Help Needed With Front Brakes

[sainikai]

Guys,

Help needed with front brakes. Today I spent whole day trying to put new front rotors. The new rotors I put were by Brembo. First of all, those calliper bracket 17mm bolts were so stinking tight that I broke two sockets, isn't that frustrating :chairshot: ?

Anyway, after spending lot of time, I finally got them dismantle. Put new rotors. I used the same pads, because it still has lots of life left. I just replace them late last year. While compressing caliper piston, I open the bleeder valve so that old fluid doesn't go back to master cylinder. After, putting everything back, used help of my wife for bleeding brake fluid. She pumped the brakes until master cylinder was empty and pedal would not return, I put new brake fluid and again bleed little bit. I fill the master cylinder all the way to full.

I thought whatever I did was correct. But now, there is no pressure in the brake paddle, it goes all the way down. When, the car is running, the paddle even becomes worst, meaning it goes in very smothly. I know it is not normal. Okay, while pressing the paddle and releasing, it makes kind of whistling noise everytime I push the pedal.

I went for a testing drive and it is dangerous since the front brakes are not function (may be not functioning at all, I guessed so because after test drive, I touched the rotor and it was barely hot although rear rotors were sizlling hot).I dismantel the caliper again but could not find anything wrong. I bleed little bit again to see if it works. But no improvement.

I would greatly appreciate your help with this since I have whole day tomorrow to work on. :cries:

Any ideas, any suggestions, would be very helpful. Thanks a lot!!

-Kailash

[92Lex]

You let air into your lines...you'll have to bleed the brakes until you get everything out. Youre NOT supposed to let the brake resevoir get to dangerously low levels while bleeding the brakes.

Go to home depot and buy some clear plastic tubing (I believe 3/16" will work) you'll only need about 2 feet of that stuff, take the tubing and put one end over the bleeder nipple and the other into a jar with about an inch or so of clean brake fluid. p.s. if you tape a lug nut to the end of the tube that goes into the jar itll help keep the tube submersed in the clean fluid...that way you wont accidently let any air back in.

Procedure for bleeding the brakes would be to open the resevoir and fill it up to the max, have your wife pump the brakes 3 times and hold it down on the 3rd pump, then you open the bleeder nipple 1/4-1/2 turn for 1 sec then close it, make sure she keeps the brake pedal depressed to the floor until you close the nipple, once its closed have her pull the pedal back up and pump the brakes 3 more times, open the nipple again...repeat that until theres absolutely no more air bubbles coming out of the clear plastic tube. Hope this helps you.

[UCF3]

Also, start bleeding from the Pass/rear, drivers rear, pass/front, drivers front.

One more thing you should know, when you switch to brembo calipers you'll need brembo pads. They should be of the same composit or your rotors and your pads will warp quickly, even if you have cross-drilled or slotted.

[95LS400Bob]

The following works on some cars..some cars it doesn't. But I have found it a sure way to get air out of the system without pedal pumping. We use this method on drag cars.

Jack the vehicle up. Make sure the master cylinder is full. Then attach a hose to the brake bleeder fitting at the caliper. Put the other end of the hose in a catch container or some kind.

Simply open the bleeded valve quite a ways. It takes a few minutes but it should "gravity bleed". Keep your master cylinder topped up with fluid...watch the fluid coming out and when you think you got a good solid constant stream or you have bleed about as much as a full master cylinder would hold, then close the bleeder valve. Go on to the next wheel and repeat the process.

Tis said that you should start at the wheel farthest from the master cylinder but I have done it many ways. When you are done bleeding...then step ONE TIME on the brake pedal. Record that distance the pedal is from the floor (approximately). Now pump the pedal a few times and see if the pedal is the same distance after pumping. If it is..you got all the air out.

If the system won't seem to gravity bleed..then you have to do the pedal pump deal.

[sainikai]

Thanks 95LS400Bob!

Does it matter which side you bleed first, since I and my wife were the only people around? How do I simultaneously bleed both sides?

I tried that and I noticed on side (while my wife was pushing pedal), which I closed it first, no bubbles. But on other side (which the bolt was still open), it was bubbling. I guess, I have been good to keep one side air free. But, even it that was true, that side of wheel or rotor/pads should work...right? When I checked after test drive, none of the rotors were hot...I don't know, I WILL have to try what you suggested tomorrow...

I'll keep you posted...THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!!!!!

-Kailash

[sainikai]

UF3, Will it work this time (I have about 30% of Midas CIRAMIC pads left) if I don't use BREMBO pads?

Thanks for your info!!!

-Kailash

[sainikai]

Hey, Thanks guys ;) !

I'll try tomorrow (your suggestions/experience). I'll be sure to post whatever happens!!

Once again, THANKS for your feedback!!!!!!

P.S. I knew, I LIKED this forum VERY MUCH for OBVIOUS REASONS!!

[95LS400Bob]

Thanks 95LS400Bob!

Does it matter which side you bleed first, since I and my wife were the only people around? How do I simultaneously bleed both sides?

I tried that and I noticed on side (while my wife was pushing pedal), which I closed it first, no bubbles. But on other side (which the bolt was still open), it was bubbling. I guess, I have been good to keep one side air free. But, even it that was true, that side of wheel or rotor/pads should work...right? When I checked after test drive, none of the rotors were hot...I don't know, I WILL have to try what you suggested tomorrow...

I'll keep you posted...THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!!!!!

-Kailash

Try the gravity bleed first. One wheel at a time like I said earlier.

If that doesn't work..meaning it just wont flow fluid out and keep draining by gravity...THEN:

Close all bleeder fittings. Make sure the master cylinder is full. Go to the right rear wheel. Put the bleeder hose on the fitting and the other end in a bottle of brake fluid (clear container).

Don't open the bleeder fitting yet but have a wrench ready to loosen it.

Have your wife pump the brake pedal a couple times and hold the pedal down...even if the pedal goes to the floor. She holds that pedal down till you tell her otherwise.

Now loosen the bleeder fitting. Fluid/air will flow into the container. When it stops flowing then tighten the bleeder fitting.

Now tell your wife to release the brake pedal. Wait about 45 seconds for the system to stabilze.

Now have her pump the pedal a couple times...hold the pedal down and you loosen the fitting again. Do this till you see no air..just fluid going into the container.

Then do the left rear wheel.

Then the right front wheel.

Then the left front wheel.

One wheel at a time..very important.

Keep checking master cylinder and do not let it get low while bleeding. Otherwise you will pump air into the system.

That's the old fashion way but it works.

[SRK]

UF3, Will it work this time (I have about 30% of Midas CIRAMIC pads left) if I don't use BREMBO pads?

Thanks for your info!!!

-Kailash

Brake pads and rotors are not matched one to the other. Use your old pads if you like - they will bed into the new rotors in a couple of miles. However, if you were going to change them, now would be the time.

[sainikai]

Hello Guys,

I bleed two times starting from rear passanger, rear driver, front passanger, front driver. I spend the whole morning, but NO SUCCESS.

There is pressure when car is not ON. But as soon as I turn ON the car, the pedal pressure drops and it goes all the way in. Also, when I turned off the car, there is some air noise coming from near by air filter.

Any idea what is going on? Should I put my old rotors back? One of the old rotor is messed up since I used hammer to remove (it was stucked to the hub)

:cries:

-Kailash

[SRK]

So the reason the pedal is firmer with the engine off is the brake booster is not functioning. Start the engine and the booster makes the pedal mushier because you still have air in the system.

When bleeding be sure to have the person at the wheel end calling the shots. "Down" means the pedal is pushed down, and held, while the wheel person opens and then closes the bleeder. Then the wheel person calls "Release" and the person at the pedal releases the pedal fully. Wheel person calls "Down" and the pedal is depressed, the bleeder opened and closed, then "Release". You will have to do this about three times at each wheel.

The danger is that all this stroking of the master cylinder may wipe out its seals. At that point you will need to rebuild or replace the master, and begin bleeding all over again.

[sainikai]

I did the bleeding exactly as you said..Pump about 3 times and hold it depressed the third time...then open the bleeder bolt and close it while the brake pedal is still depressed....then release the pedal and repeat the process about 3~4 times on each wheel....

I did this for 3 times already......

As you mentioned about master cylinder may have wiped out its seals..I don't know but I'm just guessing...

Oh man, I hope I don't have to put new master...

Any other idea or suggestions...?

[ebridges]

Don't give up.

Kailash, you may very well need to "bleed" each wheel many more times than 3 or 4 to get out all air. i.e. right rear may have to do 10 or 15 times. Usually best indicator is change of color of fluid - old is darker. But if you let master cylinder reservoir get low, more air will enter the line and you must start all over again.

The front lines typically are shorter and therefore take fewer pump - open/close bleeder valve applications. But from my experience, it takes many more than 3 or 4 per wheel.

Three people would be ideal. One to keep the reservoir full at all times, one to "pump and hold" and you to open and close the bleed valve while watching the bubbles come out and the color of the fluid change to clear.

Good Luck!

EB

[sainikai]

I just gave up today after working for 2 days on putting new front rotors. As suggested by SRK, I might have messed up cylinder seal or something. I'm going to take to Midas tomorrow and see what they says

Thanks for your HELP guys!!

-Kailash

[95LS400Bob]

Hope I am not too late. I just realized something. I missed something you said in your first post:

"She pumped the brakes until master cylinder was empty and pedal would not return, I put new brake fluid and again bleed little bit. I fill the master cylinder all the way to full."

You ran the master cylinder dry. You have air in the master cylinder and the master cylinder must be bleed BEFORE you can get and other air out of the system.

I thought you had just opened the bleeder valves to let the pistons go back (which was wrong) and that got some air in the system.

Master cylinder bleed kits are inexpensive and sold at auto parts stores. When you replace a master cylinder with a new one...you must bleed the new amster cylinder or it will never get the air out.

I doubt you hurt anything...just air in the system. You had brakes when you started and just were replacing rotors. So doubtful something went bad in that meantime.

[TexasLexus94]

All the problems with bleeding the brake system can occur with all kinds of cars-My old Honda drove me nuts, too. So I said to hell with it, and decided to change the pads on the Lexus recently without bleeding the system. What I've noticed is that it's only a tiny 1/8 to 1/4" that I need to compress the caliper cylinders to allow the new pads to fit around the rotor. So I simply squeezed the cylinders open without any disconnections. And I saw that the level of brake fluid in the reservoir rose maybe 1/8". But the hoses didn't burst, and the brake pedal, after the replacement pads, was back to normal.

Call me nuts, but I did it with the Honda, too. Too late for the sain... guy. Hope all is well now.

[RCRFAN3]

I worked for midas for ten years, All you have do do is open a rear bleeder screw and push the pedal down to move the propornition valve to the front side of the brake cylinder. then bleed the brakes without letting the master going dry. Any problems after that give me a phone # and I'LL call ya and talk you through it.

[sainikai]

I would like to fix this problem by myself, but I guess its too late now. Due to working schedule and garage availability, I doubt I can do it during this week and cannot wait until next weeked to tackel this problem. I might as well go and do brake fluid flush at some workshop.

I TRUELY APPRECIATE YOUR FEEDBACK & SUGGESTIONS!! I should have been more careful while bleeding. Lesson Learned!!

-Kailash

[sainikai]

Just a quick update, I went to Midas for bleeding the brakes and did if for $20 and now functioning properly.

Thanks all for your respone!