Had To Tap Starter While Turning Key To Get It To Start

[SRK]

Do you mean $300.00 for the whole job - re and re the starter, and overhaul it, parts and labour? The flat rate to re-re the starter is four hours alone. Parts have to be at least $150.00 - coolant, gaskets, starter parts etc.... If true that's the deal of the century. Good luck.

[prix]

So sick of this. I was at the gas station earlier today and noticed that telltale sluggishness on start-up. Drove straight to AutoZone, which wasn't too far away, to have them check the charge on the battery. Sure enough, it had dropped another 10% (was at 74%) down from 84% a few days ago. We put it on a slow charge and it was back at 100% in about 45 minutes. When done, he took the battery off the charger and it sat on the counter for about 15 minutes until he could get away to put it back in the car. He checked the charge again, and by that time, it had dropped to 60%. He said the battery was shot. The 60% was enough to get the car started tho.

The last time AAA was here he ran a full test that showed the alternator was good (he gave me the printout). This battery is 10 months old (and is a replacement for another AAA battery that went out a few months before its warranty expired). What could ruin a 10 month old battery? I had been letting the car sit for long periods and when I did drive it, it was for around town driving over short distances, so I guess that was not the best plan, battery wise. But is there anything else?

If I put in a new one (which I will get pro rated), what are the odds I will have the same problem in a few weeks? Few months? Everyone says look at the alternator, but that tested fine the last go around (about a week ago).

If it were you, what would you do next (besides putting in a new battery)?

One more question...someone standing next to me at AutoZone looked at the cranking amps on the AAA battery (at 650) and said that was too low for the engine. Is this true? Should I get a 1,000 amp battery replacement?

Thanks! The key thing...just something I've noticed (it's not so hot that I could light a cancer stick with it). I'll keep an eye on it and maybe do some more online research when I have the time.

The AAA battery tech did run a full 'test', where he did all kinds of things, including revving the engine, etc. Based on the printout he gave me, the starter cranking test is 'normal' w/voltage at 10.560; replacing the battery was 'recommended'(but since it's less than a year old, the tech said it was highly likely the battery was rechargeable, and that if I got a slow charge on it and he came back a week later and reran the test, that he would get a good reading); and the 'charging system test' came back 'no problems'. 'No load' was at 14.160 and loaded was at '14.120'. Ripple (I have no idea what that is) was 70h0(??). The latter is hard to read. I'll give it some time, then take the car in to a shop for another full testing on the battery and alternator in a few days.

In the meantime, I'll continue to track down the best starter price/source, in case I need (pretty sure I will). Will post back when I have more info...

Hi, yes, I had that done this morning when I was at Autozone getting the charge. They loaned me a wire brush and I scrubbed out the interiors of the cable ends (the o-shape that fits over the battery posts) and they also scrubbed the posts themselves before putting it the charger. It tested at only a 65% charge, so yes, it needed charging. It probably would have had much less than 65% had I not gone for that drive last night. I got some help and he used a 10mm socket wrench to really tighten the terminals (I watched to make sure). So everything is clean and on there really tight.

The starter was fine this morning, and even sounded normal. But as the day wore on the second and third time I started it (a total of five times today, if I am not mistaken), I thought I heard the loose brushing sound again.

Is it normal for the ignition key to be 'hot' when you first remove it after extensive around town driving? The car was in use a good four hours. After removing the key, I noticed the heat...not red not exactly, but fairly toasty.

In a way, yes. you should be able to get a better price from a Toyota parts store. Provide them with your VIN and the Part # from the Online retailer, just in-case they ask for it, and they should be able to help you. Since Lexus vehicles are upper-scale Toyotas they share similar parts. As for the manifold gasket whoever is replacing the existing starter with the new one should determine if it's needed or not.

BTW I don't think you responded to my original query. Did you tighten-down the positive and negative terminal nuts?

No, the key should not be hot. The key can be warm after extensive driving during summer. It's a possibility some parts of your engine bay is overheating or there's an electric discharge along the line but I am only speculating.

Let's work on the starter issue. Now, i've read what CuriousB mentioned about the AAA guy and the starter. He's right, the starter isn't engaged long enough to draw too many amps. I wonder if the AAA guy was trying to say alternator instead of starter, which is designed to draw and expel electrical current to and from the battery. That was going to be my third troubleshooting tip, replacement of the alternator, but before you do that see if your new battery has lost charge; that's one of a few clear indicators your alternator is defective.

So before you buy a new starter and the alternator, I would test the battery again. The Autozone and Advanced Auto guys have tester you can use or just ask them to run a diagnostic. A proper test includes testing with the headlights on, reving the engine and a couple of other things I can't recall of the top of my head. The final reading should indicate what device is going or gone bad.

I hope it's just the battery that's defective.

If the 85% charge resulted in adequate engine start, starter, operation then leave it at that. The higher level you keep the battery charged the shorter its service life will be. For that very reason I don't think modern day automotive, aletrnator, battery charging systems are designed to keep the battery "topped off". My '01 Porsche C4 ALWAYS starts, but much quicker, higher rate of starter motor "turn-over" if I have just topped off the charge with an external charger.

[landar]

If the battery was charged, set for 15 minutes and was down to 60% (with a load, I presume) then the battery is shot. Why? Well, letting the battery drain due to non-use is a killer for lead acid batteries such as this. You have to keep these batteries charged up to keep from sulfation(no, I did not make that up...sounds like it, huh? :whistles: )

From your previous posts, it sure looks like you do not use the car enough to keep the battery fully charged and it is now done for(the battery, not the car). Especially if you let it go down in the cold months. From your description of things, it seems like its time for a new battery.

Oh, and you do not need a 1000 CCA battery. Just put the original size battery in there and you should be good to go.

[prix]

Oh, thanks so much. Yes, the battery was back in the car and the engine was running when it read 60%. This was AFTER the slow charge. It's gone.

I still could have a problem with the starter, but one thing at a time. I will say this, when the battery was fully charged, the starter seemed normal. Then, when the battery was low (such as today) the starter made that weird noise I mentioned earlier (kind of a loose, gnashing sound). I don't know if these two 'events' are related (could be wishful thinking on my part), but it did kind of seem that way. I will know more after the new battery is in and I have a few more listens to the starter.

I would let three or four days go by where I wasn't driving it at all, then zip off to a store for a few miles round trip. Or maybe even a mile round trip. The furthest I've driven lately was 20 miles RT and even then, a lot of that was stop and go, or 35-40 mph tops, as it was all on surface streets through residential and light commercial (with lots of stop signs and stop lights and pokey traffic). Lot of good that big V-8 engine does me. Looks like I will need to make some changes in my driving habits (and I will).

I appreciate knowing about the cranking amps. I won't worry about it (what he said).

If the battery was charged, set for 15 minutes and was down to 60% (with a load, I presume) then the battery is shot. Why? Well, letting the battery drain due to non-use is a killer for lead acid batteries such as this. You have to keep these batteries charged up to keep from sulfation(no, I did not make that up...sounds like it, huh? :whistles: )

From your previous posts, it sure looks like you do not use the car enough to keep the battery fully charged and it is now done for(the battery, not the car). Especially if you let it go down in the cold months. From your description of things, it seems like its time for a new battery.

Oh, and you do not need a 1000 CCA battery. Just put the original size battery in there and you should be good to go.

[prix]

Yes, I do mean that. IF I have to replace the starter (the saga continues), I plan to take it to him. The quote I got on the gaskets (I called around in case I had to supply them to someone) was only $24 for 2 intake manifold. They said they would not need to replace the air surge gaskets. I have no idea what the starter parts cost. His quote was for everything -- starter rebuild, labor, gaskets.

I told him right upfront that I was having second thoughts about buying an OTC rebuilt, and he said he does not recommend them (and why). He said it's better to rebuild what you have. I asked if his rebuild included replacing the starter drive and he said 'yes' and that what they do is a "complete overhaul". I also questioned his quote on the labor, and reminded him it was under the intake manifold. He wasn't phased in the slightest and did not change his quote.

That's all I have to go on. If I need a starter, I will post back here and let you know how it goes.

Do you mean $300.00 for the whole job - re and re the starter, and overhaul it, parts and labour? The flat rate to re-re the starter is four hours alone. Parts have to be at least $150.00 - coolant, gaskets, starter parts etc.... If true that's the deal of the century. Good luck.

[DeanH]

I've pretty much got things lined up for a starter replacement at this point (most of the teeth gnashing is over). They will do the starter rebuild and the removal/install, so the onus is on them if the part fails. It's a starter/alternator specialty shop that has a 40 year track record. They work on all makes/models of cars and didn't blink when I said it was an LS400. I can get it all done for just under $300, which is a great deal. Warranty is 1 year on labor and 4 years on the part. As I said, the car is starting up fine for now. I am not hearing any weird starter noises like I did the night AAA was out. Famous last words.

The remaining mystery is the battery. Remember, when this all started, the battery tested fine, which is why AAA said it's probably the starter (that and because tapping in the engine area caused it to start). Then three days later, the battery was dead, possibly for a combination of reasons: I had not driven the car much in weeks; the night weather had turned colder; and I had repeatedly tried to start the car over a period of days. AAA told me to go get a two hour slow charge the next morning. AutoZone instead gave me a fast charge and brought it up to 100%. Yesterday (four days later), when they retested it, it had lost 16% of its charge (in four days).

I plan to take the car in after another four days or so to a service station that I have been referred to. If the battery shows further discharge, they I will have them do the slow charge. Then another retest after a week or so to see whether it's holding the slow charge. If it isn't, then it's time to track down a short or electrical problem or some other reason the battery is being drained. If there is no obvious connection or electrical problem, then time to try a new battery.

This battery is only about 9 months old. This is my second AAA battery. The first one had to be replaced at about 2 years 9 months. My old battery (it may have been a Sears...not sure) lasted five years!

Could the mechanic also rebuild the starter or is he not familiar with them? The reason I ask this is because you are going to have a little logistic issue having him remove the existing starter and waiting for the rebuilding shop to complete the rebuild. If you have the mechanic do the rebuild (again, if qualified), you put the onus on him to do the complete job correctly. If, by chance, the whole job is done and the starter wont whirl, it is his responsibility and (hopefully) warranted by him. If the rebuild shop screws up, he charges you again for labor.

At the very least, the mechanic should perform a "sanity" test of the rebuilt starter before proceeding with the install. So, just some things to ponder...as if you needed more... (I know you are agonizing over this issue enough already).

How much is the independent mechanic going to charge for the starter removal and replacement if you supply the parts?

Who was the mechanic you used for the starter replacement, name, address and phone would be appreciated if available.

[prix]

Dean --

Update: I haven't used him yet, as my starter has worked fine for more than a month. I also still have the same battery, and it's starting up every single day as well. I plan to get that retested in a week or so. Here's a link to reviews on the shop. If the moderator here doesn't allow the link, then PM me and I will send you the info.

I just assume the starter will 'go' at some point, but it's possible that the problems I was having were related to the cold (I think it was down in the high 30s a few of those nights -- very cold for here).

http://www.yelp.com/biz/voltec-battery-los-angeles-2

I think that lists the working number but not sure. Post back here if you need more info.

I've pretty much got things lined up for a starter replacement at this point (most of the teeth gnashing is over). They will do the starter rebuild and the removal/install, so the onus is on them if the part fails. It's a starter/alternator specialty shop that has a 40 year track record. They work on all makes/models of cars and didn't blink when I said it was an LS400. I can get it all done for just under $300, which is a great deal. Warranty is 1 year on labor and 4 years on the part. As I said, the car is starting up fine for now. I am not hearing any weird starter noises like I did the night AAA was out. Famous last words.

The remaining mystery is the battery. Remember, when this all started, the battery tested fine, which is why AAA said it's probably the starter (that and because tapping in the engine area caused it to start). Then three days later, the battery was dead, possibly for a combination of reasons: I had not driven the car much in weeks; the night weather had turned colder; and I had repeatedly tried to start the car over a period of days. AAA told me to go get a two hour slow charge the next morning. AutoZone instead gave me a fast charge and brought it up to 100%. Yesterday (four days later), when they retested it, it had lost 16% of its charge (in four days).

I plan to take the car in after another four days or so to a service station that I have been referred to. If the battery shows further discharge, they I will have them do the slow charge. Then another retest after a week or so to see whether it's holding the slow charge. If it isn't, then it's time to track down a short or electrical problem or some other reason the battery is being drained. If there is no obvious connection or electrical problem, then time to try a new battery.

This battery is only about 9 months old. This is my second AAA battery. The first one had to be replaced at about 2 years 9 months. My old battery (it may have been a Sears...not sure) lasted five years!

Could the mechanic also rebuild the starter or is he not familiar with them? The reason I ask this is because you are going to have a little logistic issue having him remove the existing starter and waiting for the rebuilding shop to complete the rebuild. If you have the mechanic do the rebuild (again, if qualified), you put the onus on him to do the complete job correctly. If, by chance, the whole job is done and the starter wont whirl, it is his responsibility and (hopefully) warranted by him. If the rebuild shop screws up, he charges you again for labor.

At the very least, the mechanic should perform a "sanity" test of the rebuilt starter before proceeding with the install. So, just some things to ponder...as if you needed more... (I know you are agonizing over this issue enough already).

How much is the independent mechanic going to charge for the starter removal and replacement if you supply the parts?

Who was the mechanic you used for the starter replacement, name, address and phone would be appreciated if available.