Thinking About Buying A '93 Es300

[Mister-Z]

Greetings, all you Lexus afficionado's!

I've been lurking your forums for a week or two - ever since I began to consider this car seriously. I've been hunting for a cheap but reliable Honda/Toyota in the $2-3k range (I'm a poor !Removed!!) and ended up finding this 1993 ES300 offered by a private seller. It's estimated at 150k miles - the odometer apparently stopped working at 52k <_< but this old lady just doesn't seem like any of the shady car people I've encountered in my life so I'm not too worried about that.

First, let me say thanks already because I've learned alot here and it's been a guiding force in my decision making process :D I've read the FAQ and done lots of searching, and am left with just a couple of questions unanswered.

This car has a few cosmetic issues (mostly interior) and is mechanically fair. The asking price is $2750 - I'm thinking I can get it for $2600. I just saw it today and had these uber-certified 'Auto P.I.' guys run a 600-point check on it, and this guy was quite impressive. He went over for 45 minutes or so and then broke it down for me.

Basically, the engine has been loved. On-the-spot oil changes, new air filter/timing belt (or is it chain?) etc. But the valve cover gasket is leaking a little oil (he gave it a '2' on a 1-10 scale) and the valves need re-adjusting anyway. Also, the transmission has been a bit neglected - the fluid was described as 'dark and burnt' and the left trans. axle & pan gasket are leaky. Other than that, it's rear brakes are due (front ones are new), needs a new CV boot, struts - but those apparently can wait a couplafew months. Also the washer resivior is rotted out - but I can wash my windows at a gas station B)

I've already figured it a decent buy - at cost + repairs I'm paying about what I'd expect to pay for any Toyota of it's age, mileage and condition (at Toyota/Honda with 200k+ can go for $3-4k around here if it's in decent shape). BUT my city just instated emissions testings as part of inspection, and this car has not been inspected this year.

Which brings us - finally (I'm a long-winded !Removed!!) - to the question: Will these transmission issues and/or the mild oil leak impair it's ability to pass emissions? I found a thread here that discusses the 93 ES300's ability to pass emissions, I know it should as long as things are kosher but I dunno if it's quite that kosher

Any insight is greatly appreciated!

[monarch]

Car sounds like a money pit to me because the owner(s) had a "lube oil and filter every X number of miles and don't touch anythig else unless it breaks" attitude about car care. Little old lady cars ARE great cars, but you have to get em before they have more than about 60,000 miles because after that the consequences of ""lube oil and filter" mentality can begin to become severe. The odometer is broken story is suspicious as I've never heard of any breaking on any Toyotas built since about 1974.

Specifically you're probably going to be needing a new transmission, new cylinder head gaskets, radiator, new oxygen sensor, catalytic converter, front axles, valve cover gaskets and a valve clearance check for starters.

If you need reliable transportation and have only $2-3K to spend you can find it in a mid-90's low mileage Toyota Corolla or Camry owned by a senior who is selling because he/she is too old to drive or has passed away (estate sale). Avoid the '98 model Corolla and the '97 Camry. The '97 and earlier Corollas and '94-'96 Camry's are the most bulletproof.

[Mister-Z]

Car sounds like a money pit to me because the owner(s) had a "lube oil and filter every X number of miles and don't touch anythig else unless it breaks" attitude about car care. . .

←

Well, they seem to have taken a bit better care than that. They had service records (some recent, some not), which I perused but didn't really study, for several things beyond the basic tune-up.

The diagnostic guy told me that he had expected the transmission to slip during the test drive but it didn't, and it's just the front left axle that's leaking (well, that and the pan gasket). Do these problems really spell doom for the transmission? Gya, I wish I knew more about cars in general

Are all those other things apt to fail because they're old, or do they have to do with the transmission?

[Toysrme]

$2500 is a good deal after you pay everybody & do some maintanence on it.

(Timing belt)

CV boot needs to be done ASAP. When they split they fling the grease they hold at. This causes an extreme wear rate on the joint itself wearing it out quickly. From there they click while you turn - then click all the time - then the joint snaps in half & you've got 1 wheel drive.

Valve cover gaskets leak. I'm guessing you've found that out by now! ;) Normally they just drip every now & then - hitting the Y-pipe (exhaust crossover/merge) & smoking. Doesn't hurt the engine, but it's annoying.

Not really a big deal to changing them, but if you don't wanna it's not going to be expencive to have an Indy mechanic do it.

Valve adjustment is the biggest pain in the !Removed! ever. What's the deal? Does it tick anytime the engine is spinning?

The fluid was described as 'dark and burnt' and the left trans. axle & pan gasket are leaky.

Not a problem, drop the transmission pan & give everything a quick wipe down. Scrape the old cork gasket material off & use acetone to clean all traces of oil off (Bad stuff for you, but about nothing will eat the oil faster). From there I like Ultra Black RTV, but you can use another cork gasket - whatever floats your boat.

When it's back on fill it, run it around the block, park, shift to all positions so fluid 100% circulates. Top the fluid level off.

From there either:

1) Flush it

2) Drain & re-fill it atleast another 2 times - would be better to do it another 3 times & the more the merrier since you can't change all the fluid via a drain & fill.

If you want to drive this thing into the ground on that transmission, this is also a good time to go get you some 3/8" fuel/oil hose & add an auxillary transmission cooler.

Rear brakes Nothing to it. 1 Loosen lugs 2 jack car 3 take wheel off 4 unbolt one 14mm nut & flip caliper upwards 5 remove old pads 6 suck some fluid out of the brake resivoir 7 C-clamp the piston back 8 apply anti-squeak to new, pad-shim & piston 9 install pads in reverse order.

struts I know the feeling. ;)

Washer resivior is rotted out - but I can wash my windows at a gas station 

ROTFLMAO!

I like you!

Any Gen3 Camry washer tank will work. Check junkyards, call TAP Recycling

Always some on ebay around $30 shipped

These transmission issues and/or the mild oil leak impair it's ability to pass emissions?

If the cat & EGR work, it should pass unless it's running really rich, or really lean.

Just flush the transmission & change the valve cover.

You're really looking at a hundred-couple hundred bucks to get it where you can drive it around & not worry about stuff.

A full tune-up would only run a few hundred if you paid someone.

(Flush transmission, powersteering, brakes, oil, change differential fluid

New plugs, distributor cap & rotor - check wires do not replace if OK

2x o2 sensors, check for vacuum leaks, new air filter, new PCV valve

Clean upper intake manifold/TB/EGR/IAC valves)

If you did it yourself that's about $175-220 depending on what kinda stuff you got on hand & local stores etc. + 90-200 for plug wires + $20-50 for an intake hose - if they're busted.

Car sounds good to me. It doesn't need anything anybody else's v ES/Camry

needs by 90,000 miles. Just normal preventative maintenance stuff.

Don't mind monarch.

I say if you've got 2000-3000 to spend, buy a Civic for $500, turbo it for another $1000, then spend $1000 on maintenece items & upgrades. You'll still get 30-40mpg, or skip the turbo & have your next year's worth of insurance paid.

[Mister-Z]

Toysrme, I was hoping you'd have an opinion :-) I figured I'd try to do some of the basic stuff myself but most will probably be by mechanic.

The diagnostic fellow said that the engine ticks, but you can only hear it when you've got the hood up listening for it. Does this become problematic?

[Toysrme]

Really depends on where it ticks from. Lotsa things can tick. Ticking is really a kinda hard thing to do over the internet.

If you've got the car, stick your head in the engine bay. Use your ear to triangulate the posision the ticking is coming from & then maybe we can figure it out. About anything that rotates can cause a tick.

If it's the valves/lifters it'll come from inside the valve covers

If it's the valves I wouldn't worry about it until you can get around to doing something about it.

There isn't overly dangerous about putting your head in the engine bay. Avoid touching the positive battery terminal & anything else, don't touch a rotating belt (The FAN won't hurt you), try not to touch anything hella hot.

[tckcumming]

Which brings us - finally (I'm a long-winded !Removed!!) - to the question:  Will these transmission issues and/or the mild oil leak impair it's ability to pass emissions?  I found a thread here that discusses the 93 ES300's ability to pass emissions, I know it should as long as things are kosher but I dunno if it's quite that kosher 

Any insight is greatly appreciated!

←

I've owned a '93 ES300 for about 8 years - have put about 100,000 miles on it in that time. Mine has been well looked after, everything fixed as soon as it needed attention and preventative maintenance done as needed. Here are some insights from me:

* my valve cover gaskets leak oil every once in a while, too - they all do! Get it fixed if it bugs you, but it hurts nothing to drive it as is.

* I've had both CV boots replaced in the past - no big deal IF done as soon as they split! As mentioned in a previous post, the spinning motion of the driveshaft flings the grease out of the split in the boot. Joint failure isn't far behind if not attended to promptly. If you hear a clicking sound when you crank the wheels one way or the other as you drive, the joint is shot. No click - joint is OK. For that matter, it's not that expensive to replace the whole axle with aftermarket parts, if necessary.

* brakes are a "consumable" item, in my opinion. They need to be repaired / replaced every few years. No different for a Lexus than any other car. Mine have been done several times over the years - no big deal.

* valve adjustment - probably not necessary, in my experience. Mine have never been adjusted, only "inspected" by the Lexus techs (they open the hood, listen for clicking valves, pronounce them "within tolerance", and close the hood. They charge whatever they think they can get away with for this highly technical service.) Are the valves in yours really noisy?? Valve adjustment is a major P.I.T.A., and expensive to boot. Don't do it unless you have to!

* struts are also items that need to be replaced every so often - in any car, not just a Lexus. Lots of info on this site about where to get them, how much they cost, how to change, etc. No big deal.

* my washer fluid tank has cracks all around the top. So - I fill it up about 3/4 of the way and pretend it's fine! No problem.

* transmission is more of a "crap shoot". If it's not slipping or making any noises or clunks, it's probably OK. A good flush & refill should fix you up. But be aware - neglecting any automatic transmission (by driving for many miles with burnt fluid or low fluid level) can lead to expen$$ive repair bills. A bit of a gamble, like any used car. Your call!

* I'd be suspicious of the "broken odometer" story - too easy to pass off a worn-out, super high mileage piece of junk with a convenient broken odo. See if you can contact the previous owner to confirm the current mileage or at least the fact that the odometer broke long ago. Or check dates, etc. on the service records. A bit of digging for info now will save lot of disappointment later!

You're taking a chance with any used car, especially one that is 12 years old. BUT - - - if you can purchase a decent ES300 for the amount you mentioned and put a few hundred $$ into it to make it reliable & safe, I say go for it! A Lexus is a great bet as a used car, reliability and longevity are real strong points. I'd buy another one in a second. In fact, I've owned two - a '92 and my '93.

Let us know what you decide.

tck...

[bob95603]

Regarding passing emissions with the oil leak and transmission issue, you'll have to check Texas vehicle inspection law to see what they look for. Each state is different, and some states have inpections only if you live in a major city. I use to live in NY and at that time you couldn't pass inpection if you had a cracked windshield or needed shocks. Now in Calif and they only care about emissions and they check your gas cap. Best bet is to see if you can get a pre-inspection test. Most states have it. I wouldn't think that the oil leaks or transmission would stop the car from passing inspection though. Also check the law. In Calif the seller has to have the car inspected, not the buyer.

There's probably nothing wrong with the transmission other than the fluid not being changed. Recently bought a 90 es250 and it had hard shifting between gears. I changed the fluid once, ran it for about 300 miles and dropped the transmission pan today. I had expected to find it full of sludge but it was remarkedly clean for a 15 year old car although the magnet in the pan was full of sludge. It's shifting a lot better than it did with only a slight hard shift between 2-3. Once you get all that crap out of the transmission it will probably last forever.

Get the windshield reservoir at a salvage/junk yard. Whilie you're there, get any interior items you'd need also. Brakes are pretty easy to do yourself. If the transmission fluid was neglected, I'd flush out the brake fluid, power steering fluid as well as the coolant also.

You can hold off on the engine work temporarily by tightening down the valve covers ever so slightly. Add a little Lucas Oil Treatment to the oil to see if it eliminates the tapping. That will buy you some time if you're cash poor right now (who isn't?). If only the CV boot is spit, get it fixed asap as you'll want to eliminate replacing the front axle if possible. I had seen somewhere on the internet a splitable boot that you can install yourself. Don't know where it was though. Best bet is to put on a new one though. Don't know how hard it is to replace the struts.

Hope this helps.

[Mister-Z]

Appreciate your words, everyone :) Nobody I talk to irl has much experience with Lexus, so this is very helpfull!

Regarding the MILEAGE - Well, it was never stated that it's broken and I think my ignorance had the best of me there. On the diagnostic list is has the mileage written as 50,020 or so and a note that said 'Seller says 150k'. Neither the seller nor the mechanic mentioned the odo. to me, which I found odd when I noticed this note. So I assumed it was broken, until an hour or so a go when a friend of mine told me that old cars often roll over back to 0 after 100k. Does the '93 ES300 roll over at 100k? That would be very reassuring for me!

Still kicking the idea around but I am leaning towards buying it B) I just don't think there's any car out there in my price range that isn't going to have similar issues. I'll definately let ya'll know if I join the club!

[monarch]

Car sounds like a money pit to me because the owner(s) had a "lube oil and filter every X number of miles and don't touch anythig else unless it breaks" attitude about car care. . .

←

Well, they seem to have taken a bit better care than that. They had service records (some recent, some not), which I perused but didn't really study, for several things beyond the basic tune-up.

The diagnostic guy told me that he had expected the transmission to slip during the test drive but it didn't, and it's just the front left axle that's leaking (well, that and the pan gasket). Do these problems really spell doom for the transmission? Gya, I wish I knew more about cars in general

Are all those other things apt to fail because they're old, or do they have to do with the transmission?

←

[monarch]

Mister-Z, I suggest you study some of ArmyofOne's earliest posts in the archives about what happened after he bought a '90 ES250 that had fewer miles than the ES you are considering. Even though Army is knowledgeable about auto maintenance and repair, he STILL had to pump about $5,000+ in repairs and maintenance within a few months of buying his '90 ES250. There are many more horror stories like this in the archives involving young people who thought they were getting a "great deal" on a low priced early 90's ES.

Since you do not currently have an owners manual for an early '90's ES you don't realize how much preventive maintenance is needed and how much was neglected by the former owner and the potential $5,000 - $7,500 consequences of this neglect.

Like I said before, instead of buying a money trap Lexus in marginal mechanical condition, you could buy a low mileage, senior owned mid-90's Toyota Corolla or Camry and then you won't hardly have to worry about the consequences of maintenance neglect because a Toyota with only 50,000 or 60,000 miles is too young for much serious damage to have occurred, even if neglected.

[Toysrme]

Does the '93 ES300 roll over at 100k? That would be very reassuring for me!

:(

I just don't think there's any car out there in my price range that isn't going to have similar issues. I'll definately let ya'll know if I join the club!

Pretty much true. You just deal with different ideosyncrasies for different stuff.

Obviously A/T transmission lifespan can't be known - unless damage is present beforehand & you can say - we'll that POS is gonna die real soon!

On the engine, get a compression test done. 178psi normal 142psi minimum no more than 14psi between 'em. 160+ is good. 150's & either the cam timing is off - or the rings are wearing.

For the money they're good cars - obviously that opinion is biased, but better daily driver cars for less money come few & far in between.

Anyway it goes let us know.

[Mister-Z]

The odo. thing is a real bummer. I feel good about the car otherwise, but a bum odo. and the seller never mentioned it? Shady doin's . . .

*EDIT* - I did a carfax, it's last odo. reading was in '97, at 60,100 or so. Since it's electronic, could it have short circuited or something? Or is this almost definately tampering? If it once read 60k why would it now read 50k? Wtf?

Mister-Z, I suggest you study some of ArmyofOne's earliest posts in the archives about what happened after he bought a '90 ES250 that had fewer miles than the ES you are considering. Even though Army is knowledgeable about auto maintenance and repair, he STILL had to pump about $5,000+ in repairs and maintenance within a few months of buying his '90 ES250.  There are many more horror stories like this in the archives involving young people who thought they were getting a "great deal" on a low priced early 90's ES. 

. . .

Like I said before, instead of buying a money trap Lexus in marginal mechanical condition, you could buy a low mileage, senior owned mid-90's Toyota Corolla or Camry and then you won't hardly have to worry about the consequences of maintenance neglect because a Toyota with only 50,000 or 60,000 miles is too young for much serious damage to have occurred, even if neglected.

←

A mid 90's Camry or Corolla with only 60k on it would run at least $4,500 here :cries: I've been keeping an eye on the classifieds, local online listings, used dealerships for about a month now and I can say this with fair certainty. On the occasion that such a deal does surface it get's bought very quickly - lottery odd's of me finding such an ideal catch (not that I haven't been trying)!

I read some of ArmyofOne's posts. Exactly what I'm trying to avoid! I wish I'd asked for a copy of the service records - they had quite a few - this person lives a little ways out of town and I can't just run over there. I need a better idea of what all they took care of with this car . . . but there's still the odo, casting doubt on the whole thing

[monarch]

I've had good luck finding used cars offered for sale by private parties at cars.com.

Cars.com essentially allows you to search classified newspaper ads nationwide or just in your local area. For a really promising car it can be worth the one way bus or plane fare to pick it up.

One reason cars.com is good is because many senior citizens have never learned anything about computers or the internet, so they place ads for their cars only in the local newspapers, never on ebay or craigslist. Cars.com gives you the ability to search through the newspaper ads that were placed by seniors.

[ZINFANDEL22]

   

The odo. thing is a real bummer.  I feel good about the car otherwise, but a bum odo. and the seller never mentioned it?  Shady doin's . . . 

*EDIT* - I did a carfax, it's last odo. reading was in '97, at 60,100 or so.  Since it's electronic, could it have short circuited or something?  Or is this almost definately tampering?  If it once read 60k why would it now read 50k?  Wtf?

Mister-Z, I suggest you study some of ArmyofOne's earliest posts in the archives about what happened after he bought a '90 ES250 that had fewer miles than the ES you are considering. Even though Army is knowledgeable about auto maintenance and repair, he STILL had to pump about $5,000+ in repairs and maintenance within a few months of buying his '90 ES250.  There are many more horror stories like this in the archives involving young people who thought they were getting a "great deal" on a low priced early 90's ES. 

. . .

Like I said before, instead of buying a money trap Lexus in marginal mechanical condition, you could buy a low mileage, senior owned mid-90's Toyota Corolla or Camry and then you won't hardly have to worry about the consequences of maintenance neglect because a Toyota with only 50,000 or 60,000 miles is too young for much serious damage to have occurred, even if neglected.

←

A mid 90's Camry or Corolla with only 60k on it would run at least $4,500 here :cries: I've been keeping an eye on the classifieds, local online listings, used dealerships for about a month now and I can say this with fair certainty. On the occasion that such a deal does surface it get's bought very quickly - lottery odd's of me finding such an ideal catch (not that I haven't been trying)!

I read some of ArmyofOne's posts. Exactly what I'm trying to avoid! I wish I'd asked for a copy of the service records - they had quite a few - this person lives a little ways out of town and I can't just run over there. I need a better idea of what all they took care of with this car . . . but there's still the odo, casting doubt on the whole thing

←

Mister Z, I may have missed something but has this ederly woman owned the car since new? If she did regular oil changes you could add it up I would think with some paper work here and there should help some.

[norbertk]

What exactly is wrong with the ODO, is the screen just dead that displays it? The mileage is stored in the cluster as I've found out, I just turned my low mileage 120k cluster that didn't work for one with a working one at 180k.

[Mister-Z]

Well, let me clarify she's not exactly a 'little old lady' more like a just-getting-honest-old lady with grown up kids. She says her sister was the original owner - and according to carfax, it was originally purchased here in Tx and stayed mostly in one town, then came here so it seems plausible.

I feel like a gimp, because I let the mechanic do all the looking for me. It's my third time buying a used car, first time not leaning on my parents doing it I didn't observe the odometer myself. I looked the car over, but skipped that very important detail. The mechanic mentioned it I believe, but he told me a lot of stuff in short order and once again I failed to observe the significance. I didn't realize that something was amiss with the odo. until I got home and started reading over that inspection record.

* * * EDIT * * *

As soon as I posted this thread, the seller called me back. She said that the ODO went out at about 100k, and the Lexus dealership put in a new chip and reset it back to zero - thus it now being 150k. She has the records for it as well, aparently.

So . . . .

WOOOOHOOO!!! I'm still not sure (told her I'd tell her tommorow), but the fact that it's not shady makes a world of difference and puts me back on the 'probably gonna go for it' side :) :) :)

Edited December 17, 2005 by Mister-Z

[charly horse]

On 12/15/2005 at 6:06 PM, Mister-Z said:

Greetings, all you Lexus afficionado's!

I've been lurking your forums for a week or two - ever since I began to consider this car seriously. I've been hunting for a cheap but reliable Honda/Toyota in the $2-3k range (I'm a poor !Removed!!) and ended up finding this 1993 ES300 offered by a private seller. It's estimated at 150k miles - the odometer apparently stopped working at 52k <_< but this old lady just doesn't seem like any of the shady car people I've encountered in my life so I'm not too worried about that.

First, let me say thanks already because I've learned alot here and it's been a guiding force in my decision making process :D I've read the FAQ and done lots of searching, and am left with just a couple of questions unanswered.

This car has a few cosmetic issues (mostly interior) and is mechanically fair. The asking price is $2750 - I'm thinking I can get it for $2600. I just saw it today and had these uber-certified 'Auto P.I.' guys run a 600-point check on it, and this guy was quite impressive. He went over for 45 minutes or so and then broke it down for me.

Basically, the engine has been loved. On-the-spot oil changes, new air filter/timing belt (or is it chain?) etc. But the valve cover gasket is leaking a little oil (he gave it a '2' on a 1-10 scale) and the valves need re-adjusting anyway. Also, the transmission has been a bit neglected - the fluid was described as 'dark and burnt' and the left trans. axle & pan gasket are leaky. Other than that, it's rear brakes are due (front ones are new), needs a new CV boot, struts - but those apparently can wait a couplafew months. Also the washer resivior is rotted out - but I can wash my windows at a gas station B)

I've already figured it a decent buy - at cost + repairs I'm paying about what I'd expect to pay for any Toyota of it's age, mileage and condition (at Toyota/Honda with 200k+ can go for $3-4k around here if it's in decent shape). BUT my city just instated emissions testings as part of inspection, and this car has not been inspected this year.

Which brings us - finally (I'm a long-winded !Removed!!) - to the question: Will these transmission issues and/or the mild oil leak impair it's ability to pass emissions? I found a thread here that discusses the 93 ES300's ability to pass emissions, I know it should as long as things are kosher but I dunno if it's quite that kosher

Any insight is greatly appreciated!

I have a 98 Lexus ES300 with 120 miles no leaky anything and if i were to sell my car i would ask for that 2750. Don't do it i fix everything on my car myself, and the parts is what kills me. if the transmission haven't been done most likely you will have to change the pan the drain nut and gasket and 4 quarts of toyota ATF. i did all of that buying only genuine Lexus parts and i spend 180 and 2 hrs of time to get the pan off. if you want to buy it i would offer only 1000 but don't . Unless you are mechanically incline the labor will also kill your budget. i have emission test in mass too and 93 is not subject to emission test in any state.