Mike Floutier

Hi all, I have a 2002 LS430 which is just coming up to 300,000 miles. I had it converted to run on propane around 150,000 miles ago. I have been using an upper cylinder lubrication system but this was not working for around 30,000 miles, on and off. Recently I started getting a flashing Engine Light along with a P0301 code (mis-fire on cyl 1). This would happen ONLY when the engine was completely cold AND under load - eg. pulling uphill at low revs. Any combination of flat/downhill terrain AND/OR engine warmup and the "fault" would clear. As the weeks have gone on (I do around 1,000 miles per week) it has got worse; ie. "fault" is more easily precipitated and takes longer to clear AND can sometimes appear WITH a warm engine under load (only very occasionally). I monitor the fuel consumption quite carefully and I am not seeing any significant increase. The physical "mis-fire" sensation is only noticeable when stationary, in drive, at idle. To give an idea, on a scale of "1 > 10", if removing the coil lead for 1 cylinder was a "10", then this feeling is around "3 or 4". I should clarify that although the flashing engine light and P0301 codes are only occasional, the feeling of mis-firing is constant. There are no other codes. Around 50,000 miles ago I had a very strange problem with misfire codes on most of the cylinders in No. 1's bank. This would happen on gasoline BUT not on propane and completely cleared up following change of spark plugs and air filter and has been fine ever since. The present problem is the same whether running on gasoline or propane - each system has it's own dedicated injectors. So far I have swapped the cyl 1 ignition coil with it's neighbor to rule that out AND I have replaced the cyl 1 spark plug - no difference. I'm not sure what could be the problem OR what I can try next. Any ideas would be gratefully received. Kind regards, Mike

Ok, well there's only a finite amount of time one can allocate to agonizing over any given problem so I pulled the ABS fuse and, sure enough my Red Triangle, Check VSC and VSC off lights all disappeared, exactly what I wanted. On the downside however, they were replaced by: 1. The ABS warning light, 2. The red brake warning light. 3. The ABS not working - not surprisingly - which as you mentioned is somewhat undesirable, and finally, 4. The power steering starts to whine and isn't as effective as usual. So, the solution: 1. Replace ABS fuse - haha! 2. Put carefully shaped piece of black insulating tape over offending Red Triangle, and 3. Promote the "Red Triangle ping noise" to the exalted role of "seat belt warning sound". I just have to remember to delay puttting on my seat belt until it pings. And to think I've been cogitating over this for the last few months; I don't know!!

If you pulled the fuse AFTER the first resetting of the VSC light, maybe that is why you can no longer reset the warning light? IOW, if you put the fuse back in, perhaps you could now reset the light. Do you have the "VSC Off" button down by the shift lever? Also Mike, check out this thread -> http://www.clublexus.com/forums/ls430/329133-check-vsc-vsc-off.html Thanks for replying Landar, The fuse I removed was for the "air-sus" and this was about 30,000 miles before this current problem so not related. The problem, in any case, with replacing the air-sus fuse is that it would re-enable a faulty air-sus system which would jack up all 4 corners of the car to maximum height and set each of the absorbers dampers to maximum - believe you me having experienced that once I never want to do it again. I now adjust those settings manually using a motorcycle battery for the dampers and the relevant "short-block" for the ride height. With regard to the thread you quoted, this is slightly confusing as it shows 2 differing "shorting" methods of resetting the VSC light, saying that one is mistaken. The interesting thing is that both work but they use differing methodology. The diagnostic section of the manual covers this in detail in the VSC section. As I mentioned, I have been successful in resetting the VSC earlier in this problem (using the shorting method quoted in your link) but now, however hard I try, I get an immediate repeat. I really would like to disable the remaining systems that could be responsible for this warning. So if anyone kknows which fuses would do it I would be grateful. Regards, Mike

I just realised that I forgot to mention that I've already disabled some of the VSC system. I had a problem with the ride height and absorber damping which I also could not solve economically so I pulled the fuse on this. So I'm already without the automatic anti-roll/dive & submarine along with the manual ride height and variable absorber damping control. All I would lose now is the traction control and ABS which I'm happy to be without. ie. it would be just like and old fashioned car. So, back to my original question, could you help me by advising which fuse(s) I need to pull to disable the remainder of the VSC? Many thanks. Mike

Thanks Landar, will let you know how it goes.

Haha Steve, you found me out. I don't really know why I prefer you guys but I just do, having said that there are some great guys on the UK site. Both my kids have US spouses and live over there. In fact we just got back from visiting. My son is a Platoon Sergeant and Ranger with two tours in Iraq currently based at Ft Lewis. My daughter is just graduating from college and runs her own very successful business. Both have two lovely kids of their own. Sorry to go on but I'm a very proud dad and sad not to be able to hang out with them more. I guess all that's partly why I feel such an affiliation for you guys. Anyway.....

Hi Landar, As well as the red triangle I'm getting the "Check VSC" message and also the "VSC Off" sign. However the ABS still seems to work ok. I checked the codes and got 34, 36, 39 & 51 in varying quantities and combinations. My feeling is that it's unlikely that faults on seperate wheels could appear and disappear together. What appeared to happen is that the VSC warning was triggered as a result of the "mis-firing" that I was experiencing. I still suspect that this is true but am frustrated by my inability to reset the VSC warning having now fixed the mis-firing. I don't know what else to do so in the absence of any suggestions I'd really like to know how to disable the system. Having said that I am open to ideas. Regards, Mike

Concurrently with a mis-firing problem I had my VSC warning light come on (along with the regular very annoying beep every time I start). I was able to reset the warning once using the OBD-ll DLC jumping techniques in the manual but when the ignition problem returned (and was fixed) I was not able to reset the VSC again. I've given up trying to reset the VSC warning as the ignition problem recurrs occasionally anyway. My QUESTION is - "How do I disable the VSC system?" I assume it may be possible by pulling a fuse but I'm not sure which one. Kind regards, Mike

Ok, the story continues. I have continued driving with the petrol injector emulators swapped over. Finally the "mis-firing" fault re-appears. Slightly disappointingly the problem remains in Bank 1 - so I can rule out the Emulators. Another thing I noticed while test-driving this morning is that the "mis-firing" fault comes and goes "by itself"; it was merely a coincidence that it dis-appeared when I cleared the DTCs so I've lost interest in that angle too. One thing I did notice today, that I haven't heard before is a sound coming from the petrol tank. As well as a normal fuel pump sound (barely audible) I could clearly hear what I can only describe as a "sloshing" sound; and it's not always there. At first I thought it was the fuel slopping around (but it's not), then I thought it was the guy working on his house (but it's not). Any ideas? Anyway, I'm going to keep the scanner plugged in and as soon as I get the "mis-firing" again (never does it when I want it - lol!) I'll record a fuel trim data series along with a "normal" one for comparison. Are there any other Bank-specific sensors that could be involved. I'd love to clean the knock sensor's multi-plug but it looks so hard to get at. So far in the life of this car the only problems I have had have all been caused by electrical connections. Kind regards, Mike

Whilst browsing, I notice that there is a "fail-safe" operation of the type I mentioned detailed for your 2004 model Curious. It's detailed on page 05-28 of the manual. Unfortunately I can't see a similar mention in my 2002 manual so I'm still unclear.

I'm not sure if we're at cross-purposes here but there is feedback to the ECU regarding a successful spark or no. There are 4 leads to each igniter coil pack, the 9-14v live feed for the coil, the earth, the ECU igniter signal (that switches a transistor in the coil pack and like a relay turns on the power to the coil) and finally the feedback signal wire to the ECU that advises the ECU if the spark plug has successfully fired. It is the absence of this feedback signal that triggers the P1300..series DTC in my case although I notice that it's a P0351... series on your model which is later than mine (see page 05-152 of your workshop manual for full details) So it is possible for the ECU to shut down an individual injector, I'm just not sure if it does or not.

Hi Curious, Many thanks for helping me think this through, we will get there. 1. Regarding the knock sensor, it's located fairly centrally but slightly closer to 3 than 5 so the cylinders furthest away are in fact 1 & 7. Therefore I'd like to rule that out for the time being, especially as it is so hard to get at. 2. Today I started it up with 1 & 3 igniter coils disconnected - by the way I do this as it stops the engine light flashing (cat damage!!), I still get loads of white petrol-smelling smoke out the back once it's warmed up but no flashing engine light. A QUESTION here is; "does disconnecting the coil cause the ECU to turn off the relevant petrol injectors?" Anyway after it was warmed up it switched to propane, I pushed in the coil connectors and we're running normally on propane; no mis-firing. Now I stop the engine and clear the DTC codes - I do this because my plan is to swap over the Petrol Injector Emulators (one per bank)- the role of these btw is to 1. divert the petrol injector signal/current to the propane injectors (on switchover to propane), and 2. To let the petrol ECU know/think that the petrol injectors are still working normally - ie. to stop it throwing up injector codes because they "don't seem to be working" which of course they are not. Ok, so I clear the codes. I then start up again on petrol but this time it runs perfectly smoothly. I switch back and forward between petrol and propane but it still runs perfectly. I drive around for a while on petrol, re-scanning for codes as I go but no codes! 3. What I think this tells us is that the fault does not lie with the injectors themselves. Something may be causing them to misbehave but they themselves work fine; this must be true because they would not both fail at the same time and certainly not recover together. 4. So, what I have done is to swap the Injector Emulators - fortunately incredibly easy. I will keep driving and see what happens; naturally if the problem behaviour switches banks we'll have the culprit. 5. Finally the thing that is very interesting, and I think well worth further thought, is that the problem simply went away when I cleared the DTCs. Taken on it's own I would not be so keen to persue this BUT exactly the same thing happened when I was originally working on this problem with my propane installer a few weeks ago. ie. whatever we tried, nothing made any difference until the DTCs were cleared and then, as now, the problem just stopped immediately the codes were cleared. Will let you know how it goes but in the meantime if you have any thoughts I'd love to hear them. Kind regards, Mike

Thanks Curious, good point about moving the injectors, I guess maybe I hadn't thought of that for the reason you hinted at...I've not removed injectors before, they look well buried. Do you need any special tools or just patience and care? I'm very interested to understand the role and location of the knock sensor - as you can imagine I'm particularly interested in any component that affects more than one injector and is liable to intermittent failure - would you mind explaining your thoughts about the knock sensor. Thanks again. Mike

Hi, You may recall that I had a problem with mis-firing on 1 & 3 - where the "mis-firing" only occurred when running on petrol but not on propane. The problem was intermittent and appeared to have been solved by changing spark plugs, cleaning the Air-flow filter and adding a bottle of injector cleaner. However, after a few weeks (around 2,000 miles) both 1 & 3 started mis-firing again today (again only on petrol) - this is confirmed by pulling the coil leads on 1 & 3, performance on petrol & propane identical under these conditions. It has been suggested that the injectors need changing - my response to this is; "how can both 1 & 3 injectors start misbehaving (and stop misbehaving) at the same time?". However, I don't know where else to look - surely if it were a general problem (eg. Air-flow meter) it would affect other injectors as well. Does any one have any thoughts. Kind regards, Mike

Thanks Don, Firstly I'll show the full link as the one you referred to contained some ....., it was http://us.lexusownersclub.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=55589 Secondly, whilst waiting for the rain to stop I browsed the Workshop Manual and found on page DI-346 a procedure for Clearing VSC codes. It involved jumping Tc and CG on the DLC3. I found this slightly puzzling as your link said to jump Ts and CG (also, the Tc procedure involved pressing the brake pedal 8 times within 5 seconds. Anyway, just now the rain nearly stopped so I thought I'd try it all out. First I jumped Tc and GC and pressed 8 times... Sure enough the VSC codes disappeared. However, as soon as I got the car moving "ping", red triangle, VSC codes back, albiet only one code now instead of 3 or 4. Ok, I now followed your advice and jumped Ts and CG and simply switched the ignition on and off. This time I drove the car and NO problems at all. Thank you Don, I really appreciate your help with this! Kind regards, Mike

Thanks Don, will give it a try when it stops raining. Kind regards, Mike

Hi, I recently had a "mis-firing" problem that was caused by a corroded igniter coil connector which I have solved - ie. no "mis-firing" and code P1305 no longer being registered. When I started getting the P1305 code, this was immediately accompanied by the Red Warning Triangle, the Check VSC message and the VSC Off light. I heard that this was a normal response by the VSC system to unusual engine speed behaviour and expected the VSC warnings to disappear after I solved the coil problem. However the VSC warnings are still being shown in spite of me clearing the P1305 code. The VSC codes are 34, 36 and 39. Two of these relate to the left rear speed sensor and one to the left front. Obviously, the likelihood of all three codes just happening at exactly the same time as my coil fault appeared is nil so what is going on here? I guess I may be missing something. Does anyone know? Kind regards, Mike PS Ok a couple of further thoughts;- 1. The VSC codes I quoted I misread from the "ABS" list. They should have been various Yaw Sensor readings etc. but in this case I don't think this is relevant. 2. The OBD scanner I'm using can read engine codes but not the Lexus VSC codes etc. I got these from the multi-function display. I'm guessing that because my scanner can't read the VSC codes it also can't erase them and so I need to erase them manually using the method shown in the manual. Does that make sense?

As mentioned on my mis-fire thread this was solved by cleaning the coil's connector plug (female) sockets. Beats having to change the coil. Mike

Hi Guys, Sorry to be a while getting back but I had another problem arise in the meantime and I wasn't sure if it was related or not. Also, I thought it was solved by a replacement fuel injector "emulator" in the propane system but that turned out to be a red herring and the problem returned a couple of days later. Thanks CuriousB for all your input. To answer some of the issues you raised: 1. The system is a Prins VSI (vapor sequential injection). The liquid propane is fed via a vaporizer directly in the same way as the gasoline. 2. Regarding it being a warming up problem, there is a facility to switch manually between propane and gasoline so I was able to confirm it was not this. 3. You mentioned different ignition requirements for propane versus gasoline. Unfortunately it's the other way around and the propane mixture actually requires a higher voltage to get a spark to cross the gap - hence iridium plugs are essential to avoid mis-firing (having lower voltage requirements) - This factor ruled out the coils as I mentioned. Yes Landar the gasoline is used fairly slowly, I typically fill the tank about 1/4 and this lasts a couple of months. My propane converter encouraged me to change my spark plugs suggesting that they may be causing problems but why they would go away when switching to propane...... Anyway, we had all given up trying to understand and diagnose the problem so I agreed that it was probably time for action. What I did was: 1. Change all the spark plugs, 2. Put in a bottle of injector cleaner, and 3. Clean the Air Flow Sensor. The problem went away, which was good news. The next morning I had a mis-fire again which was a bit strange especially as this time it was present on propane and gasoline. However, this time the obd codes were different. No mis-fires, instead I got P1305 which was the coil circuit I mentioned in my original post. Firstly I tried cleaning the contacts on the coil, spraying them with switch cleaner and refitting as this is what cured it before. No good! I then swapped the coil with a good one to see if the problem moved - no good. Then tested the circuits for power, continuity and shorting - all fine. I assumed that the new plug must be ok, especially as this problem was intermittent/semi-heat related. I ruled out the ECU on account of cost - lol! That just left the coil connector. I realised that although I'd cleaned the coil's connection terminals, I hadn't cleaned the plug/female sockets. I did this with a sliver of folded wet/dry glass paper. It now all works fine!! Thanks so much for your continued support guys, I know I always say this but I really wouldn't be able to persevere with these problems by myself. Kind regards, Mike

Hi guys, My Ls430 has just done 250,000 miles so I decided to change my spark plugs which as you know involves removing the coil packs. A day or two later I get a P1305 obd-ll code which relates to the no.2 igniter coil along with a "mis-firing" feel - no other codes. This fault would appear after the car had warmed up and continue. However, after stopping the engine for 5 - 10 minutes the fault would disappear when I restarted BUT reappear after 10 -15 minutes etc etc. I tried swapping the coil with one from the other bank but no joy - same problem, same circuit, no. 2 Does anyone have any suggestions? I guess I simply have to test the continuity on the wires from the igniter coil plug to the engine ECU and the power and ground connections. I did previously (100,000 miles ago) have a similar problem with this coil but it was solved by spraying the plug with electric switch cleaner and re-fitting it. Could it be that the plug's connections have become so corroded that they are only making an intermittent connection. If so, is there a good way of cleaning them or if not can I get a new plug rather than the whole new loom. Any ideas welcomed. Kind regards, Mike Just to update this. I have been checking the ignition wiring and most items seem ok, ie. there is power where there should be power. There is continuity.... The only one that wasn't as I expected was the No. 2 pin on the Coil plug - the one that connects to pin 2 on coil 8 and thence to IF2R at the engine ECU. Having disconnected the ECU plug this section checked ok for continuity but for shorts it was another matter. Measured from the ECU end there was no shorting at all BUT from the Coil plug there was around 2k ohms. However, this was the same for two other Coil plugs so I didn't consider this significant. Not sure where to go from here???

Well I haven't had to ask a question for a while which must be a good thing BUT yesterday I had a problem and I'd appreciate some help with the diagnosis. Ok, bear in mind that I've had a propane (liquified petroleum gas) conversion so it runs on petrol or propane (we call propane gas over here which of course is confusing). I'll refer to gas(oline) as petrol. Anyway, this is the sequence of events:- 1. Start up from cold - immediately I notice it's running slightly rough (just like 100,000 miles ago when one of the coils needed seeing to) so I suspect a coil. 2. OBD11 codes registered are: 1) P0300 - Random/Multiple cylinder mis-fire, 2) P0301 - cylinder 1 mis-fire, 3) P0307 - cylinder 7 mis-fire, and 4) P0301 - cylinder 1 mis-fire (pending). 3. After a little while the engine warning light begins to flash - indicates that mis-firing may cause over-heating which may damage the calalytic converters. 4. A strong smell of exhaust fumes and possibly petrol is evident even inside the car and especially outside - I'm still feeling slightly sick as I write. 5. NOW, as the car is warmed up it switches automatically to propane gas - immediately the mis-firing stops completely 6. Another few seconds and the engine warning light stops blinking. 7. An OBD11 re-scan now shows NO CODES. 8. I tried switching between petrol and propane gas and found that this sequence would happily repeat itself. As I say, at first I suspected one of the coils and that possibly a poor connection or something was curing itself as the car warmed up. However the problem "mis-firing" is occurring only when running on petrol and NOT happening when I'm on propane - which is good as this should help with the diagnosis. eg. I think it rules out the coil/plugs part of ignition as the problem would be evident on both petrol AND propane. However, the car has to start on petrol and won't change to propane until the coolant is sufficiently hot. The problems with leaving it like this are: 1) Damage to catalytic converters, and 2) the clouds of white smoke whilst warming up. Does anyone have any clue as to what's happening here? Kind regards, Mike

Hi Mike, Many thanks for taking the trouble to share you experience, I've found this board such an encouragement to have a go at things I wouldn't have tried without this support. Because I'm a professional driver and very busy at the moment I asked my garage to do the work. They did manage to remove the hub in the manner you suggested and we got away without having to use the hub carrier or back plate which I will be returning today for a refund of £400 (around $600 I guess). It was almost "welded" on as you mentioned and they spent a long time using special pullers to get the hub off the carrier. I'm glad I didn't try myself as I don't have that range of tools. Anyway, new hub + bearings now installed so Lexy is back to it's usual ultra quiet self. The screw clip you mention we call a Jubilee clip in the UK, not sure if it's the same in the States. Regarding tightening ball joints, I suppose it's safe to leave them loose if there is a strong safety clip on the castellated nut. However, I had this problem when refitting the steering knuckle and front hub - ie. upper arm ball joint - like yours the tapered shaft didn't want to grip and also just went round and round. Someone recommended smearing toothpaste on the taper as it is abrasive. I used Loctite (thread locking fluid)and wedged the parts firmly together before smartly tightening the nut - phew, that was a relief. Thanks again! Mike

Haha! will let you know how it goes.

Ok, I just took the wheel off to have a look and you do have to removethe drive shaft as it blocks access to two of the hub bolts. That still leaves two questions: 1. Can you remove a drive shaft without first removing a tail pipe, and 2. Having removed the driveshaft, can you not then in bolt the hub and pull it off the carrier? This would avoid having to remove: 1. Suspension lower arms 1 & 2, 2. Upper suspension arm, 3. Toe rod, and 4. Shock absorber lower mounting. What is the point? All those ball joints can be so tiresome to seperate and refit. If anyone has done the job I'd love to hear from you. Regards, Mike

One of my rear wheel bearings has gone and I need to remove the old hub. The manual has a long process involving removing the entire axle carrier which in turn means removing the exhaust pipes and drive shafts. Has anyone been able to remove the hub without first removing the carrier? Thanks. Mike