mindmachine

This make me wonder what rail dust does to a person's lungs who lives near RR tracks or a foundry, etc.

Tom

Hi Tom,,

The foundry is the worst, we are lucky here in a way because our foundry was closed years ago, but I do remember many people had respratory issues. The smoke from the foundry was a kind of reddish-rust color and it plummed out over a large area. Cars parked outside were covered with the dust if they were in the wrong spot almost anywhere in the city, depending on the pervaling wind that day. I don't know for sure, but I imagine rail dust is not quite as bad because it isn't released up high in the air like the foundry smoke stacks and therefore will not drift so far from the rails.

I worked for the company and one reason they closed the foundry was because of the cost to contain the particulates, the EPA was cracking down and new scrubbers were going to be needed. We made large internal combustion engines, up to 20,000 BHP and Jet Gas turbine driven compressors. We had more than one foundry and we closed the one in Ohio and keep the one in PA open. Eventually we even closed the one in PA, but it stayed open at least another 30 or so years.

I worked in the manufacturing engineering department where we continued here in my town to machine the castings and assemble the finished product and still do. Cast iron dust is still a problem to contain in machining and finishing operations, but the EPA has mandated many restricitions on what can be exhausted to the atmosphere outside the plant. Still though if you live close to a machining or metal finishing operation and they don't properly scrub their plant exhaust you could experience the rail dust phenemon with metal particles in the air from a cast iron machinig and or finishing operation.

Dennis

Excellent information, Dennis!

I use (exclusively) a product called ReJex that was originally formulated for protecting military aircraft. It is not a wax and lasts far longer than any wax I have used over the years.

Dave

Yes that is what I use, I keep thinking Corrosion X,but Rejex it's the same company they also make Corrosion X but it's for untreated steel if I remember correctly, and I use Rejex on my car instead of any other wax product. I have been using it now for 5 years.

You are correct it is not a wax but a liquid product that creates a polomer bond to protect the paint, it looks and acts like a liquid cream wax. It creates a really smooth finish just like wax.

Dennis

I owned a Mercedes ML320 from 1999 to 2008. I found the "rail dust" on my white ML320 after a few weeks of owning it. I took it back to the dealer, and the service advisor just rubbed it off with some buffing compound. It is not from a rail road, but I think the dust is from the brake or disc wearing down when braking, depositing the dust onto the panels.

I used to wash it often when new. But towards the last 2 years, I washed it less frequently and rust started to show on the bottom of the door panels. That is when I traded it in for my 08 400h. Having seen this post, and my experience on my ML320, I'll washed it as much as possible. One question though, I do not wash it myself, I use the non-touch high pressure auto wash, or the cloth type of auto wash, and put on wax every time. Is this acceptable as compared to handwash ?

Actually you may be only partially right. Last year before I took delivery of my just delivered special order Lexus 400h I visited the dealer while they were prepping it. They were actually washing it by hand with a special solvent and I ask them why. The service technician doing the work explained that he was removing rail dust, he further explained that since the cars are shipped from the west coast by rail to Chicago they get covered with rail dust and if it isn't properly removed it will show up just like the way the person who started this thread is experiencing. He further explained that not all dealers follow this proceedure. I think he actually told me they use a diluted mild acid, not sulpheric or hydrachloric, I can't remember, anyhow he told me they then rinse with another solvent, wash with a car soap and then wax. Now this is on a brand new car shipped in from Japan and rail shipped from the port on the west coast to Chicago for trucking to Ohio.

Also if the person lives in Michigan close to a Foundry, cast iron or steel then the same thing can happen, we used to have a cast iron foundry in town , and while its not rail dust per say, it is iron particulates in the foundry exhause that then settles ou on a cars paint and does the same thing. Many people in town had their cars damaged from it. It is the combination of these conditions with acid rain in the midwest that is real hard on cars. Corrosion X is a good way to protect your car paint from this problem. I use the Corrosion x wax to do my cars now and haven't had any problems. I do my car every 6 months.

Dennis

I just saw a commercial for the 2010 RX and I see its gonna have the heads up display of the navigation on your windshield, is this gonna be an expensive option?

$1200

Prices for all options are listed on the Lexus web site.

Actually I am not missing the point but I think you are. I am a Mechanical Engineer and I understand tolerances, safety factors , testing methods and all that you mentioned!

I say again you dont need a V rated tire on the RX400h, and I again say the load rating is more much more important than the speed rating unless you plan on driving your RX400h on the autobahn at 130 MPH for long stretches of time.

Oh did you know that the OEM 17" tire that comes standard on the RX400h is a 101 S rated and if you didn't read carefully that is rated at 112 MPH. So in light of that fact I am 100% positive in knowing that the V rating on the 18" OEM's is not out of necessity.

One more point, the RX400h is electronically limited to a top speed of 112 MPH. hence the standard equipment tire rated at 101S.

How many SUV makes and models do you know of that have a top speed capability equal to the RX (112 MPH) and come with V rated tires.

Lets take the 07-08 Acura MDX for example since it uses the Michelin Latitude, a tire which comes in several different speed and load combinations. For example the Acura is fitted OEM with the 255x55x18 104H when they could have used the the same size 105V that is used on Mercedes or even the 109V XL which is used on the Porsche Cayenne. Heck even BMW does not use the V rated option they fit theirs with a 109H.

Now I know the RX 400h is a peppy SUV but it does not compare to the Porsche or BMW when it comes to being capable of being driven at high speeds and in agressive driving situations.

I guess I didn't know that mechanical Engineering would encompas all there is to know about rubber chemestry ... and how those varrying chemestires react under different loads and temperatures and durations and manufacturing techniques when mingled with other materials, or how the extra torque created by dual electric motors (as the AWD has), and extra battery weight has to be taken into account, comparred to the porsche/bmw / lighter suv's. My crazy thinking is that since a tire &/or auto manufacturer has express and implied warranties, that those kinds of responsibilities would carry more weight, than say if some shloemoe like me posts a thread that contradicts. I mean after all, if I'm wrong, buyer beware, right? Heck, even the tire companies don't know everything ... or am I the only one who remembers the SUV roll-over fatalities atributed to Firestone tires.

http://www.detnews.com/specialreports/2002...restonetire.jpg

Well let me try to explain my point, but first let me say what we have been discussing are mechanical properties, not chemical. Load rating, speed rating, tread wear, temperature rating and traction ratings are all mechanical properties. Also let me say that you dont have to be a chemist in engineering to understand mechanical capabilities of materials, in fact in collage I had to take courses such as "strength of materials" which involved the analysis of different materials which included their mechanical properties. I also had to take several chemistry courses, but no I am not a chemist. I do however understand things such as how the durometer value of rubber varies with its ability to withstand deformation and resist tearing (tensil strength) and how it will wear depending on the ammount of silica is in the rubber and how long the carbon strands are for example.

My background, well, I worked for Monsanto for a short time after I graduated from collage, but left them to work for an I C engine and Jet gas turbine manufacturer for the rest of my career. I worked in Research and Development part of my career and then in mmanufacturing engineering and quality troubleshooting. While I am not claiming to be an expert on this or any other subject as this is just a talk forum to exchange ideas, experiences and preferences.

My reference to being a mechanical engineer was mainly however directed at my understanding of how the tires are tested mechanically in a lab, tolerances and safety factors vs the statement that skyfish400h made that I should reread how the speed rating is established in the lab. Well I hate to scare anyone, but many ratings on other products are done the same way. Specifications are established, testing techniques are usually applied in a lab for example under controlled and repeatable conditions. Running the tire up to a speed for a duration of time without failure establishes a parameter for comparision. Even if you did the test on the road under actual conditions just how long would you drive an actual vehicle at 149 MPH + to determine if a trie was capable of a Z rating, until it blows out. I guess skyfish400h would do that. Sorry I feel ornery.

Finally to answer your questions 1.) The OEM standard equipment 17" tire is rated at 101 S, so that establishes the load rating that the vehicle needs and that is my point. Lexus as timid as they are when it comes to product liability (ie not allowing us to access the navigation while moving) believes that the 101 load rating and S speed rating which is 112 MPH, is sufficient. remember the 18" wheels are optional and so Lexus decided to go for a higher rated performance tire to appeal to customers who want that, not that it is necessary, otherwise the standard tire would have had a V rating too.

2.) I already ansewered your question on chemestry, we have been discussing mechanical properties, including your traction motor torque coment which just results in more tire wear do to slippage of the tire. Just like on the drag strip more wheel slipage more abraded rubber.

What I did on my 400h, well personally I agree with BillyShaft, I consider all the same aspects he mentioned in his post in much the same order, size, load rating, wear number, speed rating, temperature rating, traction rating. I purchased the Bridgestone Alenza 235x55x18 100 V. Granted it is an all season tire but what I was looking for was the wet and snow traction without the need to purchase a dedicated snow.

I do understand what you were trying to get at with your chemestry comment, today tires are more complicated than they used to be, but again the chemestry like long strand carbon filamants, added silica, dual durometer/variable chemestry tread layers ect., are only elements that vary the mechanical performance properties of the tire/rubber.

Beyond that I agree its a personal choice and there are trade offs and a little common sense is needed when selecting your tires. So far we have not discussed tread design and how higher performance tires while they grip better usually dont wear as well and dont ride as nicely. Lastly our 400h's aren't comparable to either BMW or a Porsche Cayenne in the performance and suspension capabilities. Therefore some of these tire choices are over kill and potentially wasted money on the 400h.

Well I had better stop this is getting way too long.

You do not need a V rated tire the H rating is sufficient for any RX400h driver. What is more important is the load rating.

Its not a good idea to put too much emphasis on the literal definitions for the speed ratings. They are only benchmarks for comparison. When you see 130mph, and think to yourself, "I would never drive an RX that fast, and neither should anyone else"... you are missing the point.

It's a capability, a safety factor, a margin for error, a tolerance. It's something I would rather have than not. Re-read the laboratory conditions for how they determine those speeds and all of the caveats they put around those ratings on the tirerack link you sited. And think again about the real world conditions they have to operate in.

find out :o )

Actually I am not missing the point but I think you are. I am a Mechanical Engineer and I understand tolerances, safety factors , testing methods and all that you mentioned!

I say again you dont need a V rated tire on the RX400h, and I again say the load rating is more much more important than the speed rating unless you plan on driving your RX400h on the autobahn at 130 MPH for long stretches of time.

Oh did you know that the OEM 17" tire that comes standard on the RX400h is a 101 S rated and if you didn't read carefully that is rated at 112 MPH. So in light of that fact I am 100% positive in knowing that the V rating on the 18" OEM's is not out of necessity.

One more point, the RX400h is electronically limited to a top speed of 112 MPH. hence the standard equipment tire rated at 101S.

How many SUV makes and models do you know of that have a top speed capability equal to the RX (112 MPH) and come with V rated tires.

Lets take the 07-08 Acura MDX for example since it uses the Michelin Latitude, a tire which comes in several different speed and load combinations. For example the Acura is fitted OEM with the 255x55x18 104H when they could have used the the same size 105V that is used on Mercedes or even the 109V XL which is used on the Porsche Cayenne. Heck even BMW does not use the V rated option they fit theirs with a 109H.

Now I know the RX 400h is a peppy SUV but it does not compare to the Porsche or BMW when it comes to being capable of being driven at high speeds and in agressive driving situations.

:chairshot:

Okay...I hate math. So now I know the smaller size doesn't impact warranty, which is great. Thank you!

I was also going to the 255/55-18 for a little more rim protection from curbs and little fuller wheel well. I did this on an RX 300 and it improved the look. I guess my only question for Skyfish or anyone else that really knows tires is the question about the Acura MDX 104H tire making that big a difference over a V tire. The Porche V tire is very close to the same size so that could work...Tire Size: 255/55R18/XL (MSPN: 26669). Just more money, what is another $100 when you ride on them for 40+K right (hopefully)! The Acura MDX just seems like such a similar car to the 400h than the Porche does.

You do not need a V rated tire the H rating is sufficient for any RX400h driver. What is more important is the load rating.

The speed rating V is good for a maximum speed of 149 MPH and the H is good for 130 MPH. I dont think the 130 MPH limit is an issue on the RX 400h.

The load rating is based on the ammount of air the tire holds along with construction, like the number of plies and steel belts.

I have a set of Bridgestone Alenza's that I took off of my Acura MDX just before I sold it, they are rated 109 H XL, they are extra load the same tire without the XL in that size is going to be 104 or 105 load rating. I sold my MDX when I bought the RX 400h and yet even though I had these tires with only around 400 miles on them I bought the correct size Bridgestone Alenza 235x55x18 for the RX 400h.

If you are interisted in the 255x55x18 Bridgestone Alenzas I still have them , contact me. I currently have them on a set of Acura MDX wheels but they could be unmounted. I am planning on posting the wheel and tire set on ebay this spring.

Look on the tire rack as it explains load and speed ratings in more detail.

Hear is a link to that info: http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/tec...?techid=35&

In other posts over the last year or so some have commented on having rubbing problems with the 255x55x18 in various tire makes. Look at the clearence in the rear wheel opening between your tire and the spring mounting plate. Also the rear fender liner. Its very close and depending on the individual fit at the factory some have experienced rubbing under certain driving conditions.

Personally I replaced the factory tires with Brigestone Alenza's 235x55x18 and am really satisfied with them. They are 100 V rated which is slightly better/ heavier load rating then the OEM Goodyears or Michelins. They feel like more tire than the OEM and performance wise according to customers that have purchased them from the tire rack, the perform much better in most areas then the OEM Goodyears and even the Michelins.

I myself, dont believe in oversizing on the diameter, and on a car like the RX 400h with close clearences I am not even big on increasing the section/tread width.

Anyhow good luck with whatever you pick.

Okay, great. Thanks for the quick response.

Here is my concern: If I go with the 255/50-18 I will gain more miles since the tires are smaller, spin at higher REVS than the OEM and then I will be out of warranty sooner.

The 255/55-18 for the ACURA has a higher load rating on the Latitude HP (104) than the Lexus OEM at 99. There are lots of Acura's here in AZ with those tires and it weighs 4451 lbs. compared to the RX 400h at 4190 lbs., so it seemed to make sense. The Latitude HP for the Mercedes is a 105V tire but is also 10.6 wide instead of 10.4 and also has a OD of 29.2 instead of 29.1. There is a Latitude HP for the Porche that is 109V and 29 OD and 10.43 wide. Soooo many choices!!!

I did see that RXRey has had the TOYO Proxes for over 14 months with no problem but felt the Michelin might be the best quality. What is another $200 when you spend over $45K on the vehicle, especially on something that will last for about 3 years.

Your thoughts?

Do the math, the 255/50/18's are only .51% undersize. thats only 102 miles extra in 20000 miles or 255 miles extra on 50,000 miles, not really a big difference in my opinion. Many dealers will give you a few miles over the max anyway.

:chairshot:

In other words, your proof that premium fuel gets better mileage is that other people on this forum have said it is so.

I have spent considerable time researching this topic. It is clearly a myth. There is no more energy in premium fuel than in regular fuel. You will not get better mileage by using premium fuel. There are other advantages but fuel economy isn't one of them.

Here are a few articles.

http://www.mainarticles.com/Article/Is-Hig...-per-Year-/7267

http://www.torquecars.com/articles/fuel-octane-ratings.php

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/3...on_premium.html

I can give you about 200 more articles if you would like.

You are correct that we can all choose which fuel we use. There is no sense though in posting false information like you have been doing about premium fuel and gas mileage.

I would happy to review some of your resources that prove the opposite.

As an aside, our own personal experiences mean almost nothing since there are too many variables, but I averaged over 30 mpg all last summer on regular gasoline (down to about 26 mpg this winter in Wisconsin). There was no difference in premium fuel the 2 times I tested it for myself. Again this means nothing compared to scientific evidence.

You are very wrong in your statement about fuel economy. I do however agree that premium does not have any more energy per gallon, but it is burnt more effeciently if the engine is designed for premium fuel. The Lexus engine is designed for premium and in the 2008 manual at least it even calls for premium. The problem in using regular is the anti knock system automatically adjust the timing to compensate for lower octane fuel and this in turn requires the enging to operat at less than optium design conditions and hence the loss of effeciency and this in turn lowers the fuel economy/MPG.

If the engine were designed for regular, ie lower compression ratio, them the loss of effeciency would not occour since the timing would not have to be retarded to avoid premature combustion/detonation. In this case, the use of premium would not increase fuel economy nor would it improve performance either.

I have written responses to this issue many times, it amazes me that people cant grasp the fact that the issue rests in the design of the combustion chamber and compression ratio and not in any energy difference in the fuel itself.

I worked for a company in their I C engine research and development, I am a retired engineer and I can tell you without a doubt that an engine operating at less than the optimal design setting in order to avoide premature combustion (detnotation) is operating at less than optimal effeciency (ie lower MPG). So when the engine is designed for premium fuel the anti knock additives in premium allow the timing to run at the optim design setting/effeciency and the maxium energy that can be extracted from the fuel will be.

One of my jobs while in IC Engine R & D was to facillitate combustion component related design changes in order to improve effeciency. We changed many design features like valves, and cylinder head configurations in order to alter gas flow and flame front flow patterns that would allow more effecient timing and hence improve effeciency. The engines I worked on were dual fuel and even tri fuel units, stationary power engines with much more horsepower than your Lexus, but the same engineering principles apply. The point of peek effeciency is a design point in every engine and it depends on all aspects of its design being utilized in order to achieve the design goals of both power and effeciency, fuel being a key component.

Years ago, stereos in vehicles were fairly "light" when it came to power draw, and they didn't compete with a myriad of other electronic features. Those days are gone and to be honest with you, I wouldn't advise anyone to listen to a high-powered stereo that is drawing off of an OEM battery, no matter what make of vehicle. If I were you, I'd listen to an MP3 or Ipod when the car is off. They are far more efficient, power draw-wise.

Dave

I can't believe you are serious. That's your advise... listen to my iPod?

Am I being punked here or what?:chairshot:

Actually with all the previous discussion about the nature of the starter battery being too small and having very little reserve you should not be listining to the stereo or doing anything much at all when the car isn't running.

Having severely chastized you on that point, LOL :o , I have a new 08 RX 400h I purchased in March, special order so I took delivery as soon as it arrived. Anyway I had the OEM battery drop below the min voltage once in October already and nothing was left on and no doors were open or anything that should drain the battery except the security system (the car was not run for a few weeks). Since I live 50 miles from the dealer I replaced the battery myself with the Optima Yellow Top # 51R deep cycle battery. I like you did not want to fool with the OEM's less than adequate battery. I called the dealer to ask them about the warranty on the battery and they told me it was not covered because I replaced it myself, said I should have called them and had Lexus roadside asistance come and either jump start it or tow it. I said like hell that doesn't make any sense towing 50 miles would have cost more than the cost of reinbursing me for the Yellow Top. The Yellow top was $ 149 plus tax and old battery core charge or trade in.

Well next time I buy my next new Lexus Hybrid, when I am satisified with the deal, I am gonna say oh by the way you owe me another $150 for the battery I bought on this car after only 8 months of ownership when service would not take care of it.

Good luck on whatever you decide but if you read other posts on here the Yellow Top is discussed in several other posts.

I'm in the Toronto area (Markham), and I'm getting conflicting information here. Is the nav system/bluetooth/rear monitor optional in the '08s, or does it come standard?

My first post here, but long time lurking before I bought my 400h in June this year.

To answer your question, I did not choose the NAV option since I don't need it. I used a hand held gps on a trip, but other than that, I know my way around town. Anyway, after I agreed on a price with the sales guy, I was taken to an administrator to sign up the deal. He asked me if I want to add rear monitor, radar for cruising (forget what they call it, but it is available in Toyota as well), and a bunch of other options. So, this implies that you do not have to buy the NAV package, but pick the individual options you need.

All you have to do is a special order and get exactly what you want. Thats what I did on my 2008 RX400h. It takes 3 months to get it built to your specifications exactly.

When I placed my offer, my car is already on the ship to Canada. So, my impression is that these can be added on by the dealer.

The Nav system, rear camera, Mark Levinson are not options that can be added by the dealer!!! Take a look at a car with the Nav/bluetooth/rear camera option and then one without it.

The Nav package requires a different dash!!

Your dealer was probabally able to hijack another car in transit ordered by another dealer that fit your specifications.

I'm in the Toronto area (Markham), and I'm getting conflicting information here. Is the nav system/bluetooth/rear monitor optional in the '08s, or does it come standard?

My first post here, but long time lurking before I bought my 400h in June this year.

To answer your question, I did not choose the NAV option since I don't need it. I used a hand held gps on a trip, but other than that, I know my way around town. Anyway, after I agreed on a price with the sales guy, I was taken to an administrator to sign up the deal. He asked me if I want to add rear monitor, radar for cruising (forget what they call it, but it is available in Toyota as well), and a bunch of other options. So, this implies that you do not have to buy the NAV package, but pick the individual options you need.

All you have to do is a special order and get exactly what you want. Thats what I did on my 2008 RX400h. It takes 3 months to get it built to your specifications exactly.

I'm not wanting to have to talk to those crazy sales people. I know some of the 2009 Toyota hybrids have been delivered, but haven't yet seen / heard anything yet regarding the 400h. I'd really like to see what the dash looks like on the 2009, now that the SKS is finally integrated (supposedly) into it. Anybody?

Edit:

Wow, it's been 24 hours, & nothing ... where's all those folks that absolutely have to get the latest & greatest? :P

I talked to the Lexus Dealer in my area just a week ago and like the others posted, I was told there would be no 2009 RX 400h, and that there would be a 2010 version redesign released in the Fall of 2009 and/or with deliveries not untill the spring of 2010.

I also have a 2006 400h with a 3 year lease. This week I called Lexus Financial as I wanted to purchase the car because we love it so much. I asked if there was a redesign anytime soon and was told that there was a total redesign for the 350 and 400h with the 2010 models. I was told that the 350 2010 model was going on the market Jan/Feb 09 and the 2010 400h May/09.

According to edmunds.com the changes are only a slight face lift! I quote a current article with spy photos just online this week

" If you're hoping for big changes you'll be disappointed, as the next RX looks much like the current model in terms of its overall size and shape. There's a slightly revised grille up front that's more angular in appearance along with a reconfigured headlight cluster.

In back, a new set of LED taillights is the most noticeable difference. There are a few minor changes to the shape of the rear fascia, but unless you put the 2010 model side by side with the current RX you would find it hard to see the difference between the two."

A link to the article: http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Gener...rticleId=129127

Another quote:

" There won't be big changes under the hood, either. A revised version of the current 3.5-liter V6 will provide the power with a six-speed automatic handling the gearchanges. A hybrid model will be available as well"

Kinda of more of what the 08 is but with a minor face lift and probably with an increase in price I speculate. I am glad I went for an 08. The pictures on inside line are not conclusive because the body is taped up to disguise the actual changes, but it is fairly easy to see the changes are indeed really minor on the outside. They did not say anything about the inside as they did not see it.

I think it's silly (for me anyway) to pay a 5% premium for what probably amounts to a sctual 0.1% cost increase in fuel additives.

As our 400h's aren't operating in any exotic compression range (I don't think) I wouldn't expect any performance increase - or certinly not enough to warrent the cost.

If you're having a problem in the summer now with the ICE not cutting off quickly and traling off for a few fractions of a second, then the higher octane should help with this -but again, it hardly seems worth the price. You can probably use the "cheap" :) stuff and use an octance/cleaning additive every so often.

Wow, been down this road before with the people on the Acura MDX forum.

First let me say I am a retired mechanical engineer who used to work for an engine builder. Actually Cooper Bessemer. In my early days I worked in research and development as a technician while I was attending college on a co-op plan.

Anyway to the point, we tested engines running in a steady state enviroment, constant speed and load for periods of time and we adjusted the timing to get optimum performance, ie fuel effeciency for the load. The engines I worked on were very large, the type used in electrical power generation and on compressor sites to move natural gas in pipelines. Typical engine configurations were as large as 12, 16 and even 20 cylinders and up to a maximum of 16,500 HP.

These engines ran very low RPM and piston slap could be easily discerned.

We did a lot of work on cylinder/valve configurations in order to achieve total

combustion. As you might imagine fuel efficiency is very important on a 16,500 HP engine running all day long 24/7 pumping natural gas from Texas to Ohio for example. The companies like Columbia Gas Transmission want the best efficiency they can get.

A little more background here and then to my point. The 2006 RX manual did not suggest you must run 91 Octane premium, also the 2006 manual recommended 5w-30 weight oil; but the 2008 manual says 91 octane premium

is required, and they also changed the oil requirements to 5w-20 and as an alternate 0w-20. ok so what design changes to the engine have occurred, I can only guess. I could look at compression ratios ect and speculate but who knows for sure.

Anyway back to the R & D testing and results:

1. Engines run most efficiently at the proper timing setting, retarding timing for any reason not only reduces available HP, it also reduces fuel efficiency even if you are not needing the extra optimal HP available at the optimal timing.

We could always see the impact of less than optimum timing on fuel effeciency

2.In a large engine like I am talking about, piston slap really sounds terrible, when the engine knock occurs, its a loud and ugly event; but in a small car engine it isn't so loud and to boot it is deadened by other sounds, it is however just as damaging.

3.It's all in the design, how the engine is meant to be run, the compression ratio and the cylinder head design along with valve placement configurations. The gas flame front will advance differently and impact both maximum energy output and fuel efficiency, no matter what the load the design parameters of the engine cylinder, proper timing and yes optimum fuel based on the design/ implemented design goals.

Now having said all that, we need to think about how the hybrid ICE setup works, yes it runs at in a more constant RPM range with a variable load. Also like others have said driving for best fuel economy, we aren't pushing the engine into the extremes in needed HP, but the interface of the ICE and how load is applied by the hybrid system is vastly different from a conventional gas engine only setup. Ping is of course going to be more noticeable and more prevalent when power demand varies more with a regular transmission, but that does not mean that the hybrid setup with a CVT doesn't encounter load variations that would cause piston slap-ping if it weren't for the electronic

countermeasures retarding the timing as needed.

Another point as I understand it, the electronic timing anti knock system is designed to reset the timing curve over a period of time, like when you switch

gas from one tank to the next, instantaneous timing adjustments do occur, but the whole timing curve is only gradually adjusted as you burn thru a change in octane of a new tank of fuel. I am not a Lexus engineer so I am only speculating based on rumors I have heard.

Also I will state now I own a new 2008 RX 400h and I use 91 octane premium, with $4 a gallon gas $0.20 is only a 5% premium and 5% of 27 mpg is only a 1.3 MPG difference and you break even. Plus I have the added comfort of knowing I can tromp on it if I want to,I can go up steep hills without worry, I can encounter really hot summer days with the AC running and indirectly loading the engine for needed electrical power ect. However, the best part is I can go the the Lexus dealer in the case of a warranty related failure and say I followed the recommended fuel requirement and my warranty should be good

if needed.

I know way too long, to summarize though, it's your $49,000/ $50,000 car do what you want to, my 08 RX 400h calls for premium required in the manual and it's only 5% more at todays prices and I am a mechanical engineer with engine testing experience, but I still cant totally evaluate how necessary it is or the total impact of not using premium. So I will error on the side of caution following the factory recommendations and enjoy the ride when I might otherwise worry. If I want to feel the power I can and I can climb a steep hills without having to reduce speed going up it without concern.

I am older and not a heavy footed driver, I drive for economy most of the

time. I still however find times when I want to use my car close to it's design potential.

If you want to see the wild side, go to a Ford Truck site: They are the most obnoxious bunch ever, If it isnt Motorcraft, Ford, etc. you are dead meat. Quite frankly the world is not a friendly place, from my years of experience I always treat folks correctly, but get over it and get some thick skin....Build a bridge and get over it....

You are so right...I do need to toughen up... I live in L.A. for Pete's sake! I have actually succeeded in one of the most difficult areas to live in,especially as a nice person! I am a tiger at work though and I just love those times when I don't have to have tough skin and can just enjoy decent conversations. Thanks for the advice and I will take it with a humble heart. I was just in a down mood when I came upon the negative posts and lashed out in a "Can't we just get along" kind of way. But it's all good and I am not as fragile as I come across. The secret to my success and the leisurely, wonderful life that I have in a place like L.A. is that I have a healthy balance of thick and thin skin...if that's possible...I guess everything is metaphorically,ey? OK, back to life and all of its wonders.....Rey Bustos, happy Lexus owner in crazy L.A.

Rey,

Don't leave we need and appreciate people like you, your exploits with your RX, like the sound deadening, roof rack removal and your super looking front and rear bumper mods have been very helpful, I really love your bumper mods. I know I responded to Mitch about his gripes and as for the Nav, while I like my Acura better, I don't think Mitch even read the manual, its not that bad if you know how to use it. You can do searches like you said anywhere if you put in the city name first. I added the lockpick 3 basic to my 08RX and I find the system works quite well if you just read the manual on how the system works. All except the voice command part, mine doesn't understand what I ask it and neither does my Acura.

I do believe however like others have said, this site is much more civil then most of the other car sites, and I also believe there are people out there who just post stuff to antagonize people who like the product.

Anyway don't let them get to you don't leave just ignore people like Mitch.

Dennis

I got the basic lockpick 3 that unlocks the navigation feature on my 2008 RX400h and it works like a champ. Install took less than 5 minutes. I really want to utilize the functionality of the ulitmate lockpick 3 that would allow me to use on screen phone dialing while driving, but according to the coastaltech website, I am not sure if my vheicle (Mark Levinson with 6 disc CD/DVD changer) supports this.

Does anyone have any info concerning the success or failure of using the ultimate lockpick 3 with an 08 RX 400h that has the same stereo components as described?

Thanks

P.S.

If anyone needs install help, let me know. I have all but mastered disassembly of my RX's interior :)

I too have the RX 400h with Mark Levinson sound and 6 disc cd/dvd changer. I also purchased the lockpick 3 basic. When I purchased mine I called them to confirm that it would work and also if the lockpick 3 ultimate would work or not. I was told that the basic was all that would work with the ML sound system if it had the 6 disc in dash cd/dvd changer. This is a bit confusing to me as well because apparently the ultimate allows you to watch dvd's on the front screen while driving, which means yo need the ML system to have the front dvd head to read the dvd's and secondly I think they say it does work i the RX 350? I am not sure if they are confused about the rear entertainment configuration on this issue or not?

Anyway I did not really want the 3 ultimate real bad because all it would add for me that I would like is phone dialing while moving using the bluetooth screen/phone book and touch pad. I can pick up my phone and dial it just as easily and it will still go thru the bluetooth link. Plus your speed dial numbers in the Lexus phone book are accessible while moving without the lockpick ultimate.

Well, I've had my RX400h about 9 months now and I have to say, I am unlikely to buy another Lexus (or Toyota). I guess I was spoiled by BMW's thoughtful engineering, and the Lexus just has too many stupid design decisions for me to overlook.

My list (not in any particular order):

• - The GPS is a TRAINWRECK. I have had GPS since 1997 in most of my cars. Had I known how bad the GPS is on the Lexus, I would have bought a Ford Hybrid Escape. The list is long:
  • - Can't Enter Address Use While Driving. This is just plain idiotic. But I think everyone agrees on this point. My BMW and Honda both work normally. But hey, I can POINT TO A LOCATION by scrolling the map while driving (oh, that's a good way to keep your eyes on the road!). Thanks, lawyers and lousy Lexus UI engineers.
    

• - The Voice Recognition only works in the driveway. Well, maybe at speeds that cause no road noise. Above that, forget it. I end up screaming a string of obscenities at the car. And it can't recognize my home town at all ("San Jose"). No, I don't have a strange accent. But I have tried a Japanese accent...no luck. The Honda is MUCH better.
  

• - Stupid restrictions on which screen you can use voice recognition commands. You want to "Go Home" but you're on the wrong screen? Well, the unit will recognize "Go Home" (after 2-3 tries) but then tells you "Not Available on this Screen". Seriously? Was it not clear what I wanted to do? Unbelievably stupid UI design. The same if I want to enter an address but I am on the Energy screen. So how is this safer? I need to push a bunch of buttons just to do what it ALREADY HAS RECOGNIZED that I want to do. My Honda doesn't do this. "Go Home" works everywhere.
  

• - Really dumb algorithm for calculating arrival time. OK, so you FINALLY got the address in to the unit after pulling over on a dangerous shoulder to satisfy the lawyers. Now, the GPS blindly uses whatever speeds you've programmed into the unit for highway, local road, etc. Even my 10 year old BMW did a better job than this by looking at average speeds. And I am amazed at how well the Honda does (and I don't know how it does it, don't care.)
  

• - No 3D View. OK, this is just jealousy of the Acura and BMW GPSes. But Lexus is in the same class of product, it should be just as good.
  

• - The Overall Console Interface. By this I mean both the LCD screen and the small LCD on the radio. Want to see a song title or artist? Well, you're not allowed on the big screen while you are moving. But by pushing multiple buttons on the lower screen, you can! Does this make ANY sense? If the idea is to keep my eyes on the road, why allow it at all? This type of arbitrary design is EVERYWHERE (especially with the GPS, see below). My Honda let's me see the song name and title while driving.
  There are MULTIPLE examples of where actions are arbitrarily allowed while driving while others are forbidden. There appears to be little rhyme or reason. Get a clue Lexus, I am an adult and it is not your responsibility to prevent me from using what I paid for.
  

• - I like the fact you can play MP3/WMA CDs, but why not MP3 DVDs? You have DVD read capability, this is just software. But as long as we're talking MP3s...
  

• - No iPod interface or HDD based player? Really? It's 2008 guys! I long for the capabilities in those cheapo Fords I see in commercials ("play artist 'Strokes'"). It's just sad leading edge technology is not in this car.
  

• - $500 to install XM? Really? It was FREE in my Honda (which was $20K less).
  

• - The mileage is not as high as the EPA mileage. If I drive perfectly I can get around 25. Usually it is around 22.5. Nothing like the 30+ you advertise for city driving. And pretty much everyone I have spoken to who has a RX400h agrees.
  

• - The headlights are horrible in extremely dark conditions. I was on highway 80 west of Truckee California and was SHOCKED at how bad the lights are in pitch black conditions. The beams seem to die instantly about 150 feet out. No rolloff, they just die. I mentioned this to the dealer at the 5000 mile checkup and the service person said "yeah, customers have been complaining about that for years." Really? Lexus, are you listening?
  

I have more annoyances that are minor, like the dumb knee-bashing placement of the left cup holder near the door (though it was nice to find it, 3 months after I had the car :)). But I think I'll stop here.

I had high hopes for the RX400h when I first got it, but the annoyances are so many that I can honestly say I will never buy another Lexus. As soon as there is a hybrid (or hydrogen!) BMW small SUV, the RX is going away...

You do sound unhappy about a lot of things on the RX that I would have thought you would have noticed before you bought one, but the good news is the resale value of your Lexus RX 400h should be real high as hybrids are in demand and short in supply where as other SUV's are severly depressed in the market. Bet you could sell it and make a great deal on a gas guzzling BMW SUV.

As for not getting the mileage the sticker said I do better on the highway side on my 08 RX400h, if I drive carefully I can get around 32.6 MPG I average around 28.4 MPG city and highway combined about 50/50.

As for the nav system, I agree, I have a 07 Acura MDX and the Lexus nav system is a joke in comparison, but I added the Coastaltech Lockpick 3 basic and it allows me to input destinations while moving, look for POI's ect., and for only $99 and it only took 5 min to install. The lockpick really improves the functionality to a point where I am not totally happy with the Lexus system, but it is now quite usable while driving. Oh and while I like my Acura the gas mileage sucks compared with my Lexus RX400h.

One other point, the cup holder you mentioned, wow you must have long legs to have a problem, that it is up past the centerline of the steering column and up against the door, dont know what else they could have done other than not put one there at all.

I think you have to consider the Lexus is a 5 yr old design that will probably be improved when the new model comes out next year, but I doubt the nav system will be improved, except again the Lockpick is well worth the money if you plan on keeping your current RX very long.

NEON's question?

"this leaves me wondering... why weren't these equipped from the factory? or at least an option for them?!!!"

Well that would have been a good winter tire option for Lexus to offer but I notice Lexus never offers a winter tire for any of its vehicles on their web site.

I have a Porsche Cayenne S and I considered these for a dedicated winter tire on my Porsche, they are like you say an incredible tire, many Porsche Cayenne owners use them.

I think therefore one reason Lexus did not offer them is they are a ICE and SNOW tire, my guess is most 400h owners would not want a tire that is designed to be a dedicated ICE/SNOW tire for all seasons. As a tire designed to be a winter tire they have tread compounds that will wear out much faster when driven in summer high heat environments.

Anyone wanting to use a more aggressive winter ICE/Snow design like the Perelli should also consider two other excellent dedicated winter ICE/Snow designs. One the Dunlop WT M2 Grandtrek is an excellent ICE/Snow design and the other is the Bridgestone Blizzak LM25 4x4, both are excellent designs like the Perilli. Also like the Perilli though they have softer tread compounds for better low temperature grip and they will will wear faster if driven a lot in high heat summer driving conditions. Excellent tires all though if you want to use the in mud, ice and snow conditions and don't mind the higher wear rate in hot climatic conditions. I have used both the Dunlop and Bridgestones I mentioned above, the Dunlops on my Porsche Cayenne S

and the Bridgestone Blizzak LM 25 4x4 on my 07 Acura MDX, however I remove them in the summer. On the Acura for example I use the Bridgestone Alenzas 255x55x18 and it performs beautifully, so much so I am questioning even need the Blizzak LM25 4x4's next winter.

On my 400h I opted like several others on here for the Bridgestone Alenzas, I had the dealer remove the factory tires before I took delivery even. The Alenzas come in both the original OEM recommended 235x55x18 and the 255x55x18 that some of the others opted to up size too. I personally went with the 235x55x18 and I found that the performance enhancement that they claim to get from the larger size is also available in the Alenza 235x55x18. I think its not just the tire size that porvides the improved handling, it also in large part due to the design change when you ditch the OEM tires. you see both the Michelin and Goodyear OEM fitments are really not truck tires, they are more a car tire design and I think Lexus wanted to give the softer ride and thats why they used them.

Enjoy your Perelli's they are and excellent tire, and while some people might think we are nuts for leaving them on all year I strongly considered doing just that with my Dunlop WT M2 Grandtrek's. The only reason I didn't was because I wanted a set of 19" wheels for my Porsche for the summer with 275x45x19 that came with Perelli summer tires.

Attached are pictures of my Porsche Cayenne S with the Dunlop Grantrek WT M2 on 18" rims and my Summer Perelli P Zero's on 19" rims.

Dennis

i have a friend with a body shop that helped me rebadge my Ford Exploder when the rear deck was dented. Since the badges had to come off during painting i had him order a BMW M5 logo, it was only $70 with his discount. Its just a piece of plastic. Perhaps you can find a body shop that will help you change it out for a much more reasonable price.

I know what you mean, I bought a set of mud flaps for my new 400h before delivery, the mud flaps were OEM Lexus made to fit the pre drilled holes in the front and they required two holes that had to be drilled for the rear flaps. I ask service how much to install them and was told $300. I said no thanks I will do it myself. The flaps were only a little over $100, and $300 to install, I couldn't believe it.

It took me about 15 min per flap, the front ones were already pre drilled and all I had to do was remove the existing screws and put in the new ones supplied. The rear ones were easy to do, I had a small enough drill that I did not even have to remove the rear wheels. I dont know if the dealer would have maybe been planning on removing the wheels to give him better access, but still, what a rip off.

The "Driving conditions" factor cannot be overstated. Being that the majority of us live in fairly large cities (or close to them), payback comes at a much faster rate than calculated by the various "experts". For example, the MPG advantage attained if heavy traffic is encountered every workday can mean a difference of 80-100% between a non-hybrid and hybrid. City mileage for non-hybrid SUVs is often atrotious, to say the least.

Even at 4-5 years payback, most owners of hybrids will enjoy the benefits many years beyond that, as the average length of vehicle ownership in the US is approaching 10 years. (Canada's is just a bit over 8 years).

Based upon the durability and reliability of our RX400h, there really is no reason to buy a new vehicle anytime soon.

As far as stocks are concerned, this is not a good time to day-trade unless you really know what you're doing.

Regarding resale value: Hybrid SUVs are holding their value far better than their non-hybrid counterparts.

I dont know what all of you are thinking about but have any of you considered the greater resale value of the hybrid 400h?

I trade cars a lot more frequently as I want the latest way to often for my own good,,lol anyway resale on other SUV's is dropping like a rock, along with pick up trucks ect. I know you pay more for your hybrid, but as gas prices increase so does your resale value on a hybrid.

I looked at a 2 year old Prius last year, Carmax wanted within $2000 of the price of a new one and it had 21000 miles on it. So I bought new, and i bought a new 400h just this March. Also I am getting over 28.5 MPG average so far and at times on the highway I have gotten 32.6 MPG, it is all in how you drive, but owners of the newer ones seem to be reporting higher MPG's. Oh and by the way the manual on the 2008 400h says premium required!

dennis

Well can I join the stupid club too. I bought a 2008 RX 400h this year because I too don't want a bigger vehicle and especially third row seats that are just a big nuisance if you don't need them. Oh and by the way for me the new stuff i would have had to wait 1.5 years for, well guess what i wont be the guinea pig like many times the first year of a new generation usually has a lot of little bugs that need to be worked out. Oh and the sticker price, well if the Highlander Hybrid is any indication, the next RX 400h will go up considerably I suspect by around $5000 or more. So for me I would have had to wait more like 2.5 years for the 2011 mod year in order to avoid the debugging process and all the while gas is headed to $6.00 a gallon, yes they are now predicting $200 a barrel oil in the near future. Who knows I don't have a crystal ball but the upward spiral still seems to be advancing awfully fast. We just hit $ 3.80 for regular today here in Ohio.

Anyhow just my 2 cents .

In strictly highway driving when I fill up and get directly on the highway, I have done as well as 32.6 MPG. This is on state routes (50 to 60 MPH) not freeway in warm weather, 60 deg F or above. I average around 24 MPG in the city, so I guess that makes for a streight 50/50 average of 28.25 MPG. My RX is new though, less than 1300 miles and I suppose it will get better once I am over 2500 to 3000 miles or so.

We get about 35MPG with our Prius in our combined driving, on the highway we get about 42. If you have a highway commute and you're getting 35 in a Yaris...or even a Corolla. With a 40 mile commute one way, thats 80 miles a day, or 400 miles a week. Thats 11 gallons of fuel in a Corolla or Yaris, 10 in a Prius. That one gallon a week, even at $10 a gallon is only a savings of $40 a month, the cost of the Prius vs the other car is going to equal a lot more than that in payment...

Well I have a Lexus 400h and a Prius and somehow I seem to do better than average on both cars. With my Prius I get around 52 to 55 MPG on the highway in the summer months with the AC on and driving 70 MPH, city wise my trips are real short usually 2 or 3 miles max and I only get 40 to 45 MPG city.

As for looks, I like it and as for comfort, yea its no a Lexus 400h, but its not uncomfortable for me either. So much so that we often drive it on vacation trips of up to 400 miles one way. Longer vacation trips we take the Lexus.

I looked at the Yaris and Fit, no way not comparable in my opinion and as for the extra cost of the Prius, just look at the resale value of the Prius and that will only get better as the price of gas continues to rise.

Also to respond to your earlier comment about the Lexus Prius being an ES, well the dealer told me it is supposed to be a new platform for Lexus, not a shared IS or ES but something in between like I said in my last post.

Hi,

I spoke with my dealer and was told the new hybrid will fit between the IS and the ES and should get around 40 MPG average. I was also told that it would be introduced next spring I suspect as a 2010 model. I told him I wanted one and to keep me informed. He said I could probably find out more on autospies.com than he gets from Lexus, but promised to keep me updated as he gets info.