nharish

These people aren't out to screw you. They "orchestrated the whole thing"? Come on. The general manager routinely deals with customers they flag in the database as being "difficult". DIFFICULT! PERCEPTIONS AGAIN. BTW, THAT WAS THE FIRST AND ONLY TIME I WENT TO THE DEALERSHIP. As for the tranny flash, once the tranny is flashed it cannot be reset. OK. I AM JUST STATING WHAT THE DEALERSHIP TOLD ME THEY DID. THEY ALSO SAID THEY TEST DROVE MY CAR WHICH I KNOW THEY DID NOT. I HAD 4 INSTANCES OF FLARE ON THE SAME DAY I TOOK THE CAR BACK AND THE NEXT DAY. THE NUMBER OF INSTANCES PER DAY HAS REDUCED SINCE BUT STILL KEEPS HAPPENING BEFORE THE CAR HITS A STEADY TEMPERATURE. What reason did they give you for denying you service? YOU SHOULD GO BACK AND READ MY FIRST POST. IT SEEMS TO ME THAT YOU HAVE NOT READ MY ORIGINAL POST. ITS SURPRISING THAT YOU MAKE STATEMENTS THE WAY YOU DO ABOUT THE PROBLEM AND WORSE ABOUT ME. IN A NUTSHELL, THEY CLAIM THAT THE CAR IS FIXED WHICH IS A BLATANT LIE. I watched your video. Honestly...I don't really see the issue. Yeah the car drifts, but each time it drifts, including when you brake, its very clearly in the direction of road crowning that is evident in the video. The steering wheel is off center when tracking straight, but thats very easily adjusted and almost every alignment I have done I have to take back because they've forgotten to adjust it to straight. Maybe it just doesn't come across in the video, but when you turn loose of the steering wheel on a road with a crown...the car is going to drift away from the crown. WRONG! I CAN GO OVER A PHYSICS 101 CLASS HERE AND THAT IS NOT TRUE. IF IT WERE, THEN MY OTHER SUV (RAV4) SHOULD HAVE DONE THAT. SO WOULD MY PASSAT AND MY SENTRA (REMEMBER WHEN YOU ARE DECELERATING, ITS ONLY A FACTOR OF THE CURRENT SPEED, NOT HOW MANY HORSES YOUR CAR CAN PUT OUT. SAME STORY FOR BRAKING). IT IS TRUE THAT ANY VEHICLE WILL CHOOSE TO PULL IN THE DIRECTION OF THE CROWN. HOWEVER, ONCE YOU COMPENSATE FOR IT, IT HOLDS ITS LINE. THIS VERY CAR USED TO BEHAVE THAT WAY. I CAN GO ON AND ON BUT CAN YOU WAKE UP SOMEONE THAT PRETENDS TO BE ASLEEP. SKPERFORMANCE, BTW, I NEVER SAID ONCE IN THIS FORUM THAT THE SUGGESTIONS GIVEN BY YOU WERE USELESS. NOR DID I SAY I KNOW EVERYTHING AND YOU GUYS KNOW NOTHING. ALL I HAVE DONE IS DISAGREE WITH SW03ES ON THE BASIS OF ETHICS. HE'S ASKED ME TO GO AND GET MY CAR FIXED ELSEWHERE (PAY OUT OF MY POCKET) AND I REFUSE PURELY ON THE BASIS OF PRINCIPLE. ALL I SAY IS THAT I HAVE DONE A LOT OF RESEARCH ON WHAT I SAY HERE AND AM NOT CORRUPTING FACTS. This is not true. You can have your vehicle serviced anywhere and Lexus MUST honor the warranty. Its the law. I AGREE, IT IS THE LAW. HOWEVER, YOU DO HAVE TO GO THROUGH THE HASSLE OF PAYING UPFRONT AND FIGHTING OVER IT WITH LEXUS ALL OVER AGAIN. MOREOVER, THEY CAN CLAIM THAT THE CAR HAS BEEN MODIFIED ETC. No, not having any direct experience with the car I cannot write an email supporting you when I don't have any direct experience with your issue. You're making the issue hard on yourself...take the car to an independent Lexus shop and have them go over the front end with a fine tooth comb and see if they can find an issue. If they can then in the very least you can have it repaired and send Lexus the bill. If you aren't interested in doing what we suggest...then there isn't anything else we can do for you. ITS NOT THAT I AM NOT INTERESTED. IF YOU ASK ME TO GO TO AN INDEPENDENT MECHANIC THAT KNOWS A LEXUS VERY WELL, I FIRST GOT TO FIND ONE. I AM SURE NTB OR A MIDAS OR A PEP BOYS IS NOT ONE OF THEM. ITS EASIER SAID THAN DONE. I AM NOT AT WAR WITH LEXUS OR TOYOTA. ALL I AM ASKING FOR IS SOME JUSTICE FOR WHAT I HAVE BEEN PUT THROUGH.

Absolutely, this is what I and others have suggested you do from day one... SKPerformance and SW03ES, I first would like to clarify a few things: 1. I have gone to 3 dealers. The first screwed up my car, the second refused to make amends and the third lied about the fix. I do not think that the mileage was a mistake. It was all orchestrated. How else would you explain a General Service Manager being the only person speaking to me from the beginning (after I dropped off the car). They also state that they reset my transmission flash but its only become worse after that. 2. Had a regional rep test drive my car. He agreed that there was a problem and then backtracked on paper. I have a signed copy of the service order that states that I disagree with the problem and its resolution. Lexus HQ asked me to take a second opinion for a second dealer (and said they would speak to the dealer which they did per their statement). The second dealer refused service. So the manufacturer has been directly involved. 3. Here is a link to a video that I recorded: As you will see the car drifts... and drifts big time! 4. As for your question regarding load: Its either me or my wife and I. I do not take my 4-month old in this car. Too scared to do so. Nothing in the trunk. 5. If I took my car to a non-lexus shop to check what the problem is, that would void my warranty. Why do I care? Its because I do not want Lexus to make a case that the car has been altered. BTW, on the day I went to the second dealer, I barely got 4 hours of sleep (see why below!). I went in at the time of the appointment and was asked to leave. The regional rep called the General Service Manager for "status" while I was still in the room! This is what I have been subject to. Should I not have reason to be upset about this whole thing? What do I want you all to do? I would be grateful if you could support me in my cause. My cause for doing the right thing. For Lexus to own up to their issues. Could each of you that see this thread write an email to the customer satisfaction (I have a direct email) telling him that what they are doing is very unprofessional? Apart from this vehicle, I also have a RAV4 and have no complaints. Both my wife and I have respectable jobs and by god's grace are doing well and have no other hidden agenda to return this car. I had a newborn in July and she takes a serious amount of time from me. Despite this, I find the time to fight this issue. Please HELP! That's all I ask for.

SW03ES, you do not know me personally and so I do not think its appropriate of you to judge me based on my comments here. I have had a very good experience with all the service managers. I have helped one purchase a laptop for a great price. I've helped another with a number of Photoshop tips and even offered to give him the books that I use. So like I said again, there is no issue with personality here. The entire problem is issue based. The fact that the field rep told me one thing on my face and wrote it up differently altogether. The problem really started after this point. Imagine this guy forcing the second dealership to not look at my car despite the fact that the HQ asked them to. The third dealership is blatantly lying about the problem. You saw that for yourself in the service record that I attached. When these kinds of things happen, I am forced to look for legal options. Not that I want to pursue legal methods but that's what these people have pushed me to do. You think one of these dealerships is really going to tell me what the problem really is. I doubt that. It has nothing to do with my nature but rather with their ego now. One dealership has concealed an issue (or have screwed something up at the time of repair) and the other dealers are covering it up. Like I have previously stated, the problem is not with my alignment anymore but something more internal (steering suspension). Like SKPerformance states, it could be something else. How else do you explain the fact that the car was okay after the first alignment only for it go for a toss after 2 weeks. Fixed again, gone again after 2 more weeks. The car pulls to the right when I brake and decelerate (regardless of the crown!). I've seen threads on this forum where dealers have hit another car and almost got away with it. How about the scratches on your car during a car wash? The fact is that dealers do make mistakes and my opinion is that they did something internal and hoped to get away with it. Only they are meeting with some stiff resistance in me. Does that make me the bad guy simply because I put up against a dealership and eventually an organization? Like you said, I would love to write good things. Believe me when I say this, I personally go and speak to the store manager when someone goes out of their way to help me. I write a number of positive reviews and those heavily outweigh the negative reviews I write. All I want is my money back given my bad experiences. Why am I afraid to exchange the car? Do I believe that its going to be bad too? Maybe at the corner of my heart. The bigger problem is that I do not have a dealership to get my car for even scheduled maintenance anymore. Thats why I want my money back. Is that too much to ask? I earn my money after a hard days' work. I do not cheat anyone nor do I step on anyone's foot to move up in my company. So whats wrong with expecting a manufacturer to exhibit the same ethics?

No, I would buy another without even considering it. Do all of us a favor and just get rid of the car. Steve, I agree with you for the first time. I do want to get rid of the car. All I am asking for is my money back! Its people like you who Lexus and similar companies so depend upon. Defend them regardless of their screwups because you refuse to understand issues. All I have been stating until now ARE FACTS. All you have been stating until now are your perceptions. I believe there is a difference between being objective and not. You for all your money's worth can never be objective. What I attached with my post is a FACT. The fact that the dealer LIED and at the behest of Lexus. Whatever they have done is a BREACH OF WARRANTY. Alas, you think that alignment is NOT covered under warranty and I cannot with all my objectivity get the fact that it is covered under warranty (their book says so, not my interpretation) into your brain. Also, whatever happened to your "I am done with this thread". I am not posting this for your view nor am I trying to prove a point to YOU. I live by extremely strong ethical principles and stand up against what I deem is wrong. Do you have a problem? If so, so be it. This is for the general public. I want them to know how lousy Lexus is when it comes to fixing issues and worse yet covering them up.

Check this out guys! The levels to which the a dealership will stoop to! I took it to a third dealership who agreed to look at my car. They initially said they would have to charge me for the alignment. Eventually they called back (it was always their General Service Manager btw!) and said they wanted me back as a customer and decided to do it free. Funnily enough, the tech says he drove the car for 4 miles on smooth road and experienced NO drift. However, their own records (see attachment) show that the car was never driven (IN and OUT mileage are the same). So unless they pulled the odometer out (which is illegal) I am not sure how they did it. On top of this, I test drove the car with the General Service Manager and the car exhibited no change (although they claim that they fixed the alignment which in their opinion was off and my previous car dealer had done a BAD job according to them). I showed them how the car drifted and the General Service Manager attributed that to the "road crown". We then test drove a loaner and that car drove perfectly fine (even though the General Service Manager refuted it!). This is from Lexus supposed to be the most reliable car. I guess this is how they do it, be in denial with all their problems. I am also uploading the dealer version on the warranty. This version is different from the ones we get. It states that the alignment and wheel balancing is covered for 12mos/20000 miles ONCE. Our warranties do not state a numerical limit. When asked, they say the dealer version always supersedes. Since when? These guys either do not know the Magnuson-Moss law or they take advantage of unaware customers. All I have to say about Lexus is CHEAP! Would you still consider buying one? LexusWarrantyDealerVersion.PDF

My suggestions: 1. Try another phone and see if the problem persists. I work with a number of trial phones with a standard bluetooth stack and they still fail me miserably (some of the issues have to do with handshake). 2. It could be the noise cancellation algorithm. Again I have worked on these algorithms and doubt its that because it would then manifest in a number of other similar vehicles. 3. Ensure that you turn down the volume of the speaker. Typically echo-cancellation algorithm kicks in when the speaker is too loud and that can mute your voice as well. 4. As AZ08LexusES mentioned, make sure there isn't much wind/road noise. To test this, make a call from a relatively quite place (such as your garage) and see if the other party still has issues hearing you. 5. If the issue persists after your speaker volume is reasonably low and you are stationary in a quite place with multiple (certified) phones then I would take it to the dealer to have it fixed. If the phone call works as expected under these conditions, then the problem is not with bluetooth protocol. I have had wierd issues where static plays havoc when I hold my phone in my hand and have heard complains that the person on the other end could not hear a word of what I had to say (My current phone is a KRZR and still does that). Several manufacturers have traded off good static shielding for super-cool design. Where are you experiencing this problem? In the city, lightly loaded highways or all the time? Just a few thoughts to get you started.

Steve, I wish you can keep your comments non-personal. All my comments were ONLY targeted at Lexus as a corporation. I could easily post the private comments I got from 3 unique individuals about you with regards to your inaccurate statements in my other thread (One standing example being how dealers are just being courteous about alignment and that Lexus does not warrant alignment/wheel balancing even after typing from the book verbatim!!!!!). But I guess I will not stoop to that level. I can prove each issue I had with my car (excepting the trans flare and the GPS not re-calculating the route which happen a lot less sporadically). The fact that an attorney is willing to take up my case says much about my issues. My statements were based purely on my experience and others in general with regards to their 2007 ES350's in the NHTSA website. Knowing you, and how lowly you think of everyone that has a different opinion than you do, I am not surprised how you comment!!! Sorry, I did not want to get personal but you forced me to. I stand up for what is right and present facts the way they are. If you have a problem with it, I suggest you just keep your thoughts to yourself! Well, knowing how you will react to this..., rest assured, I will not respond to your rant/inaccurate statements :) With regards to Hyundai (sorry for jumping topics here), my observation (again based on data) has been that its the most improved brand in the last ten years (ways to go before theycan strongly compete against Honda/Nissan and hopefully Toyota!). Harish

I had my sat radio installed inside my car beside the back brake light and reception is fine. no issues and no one can see it. I still own some Honda products and after 100,000+ km, they still feel tight. i can start to feel my ES loosing up after 30,000km which ive not experienced with my Honda's Lexus is way better quality materials inside. The seats, dash, pretty much everything out does Honda or Acura. Power Plants and tranny's however is a toss up. I have a 5 year old Honda van that tracks straight as an arrow and never any issues. i have to "drive" my lexus. The honda's and Acura let you feel road which does just that, "feel" the road. i recently hit a gopher and i didnt feel a thing in my ES. The honda's would have told me if i hit a male or female (rougher ride). so, that being said, the threads say it all. You want feel or handling, buy something else. You want qaulity of materials inside and out, buy a lexus. Power plants and tranny's, my experience with Honda's and acura's has been "never an issue". my year old ES just got a new tranny because i was tired of that damn flare. i dont think the tranny would have broke down however, i paid for something to work correctly, i want it too!!! would i buy another?? let you know in 4 years when i replace this one. My other car (my wifes) however i think will always be a Honda or Acura. been 12 years total of worry free driving and trade in's have made them the least expensive cars ive ever owned (even out beating my used cars from my younger days) My advise, buy one. you wont hate it. chances are you will love it like most of us do. I really wish i truely knew what the best car in this class for "ME" is. im hoping its the one im driving. Cheer!! Hello, Did you happen to read my thread on an issue that sounds similar to yours. I have been having problems since my third "attempt" at aligning the car and since have experienced a lot of "torque steer" (per the Field tech, not me) etc. Any thoughts? I agree that the workmanship inside of the car is great whereas they really screwed up on under-the-hood components such as the transmission and and other steering components.

Please point to any proof that any Lexus transmission ever caused any "sudden acceleration" that ever put any customer's life on the line. Then please show how this happens with the transmission "on every car," therefore facilitating the clever floor mat cover-up. This type of action by an automobile manufacturer would be a stupid and possibly catastrophic liability if proven by even one customer. I can understand frustrations that can come from feeling that an isolated dealer has not taken care of problems properly. But it's a huge leap to accuse Lexus and their dealers of felony criminal actions (willful manslaughter) on a public forum over what you consider poor customer care. Very good question. I like objective questions. You also bring some extremely valid points about liability. My suggestion to you is to take a look at all customer complaints for the 07 ES350 on the NHTSA website (and one of the 08s as well). Customer's have complained. Some have said that they had the new all-weather mats that were appropriately installed, some did not have them on in the first place. A police report has been filed by one regarding the same. The only thing I do not have is the driver record of the parties concerned and unfortunately have no way of getting those :). While I consider myself to be fortunate enough that something like that has not happened, my point was to throw a note of caution. Has this issue been "proven", NO! Read what the dealerships had to say about the problem as well when you are at it. My own problems with the steering has been determined as "Works as designed" as well where each person representing Lexus was reporting an independent contradicting story. I mentioned it myself, I feel cheated by Lexus (not just the dealerships) for how they dealt with my case (you can read the details in my other thread) but thats what prompted me to checkout all the reported complaints. Is there an emotional angle to what I have to say, yes. Am I being objective at the same time, I think so!

Darren, It was that problem. But lately I have been having issues with my steering. Car pulls a lot on acceleration, deceleration and braking. I do not think its alignment or tires. Two independent sources (dealer and a alignment shop) have determined that the tires are okay. The alignment shop determined that the alignment should not cause the vehicle to pull (although its front too is off causing the steering to be crooked). Thanks for bringing it up though. Steve, If thats what you meant, thanks :)

Different tires. The tires on your Passat were probably MXV4+, the tires on your ES are MXV4 S8, the S8s seem to be shorter lived. The tires on your Passat may have been H rated too, the ones on your Lexus are V rated. Michelin has already replaced the S8s with the Primacy MXV4 tire, so soon after their launch I'm sure treadlife is a reason why. People have been complaining about tire wear on these cars forever, they ship with soft rubber quiet tires which are a bummer for tire life. Has nothing to do with the car. Just went to NHTSA's website to view the number of issues against the 07 ES350 and the 08. 08's have 3 and 07's have 30 times as many. The one that scared me was about the "automatic" acceleration (this is not related to the all-weather mats although the dealers insist so or say they were no "codes" that indicated mal-function!). General belief now is the fact that 07 (and afar less number of 08s) have a problem that Lexus chose to hide under the all-weather mat saga. I went back and checked ES models from different years and do not see as many issues (even first-year models). It seems like Toyota really dropped the ball on this one. I'm sorry, I don't understand what you are saying. Are you saying that for 08's there were 3 complaints and the 07's had 90 about the automatic acceleration? And all 93 of these were not an issue with all-weather matts although the dealer denied it by saying that there was no error code in the cars system? I dont think I made myself very clear. Sorry about that :). There are a number of instances that point to the "sudden acceleration" for year 2007. My concern were about certain of them specifically stating that they either had the new all-weather mats or did not have one in their cars. Somehow it tells me that Lexus determined that it was far cheaper to blame the all-weather mats and replace them (and put the customer's life on the line) than replacing the transmission on every car. What I meant to say was that the 2008's do not have as many such complains as 2007's do. It is possible that I am taking my sample a little too soon on the 2008 and should probably wait for another year to see if they generate the same number of issues. The fundamental point I was trying to make though is that Lexus have taken short-cuts with this vehicle. I am stating facts as much as possible here but I have been severely letdown by Lexus and their dealerships (read my other thread regarding the same) and thats probably contributing a little (just a little) to my rant here :)

Different tires. The tires on your Passat were probably MXV4+, the tires on your ES are MXV4 S8, the S8s seem to be shorter lived. The tires on your Passat may have been H rated too, the ones on your Lexus are V rated. Michelin has already replaced the S8s with the Primacy MXV4 tire, so soon after their launch I'm sure treadlife is a reason why. People have been complaining about tire wear on these cars forever, they ship with soft rubber quiet tires which are a bummer for tire life. Has nothing to do with the car. Just went to NHTSA's website to view the number of issues against the 07 ES350 and the 08. 08's have 3 and 07's have 30 times as many. The one that scared me was about the "automatic" acceleration (this is not related to the all-weather mats although the dealers insist so or say they were no "codes" that indicated mal-function!). General belief now is the fact that 07 (and afar less number of 08s) have a problem that Lexus chose to hide under the all-weather mat saga. I went back and checked ES models from different years and do not see as many issues (even first-year models). It seems like Toyota really dropped the ball on this one.

Hmm.. seems like I lost my grasp of english altogether eh! I'd not answered simply because I chose not to divulge too many details because its all in a premature state. Not that I want to hide it, but just think its too early. As for your "seems wierd" comment... let me just say that I am not surprised that its coming from you! Simply because you do not understand what the problem does not make it a non-issue.

My understanding (I do not understand legal terms very well yet!) is that they are going to send a letter to Lexus on my behalf. Its not a lawsuit. Depending on the outcome (which I understand typically takes 6-8 weeks), the attorney will advice appropriately.

Steve, I am not sure you got the point. The problem is NOT with alignment alone (front toe and steer ahead is just one issue). There are several other issues: Given that that thrust angle with well within spec (reads 0.03), the car should drive straight went set straight (regardless of how crooked the steering is) on a straight road regardless of the crown (I am talking about nominal crown for water to seep to the gutter). The car does NOT do that. I can visually see the steering turn itself to the "crown" which tells me that the steering is "loose". The car exhibits tremendous pull (I personally do not think its torque steer) when accelerating, decelerating or braking. All these cannot be attributed to alignment. If I had to get these issues fixed, it would cost me thousands of dollars for a car that is under warranty for 4yrs/50,000 miles for these kinds of issues. Why shud I pay that out of my pocket. The reason I had the shop only check the alignment was to get a second opinion to make a case for arbitration strong. If I had it fixed, it would weaken my case significantly. Again, I repeat, its not a $150 issue (even if it was I refuse to pay that out of my pocket). Its not an alignment issue. Its about much more than that and if you have some other suggestion that me getting my alignment done at the shop, please let me know :) Harish Making a case for arbitration or a lawsuit is well and good. But I believe there are several lawsuits (perhaps more) already against Lexus. Lexus and the dealerships are masters at avoiding loss of profit. It's been my experience that when there is an issue with a customer and unsatisfactory results in the work performed (under warranty or not), the higher up the issue goes (escalating to the GM, then to Lexus HQ, etc), the more resistance and defiant the dealership seems to get. So you are probably, at this point, (as Steve also commented) NOT going to get a favorable resolution from the dealership or Lexus. In the meantime, you might want to get your car completely checked out and made right, by an independent shop - whatever the cost to you. Documenting all actions and out of pocket costs should be sufficient to compile your data for a potential lawsuit, if you go that route - so take a number and get in line. Normal torque steer and "tremendous pull" are two different things, although they could be related somehow. Tremendous pull could also have nothing to do with the steering system, it could be brakes, wheel bearings, or axles. In any case, the car needs to be completely checked out and all repairs made and documented - by a qualified repair shop. If you have given Lexus and the dealership every opportunity to fix the car under warranty, and it's still not right or SAFE, then you have every right to get it fixed and send Lexus the bill. Whether they pay it wil be another issue. If you have not already done so, you might also confer with a "Lemon Law" type attorney. I'm curious how this story will end... so please keep us informed. That's just my worthless opinion. B) Randy, I disagree with the fact that this is worthless opinion! You make some extremely valid points. I have already spoken to a lemon law attorney and he is willing to take it up on a contingency basis. He has already advised me to NOT get the vehicle fixed unless I think its unsafe. As you know about lawyers, they would not touch a case unless they think there is something real about the issue (Thats just the nature of their profession for the amount of time they have to toil with a case, I am not blaming them!), it gives me more confidence in the fact that I can have this car either rectified or replaced or refunded. I will be speaking to the attorney again today.

When the time came to trade my 97' 5 series BMW, I decided to try Lexus quality. Consumer Reports ranked the 07 ES350 as the best. I bought the ES350 and the very next issue of Consumer Reports rated the car as only average. My wife drives an 06' BMW 3 series and our personal experiences indicate that the Lexus is not as reliable. If I hadn't been misled by Consumer Reports and other media, I would have gotten another 5 series BMW. This attitude is partly because of poor service from my Lexus dealer. Based on my personal experience and a number of other thoughts here... and JD Power's own website that compares 07 to 08, I think the '07 ES350 is of inferior build quality. I think Lexus knows that but are unwilling to accept it because it would cost them waaaay too much to fix their problems with 07. Typical problems I have heard of ranges everywhere from poor steering and transmission flares (me and the dealership tells me it works as designed!), trans flares that others have reported, parking assist issues, brake pad wear and OEM tire wear (my MXV4 gave me 45000 miles on my VW Passat and it does not provide anything close to that on Lexus) and rattle noise from the moonroof and every other part of the car. Like so many have said, it is not a good idea to buy a first year model of a new design and Lexus, being the one with an eye on quality, should have done better to break that jinx.

Steve, I am not sure you got the point. The problem is NOT with alignment alone (front toe and steer ahead is just one issue). There are several other issues: Given that that thrust angle with well within spec (reads 0.03), the car should drive straight went set straight (regardless of how crooked the steering is) on a straight road regardless of the crown (I am talking about nominal crown for water to seep to the gutter). The car does NOT do that. I can visually see the steering turn itself to the "crown" which tells me that the steering is "loose". The car exhibits tremendous pull (I personally do not think its torque steer) when accelerating, decelerating or braking. All these cannot be attributed to alignment. If I had to get these issues fixed, it would cost me thousands of dollars for a car that is under warranty for 4yrs/50,000 miles for these kinds of issues. Why shud I pay that out of my pocket. The reason I had the shop only check the alignment was to get a second opinion to make a case for arbitration strong. If I had it fixed, it would weaken my case significantly. Again, I repeat, its not a $150 issue (even if it was I refuse to pay that out of my pocket). Its not an alignment issue. Its about much more than that and if you have some other suggestion that me getting my alignment done at the shop, please let me know :) Harish

Steve, I can check the notes again regarding the PSI. I did not have the independent mechanic adjust the alignment, he just checked it. The whole problem with the dealer is that the field tech is above him and he chooses not do to something that would *BLEEP* the field tech off regardless of what the HQ says. This beats me but thats what he said (that if the field tech has said everything works as designed and they are not above him). Then my problem is that the field tech did not communicate that to me. They went and adjusted the preload on the steering in the name of me saying that the steering wheel was loose (all I said was that the car does not feel the way it did when I first bought it). So it beats me why they adjusted the preload if everything worked per design. They are all just giving me a run-around instead of fixing the car. This is the reason I believe that there is something wrong that they choose not to acknowledge because the car has been in the shop three times already. Every tech thats seen the alignment readings has said that either its wrong and was fixed improperly or that they did not tighted the nuts and bolts enough that has caused more problems.

Steve, You made some valid points about tire pressure. I checked up they were around 31 on all the tires. The steering is crooked and as I said has to do with the toe not being adjusted correctly the third time. It probably is a one off issue but the way its being dealt with is what I have a problem with. As regards to the second dealer, if you read my first post, you would be bemused! I called the Lexus HQ on a Friday and spoke to them. They called me back on Tuesday (which is normal) and agreed to get a second opinion and specifically asked me to call a person. I was also assured that they would communicate it to the specific person (who, it turns out is the General service manager of the dealership). I called the dealership, asked for this person and specifically and left him a message. Next day one of his associates calls me to setup an appointment. The appointment was on Friday. I went in on Friday, dropped off my car and asked to take a test drive with one of their service technicians. I was asked to wait until Don (the contact person) came to the office at 8AM. I was called in at 8:15 and told to take my car back despite me telling them that HQ had asked me to come there for a second opinion. The guy simply refuted the fact that HQ had called (he asked me if it was Aaron btw and then said no one had called). He also refuted the fact that I had called. When I called Lexus HQ and the same person spoke to me he said he'd left a voicemail and also speaks to this Manager on a daily-basis when queried as to how the manager knew his name. The whole issue smelt fishy after that. The only option I was given after that was to go to arbitration and they refused to diagnose my car because everything was "per design". I definitely want to give everyone the benefit of doubt but for someone to say that I'd not called and forced myself into the dealership when I have the call log to show that I'd called and they had called me back is beyond suspicion. Moreover, the story at the dealership and the HQ do not corroborate very well. Harish

Steve, My apologies first if you felt I made a condescending remark about you. My point was that everything technically is a wear-n-tear item but the question is generally about how soon and that Lexus (or the dealership) is not doing us a service. Its their job and its been paid for. My relationship with the service managers at the first dealership has been very cordial (have helped one guy even get a great deal on a laptop). My issue is with the general service manager who was contradicting himself left, right and center. My problem also is with the field tech that admitted that my car was drifting after we compared it to a 2008 ES350. He even said that my car (all Lexuses for that matter) was "stiff" when we first buy them and then "loosen" up. Then in the service record he wrote that I'd said that the car steering felt "loose"! All I told them was that the car did not feel the way it did when I first bought it when it was a pleasure to drive it. They added a preload to my steering and said I'd asked for it (which is not true). My problem with the second dealership is that they REFUSED to diagnose my car despite the Lexus headquarters instructing them to do so. They said that they had not even received a call from them or me. This is the kind of cheap tactics and deceptive practice that I am against and do not believe that its wrong. The problem here is that Lexus is in complete denial of a problem. As I mentioned, the Alignment is off, but thats not the reason the car is exhibiting torque steer. Thats not the reason why the car's steering is obviously turning after its straightened for the crown (which my other car does not and is a RAV4). Thats not the reason why there is a brake drag (something that is supposed to be compensated for). Problem is, they refuse to look at my car saying "everything is per design". The problem with my steering was not a "one fine day" issue. It, in my opinion, has deteriorated after the 2nd and 3rd alignment. The fact that they added a preload has compounded the problem. I do not remember the tire pressure off the top of my head but did not stand out as one of the issues. I have Michelin MXV4 tires which I have been told is the best tire for this car.

I agree, and Lexus has done plenty of stuff for me for free over the years that wasn't their fault, including alignments. They do however know when they have a customer who cannot be satisfied, and at some point they will stop trying. To the dealer they've re-aligned the car and its within specs so to them its no problem, they don't realize they do crappy alignments! Me, when I deal with the dealer I am always calm, always very reasonable, and I never have any problems at all. I have a sneaking suspicion this guy comes across as someone who cannot be satisfied with his quoting warranty law and insisting alignments aren't wear and tear items, demanding that other dealers repair work from other dealers...they think he's a yahoo and they're not going to go out of their way to help him. Again, $150 and its fixed or you can continue to waste your time, energy, and frustration to make them do "whats right". Life's too short for that IMHO. Steve, I concede. Its impossible to make you understand! I do not care what the dealers thinks about me and do not need a character certificate from them either! I am an extremely principled person that just expects to have things done the right way. If after writing down verbatim what the warranty book says and you think that the dealer is doing me a great service, then I concede! I have looked at all your other posts and it looks like you do not like any kind of bashing of either Lexus or their dealerships! I wonder why!!! Anyways, for the rest of you that understand the problem, here is what happened. I took the car to Thalmann's Alignment in the chicago area based on the website (www.gsp9700.com) and other positive reviews I had read for them. Turned out to be a small store that specializes in alignments and he has been doing this for 30+ years! It was a Hunter DSP400 machine and not a 600. After setting the steering straight and doing the measurements, he told me that the Thrust angle was within range but the front toe was off and that was the reason for the crookedness of the steering. The caster values came out to be different from the readings that I have got from Lexus dealerships as well. He could, unfortunately, not check the other two problems I had. One with the steering not staying put in place when I drive on a lane that slopes to the left (he could not check it unless he did a invasive test) and the brakes application that was causing the car to veer off. For the first he thinks that the rack-n-pinion is too sensitive and for the other he thinks that it might well be the electronics not firing correctly. My suspicion turned out to be right here. While he believes he can fix the steering crookedness, he does not think the other issues such as Torque steer, steering "jump" and brakes can be fixed by alignment. Well I guess Steve is going to tell me now that Steering is a wear-n-tear item and is not covered under warranty either :). Or maybe this whole 48mos/50000 mile warranty is a dream that I just had :D and the dealers are nice about fixing issues that really should be paid for by the owner at another store such as Midas or NTB or wherever!

Sorry... this is utter BS!! Please explain which "road" and which "crown" that the alignment shop sets the alignment for!!!!?? Or.. .show me ANY factory wheel alignment specifications that include "crown of the road" adjustments!! They may exist, but I've never seen one. Thats why I said it was "sort of" true. Some shops dial in a little bit of adjustment and chock it up to "the crown of the road". The answer is no factory specs call for it...including Lexus. But that doesn't mean the dealer isn't dialing it in. Not to beat a dead horse, but this "crown of the road" crap has been perpetuated by some pin head alignment mechanics for probably decades..... when they mis-align your vehicle and you take it back because it's pulling left or right and not tracking straight, the first thing the pin head mechanic says is "Well, I adjusted it for the "crown of the road"!! It's obviously SO illogical to presume that any wheel alignment shop has the ability to "dial in" anything to compensate or adjust or otherwise even to begin to understand what the steering will do when they don't have a clue what road or what crown they would be dialing in for!! I drive 1,000 to 1,500 miles a week on MANY roads and highways --- all with different road texture, all presumably with different "crowns". Some times I drive in the center lane riding the "crown", some times I drive in the left lane, some times I drive in the right lane - how much "dialing in" does the pin head alignment mechanic make for me? As far as an alignment being a wear & tear issue - steering components do wear and vehicles ride heights do settle some causing alignment issues. But, in my 40+ years of driving, a wheel alignment has NOT been a period maintenance or requirement. Yes, I've had wheel alignments, but not with every set of new tires. From the hundreds of posts on Lexus service issues, it appears one can make some assumptions -- 1) some Lexus dealers are not going to admit they screwed up, 2) they aren't going to fix anything they can get away with NOT fixing, and 3) just because they are Lexus, doesn't mean their mechanics are any better than a Chevy mechanic. I would trust the mechanic at my local reputable specialty shop over ANY Lexus dealer mechanic. As far as Lexus "concealing" a problem, you bet they will. Concealing a problem almost cost Audi their entire company back in the 70's. And, I'll bet Chevy did their best to conceal the fact that they had to recall 10,000,000 of their cars and truck in 2004 in North America. Oh, did Ford conceal their exploding gas tanks? How about Firestone's fameous tires? Or the drug companies - naaaahhh, they wouldn't conceal anything from the public would they??? I do agree that if you take your car into a very qualified and reputable alignment/chassis shop they will be able to tell you exactly what's wrong with it, and most likely make it track straight, and the $150 alignment performed by a qualified alignment shop will most likely fix his problem. That's just my worthless opinion :D Randy, I agree with you. I am going to take my car to an alignment shop in our area for a second opinion. This guy has been around for 30+ yrs and am sure he knows what he's talking about. At the same time, whatever he finds (and he is getting paid for a second opinion) will possibly be something that I will agree to bcos he has nothing at stake here to to lie to me. One of my other goals was to throw some light on wear-n-tear items because it seems to be the most misunderstood word in the automobile industry. EVERY item that we buy is a wear-n-tear item. Even a flash drive with no moving parts is rated for "x" reads and "y" writes but is warranted for a lifetime. Can a manufacturer get away without replacing a bad flash drive after 6 yrs simply because its a wear-n-tear item (the fact that we might not have receipt for it is a different story and the one they are banking on!)? NOPE! My advise to everyone here is when the dealer say "Oh its not covered... its a wear and tear item..." ask them what the rated lifetime is. It should be documented. I have had my VW dealer replace the brake-pad free of charge when they wore out a little too prematurely. Believe me, manufacturers are NOT making a loss by obliging! They know all these numbers and when they issue a warranty for a product, its based on the the lower end of the statistic that I was talking about in my previous post! Harish

Sorry... this is utter BS!! Please explain which "road" and which "crown" that the alignment shop sets the alignment for!!!!?? Or.. .show me ANY factory wheel alignment specifications that include "crown of the road" adjustments!! They may exist, but I've never seen one. Thats why I said it was "sort of" true. Some shops dial in a little bit of adjustment and chock it up to "the crown of the road". The answer is no factory specs call for it...including Lexus. But that doesn't mean the dealer isn't dialing it in. Alignment IS a wear and tear item, ask any mechanic. What the Lexus book is saying is that they will cover one alignment for a customer having issues in the first 12 months or 20k miles. Its a courtesy, a customer service gesture. They'll also rebalance wheels, etc. HERE IS QUOTING FROM THE LEXUS WARRANTY BOOK: COVERAGE IS FOR 48 MONTHS OR 50,000 MILES, WHICHEVER OCCURS FIRST WITH THE EXCEPTION OF WHEEL ALIGNMENT AND WHEEL BALANCING, WHICH ARE COVERED FOR 12 MONTHS OR 20,000 MILES, WHICHEVER OCCURS FIST. So would you agree then that the engine is also wear-n-tear item because its going moving parts in it? It requires a tune-up (200K+/-). So if Lexus says tomorrow that an engine failure would not be covered because its a wear-n-tear item, would you not be upset? ALIGNMENT is a set of nuts and bolts that hold the suspension, wheels and steering together and sure it will wear over time (potholes expedite it) but there is a difference between NORMAL wear and ABNORMAL wear. Would you agree if your bulb went out every 2 months and pay for it simply because its a wear-n-tear item when the rating for it is about 2years? Would you agree if you have to change your brake pads under normal use (not racing) every other month because it is considered a wear-n-tear item? Every item has a mean and variance associated that specifies the life of the product with a 99.999% probability. When a product fails well before these limits then there is a problem, probably even with some other part that's manifesting itself. In the case of the light bulb it might be an electrical malfunction. In the case of alignment it could well be some electonics/software not doing what they are supposed to do. Its the job of these service mechanics to find the root-cause to the problem, not fix the manifestation. Thats what a good service engineer would do. Going back to the original point, if its mentioned in the warranty book, its the bible that the manufacturer has to go by. If he prints a different spin of it for the dealer, then thats a problem that the manufacturer has to resolve. Alignment WILL come out over time and the car will need to be re-aligned, hence it being a wear and tear item. You can say its not all you want, but it is. Ask any mechanic. You can also quote warranty books and say they can't be ambiguous and thats fine, but we've told you what you should do to correct your situation, have an alignment done by someone who knows what they are doing, and its now up to you whether you want to do it or not. It sounds to me like you're more interested in "winning" in this little power struggle with the dealer than actually taking care of your issue, which is the poor alignment of the car. Like I said, if thats the case nobody here or anywhere else can help you. Steve, Its not about power struggle but rather about standing up for what is right. When Staples credited me with $200 more than what I was supposed to get when I returned a product, I promptly showed then the glitch and returned the money. So whats wrong with asking a manufacturer to stand up for his mistake? BTW, I do not think that its the alignment but rather something wrong with another part that I am being kept oblivious to in the name of "It works as designed". How many times have we heard it. The latest case being Honda where their accord's headlight behaving in a wierd way when the AC is turned on. Every customer is upset about it, especially the ones that took the climate control option. Honda says its by design. Do you buy it? Funnily enough they are enhancing their 2009 to not have that "feature". Why should consumers take such questionable behavior from manufacturers? $150 fixes the problem. - Sure, but why should it pinch my pocket?

Sorry... this is utter BS!! Please explain which "road" and which "crown" that the alignment shop sets the alignment for!!!!?? Or.. .show me ANY factory wheel alignment specifications that include "crown of the road" adjustments!! They may exist, but I've never seen one. I agree. I spoke to a Lexus expert (former Master Technician) and he has already slammed the readings stating they do not look right. Moreover, its the thrust angle that eventually counts. If the thrust angle is 0.00, then the car will drive straight without pulling on a flat road. Everything else such as caster and camber (which also contribute to the thrust angle) only affect the driving experience and tire wear. If the road slopes, all you have to do is adjust the steering to compensate (simple vector mathematics). As long as the steering will hold its position (the caster and the tightness of tie rods contribute to this) determine if the car can actually hold its line. This is precisely where I have a problem. Moreover without going into much details, my caster values have drifted all over the park (within range). I am surprised that the caster cannot be changed and takes a severe hit (in terms of numbers) only in the event of an accident varies by so much. To answer your question (this is for Steve) 1. sometimes the right solution is the longer solution. 2. alignment is NOT a wear-n-tear item per Lexus and they warrant it for 12mos/20,000 miles. Its in their warranty book. As I previously mentioned, written warranty cannot be ambiguous :) 3. Like I said, I took my car for an in-warranty service and do not see why after repeated failures, I should have to shell money out of my pocket to a problem that seemingly is more serious than a simple alignment issue.

Steve, Thanks for responding. I understand torque steer is a characteristic of a FWD vehicle and am not alien to the concept (now!). Torque steer occurs typically when you accelerate aggressively from a slow speed. It is heavily muted at steady speeds when mildly accelerating. The reason for this is because at lower RPM, the torque tends to be low. I am an engineer myself and have a very strong physics background :). Torque steer is a phenomenon where one side of the axle gets more power initially than the other axle causing one wheel to move forward faster than the other. Yes, this will cause the car to turn effectively. However, a lot of literature is available for how to reduce its effect for a number of years now. My problem here is the fact that this car, as you rightly said, was handling it pretty effectively until recently. Here is my problem with the second part about the dealership setting the alignment based on the road crown. The dealer states that the numbers they get out of the alignment machine is based on a flat road. The thrust angle, if set to 0.00, means the car will be perfectly straight on a flat road with no crown. If the alignment was set for a certain crown, then my steering wheel should be perfectly straight on lanes with the same crown profile. It is NOT. I have to hold the steering to my left all the time on a road with even a small crown to the right. On roads with a crown to the left, i have to hold the steering straight. Moreover, the preload has been adjusted which means I should be able to take my hand off after I straighten the car. As soon as I do that, the car will veer off to the left. The problem here is not with alignment but rather with the steering. As for alignment, its not true that alignment is a wear-n-tear item. Its not a belt or bulb for it to wear over time. These are tightened using a bolt. If this is considered a wear-n-tear item, so is the engine! Its got moving parts too. If you look in the warranty booklet, alignment and wheel balancing is covered for 12mos/20,000 miles. It is covered under warranty and hence another dealership technically does not have to take the tab for one dealership's crappy work. Moreover, the problem arose because of disparity between the warranty booklet given to me versus the warranty guidelines the dealerships have (this book is printed by Lexus). The dealer's book clearly states "ONE alignment/wheel balancing" procedure during 12mos/20000 miles. My warranty booklet does not mention a numerical limit. Moreover, cars pulling to one side is a documented TSIB and if you look in there, it does not pose a numerical limit on the warranty. I see no reason to spend money out of my pocket for the dealers mistake and Lexus's printing error! Actually, if you read Magnuson-Moss law, its clearly stated that the warranty cannot be ambiguous. Moreover, the fact that the second dealer refused to diagnose my car on the pretext of the guidelines that he had, in my opinion, is a breach of warranty (by lexus, not the dealer).