywhere else..."

[Full instructions are at the link above)...]

Would this also tell me whether the solenoid is 'bad'? Thanks in advance for any follow-up.

I had never heard of tapping on a starter in the LS because it is buried under the intake manifold and basically inaccessible from the outside. But I suppose you could set up vibrations by tapping at the rear of the engine that might cause the solenoid to make contact. That is what I believe he did.

So, on to your questions. Does this mean conclusively that the starter is the problem? No, not 100%, just 99%. We do not know how many miles are on this starter. But it is a really, really good probability that your problem is the starter solenoid... in which case, the starter will need to be accessed. Even If you only need to "clean" the solenoid contacts(it needs replacing...the copper is gone), it still requires accessing the starter which is THE issue. Labor. Good mechanics "ain't" cheap, as you probably know. As a ballpark guess, a good mechanic could replace the starter in about 5-6 hrs. At $80/hr, you are still looking at $400-500 just for labor. Then there is the matter of the starter. While you have access to the starter, you might as well get the original rebuilt or buy a good quality replacement. Another $200-$300. So, be prepared for somewhere in the $600-$800 (or more) range depending upon who you can get to do the work. A good independent mechanic is your best bet.

[prix]

Does anyone know if it would help keep the starter/solenoid contacts 'working' if I start the car a few times each day (until I can get in to see the mechanic)? It might take a couple of days to get the car in. I can always call AAA again if I have to, but I was just wondering if there would be any point to doing this. Thanks.

[SRK]

There is nothing else to do - fix the solenoid. You'll just frustrate yourself messing about with other "ideas".

The flat rate on the 98 VVti engine is four hours labour. That's what the dealer can charge. A bit more for the repair of the starter- 20 minutes. Dealers do not charge the time it takes a novice to do the job. They get a flat rate for the work. You could have them change the coolant, and check the air filter. Not much else has to been done during this repair.

The contacts have failed from use. Using them more won't help! Eventually it won't start at all.

[prix]

Ah, OK, guess I won't be doing that! Fortunately, I still have several service calls left on my AAA plan if I need them. I will see if I can get someone lined up tomorrow for the fix. Thanks for the follow-up!!

*****

There is nothing else to do - fix the solenoid. You'll just frustrate yourself messing about with other "ideas".

The flat rate on the 98 VVti engine is four hours labour. That's what the dealer can charge. A bit more for the repair of the starter- 20 minutes. Dealers do not charge the time it takes a novice to do the job. They get a flat rate for the work. You could have them change the coolant, and check the air filter. Not much else has to been done during this repair.

The contacts have failed from use. Using them more won't help! Eventually it won't start at all.

[billydpowell]

SRK is correct "There is nothing else to do - fix the solenoid."

I have had to do it on 2 of mine.

[jaswood]

There remains a remote chance, very remote, that you have an electrical problem. Battery negative/ground connection to the engine block, positive connection to/at the starter solenoid or from the solenoid to the starter itself. The starter solenoid, mounted on the starter itself, has 2 tasks, 1, to kick the drive gear into engagement with the engine flywheel gear teeth, and 2, to close a set of contacts(***) that then bypasses the solenoid coil itself in favor of FULL battery power to the starter motor.

The most common problem is those contacts(***) wear away with useage disabling the starter function.

I didn't know you could "tap" the starter/solenoid this way but I'm not surprised that the AAA person would know.

[prix]

OK, thanks. A few questions...

Since the starter only fired up when he tapped on it (while I turned the key in the ignition), doesn't it make sense that the problem is with sticky solenoid contacts? In other words, those contacts weren't closing, so the starter wasn't getting the full battery power. When he tapped it, it reset, and the car started.

I would certainly like to have the electrical connections you mentioned tested (I'm assuming that that is possible) before replacing anything. But it's not clear why, if there were an electrical problem in one of the connections, the car started up at all (based on what we tried). We weren't fiddling with any wires or cables that I know of. He did not even remove the battery terminals. He sprayed them with something then wiped them down.

As I said, before he tried tapping, he cleaned the battery terminals and boosted the power of the existing battery and then had me try to start it. I still got that single click noise. The only thing that worked was tapping hte starter (or in that vicinity) while I turned the key.

I have had a dash panel light flickering problem...though the lights do eventually come on after the car warms up. Seems unrelated to this issue. Or is it?

There remains a remote chance, very remote, that you have an electrical problem. Battery negative/ground connection to the engine block, positive connection to/at the starter solenoid or from the solenoid to the starter itself. The starter solenoid, mounted on the starter itself, has 2 tasks, 1, to kick the drive gear into engagement with the engine flywheel gear teeth, and 2, to close a set of contacts(***) that then bypasses the solenoid coil itself in favor of FULL battery power to the starter motor.

The most common problem is those contacts(***) wear away with useage disabling the starter function.

I didn't know you could "tap" the starter/solenoid this way but I'm not surprised that the AAA person would know.

[prix]

I have an independent mechanic lined up to do the work at a good rate (he's seemed really knowledgeable ... everything that he said was in sync with what I have read in these forums about starter repair on an LS400). I'm supplying the parts; he's doing the labor. So my next step is to cost out rebuilt starters. I'm assuming OEM new would be cost prohibitive. Can you recommend a good rebuilt brand, or two? Or where would I go to get my starter rebuilt? I think I will probably replace the whole starter rather than have him do just the solenoid contacts. That's how I am leaning at the moment. I read on some thread that Carson Toyota uses rebuilts by Denso (there was another part to the name but I forget what it was...something like AFIAK?). Not sure if that is even true (that they use that brand). I can look around some more in forums to find what others are using, but thought I would check here too. If this is the original starter, it's lasted almost 100K miles with no problems until now. I doubt any replacement will last as long. Also, what other parts should I buy? I read I would need an intake gasket. Is there anything else? Thanks.

I had never heard of tapping on a starter in the LS because it is buried under the intake manifold and basically inaccessible from the outside. But I suppose you could set up vibrations by tapping at the rear of the engine that might cause the solenoid to make contact. That is what I believe he did.

So, on to your questions. Does this mean conclusively that the starter is the problem? No, not 100%, just 99%. We do not know how many miles are on this starter. But it is a really, really good probability that your problem is the starter solenoid... in which case, the starter will need to be accessed. Even If you only need to "clean" the solenoid contacts(it needs replacing...the copper is gone), it still requires accessing the starter which is THE issue. Labor. Good mechanics "ain't" cheap, as you probably know. As a ballpark guess, a good mechanic could replace the starter in about 5-6 hrs. At $80/hr, you are still looking at $400-500 just for labor. Then there is the matter of the starter. While you have access to the starter, you might as well get the original rebuilt or buy a good quality replacement. Another $200-$300. So, be prepared for somewhere in the $600-$800 (or more) range depending upon who you can get to do the work. A good independent mechanic is your best bet.

[jaswood]

I have an independent mechanic lined up to do the work at a good rate (he's seemed really knowledgeable ... everything that he said was in sync with what I have read in these forums about starter repair on an LS400). I'm supplying the parts; he's doing the labor. So my next step is to cost out rebuilt starters. I'm assuming OEM new would be cost prohibitive. Can you recommend a good rebuilt brand, or two? Or where would I go to get my starter rebuilt? I think I will probably replace the whole starter rather than have him do just the solenoid contacts. That's how I am leaning at the moment. I read on some thread that Carson Toyota uses rebuilts by Denso (there was another part to the name but I forget what it was...something like AFIAK?). Not sure if that is even true (that they use that brand). I can look around some more in forums to find what others are using, but thought I would check here too. If this is the original starter, it's lasted almost 100K miles with no problems until now. I doubt any replacement will last as long. Also, what other parts should I buy? I read I would need an intake gasket. Is there anything else? Thanks.

I had never heard of tapping on a starter in the LS because it is buried under the intake manifold and basically inaccessible from the outside. But I suppose you could set up vibrations by tapping at the rear of the engine that might cause the solenoid to make contact. That is what I believe he did.

So, on to your questions. Does this mean conclusively that the starter is the problem? No, not 100%, just 99%. We do not know how many miles are on this starter. But it is a really, really good probability that your problem is the starter solenoid... in which case, the starter will need to be accessed. Even If you only need to "clean" the solenoid contacts(it needs replacing...the copper is gone), it still requires accessing the starter which is THE issue. Labor. Good mechanics "ain't" cheap, as you probably know. As a ballpark guess, a good mechanic could replace the starter in about 5-6 hrs. At $80/hr, you are still looking at $400-500 just for labor. Then there is the matter of the starter. While you have access to the starter, you might as well get the original rebuilt or buy a good quality replacement. Another $200-$300. So, be prepared for somewhere in the $600-$800 (or more) range depending upon who you can get to do the work. A good independent mechanic is your best bet.

Given a look at the starter components once I had it apart the minimum I would do is:

Clean and lub the solenoid mechanicals.

Clean, fine sandpaper, the commutator.

Replace the brushes.

Replace the solenoid "bypass" contacts.

Cleaning/burnishing the battery posts/connections might have fixed the flinkering light problem.

I have personally seen battery connections so corroded that a light level of current would flow but current at the starter requirement level would result in smoke rising from the battery terminal(s). I suspect almost any marginal elctrical connection could act the same.

[prix]

Thanks. His quote was for installing a new (rebuilt) starter that I provide. Are you saying I could have him do these things to my existing starter and I would be good to go? What you describe really doesn't sound all that complicated.

The dash panel lights are the same, still flickering or going dark for a time until the car warms up. It's taking longer and longer for them to come on. The battery terminals were just cleaned on Sunday (by AAA). The battery is only one year old, and it had only 'light' corrosion build-up. I don't think there's any connection between the flicker of the dash panel and the battery (in this instance). I found (and promptly lost) another (rather extensive) thread about what others did to fix flickering dash panel lights. I need to get this problem solved too (kind of important to know fuel level!), but my main concern now is getting the starter fixed.

My car started up fine (twice so far) today. Whew.

I have an independent mechanic lined up to do the work at a good rate (he's seemed really knowledgeable ... everything that he said was in sync with what I have read in these forums about starter repair on an LS400). I'm supplying the parts; he's doing the labor. So my next step is to cost out rebuilt starters. I'm assuming OEM new would be cost prohibitive. Can you recommend a good rebuilt brand, or two? Or where would I go to get my starter rebuilt? I think I will probably replace the whole starter rather than have him do just the solenoid contacts. That's how I am leaning at the moment. I read on some thread that Carson Toyota uses rebuilts by Denso (there was another part to the name but I forget what it was...something like AFIAK?). Not sure if that is even true (that they use that brand). I can look around some more in forums to find what others are using, but thought I would check here too. If this is the original starter, it's lasted almost 100K miles with no problems until now. I doubt any replacement will last as long. Also, what other parts should I buy? I read I would need an intake gasket. Is there anything else? Thanks.

I had never heard of tapping on a starter in the LS because it is buried under the intake manifold and basically inaccessible from the outside. But I suppose you could set up vibrations by tapping at the rear of the engine that might cause the solenoid to make contact. That is what I believe he did.

So, on to your questions. Does this mean conclusively that the starter is the problem? No, not 100%, just 99%. We do not know how many miles are on this starter. But it is a really, really good probability that your problem is the starter solenoid... in which case, the starter will need to be accessed. Even If you only need to "clean" the solenoid contacts(it needs replacing...the copper is gone), it still requires accessing the starter which is THE issue. Labor. Good mechanics "ain't" cheap, as you probably know. As a ballpark guess, a good mechanic could replace the starter in about 5-6 hrs. At $80/hr, you are still looking at $400-500 just for labor. Then there is the matter of the starter. While you have access to the starter, you might as well get the original rebuilt or buy a good quality replacement. Another $200-$300. So, be prepared for somewhere in the $600-$800 (or more) range depending upon who you can get to do the work. A good independent mechanic is your best bet.

Given a look at the starter components once I had it apart the minimum I would do is:

Clean and lub the solenoid mechanicals.

Clean, fine sandpaper, the commutator.

Replace the brushes.

Replace the solenoid "bypass" contacts.

Cleaning/burnishing the battery posts/connections might have fixed the flinkering light problem.

I have personally seen battery connections so corroded that a light level of current would flow but current at the starter requirement level would result in smoke rising from the battery terminal(s). I suspect almost any marginal elctrical connection could act the same.

[steve2006]

I did the job myself and replaced the contacts and plunger,this was around 2 years ago and I have had no problems since.

The kit was around $30.00 and takes around 30 minutes to fit,I tested mine on the car's battery before refitting.

[prix]

I think this is the way to go then. Thanks for posting the pics. By any chance, do you remember the brand of the kit?

I did the job myself and replaced the contacts and plunger,this was around 2 years ago and I have had no problems since.

The kit was around $30.00 and takes around 30 minutes to fit,I tested mine on the car's battery before refitting.

[billydpowell]

I fixed both of mine this way, got the kits at Sewell..... no more problems

[jaswood]

Just be sure to replace the commutator brushes also.

[prix]

Ok, got it. Will do. Appreciate the follow-up.

Just be sure to replace the commutator brushes also.

[prix]

I thought I had lucked out in getting the one AAA mechanic that knew to try this...it could so easily have gone the other way (meaning a tow, which would have been a big problem given that my mechanic's shop is closed on Sunday). Would have been a hassle, in other words. I wasn't happy with the news, but I was happy with the service! As he said, eventually the tapping won't work, so I have to fix it. There's no other solution.

"Then he had me turn the key in the ignition while he tapped lightly on the starter (he used a long metal pipe of some kind) and the car started right up (on first try)."

AAA tow truck drivers are an excellent source of information when it comes to auto repair! I would do what he says. Get a really long pipe and bang on your starter while you turn the key. If you get tired of running back and forth banging and cranking, drill a hole through your firewall for a straight shot to the starter!

[prix]

Car won't start. When I turned the key, I heard a faint rrrow sound, then the single click. I turned the key several more times, and each time just the click. If I leave the key turned to the right (and hold it with light pressure in the place the key would normally be in to fire up the engine) I get a rapid clicking tat-tat-tat sound. The tat-tat-tat sound was on the passenger side in the front -- seemed like it was coming from under the hood or the dash panel. In other words, the tat tat noise was nowhere near where the battery is. Ideas? I am going out again to see if the lights will come on with the key in the 'on' position.

[prix]

The headlights come on with the key in the ignition in the 'on' position. I cannot tell how bright they are, because it's sunny outside. Now, when I turn the key all the way to 'start' I get rapid tat tat tat tat sound. Every time. Whereas on Sunday, when this first happened, I heard the single click. When I first tried to start it today I heard it trying to turn over (faintly) then the single click. Then subsequent tries on the key gave me the rat tat tat tat sound. Now, no more single clicks, just rat tat tat every time.

[prix]

A little more info...on the third time out (thought I would check one more time), when the key hit the 'start' mode, I heard two faint clicks, then rat tat tat tat fast clicking. The other thing I noticed the dash panel lights dimmed when I turned on the headlights (manually). When I put the lights on 'auto' (they would go off because it's light outside) and the dash panel lights brightened. The headlight icon in the dash panel never did come on. The headlights would not go into 'bright' mode when I flicked the switch forward. The turn signals didn't work either. Or if they did, no icon came on in the dash panel to show me that the headlights were on or the turn signals were working. I am not sure how relevant this dash panel stuff is, since I have been having dash panel light flickering for months now. The dash panel lights usually come on and stay on after I have driven the car for 10 to fifteen mins or so. Thought I would mention this in case that helps to diagnose.

[curiousB]

click click click is a dead battery or bad/corroded connections. Dimming headlights suggest the same thing. I think I'd check battery voltage before ripping open manifold to swap the starter... Your symptoms seem to be moving around, or at least your observations of them are.