Dealership Calls It "lurching"

[streetbird]

In August I went to park my car (2002 ES300) in my driveway when all of a sudden it picked up speed crashing through my brand new fence and side porch. It must be noted that I had my foot on the brake, the car was stopped and all of a sudden it took off on me. My foot never moved off the brake the whole time; the car came to a stop when it hit the porch. The day before I was driving with my mom and as I started to slow the car down b/c I was coming to a stop sign and the car all of a sudden picked up speed, but thankfully at that time I had time to press the brakes down harder and stop the car. When I park my car in the driveway it is only a couple of inches from the gate and from the gate it is about 2-3 feet to the porch so there was no way to avoid this accident.

When Lexus inspected the car they found nothing wrong with the DBW (electronic throttle control). I find this to be a coverup of some sorts b/c I've been driving for years and never had this happen to me before. I know first hand that is is not a driver error it is a manufactor's defect. I need to know if anyone else has had the same problem. I know it went into investigations and they are not recalling the cars b/c there was not ENOUGH evidence that this really happens. Since I've been bringing this issue to light I recently found out that the same thing happened to my husband's friend's wife last year. Her car took off on her and went through her garage.

Other problems with my 2002 Luxury vehicle is that the wood paneling on the console began to peel off, my steering wheel wood changed to a dull purple and about 2 weeks before the accident my back window on the drivers side stopped working. Is this the standard for Lexus???? The dealership and manufacturer are not taking any responsiblity so I want to hear from other owners if they have had the same problem so maybe it can be brought back into investigations. This dangerous problem is ovbiously not going away.

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.

[SW03ES]

Yes, something causes the vehicle to surge forward when resting at a stop or slowing down. I'm not sure what it is but every once and a while I can feel it start to load onto the brakes. Thats certainly never happened to me though. The NHTSA did an investigation of the Toyota Camry, the ES300/330, the RX300/330, the Highlander, and the Lexus LS430 because of reports of cars suddently accelerating causing accidents. The NHTSA found that these reports were due to driver error and were not the fault of the car company. Really all you can do is file a report with the NHTSA.

As for the wood, does the car sit outside all the time? Do you use any kind of lotions on your hands or use anything like armor all on the actual wood? I've seen wood wheels fade on cars that sit outside in the sun all the time. The peeling is a new one for me though. Can you post some pictures of that for us?

The wood used on the ES is natural and like any peice of wood furnature it needs to be protected so that it won't fade when exposed to the elements. Use of wood polishes like pledge or even car wax are advised. Lexus SHOULD cover these things under warranty though. That steering wheel is almost $2000 and that console is around that too.

[streetbird]

When the wood on the steering wheel faded when I only had the car for 2-3 months and it was garaged. The wood on the console began peeling about 2 months ago (I've had the car for a little over 2 years) and I don't even touch that part of the wood. It is where the clock is in the middle of the console. I didn't use anything that would make it peel off.

What about the back window. It all of a sudden stopped working. THis is my 5th car. All my other cars were built in the early 80's to late 90's and I never had these problems before. The reason I bought a Lexus was b/c I wanted a reliable car that would last me a long time. Big Mistake!!! I will never put kids in this car since the surging happened 2x already. Now, what if it happens again, will Lexus take responsiblity???? I just picked up my car today from the body shop (with over $8000 worth of damage) about 2 hours ago. They did a great job repairing it but I was very uneasy driving it. Always thinking is it going to lurch fwd on me a an intersection or near pedestrians. No one from Lexus seems to care about their existing customers just potential ones.

[streetbird]

Oh I forgot, I never took pictures of the wood and like I said I just got the car back today and they fixed the console however the steering wheel was not changed out. As soon as I can, I will take pictures and put them on the website. I will also post the pictures of the damage.

[SW03ES]

The wood was peeling around the clock area or off to the sides around the guages or below the pass. airbag? I ask because if you have wood around the clock that wood is aftermarket, the ES doesn't come with wood there.

The rear window could be any number of things, that should be covered under warranty too.

My car has 30some,000 miles now and I haven't had any of those problems, they've fixed a couple rattles and swapped out the brakes because of grinding but thats it. They replaced the drive belts yesterday because it was idling kind of loud, again under warranty.

Unfortunately Lexus is really in a position where they don't have to do anything because the NHTSA deemed there was nothing wrong with the car causing the unintended acceleration. My guess is this is another problem having to do with the terrible DBW system on these cars. Only thing I can suggest you do is file a complaint with the NHTSA.

You also might want to try contacting Lexus directly as opposed to communicating with them through the dealer.

[streetbird]

It's the dealership who installed the wood. I paid an extra $700 to have the whole console overed with the wood paneling. Yes, they did fix the wood and window b/c it was under warranty but this should not be happening!!! That's the point I'm trying to get across.

When this whole thing happened with the DBW I went through all the proper steps. I put in a claim with customer service 800-25-LEXUS. After I spoke with them they told me they would be in touch with me. I called back several time with no call back from them. I also asked for the person who took the info in the first place and he would not take my calls. The inspector went down to the body shop about 1 1/2 ago and no one called to tell me. My car was sitting in the body shop, ready to go for 2-3 weeks and no one from Lexus, the manufacturer or the body shop contacted me. The only professional and helpful person was the manager of the body shop who took care of my rental car payment. Other than that, Lexus was no help to me at all.

My only other option right now is to go public with Fox 5 problems solvers or some sort of media attention so they will take another look at these cars b/c there obviously is a problem. I will also file with the National Highway Safety office.

[SW03ES]

Those stick on wood appliques they install on areas of the car that don't have wood are very prone to peeling, thats not really Lexus' fault. They sold the kit and cover it under their warranty but they don't make the kits nor do they probably install them, its more likely another company they had come in and install the kit.

As for getting their attention about the problem, good luck and keep us posted!

[Myth]

Hi,

I was very surprised when I read your article.

The same thing may have happened to my wife in July.

We have a 2002 ES300.

She had backed it out of our townhome, and waited while the garage closed.

At that point, she shifted from R to D in order to begin moving forward. As she did this, she indicated that the car 'lurched' forward.

End result was that it zoomed forward before she could fully turn, causing our garage to be damaged (and a busted gas line that caused an evacuation).

Obviously, the insurance company indicated it was our fault 100%. I talked to my wife about it in detail, and she is absolutely adamant that she did not press the gas pedal... she insisted the car lurched forward on its own out of control.

I chalked it up to her forgetting what happened in the heat of the moment.

After reading your post, I am now reconsidering...

[streetbird]

Myth,

I think if we can get more people together on this we can get the National Highway Safety board to reopen this case about the electronic throttle control malfunctioning in the 2002 Lexus ES300s. They said they will keep an eye on this and if they get more complaints they will look into this again. If you want, send me a PM and give me your email address so we can start the ball rolling on this. Like I said in my previous message, my husband's friend's wife had the same thing happen to her so right there we have found 3 people in the matter of a couple of weeks. I'm sure this has happened to alot more people and we have to make Lexus take responsibility for their products.

[RobsES330]

howdy, does anyone know if this lurching happens in the 2005 ES330? because i'm getting one in a week.

[SW03ES]

No idea. Its definately an extremely extremely isolated occurance though. I've felt it but its never even come close to taking control of the car away from me.

[Poppi]

Have any of you heard of the 2003 ES300 having the 'lurching' problem?

I am concerned as my wife's car is a 2003 year model.

Thanks,

Poppi

[jragosta]

Myth,

I think if we can get more people together on this we can get the National Highway Safety board to reopen this case about the electronic throttle control malfunctioning in the 2002 Lexus ES300s. They said they will keep an eye on this and if they get more complaints they will look into this again. If you want, send me a PM and give me your email address so we can start the ball rolling on this. Like I said in my previous message, my husband's friend's wife had the same thing happen to her so right there we have found 3 people in the matter of a couple of weeks. I'm sure this has happened to alot more people and we have to make Lexus take responsibility for their products.

Before you get worked up, do a little research - starting on nhtsa's site.

There are reports of almost every car in the world accelerating on its own. The first (if I remember correctly) was a big stink about one particular Audi model back in the 70's or 80s. Since then, there are sporadic reports about nearly every vehicle.

However, if you look, you'll see that these reports are rare for each type of car. You almost never see more than a couple reports per model. That is why NHTSA said that it's probably due to operator error rather than a design flaw. As far as I know, no one has EVER been able to duplicate this problem in front of an investigator or even a dealer.

The ES transmission problem which has been discussed extensively here is quite different. It is easy to duplicate and a very large number of ES owners have experienced it.

There's no way that NHTSA is going to be able to do anything about your 'surging car' problem - since no one can reproduce it and since it's not related to any one vehicle.

[streetbird]

jragosta,

I have done my research on the NHTSA website along with filing a complaint. I also know exactly what happened to me when my car accelerated when my foot was pressed on the brake. I never questioned if I pressed on the accelerator by accident b/c I know my foot was on the brake. I was just about to put the car into park when it took off. If this was an isolated incident then why does the dealership have a name for it, why are there other people coming fwd with the same problem and why is the "electronic throttle control" being mentioned all over the internet?

Lexus/Toyota must step up to the plate and take responsibility for their cars and customers. If they keep telling their customers that it is their fault and not a problem with the car, most people will believe them. That is why I'm writing to find out how many people this has happened to and to hear their stories so the drivers stopped being blamed for something that happened that was out of their control.

[jragosta]

jragosta,

I have done my research on the NHTSA website along with filing a complaint. I also know exactly what happened to me when my car accelerated when my foot was pressed on the brake. I never questioned if I pressed on the accelerator by accident b/c I know my foot was on the brake. I was just about to put the car into park when it took off. If this was an isolated incident then why does the dealership have a name for it, why are there other people coming fwd with the same problem and why is the "electronic throttle control" being mentioned all over the internet?

Lexus/Toyota must step up to the plate and take responsibility for their cars and customers. If they keep telling their customers that it is their fault and not a problem with the car, most people will believe them. That is why I'm writing to find out how many people this has happened to and to hear their stories so the drivers stopped being blamed for something that happened that was out of their control.

I'm not saying that some magical thing never happened.

BUT, no one has EVER duplicated this problem at a repair shop.

AND, the problem has occurred on virtually every type of car ever made.

AND, the problem is more common with new cars - as people are getting used to a new car.

Those things make is very hard to jump to the conclusion that Lexus is at fault here.

[SW03ES]

Listen to what jragosta has to say, he's a level headed and logical person.

The NHTSA is a private organization that is dedicated to maintaining a level of safety in the automotive industry. Before the NHTSA we didn't have any kind of requirements as to what kind of safety features and performance cars needed to have. If the NHTSA opened an investigation and then cleared Lexus of any wrongdoing then you can bet they honestly could find no evidence to support a wrongdoing on the part of Toyota. You say that Lexus needs to step up and take responsibility for their cars, but if they paid out for every type of problem or accident that even may have to do with the construction of the car they would be out of business.

I understand your motivation, but the NHTSA has already done an investigation of this matter that probed much deeper than you'll be capable to do and came out finding no fault on Lexus' part.

I've felt the "lurching" and as I said earlier it may have something to do with the DBW, it may not. It may have something to do with the A/C compressor cycling or something like that, most cars will display an RPM bump when that happens, who knows. Maybe the dealership has a name for it because its a normal condition of automatic transmissioned vehicles. Automatic transmission vehicles WILL move on their own when engaged in gear, this is called "Creeping". All vehicles do not creep at the same speed, and all vehicles do not creep at one specific speed.

Like I said before, I've felt this but it has never once even begun to overpower my control on the vehicle via my foot on the brake.

Now I'm not discounting what you're saying but you've got to realize what the response to this is going to be. There are so many unanswerable and unprovable things that may have happened. You could have relaxed your foot on the brake just at the wrong moment, who knows.

[hilchan]

It must be noted that I had my foot on the brake, the car was stopped and all of a sudden it took off on me. My foot never moved off the brake the whole time; the car came to a stop when it hit the porch. The day before I was driving with my mom and as I started to slow the car down b/c I was coming to a stop sign and the car all of a sudden picked up speed, but thankfully at that time I had time to press the brakes down harder and stop the car.

If Lexus wants proof, how about the next time this happens you slam the transmission to neutral and let it rev high enough that it registers on your computer. (Unless we have a rev limiter, your engine could get damage from over reving.) I know it's easier said than done, specially in the heat of the moment but just a thought.

This is the exact problem that almost killed my sister and brother in law down a twisty road in Napa on their brand new Dodge Durango couple of years ago, which they've gotten rid of since and got an Acura.

Your post is now making me more cautious driving specially in front of pedestrian on my wife's ES330. I'll keep everyone posted on the first sign, but I had mine for 9k miles and have not experienced this issue. But I do have plenty of acceleration delay thought.

[SW03ES]

If Lexus wants proof, how about the next time this happens you slam the transmission to neutral and let it rev high enough that it registers on your computer. (Unless we have a rev limiter, your engine could get damage from over reving.) I know it's easier said than done, specially in the heat of the moment but just a thought.

Couple problems with this.

1. The engine wouldn't rev any higher during such a lurch than it normally would during acceleration. So any kind of readout would be meaningless.

2. And most importantly no computer regesters such information on this car.

[streetbird]

Here are the pictures of my car and the damage. I also included a picture of my puppy who sits on the porch and watches to see what goes on in the neighborhood. This is the reason I will NEVER EVER park my malfunctioning car in the driveway again.

[streetbird]

2nd picture of the damage

[streetbird]

And here is why I will never park in the driveway again.

My baby........who thank goodness was inside when the car "lurched" foward.

[jragosta]

Here are the pictures of my car and the damage. I also included a picture of my puppy who sits on the porch and watches to see what goes on in the neighborhood. This is the reason I will NEVER EVER park my malfunctioning car in the driveway again.

What's your point?

No one ever said your car wasn't damaged. We're just having trouble figuring out why you think it's Lexus' fault.

[streetbird]

Well, if you read all the previous posts you will see my point:

I also know exactly what happened to me when my car accelerated when my foot was pressed on the brake. I never questioned if I pressed on the accelerator by accident b/c I know my foot was on the brake. I was just about to put the car into park when it took off.

[SW03ES]

I don't doubt that, the thing is though that automatic transmissioned vehicles will move forward or backward when in gear regardless of whether or not your foot is on the accelerator. According to the Maryland Drivers Handbook the proper procedure for parking a vehicle is to:

1. Stop

2. Set the parking brake with foot still on the service brake

3. Shift to park

This is how you're "supposed" to park the car (and also how I always park, BTW), and if you had parked that way then this never would have happened. Again, I'm not saying this was your fault because I cannot possibly make such a judgement, but you have to be prepared for all avenues of defense. I don't see how its possible to prove any fault on the part of the vehicle manufacturer. Take a gun for instance. A gun is designed to do one thing, to fire. If you brush the trigger and the gun fires then its not the gun company's fault for designing a hair trigger, its yours because you shot the gun. A car is designed to do one thing, move.

To me the strongest argument that it was not the vehicles fault is how high the car would have to rev in order to push past the brakes when they are applied fully. I will do a little test later today when I back out on my street, I'll sit with the brakes applied and I will apply throttle. My guess is it would take more throttle to move the car with the brakes applied than I'm comfortable of giving the car.

[streetbird]

Okay, I don't think I'm explaining this correctly.

I pulled into my driveway with my foot pressing on the brake to slow down. I brought the car to a complete stop and just when I was about to put it into Park the car sped up very quickly and with such power (with my foot still on the brake) that it went straight through my gate and then hit the porch. The car did not do what it was designed to do and that is stay at a stop with the brake is pressed.