I did testdrive the Camry and Avalon when I was car shopping, and compared them to the ES. The rides are different, but I must say the last time I drove a Camry, it didn't feel as good as it does now. Regarding a "Toyota salespeople will tell customers the Camry and the ES are the same car" I got a similar answer from the Lexus dealership. I asked how similar the two are, and one of them said that they're very much the same. Another salesman, who I bought the car from, said that the engines use the same block, but are built diffently in specs (i.e. diff. pistons, timing, etc. overall better fuel economy and performance) and not to mention the obvious exterior appearance. Lexus of Bellevue should educate all of the salesppl. so at least they get one straight answer. Again, that was my individual experience, and I'm sure it varies all around. Anyways, I'm happy with the ES, and the dealership seems a lot more customer oriented than bmw of bellevue. Thanks for clearing up some of my questions, I'm sure my mom will be happy with it.