Exterior Paint Detail Clarifications

[douglasmiami]

I'm having some difficulty with all of the products and terminology regarding detail of the exterior paint. Could someone please help?

- What is the difference between a "fine rubbing compound," a scratch remover and a swirl remover? How will the products for each of these differentiate themselves?

- For the Clay products, is it necessary to treat entire car, or just areas of need?

- Also, for a few pockets of swirl marks, is it recommended to treat the entire surface of car, or just where I notice imperfections?

- Between the processes of paint-cleaning clay, scratch/swirl removal. glazing, and sealing, is it necessary to wash my car repeatedly in between each of these steps?

- Many products are referred to as polishes, but have very different uses. How do I keep them straight? Glazes are called polishes, Swirl Removers are called polishes, Sealers are called polishes, etc.

Thanks.

[SW03ES]

What is the difference between a "fine rubbing compound," a scratch remover and a swirl remover? How will the products for each of these differentiate themselves?

Generally stay away from anything that calls itself a rubbing compound as these are VERY abrasive and damaging to the paint. Generally all these products fit into a classification as "Cleaners" and are rated based on abrasiveness. The best thing to do is honestly to just skip these products if working by hand because you're not going to be able to remove any swirls or scratches by hand, you need to hide them.

- For the Clay products, is it necessary to treat entire car, or just areas of need?

It depends. Once you get started you'll see that claying is so easy, I usually clay the entire car. If it feels gritty to you it needs to be clayed.

Between the processes of paint-cleaning clay, scratch/swirl removal. glazing, and sealing, is it necessary to wash my car repeatedly in between each of these steps?

Not if using compatible products. For instance all carnuaba waxes and some sealants can be applied over polishes. Some sealants require a perfectly clean surface but since you must hide swirl marks you shouldn't use these anyway.

Many products are referred to as polishes, but have very different uses. How do I keep them straight? Glazes are called polishes, Swirl Removers are called polishes, Sealers are called polishes, etc.

Generally don't get hung up on names, manufacturers just use names whenever they feel they sound nice.

[HRP]

Great advice SWO3ES.

Suggest Douglasmiami also check out http://autopia-carcare.com/ particularly the "learn" section. They have in depth instruction about car detailing and detailing products which can save you time, trouble, mistakes and money. And the discussion threads are quite instructive. I am a "Zaino Zealot" and would also suggest you visit www.zainostore.com and check out their "tips and tricks" section. Remember, the big secret to a dazzling car is the preparation. Applying the wax, polish, sealant, or glaze is usually the easiest part. And be prepared for a diversity of opinion about how to do it and which products to use. And don't forget that OCD really stands for "Obsessive Compulsive Detailer"

[douglasmiami]

Steve,

Thanks for the reply and advice. I have looked often at the Autopia site. In on article titled the "Perfect Shine," the author recommends a series of treatments as follows:

Wash / Clay / Swirl Remover / Glaze (P21S Paintwork Cleanser) / Sealed (Klasse All-in-One) / Waxed (Carnauba Wax).

Do you not recommend the Swirl Remover Polish? I have an orbital buffer I purchased from Sears. It's not industrial strength, just easier. Do you recommend using it anywhere in the above steps? Anywhere not to use it?

Your advice is really appreciated. Thanks for your time and attention.

DDS

[douglasmiami]

Steve,

Regarding washing car repeatedly, I have heard that a Dawn wash after a Swirl Mark Remover and after Polish (Glaze - P21S Paintwork Cleanser) is recommended. Can you clarify?

Also, regarding my original string above, I have a '99 RX 300 Black. Apparently color is important. Car was not babied by previous owner, but it's not in too bad of shape.

Thanks again.

[silvermate]

using dawn dishwashing soap removes all previous layers of wax

its good to use to get down to the bare clearcoat b/f starting your favorite process, then clay and so on so forth

but after u have a system on your car ie....cleaner, glaze, sealant, you don't want to use dawn, it will take it all off again, use a special formutlated car wash, ie meguiar's,mother's black magic, whatever you like

the swirl remover just hides the swirls it dosent' take them off unless you are using a PC or equivalent.

in conclusion washing with dawn after swirl remover and a glaze coat defeats the whole purpose of building your layers of shine, as it will just take it right off

[SW03ES]

You can TRY using the buffer you have with a cleaner and see if you can remove swirls. Lexus paint is pretty soft so you may be able to.

The step I would skip in that is the P21S GEPC. Klasse All in One is a chemical cleaner. The GEPC is basically just oils, its a great product but definately to be used with Carnuaba wax. The AIO will completely remove all the oils from the GEPC and the SMR, meaning those were just wasted steps. The Dawn wash would do the same.

I would reccomend using the SMR with the buffer and a terrycloth or foam bonnett, the GEPC (Or Meguiars #81 Hand Polish) with the buffer and a clean terrycloth or foam bonnet, and then waxing by hand with Meguiars #16 or #26 paste waxes. This will seal in the oils (that hide swirls) and provide you with moderate durability. To maintain the best look you will probably have to repeat these steps monthly as the oils will wear away and the swirls will return.

[douglasmiami]

Steve,

Thanks again for response. I'm sorry, but you've confused me. You say to skip the P21S Glaze step in first paragraph, but in second paragraph you imply skipping the Klasse All in One (sealant) step. Is it the application order of the products that you disagree with, or the need for one or more of the steps itself?

I've heard that the Klasse (Sealant) product with a good Carnauba Wax produces an amazingly deep shine. You're saying it's more of a cleaner than a sealant and not necessary? Just go straight to final wax from the glaze?

Would you recommend using electric buffer with the Carnauba Wax or doing it by hand?

Again, your advice is much appreciated.

[SW03ES]

Basically the P21S GEPC and the AIO aren't compatible. So you would choose one or the other. I suggest you use the P21S because of its swirl hiding characteristics, Klasse is best used when the paint can be completely prepped beforehand. The AIO is the first step in the Klasse system, its basically a cleaner and has little protective properties. The step after that would be Klasse Sealant Glaze which has the protection. Klasse is a great product but it doesn't hide any swirls. I'd skip the AIO.

You CAN apply the wax with the buffer but its just easier to apply paste waxes by hand.

[douglasmiami]

Steve,

I guess it's coming down to how necessary is it to "seal." The P21 doesn't sound like it seals, nor does the Klasse All in One. Also, if I use a Swirl Mark remover, would I still need to hide the swirl marks (hopefully they're gone)? When you refer to "prepping" for the Klasse, I'm planning to wash, clay, and then glaze/seal/wax. Is that sufficient prep?

Thanks for all your help.

DDS

[douglasmiami]

Steve,

Reading back over your posts, I realize that you disagree with trying to use swirl mark remover by hand, and therefore not trying to remove marks, but just hide them. Is it that you don't think that a small buffer will do the job? doing the job by hand wouldn't work?, or it's just easier to hide and wax more often?

DDS

[HRP]

I'm planning to wash, clay, and then glaze/seal/wax. Is that sufficient prep?

Wash after you clay to remove anything left. Use a regular carwash, you won't need Dawn then. And since you are in Miami, you're gonna get a lot of heat, humidity, salt, and sand, so I'd suggest a sealant rather than a wax for better and more durable protection. Some complete the detail with carnuba on top of a sealant for depth and more protection, but waxes just don't last as long as a good sealant. However, I don't know how much more depth you're gonna get than this::

http://www.autopia.org/forums/showthread.p...&threadid=37214

Of course Zaino has the polishes (sealants)Z-2 & Z-5,and the carwash Z-7 and the gloss to keep it looking good (Z-6). We Zaino Zealots just have to add those comments. www.zainostore.com

[SW03ES]

Zaino is just going to magnify your swirl marks. Products like Zaino that don't allow any type of oils or fillers to remain on the surface are best used when the car car be adequately prepped (all swirls removed from the surface). #16 is about as durable as carnuaba gets, no its not going to last as long as Zaino but it will allow you to hide your swirls.

Its worth a shot to try and remove the swirls with your buffer, might work, might not. Removing swirls is hard even with the proper equipment.

Another idea is to let a detailer buff out the swirls THEN you could use anything you want.

[HRP]

Zaino is just going to magnify your swirl marks. Products like Zaino that don't allow any type of oils or fillers to remain on the surface are best used when the car car be adequately prepped (all swirls removed from the surface). #16 is about as durable as carnuaba gets, no its not going to last as long as Zaino but it will allow you to hide your swirls.

Its worth a shot to try and remove the swirls with your buffer, might work, might not. Removing swirls is hard even with the proper equipment.

Another idea is to let a detailer buff out the swirls THEN you could use anything you want.

I agree that you should try to get rid of the swirls, but Z-5 doesn't magnify them, rather the opposite.

Here's the word on Z-5 from Autopia's reviews, followed by Zaino's description of Z-5 on their website www.zainostore.com (the emboldment is mine)

Z-5:

Packaging (3.40)

Instructions (3.60)

Ease of Use (3.80)

Slickness (4.60)

Gloss & Finish (4.40)

Sealant Durability (4.80)

MFG Claims (4.00)

Value (4.20)

Compared to Similar Items:

Packaging (3.39)

Instructions (3.35)

Ease of Use (3.91)

Slickness (3.95)

Gloss & Finish (4.13)

Sealant Durability (3.54)

MFG Claims (3.59)

Value (3.95)

Z-5 Show Car Polish for Swirl Marks and Fine Scratches

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FACT: The only way to permanently repair severe swirl marks and surface scratches in your paint is to have your car professionally machine buffed with abrasive compounds and polishes. This procedure is both expensive and dangerous.

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Like our other polishes, Z-5™ Show Car Polish contains state-of-the-art optical enhancers, gloss additives, and Ultra-Gard™ UV(40), our most advanced sunscreen.

Stop fighting with swirl marks. Let Z-5™ Show Car Polish fill those swirls until they disappear. We guarantee you will love the results.

[SW03ES]

If you read the posts on Autopia about Z-5 you'll see that the general consensus is that it doesn't really work, that has been my experience as well.

[douglasmiami]

Steve,

I ran into some time constraints this weekend and ended up doing a "quickie" job on my RX.

I washed twice to remove build up, but decided to forgo the clay and swirl mark remover. I used the Klasse AIO and followed with Klasse Sealant and then the Meguiar's #16. The paint came out beautifully, but the clear surface has also greatly magnified all of the scratches, nicks and swirl marks on the paint. I didn't realize to what extent until I saw today when the late afternoon sun hit the paint just right...so many minor scratches and defects in the paint. I was deflated.

In addition, the roof of the car is pretty bad in terms of water spots, very persistent bug stains and a variety of other splotches of unknown origin.

So, questions:

1. How often can I / should I repeat this polish/seal/wax routine? Does this process slowly remove paint, or is it completely safe?

2. What can be done about the horrid swirl marks and scratches? Do you think the Swirl Mark Remover is the key?

3. Any good suggestions for more abrasive product for the roof? Or would clay do the trick?

4. What's the best suggestion for softening or hiding nicks in the paint. I swear the previous owner followed overflowing dumptrucks as a hobby - a close inspection of the grill and hood after polishing revealed this.

Don't get me wrong, for the most part, and from a slight distance, the car looks great. But upon very close inspection, you can really see all the imperfections.

Thanks.

DDS

[douglasmiami]

Steve,

In general, what are your feelings on the Klasse products? Do they work well independently of each other, or do they only show impressive results when used together? For example, could I use the P21 polish and then a Klasse sealant followed by #16 paste wax?

[SW03ES]

I don't like Klasse, I think it looks cold and artificial and as you saw in your experience it magnifies defects in the paint. So you really have to remove all the defects before Klassing and that can be very frustrating and time consuming. Plus when you remove defects you remove paint. I prefer to remove what I can easily (which is most) and hide the rest, you just can't do that with a synthetic product like Klasse or Zaino. Topping it with a carnuaba helps the look but wont hide the imperfections.

Klasse AIO is a good oxidation remover, but other than that I have little use for Klasse.

How often can I / should I repeat this polish/seal/wax routine? Does this process slowly remove paint, or is it completely safe?

I wax every 2-3 months. When I wax I polish again with something mild and with nice oils like P21S GEPC and then seal with something compliant like Meguiars NXT, Poorboys EX or EX-P. Then maybe depending on my mood top with a wax like #16 or P21S. This is very safe as there is nothing really here to remove paint.

Now removing swirls DOES remove paint, and I only do this once or twice a year. By hand not much is going to happen though. If you perfect your washing routine swirls will not be as much of a problem.

2. What can be done about the horrid swirl marks and scratches? Do you think the Swirl Mark Remover is the key?

Honestly? You need a Porter Cable DA Polisher or make an appointment with a detailer to have them compound out the swirls and you can go from there. Its just too hard to remove swirls by hand.

3. Any good suggestions for more abrasive product for the roof? Or would clay do the trick?

Clay might work, also try a vinegar rinse to see if that will help.

4. What's the best suggestion for softening or hiding nicks in the paint. I swear the previous owner followed overflowing dumptrucks as a hobby - a close inspection of the grill and hood after polishing revealed this.

Compounding with a buffer will help as it will round off the edges but there isn't much that can be done.