Ride Getting Harsh

[nc211]

I've got a 95 ls400 w. 94k miles. I'm noticing the ride is starting to slip. I'm feeling all the cracks in the road now from the front and through the steering wheel. I've replaced the lower ball joints, all motor and tranny mounts too. I'm wondering if it's bushings or strut cushions? It feels loose, doesn't have that quiet and smooth feel over bumps. If I go over one of those marker lights in the road, good lord, sounds and feels like I ran over a curb. Any suggestions oh masterful ones?

Thanks!

[ArmyofOne]

I've got a 95 ls400 w. 94k miles. I'm noticing the ride is starting to slip. I'm feeling all the cracks in the road now from the front and through the steering wheel. I've replaced the lower ball joints, all motor and tranny mounts too. I'm wondering if it's bushings or strut cushions? It feels loose, doesn't have that quiet and smooth feel over bumps. If I go over one of those marker lights in the road, good lord, sounds and feels like I ran over a curb. Any suggestions oh masterful ones?

Thanks!

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Strut rods. check em.

if those arent the culprit (most likely they are) move on to bigger issues, since you have eliminated all the other things that could cause this, check strut mount bushings, check for a decompressed strut, then check the Rack and Pinion. the bushinsg that hold the rack and pinion are rubber and they detieiorate over time. as they do, the rack begines to bounce on its metal support frame every time you hit a bump.

[nc211]

Would they also cause a wobble when accelerating? Especially felt in the steering wheel. I just had it balanced and ailigned at dealership. Strut rods? Are they the #12 part in this picture I attached? Or do you mean the strut itself?

Thanks Army!

[ArmyofOne]

Would they also cause a wobble when accelerating? Especially felt in the steering wheel. I just had it balanced and ailigned at dealership. Strut rods? Are they the #12 part in this picture I attached? Or do you mean the strut itself?

Thanks Army!

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not likely to cause a wobble when accelerating (sounds like a ball joint). let me ask you this, does your steering wheel come back to center after a turn? any excessive play in the steering at all?

and yes, #12 is the strut rod.

[nc211]

Funny you mention that, it's starting to feel as if there is some play, I notice a small bit of wandering. I just had the lower ball joints replaced. It doesn't really come back to center, it sort of just stays where it is, but that also depends on my speed too. The wobble feels like a tire is not on very tightly, does that make sense? You know when you see a car and the tire is wobbling around? It feels like that, but not as severe.

[nc211]

By the way, I've been reading some of the other posts, it sounds like you've got one sweet pad! Pool and all! Nice!!

[ArmyofOne]

:D

By the way, I've been reading some of the other posts, it sounds like you've got one sweet pad! Pool and all! Nice!!

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does the direction the wheel stays pointed depend on the last turn made?

what i am saying is on mine, when i made a right turn, the wheel was off centered to the right, when i made a left turn it was off centered to the left. it would stay this way until i made another turn.

it sounds liek your rack and pinion may be on the way out. but this could also be a wheel bearing. does it make any kind of groaning or squeal noises? also could be a bad sturt mount/decompressed strut.

to check the strut mount bushings, open the hood and look at the strut towers, if the rubber inserts are dry rotted, then they are probably no good.

but have the strut rods checked first. i cant believe the dealer didnt spot the issue.

PM user "blake918" and see what he thinks, describe your wobble to him. he just had the strut rods replaced.

and thanks for the compliments, its a pile of bricks!

[nc211]

I don't hear any groaning from the steering, I just think all the bushings in the car are shot, all of them. 10 years is about the max life span for rubber. Here's something I'm trying to justify, and need your advice. I bought this car last May with 85k miles, paid $14,200 from Lexus dealer. Had the 90k service done as condition of purchase. Here's my delima, the fact is, the bushings are shot. The car creaks when going over bumps, it's got wobbles, rear carriers are shot. I've already replaced the motor mounts, tranny mount, lower ball joint and that made a huge difference in smoothness and quiet ride. In your honest opinion, is this car worth the $2,500 it's going to take to replace the control arms, strut mounts and steering mount? Or am I going to do this, then 5 months later have another wack to the credit card. Imho, $17,000 for a car that will go another 100k miles is a good deal, no matter what badge it wears, but not if it's going to nickle and dime me to death. I know the car was taken good care of by the dealer, it's in great shape. But I guess I ask you this Obi One, your experience on this forum, are the control arm's the biggest improvement a guy like me can do, and will it last? I'm ready to either sign off on accepting the creaks, wobbles and just drive it for a few years then sell it, or dump the money in, fix it all up, and enjoy a true lexus ride, but only if it's worth it.

Thanks Army, I'll contact blake918 and see if he'll take a read of this thread.

[VGR]

A large number of Toyota / Lexus owners report little or no deterioration in the ride for 200,000+ miles.

These are typically middle aged to older owners that don't drive agressively and hurriedly.

The younger owners drive fast over bumpy roads and corner hard both of which takes a big toll on the front suspension and steering linkage. These owners watch Hollywood movies and TV ads of people driving wildly and they assume production cars are "built to take that kind of punishment". Not true and its a lesson they learn the hard way.

Once a suspension and steering linkage has been stressed and worn by abusive driving it costs a fortune to repair the damage.

[nc211]

VGR, I agree completely with you. But that's the thing I don't get, the previous owner was a commercial real estate lending outfit and the president owned the car. I know him, he's an older man who drove like it. He used it when he had to hit the road for a property inspection, so the miles were all highway. I've had it for 9k miles, and I drive it like a boat, not a jetski. That is the whole reason why I got rid of my 01 Maxima SE for it, I don't drive like a speed freak and was tired of the ride a speed freak type car gave. The dealer told me the back carrier bushings were shot, but he also said my motor mounts were fine, which they were not. I think just the age of the car is wearing out the softness of the rubber mounts. The motor mounts looked like pancakes and sent a lot of engine noise into the cabin. I think I'll start with the rear carrier's and new strut rods all around. I'd rather just bite the bullet now in one large lump, then have to deal with this every month.

Any suggestions on the drive shaft causing a wobble? Is this common? or should I be looking at the differential mounting instead? I've got new bushings for the differential mount, just not installed.

[ArmyofOne]

VGR, I agree completely with you.  But that's the thing I don't get, the previous owner was a commercial real estate lending outfit and the president owned the car. I know him, he's an older man who drove like it. He used it when he had to hit the road for a property inspection, so the miles were all highway. I've had it for 9k miles, and I drive it like a boat, not a jetski. That is the whole reason why I got rid of my 01 Maxima SE for it, I don't drive like a speed freak and was tired of the ride a speed freak type car gave. The dealer told me the back carrier bushings were shot, but he also said my motor mounts were fine, which they were not. I think just the age of the car is wearing out the softness of the rubber mounts. The motor mounts looked like pancakes and sent a lot of engine noise into the cabin. I think I'll start with the rear carrier's and new strut rods all around. I'd rather just bite the bullet now in one large lump, then have to deal with this every month.

Any suggestions on the drive shaft causing a wobble? Is this common? or should I be looking at the differential mounting instead? I've got new bushings for the differential mount, just not installed.

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i say fix it. if every other aspect of the car has been maintained, you can go another 200K without worry, as many LS owners do. Blake has 250K (or thereabouts) and just replaced the strut rods for the first time.

[jadecuir]

If you just had some work done on the car, look for loose bolts/nuts. One of my biggest reasons for doing my own work is to avoid shop f@#*-ups. What happens is the lunch whistle blows, or the supervisor calls, or nature calls while the guy is buttoning up your car. When he comes back, he omits some key step in the procedure, like tightening the lug-nuts. Most shops have poor quality control procedures, and no inspectors. I don't care how good they're supposed to be; s#*t happens. If a wheel falls off at 80+ mph, there will be little left to prove it was their mistake.

Jack it up and look it over good.

If everything is tight, great! If you have a floor jack, place it under the lower arm/kingpin area, and jack it up 'til the wheel (front) is off the ground. This compresses the spring just like when on the road. Grab the upper A-arm and push and pull in and out. If the bushings are shot , you'll know it now.

[blake918]

NC, does your car make any noises, sounds, etc. when you hit a bump, or you are crusing down the hwy? How are your tires wearing? I'm guessing you found my strut rod fiasco post if you knew about Army's house?

Forgive me for the cliche, but LS400s must be seen as investments. You will probably spend a substancial sum$$ tracking down and fixing the suspension problem, but you are going to have a helluva sweet riding car that you will be able to pass on to someone 25 years from now. My '95 will have close to 250k(I'm at 248.6k now, but I've got a big road trip this weekend.) miles on it by Tuesday, and I'd give it an A+ (in its current condition) rating if the head and legroom departments were a little more spacious. They are just excellent cars. With only 94k miles, you've got a long road ahead of you. B)

[nc211]

Army, I agree with you completely, I just can't justify NOT fixing something so sweet as this car, there are no better deals on the road. So what if my $14k car turns into $17k, it's a Lexus right and like Blake says, it's got a long life ahead. I have ordered new strut rods and just picked up carrier bushings from the dealer. I've got one hell of a wicked vibration under acceleration from the tranny area. The tranny mount is new. The dealership recommended last time the carrier bushings be replaced. I think he's right. The car wobbles / shakes and hops like crazy under acceleration. Take your foot off the gas, pop it in neutral, and it goes away. I think it's a combo of the carrier bushings and strut rods letting the wheels wiggle around. The car makes a "clunk" noise in the front when hitting bumps. It used to be at slower speeds and major bumps or dips in the road where the suspension would travel quite a bit, but now it's becoming more and more noticable. I'm hoping it's those front strut rods like Blake had issues with. I tried to figure out if I need rear ones too, but the site I order from only lists one, not rear left and rear right. Are the rear ones prone to wear out fast also? Basically, I'm trying to isolate those control arms, I'm circling them with new parts. Do you guys know how long before those typically need to be replaced due to shot bushings?

Jade: I agree with you too. However, if that guy didn't do a good job, I'll call his loan due! Hahahaha, one of the perks of being a commercial / business lender. He knows I'm not one to cheap shot, especailly the low fee I charged him for his start up loan.

Blake: I did find your thread. Wish I had a hurricane in my right, and beads in my left today down on burbon street. My front tires were wearing out on the outsides. Just had them rotated and you can really tell the difference.

Guys, please let me know about the rear strut rods when you can. I'm taking my girlfriend down to Tybee Beach, GA this upcoming weekend to ask her to marry me, and I really want the car to cruise smoothly by this Friday. If you say I need them, I'll get them. I'm planning on putting it in the shop on Wednesday, testing it out that night, and if need be, put back in on Thursday. I've resigned myself to the $2 grand investement to get her back up to snuff. I just want to enjoy this beauty for what it's really worth! A smoooth, sweet machine.

PS: Ordered two new weatherstips for the front doors as well, got wind noise and no cushion when closing the doors.

You guys rock! Thanks amigos!!

[nc211]

PS: One more thing.....Where do the carrier bushing go in the rear? Now that's I bought them, where do I put them? Hahahaha. Guess I should have figured that out before hand.....Did you guys know the dealership sells just the bushings for the carrier now, not the whole assembly? They sold me something called "Adus 505" for 90-99 ls 400's. Got some number on them of 48000 and 50505. They're rubber too, not plastic. Of course I paid stealership price of $75 for them, but I'm on a time crunch and couldn't find them via internet.

Got any pictures or diagrams where these go? Do they replace the bushings in the rear strut rod? So many different names for the same parts it seems like. Dealer calls strut rods by the name of caster arms, but they're the exact same thing. Go figure?

Thanks!

[ArmyofOne]

PS: One more thing.....Where do the carrier bushing go in the rear? Now that's I bought them, where do I put them? Hahahaha. Guess I should have figured that out before hand.....Did you guys know the dealership sells just the bushings for the carrier now, not the whole assembly? They sold me something called "Adus 505" for 90-99 ls 400's. Got some number on them of 48000 and 50505. They're rubber too, not plastic. Of course I paid stealership price of $75 for them, but I'm on a time crunch and couldn't find them via internet.

Got any pictures or diagrams where these go? Do they replace the bushings in the rear strut rod? So many different names for the same parts it seems like. Dealer calls strut rods by the name of caster arms, but they're the exact same thing. Go figure?

Thanks!

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try here:

www.discounttoyotaparts.com

B)

[nc211]

I think I might have found the wobble hobble problem. I purchased two new rear differential bushings a few weeks ago after reading a tbs about smoother acceleration from 40-60. Yesterday I got under the car and found where they go "haven't put them on yet". After looking at the old ones, it became obvious that the rubber on one has a crack in it. I've attached a photo I took of it. I think this differential bushing might be the problem. I've got that lurching from d to r when cold, and it just seems loose back there. So I think I'm getting warmer. Take a look. I know the increadible improvements the motor and tranny mounts made. I'm starting to think maybe the previous owner's 16 year old son might have had some fun with the car when daddy was away. The engine and tranny mounts made a huge difference when replaced. I'm betting this will too. I'd almost put money on the fact that Jr. had a lead foot with a V8 once or twice and tore some bushings in the process. You know what they say...when the cat's away, the mice will play. I can't blame him, I did the same thing back in my day with my dad's 86' acura legend.

Army, I can't seem find a chart for those carrier bushing placements anywhere. Got any other ideas? I might just call the dealership and ask them what they replace. I'll tell them I've got my own shop at home.

[nc211]

Forgot one thing with that photo. I took that with it the car in park and the e-brake engaged "driveway on a hill". The brake is holding the car in place, not the transmission. If I take the brake off and look at that bushing, it sags to the bottom, quite badly. I would have to say under normal acceleration loads, that thing probably moves all over the place.

[ArmyofOne]

Forgot one thing with that photo. I took that with it the car in park and the e-brake engaged "driveway on a hill". The brake is holding the car in place, not the transmission. If I take the brake off and look at that bushing, it sags to the bottom, quite badly. I would have to say under normal acceleration loads, that thing probably moves all over the place.

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that woudl be the wobble. good to hear you found it. yes, call yoru dealewr and ask them for the part #. then input it on that wevsite (dont tell the dealer this) and they will coume up... if they carry them, should only be $10 a piece or so.

[nc211]

Army, got one more question for ya' if you don't mind. I noticed last night on my way to dinner that when I apply the brakes, the gear shifter moves, quite a bit. It moves down and towards the lower gear setting, but get's stopped by the gate pattern. Do you think this would be attributed to a shifting differential housing as well? It doesn't move when pushing the gas, just when applying the brakes.

In addition, does anyone have a diagram of instructions for installing the new front strut rods? I notice they have a gear mesh outer ring on the bushings, do the mechanics need to know not to tighten them down with the car still in the air with the rest of the suspension fully extented? I read on Andrew Valmos website about installing his bushings not to tighten them with the suspension at max extension, otherwise it will rip the rubber to pieces.

Thanks!!!

[ArmyofOne]

Army, got one more question for ya' if you don't mind. I noticed last night on my way to dinner that when I apply the brakes, the gear shifter moves, quite a bit. It moves down and towards the lower gear setting, but get's stopped by the gate pattern. Do you think this would be attributed to a shifting differential housing as well? It doesn't move when pushing the gas, just when applying the brakes.

In addition, does anyone have a diagram of instructions for installing the new front strut rods? I notice they have a gear mesh outer ring on the bushings, do the mechanics need to know not to tighten them down with the car still in the air with the rest of the suspension fully extented? I read on Andrew Valmos website about installing his bushings not to tighten them with the suspension at max extension, otherwise it will rip the rubber to pieces.

Thanks!!!

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yes, that can cause it. but my shifter moves around a bit too. not alot,but if you put your hand on it you will feel it. a little movement is normal. whast happeneing is the trans turning the driveshaft is toorquing the whole assembly. physics states that if the tranny turns one way, everything connected to it from the rear of the trans back is going to want to turn the same way.

[nc211]

Thanks Army! Got one more question for ya' if you don't mind. The dealer swore the diff. bushings were fine. Said he would change them if I wanted, but they didn't need it. Of course that would have been $500 in labor, so I told him no. The rear carrier's fixed the vibration to a degree. The front strut rods smoothed out the bumps a bit. But I've still got the squek and bad vibration on smooth black top surfaces. The stabalizer bushings are new, ball joints "lower" are new, and you know the rest. All tires are dealer balanced as well as alignment. The car is all over the road in a cross wind, and you can push down on the front and hear is squek like crazy. It's coming from the point where the shocks connect to the control arms. Question: is it time at 10 years and 95k miles for new shocks on the black beauty? I think the ones on there are stock originals. Wouldn't that cause the car to vibrate like a wheel was out of balance on smooth surfaces, but not on concrete surfaces, and do it more at higher speeds? I can't really tell if the "boat" ride is Lexus designed, or the car is riding on the springs now. The front comes up when putting on the gas, and dives when braking. What do you think?

I would LOVE to know what your mechanic did to get those diff. bushings out for only $50. All my guys say it's super labor intensive due to dropping out the drive shaft and differential all together to get them to come out.

Thanks Amigo...

PS, my girl said yes this past weekend, we're gettin' married, so I gotta get this fixed before my mad money turns into floral patterns. Hahahaha.

[ArmyofOne]

Thanks Army! Got one more question for ya' if you don't mind. The dealer swore the diff. bushings were fine. Said he would change them if I wanted, but they didn't need it. Of course that would have been $500 in labor, so I told him no. The rear carrier's fixed the vibration to a degree. The front strut rods smoothed out the bumps a bit. But I've still got the squek and bad vibration on smooth black top surfaces. The stabalizer bushings are new, ball joints "lower" are new, and you know the rest. All tires are dealer balanced as well as alignment. The car is all over the road in a cross wind, and you can push down on the front and hear is squek like crazy. It's coming from the point where the shocks connect to the control arms. Question: is it time at 10 years and 95k miles for new shocks on the black beauty? I think the ones on there are stock originals. Wouldn't that cause the car to vibrate like a wheel was out of balance on smooth surfaces, but not on concrete surfaces, and do it more at higher speeds? I can't really tell if the "boat" ride is Lexus designed, or the car is riding on the springs now. The front comes up when putting on the gas, and dives when braking. What do you think?

I would LOVE to know what your mechanic did to get those diff. bushings out for only $50. All my guys say it's super labor intensive due to dropping out the drive shaft and differential all together to get them to come out.

Thanks Amigo...

PS, my girl said yes this past weekend, we're gettin' married, so I gotta get this fixed before my mad money turns into floral patterns. Hahahaha.

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Definately struts. i hope you dont have air suspension.

do this, go outside and push the front of the car down hard and hold it (careful not to dent or scratch). then let it back up. how many times does it bounce up and down? if more than 2-3 i would say you are due for struts.

My car is smaller than your, but believe it or not, it still weighs 4,012 lbs according to its door sticker. On the ES, especially the first gen (mine), the car is simply too heavy for the shock, so you get alot fo bottoming out. i probably bottom out once a month on freeway dips, but i dont have a bit of problem with spongynes fo the shocks, and now after my $1300+ bill from JPI i have no more clunking (not saying yours will be that much, i had ALOT wrong with mine) either. it just bottoms out. i have driven one other ES250 and it has the same issue. there is nothing abnormal about it.

as for your squeaks, this reinforces my opinion that the shocks are shot.

replace with OEM if you do not hae air suspension. get them from the site i mentioned above.

Seems like in the ES, the suspension was the week point, or at least in my gen. the struts just cant support the weight of the car.

I hope (for your checkbooks sake) you have regular struts and not the air suspension. if you have the air suspension, it could cost you up to $600-$800 per strut. easily looking at $2,000 by the time its all said and done.

if you have this option, best bet woudl be to replace with regular OEM shocks.

if you dont, try my test and see how the shocks are.

[nc211]

Thanks Army, yeah I made sure to avoid the air suspension option. I had a neighbor years ago that had the air suspension on his Infiniti Q45, it put him in the poor house. I did the test last night, it doesn't really bounce up and down that much, but it's pretty soft, too soft if you ask me. The whole car leans too much when making simple turns and she fells like the SS Loveboat. Thankfully the shocks are about $50 a piece, which suprised me since everything else is so expensive. I'm wondering though if the dealer didn't mess something up last week when putting on the strut rods, because this has all happened since then. Yeah is squeeked a bit before, but now it's aweful. Oh well, I keep telling my self that it's a Lexus for the price of a Kia. FYI: I drove 850 miles last weekend, city & highway, on 32.5 gallons of gas. That's an average of 26 mpg. Now on a V8 engine! I love these cars. That's better than my old 2001 Maxima, or my 99' Subaru Outback.

[ArmyofOne]

Thanks Army, yeah I made sure to avoid the air suspension option. I had a neighbor years ago that had the air suspension on his Infiniti Q45, it put him in the poor house. I did the test last night, it doesn't really bounce up and down that much, but it's pretty soft, too soft if you ask me. The whole car leans too much when making simple turns and she fells like the SS Loveboat. Thankfully the shocks are about $50 a piece, which suprised me since everything else is so expensive. I'm wondering though if the dealer didn't mess something up last week when putting on the strut rods, because this has all happened since then. Yeah is squeeked a bit before, but now it's aweful. Oh well, I keep telling my self that it's a Lexus for the price of a Kia. FYI: I drove 850 miles last weekend, city & highway, on 32.5 gallons of gas. That's an average of 26 mpg. Now on a V8 engine! I love these cars. That's better than my old 2001 Maxima, or my 99' Subaru Outback.

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true, and a lexus's tranny wont fall out on the test drive (long story!) LOL.

I wish i coudl get 26 MPG. i get about 13.5 city.

Sponginess is no good either. I would go ahead and replace them. Struts are not very labor intensive, but you may need an alignment afterwards.

if you dont want to do it yourself, a garage with a lift and basic toosl can do it in 3-4 hrs.