'95 Ls 400

[boogieman]

Finally have an issue with my LS400. When starting the car the engine dies immediately upon shifting into reverse. A metallic ping can be heard from somewhere under the hood area then the car dies instantly.

The car is a well cared for '95, with all options and only 115,000 miles. I have owned it since '08. Checking with Lexus dealers, Lexus repair shops, transmission shops, no one has even the slightest clue what the problem might be.

Quoted from $65/hr to $105/hr to check with no guarantee. Trans rebuild, with no guarantee of resolving the issue, $3,000. Used trans from $600 to $800 range with $250 to $400 swap out labor fees.

The car is headed into my driveway next to the garage and cant even be moved to get it to someone who might can make repairs without a wrecker service.

Here in the local area these cars are selling in the $2500 range.

Registration due by the end of the month.

Any concrete diagnosis will be helpful.

[landar]

The first thing I would do is determine if the engine dies because it is put in reverse or because the engine is simply under a load. So, what happens when you put it in drive? I know you can't go forward but you can still put the engine under load by putting it in Drive with your foot on the brake.

And...what happens if you put it in reverse while 'feathering' the gas pedal, that is, giving the engine a little extra fuel with your right foot on the gas and left foot on the brake while you put it in reverse. In a sense, you are attempting to nurse the engine with fuel and keep it from dying.

[boogieman]

Have tried all the suggestions. Upon engaging reverse, a metallic noisy ping is clearly audible then instantly dies.

I cant get to drive with the engine running. Preloading the throttle, feathering the throttle, holding the brakes,

nothing will allow the engine to continue running upon shifting into reverse.

Of course it is an automatic so reverse has to be "transected" to get to drive due to the shift pattern

Engine runs fine, no CEL lights, completely as usual until shifted.

No previous trouble of any sort. No indication of anything failing. One day it just started doing what is doing.

Earlier this year I had to replace the alternator and the battery. Nothing unusual at all.

[Exhaustgases]

I have a 90 that made a noise kinda like you describe, it almost sounded like a loose torque converter to flex plate deal ie bolts backing out. But then after listening to it better it was more like the trans pump cavatating, and since the fluid change it stopped, it was a quart low too. Yours could be over advance causing a ping too. What does it idle at? Something else that could cause it to die is a wire that has worn through and when the engine moves from the load (it torques over) it pulls the wire apart and shuts it off.

When its running just try moving the wires by hand and see if that affects it. What happens when putting it in forward gears?

When in park can you rev it up just fine? Can you read any codes?

After re reading your posts, another thing it could be is the converter clutch is stuck in the engaged position. Does it feel like it wants to move the car and engages real hard? If you have ever driven a clutch car it would be like letting out the clutch real fast and kills the engine.

[boogieman]

When first starting up everything is normal. Cold start-up idles at app 1100 - 1200 rpm. Engine revs just fine.

No stumble, hesitation, everything perfectly normal, nothing different from the last 7 years of driving it.

No codes indicated.

The trans engages somewhat abruptly when shifting to reverse due to elevated idle rpm just as it has always done.

As soon as the trans engages the ping occurs and the engine dies instantly, no stutter, no hesitation, it dies right that second.

No way to check a forward gear as the shifter HAS to go through reverse to get to a forward gear. Engine dies before getting

out of reverse. If not for the factory semi-gated shift detent type housing on the console I might could get into a forward drive

position. The shifter plate requires a hesitation stop in reverse before moving the shift handle towards the driver to go

through neutral to drive.

The car is parked on my slightly sloped drive, front end elevated, so checking fluid level us inaccurate.

A couple of months back when I checked all the fluid levels, as I often do, everything checked normal.

The underside of the car is still clean and dry. Not one single indication of any component leaking any fluid.

This past January while changing the alternator I had my mechanic double check everything under the car.

He reported seeing nothing of even the slightest concern.

I've been going to these guys since 1980 and have been extremely pleased with their competence and professionalism.

They say there is nothing obvious, I believe them.

My trans guy has been a family friend since the late 1960's. He went to school with my brother. He says he has no idea

what the problem is from a transmission perspective. He too has been doing what trans work I need since 1980, too.

I an very comfortable with standard shift transmissions. Except for the clangy pinging noise the situation is very much

like dumping the clutch too quickly.

Since I drive the car less than 5,000/year, could there be something related to lack of usage? I find that hard to accept

but there it is.

As I stated, these cars are selling around here in the $2,500 range. Mine slightly higher due to condition and low mileage.

Last fall I was offered $3,600 but turned it down. Hindsight being what it is, perhaps I should have sold it then.

I am retired and have to live on a fixed income. Spending upwards of over half of what the car is worth seems foolish to me.

It is a 20 year old used car, albeit a very nice one. Economics say don't spend a exorbitant amount on repairs.

Thus my efforts to try to pin-down the problem to try to determine the app. repair costs.

Appreciate everyone's help greatly.

[boogieman]

One added matter is the timing belt was replaced at 98,000 miles just before I got the car in 2008.

Plus when using the cruise control the engine dies when coming to a stop. So I quit using it.

Dealership quoted me $1,500 to replace that particular ECU.

No other issues to report.

[landar]

What if you put the shifter in 'N' (neutral) and start the engine, then you can put it into Drive without going thru Reverse?

Based upon your descriptions, it really is starting to sound like your torque converter is stuck in the 'locked' position as Bob mentioned. In that position, it directly connects your engine crankshaft to the tranny gears with no slipping, just like dumping a clutch in a manual. That will stall the engine instantly...probably with a 'ping' sound from the engine as a large load is suddenly placed on it.

[boogieman]

Hadn't thought of that. Interesting. I will try that shortly and report back.

[boogieman]

Now I'm dumbfounded. Tried starting the car again. Started right up as usual. Idles at 1100 rpm.

Shifting into reverse , no issue at all. Turned the key off and tried again. Repeated 10 more times.

Only once did it ping then die when starting in park then shifting to reverse.

Started in neutral. Shifted to drive. No issues. Repeated several times.

Started it in neutral and shifted into reverse. No issue at all.

Engine idled down to app 700 rpm. Repeated all the above at least 10 more times.

No issue at all in any combination of starting gear, or trans gear selection. Shifting up, shifting down,

starting in park, starting in neutral, only once did the issue reappear during the 20 or so restarts..

Checked the trans fluid, nice clear red, no smell, looks great.

Engine oil at the full mark.

Do see the " check engine" light flashing and the "Traction Control Off" indicator blinking. This is new.

Haven't see it before. Any connection?

The trans was serviced in '08 at 98,000 when the timing belt was changed. Car only has 115,000 miles now.

I am the second owner.

Open to suggestions.

[boogieman]

What might be involved with the Traction Control Off indicator? Potentially expensive is my guess.

Great cars to own but costly to repair.

[landar]

See if you can read any engine codes. Yours is a 95 which is an in-between year for ODB methods. If it is a later 95, it "might" have an OBDII port but maybe not. You may have to jumper port pins to read out the code. But reading that code(s) would be the next step.

There is really nothing surprising about the symptoms coming and going...that is just an intermittent problem and happens all the time. It would be nice if it just stayed broken(for troubleshooting purposes) but it does not. I still suspect the torque convertor lockup mechanism or signal.

Reading the code(s) may provide a clue. The 95 has been reported to have some weird issues with the ECU. Lots of threads on that. Do you know how to do a search on this forum (it is not the most obvious).

[Exhaustgases]

The trac off means a code maybe set, and means its kind of a limp mode and having trac on is not a good idea as it could cause a problem so the ecu turns it off. You need to do like Randall says and see what OBD you have and get us the codes. You need a reader for the OBD2 and with OBD1 you just jumper some terminals and count the light pulses. The OBD2 readers are cheap now and can be used on any car from 1996 to now. You maybe dealing with the ecu capacitor issue as it could have set the Torque converter clutch to on, and being a random intermittent deal that could be it. Many have done the replacement them selves and parts are like $10 or so. Its just not fun removing the panels etc to remove the ecu or to desolder the caps. There is a good write up on clublexus.

[boogieman]

I have a reader that belongs to my son. It and the car are OBDII. Plugged it in and half of the read-out is illegible. Got it to my mechanic to check out.

Can't get to it today though. He tells me the CEL might cause the TC to flash but not be specific to that function.

I'll know tomorrow.

Also wondered if the cruise control being activated but not set could have some bearing on the problem.

Reluctantly allowed our daughter to borrow the car a few weeks ago. Wonder if she tried to use the cruise ?

I tried pushing the button but see no differentiation in the switch between off and on. forgot to check the

instrument panel for that light.

Intermittent issue or not, a car that I can't count on is my next "used to have one" car.

The search function here was helpful in narrowing down the possibilities. Big help.

Might need to touch base again with my transmission guy too.

Appreciate all the help and advice. At least I got it out of the driveway and to my mechanic.

I'll report back when I know something. Might be able to help the next guy with a similar, or the same, problem.

[landar]

Yes, Boogie, please let us know what you do find. It will be a big help to the next guy and I am curious about what you find. It will help me to improve my troubleshooting skills in general. Thanks.

[Exhaustgases]

You could buy a brand new car and have the same type of problems. Only difference is some times the warranty will cover it. And sometimes not. Then you have a "used to have one" with big payments. Lots of horror stories like that on the net. Especially major engine failures at very low miles.

[boogieman]

Waiting on my mechanic to call, probably later though.

I've owned over 300 cars and never had a problem like this.

Troubling and frustrating at best.

So while I'm waiting on him, it's time to get my '79 Avanti out.

[boogieman]

Bad news all around. The check engine light and codes therein reveal multiple issues that cant be cleared.

Among those are Intermittent crank signal, wiring harness malfunctions, transmission shut down (limp mode),

erratic signals to and from the main computer, ignition shut down, and possible other related unknowns.

At an unknown cost to further diagnose, plus possible component costs, including possibly a main control board,

labor costs, etc, , looks like this is my next "used to own" vehicle.

The local market is around $2500 for a well used one. With the problems this one has, hardly worth much more than scrap value.

Had I the space and time I would part it out but I don't.

Electrical gremlins have claimed another very good car.

Too hard to track down, too expensive to repair or replace.

Appreciate all the help but must decide what to do now.

[sha4000]

Have you thought about the ECU capacitor fix?

http://www.clublexus.com/forums/ls400/656360-all-my-crazy-lexus-issues-solved-ecu-leaking-capacitor.html

[boogieman]

No I hadn't considered that. Not at all electrically knowledgeable. No idea which one or even what it might look like.

This all may be moot at this point. Mechanic called to say they were closing and the car was parked out front.

"By the way, thought you would like to know the CEL is off and no indicators lit-up on the dash.

Seems to be working right now."

Got there, started right up. Slipped into reverse easily. Into drive easily. No indicator lamps lit.

Drove it home with no incident. Parked. Turned off. Restarted it. Went into reverse with no problem.

Repeated several more times. No problems. No lights.

Now what do I do? Wait until it crashes again? Sell it while it is working?

Is this a one time gremlin, an anomaly, or an omen of impending disaster?

Frustrating..

[boogieman]

Outstanding write-up about the capacitors, Craig. Reading the text, I see all my issues listed therein.

How difficult are those to obtain? Is there someone who does this regularly?

Great info to have. I mean, Who knew?

Thanks again.

[landar]

As I mentioned earlier, this is typical of intermittent problems. I know. I have worked in embedded electronics everyday for the last 30 yrs. I design embedded computers and program them...just like the ECU that controls your engine. I am not trying to "brag" my credentials, just saying that I have seen a lot of electronics issues.

So, Boogieman, do not get discouraged with how your LS400 is behaving. ALL of the symptoms, although seemingly unrelated, are in fact, related. You may be thinking "bad crank sensor, bad wiring harness, bad transmission", etc. However, it is most probably due to ONE simple issue. Like a bad ground connection. Or too much A/C on the system, whether alternator, or ECU capacitors (more likely).

Now, if you want to dump your 95, I may be interested. Depending upon where you live and how much you want for her. But I suspect that you are not quite ready to part with her. This issue may look very hopeless but I guarantee it is something rather simple.

[boogieman]

Thanks Randall. Being a 47 year survivor of the construction industry, I always left electrical issues to the experts.

I know, different animal, but equally baffling to the uninitiated none-the-less.

I can understand how one problem can initiate another and the dominoes begin to cascade.

I really don't want to part with my LS unless there are continuing issues. I like the car

and enjoy driving it.

Like any other piece of equipment, when it takes more than it is worth dealing with it, it is time to go.

I hope I haven't reached that point yet. I suppose this might not rear it's ugly head again but possibilities abound.

In a quick side note, this is our 2nd LS. First was a '93 that we enjoyed until I was broadsided at 40 mph by a '78 Ford

3/4 ton pickup right between the drivers side doors. I was spun around and did a header, nose first, centered between the headlights, into a large tree. Air bags deployed, lost consciousness, woke to EMT cutting me out of the wreckage.

I walked to the ambulance. The car was totaled. I am sold on Lexus safety. That's why we have this one.

I'm located in Dallas in the Republic of Texas. I have a friend in South Bend, home of the Avanti. You know Mike?

(Sorry bout that, I couldn't resist)

[landar]

If your LS is a Texas Lexus then no rust. Thats a big plus.

You are also close to Billy Powell in Carrollton. He is a retired mechanic with lots of LS400 knowledge and experience.

With your symptoms, it is highly likely that your ECU is acting up and causing all of these problems. It also might be acting up because it is not 'happy' with the power being supplied to it. Like an alternator that is throwing excessive ripple onto the system. If you are not adverse to throwing a little money at it, you might consider just having the alternator replaced. Then see how she behaves. However, it may be the ECU itself or a connection to it that is misbehaving.

And if you get too frustrated with her, maybe we can work out a deal and put her on a truck headed to South Bend? ^_^ And yes, I know Mike. There are all sorts of Studebakers in the area. Even a museum.

[sha4000]

Outstanding write-up about the capacitors, Craig. Reading the text, I see all my issues listed therein.

How difficult are those to obtain? Is there someone who does this regularly?

Great info to have. I mean, Who knew?

Thanks again.

Not my write up but your welcome. I agree with landar. You might want to be proactive on the capacitor issue. All the info is in the linked thread. Just take your time and read.

[landar]

I am curious about something boogieman...you stated earlier that you have owned 300 cars in your life. Thats a lot of cars. Are you a car dealer of sorts?