motowpk

Regarding when and where the damage happened, we know when and where the damage happened with essentially absolute certainty. As described in a previous post, at the stop light at the end of the exit ramp from the interstate the driver of the car stopped next to our RX450h caught the attention of the front seat passenger in our car and told them they saw liquid leaking under our car. I know from inspecting the expansion tank level subsequently that the amount of coolant that does leak is quite limited, either due to the heat exchanger coolant valve being closed, how the coolant supply is connected to the system or some combination of the two, so that the damage must have happened within a very short time of it first being observed at the end of the exit ramp since the amount of liquid that was lost was small enough that it would have been exhausted within a few minutes at most. This places the damage having occur on the interstate - not offroad. As far as it not being heard, there is certainly some ambient noise traveling at 65 mph on an interstate with vehicles in adjacent lanes, but given that the RX450h is a quiet vehicle the noise of the impact must still have been limited for neither the driver or the passenger to have noticed it. I have also noted that the magnitude of the impact was such that while there were abrasion marks on the body of the heat exchanger, it was not deformed at all, indicating the coolant tube and actuator are not as robust as the heat exchanger (and by extension the catalytic convertor or muffler whose bodies appear of similar weight as the heat exchanger). As far as the protection or exposure of the heat exchanger actuator, the photos speak for themselves. As mentioned before, beyond the question of what protection Lexus should have provided for this component there is the issue of making a replacement heat exchanger available only as an assembly running from the catalytic converter through the muffler. And, as again previously mentioned, this same assembly and replacement cost would be incurred if you needed to replace the muffler or catalytic converter on your RX450h. That in conjunction with Lexus' pricing level of this assembly makes this an excessively expensive risk to something that lives under the car. Yes, I know it is an expensive car and one should anticipate maintenance and repairs to be relatively expensive, the replacement for the RX450h is in the same category in this regard (a BMW). Even with an expensive car there is consideration of value and for a muffler replacement, as an example, to cost $5300 is not reasonable value. And finally, also as previously mentioned, my posting this experience is not to vent, I'm done with the vehicle, but to alert other owners of this potential risk.

After reading your post, I got under mine and compared with a photo I just took. I just don't see how a rock (or anything else) big enough to do that kind of damage got that far under the car and you didn't see it. It appears between your underside and mine that you've been off road with it and may have drug it over a large rock or obsticle. I have 42,000 miles on mine and it looks nothing like yours for wear. Also if you have read the manual it specifically states NOT to take the 450h off road even if it's AWD. It's not an offroad vehicle. If in fact you did, then you accepted what ever danger you might incur. I'm not saying you did, it just appears that you may have. The vehicle has never been taken off road. As far as something having 'gotten that far under the car' without seeing it, neither the driver nor the passenger (who also has 20+ years of driving experience) saw anything, leading to the conclusion that a rock (or similar hard object) was kicked into their path by another vehicle so that it wasn't something lying in their path with an opportunity to avoid it. Also, at 65 mph (the normal speed on the highway they were traveling), it wouldn't take a particularly big rock to have sufficient momentum to cause this damage. One of my observations is just how much less robust the coolant tube and actuator are compared to, say, the heat exchanger body or catalytic converter or muffler. To me it's one of the reasons Lexus should have fitted a guard to protect these components in an area with inherently high risk of impact in normal operation. As far as yours looking nothing like ours for 'wear', I'm not sure what you're referring to, but if it's the abrasion marks on the heat exchanger (in my first photo), that's not wear, but clearly from the impact that caused the damage. The other marks one may think are 'wear' are coolant discharged from the broken cooling line that then dried on the underside of the vehicle. Aside from the immediate area of damage there was no damage or, for that matter, obvious signs of wear anywhere else under the vehicle. Again, to summarize, I see Lexus' failings here multiple. First, the coolant tube and actuator are located in an especially exposed fashion; see my last photo illustrating how far below the rest of the vehicle they are situated. Secondly, they are not as robust as other exhaust system components and, particularly in conjunction with where they decided to locate them, should have had some sort of guard to protect against the inevitable impacts that will occur during normal operation to the underside of the vehicle (indeed, other areas under the vehicle close by have guards). Then they fail to fit flanges before and after the heat exchanger and make available a replacement heat exchanger only as part of an assembly that runs from the catalytic converter through the muffler. To my experience it is unheard of that you cannot purchase a muffler or catalytic converter, or in the case of this hybrid specific component, the heat exchanger, as an individual component. Finally, to add insult to injury, they price this assembly at $4700. You can buy catalytic converters for other model Lexus' for $350 and less, so I can only understand the pricing of this assembly (roughly three times a catalytic converter) to be the result of Lexus being sole source for the assembly and charging whatever they feel the market will bear. As stated before, while my experience was with the hybrid specific heat exchanger, any owner would face the same situation and costs ($5300 with installation and taxes) to replace the muffler or catalytic converter. I am willing to bet that no one purchasing an X450h expects a replacement muffler will cost $5300. In conclusion, I find the design failure of this vehicle from the standpoint of vulnerability and serviceability, in conjunction with Lexus' replacement part and pricing practise, to be unacceptable and do not want to do business with Lexus any longer. We sold the RX450h immediately after having the repair completed and would not consider a Lexus vehicle in the future.

Good eye lemon but, yes, I'm sure the car wasn't being driver over a curb or anything other than the road. Besides what the driver told me, we have a good indication of when this happened. While stopped at the light at the end of the off ramp exiting the interstate a driver in the lane to right caught the driver and passenger's attention and said liquid was leaking. I inspected the vehicle just before it was loaded onto the tow truck and about 20 minutes of driving from the aforementioned notice from the other vehicle, and at that time there was plenty of coolant in the expansion tank and there was not coolant leaking from the damaged heat exchange and connecting line at that time. This confirms that the engine cooling circuit was not open and able to drain, due certainly to the valve that admits coolant to the heat exchanger being closed as the engine was at operating temperature (the point of the heat exchanger is to bring a cold engine up to temperature more quickly so coolant is only circulated to it when the engine is cold). Accordingly, the volume of liquid available to leak out is limited to the volume of the heat exchanger which is a small fraction of the engine cooling system. That places the time this damage occured almost certainly during the few miles the vehicle was on the interstate - there are no curbs to run over or off roading to be had then. As to the plant debris, it could have been attached to the rock (my assessment of what hit the heat exchanger) or just as likely the plant debris could have been picked up at some other time (plant material blows across roads regularly, of course). I recall some time ago noting how low the exhaust pipe goes as it passes under the rear differential since that can be easily seen from the rear of the vehical. I had not, however, ever noticed this actuator as you'd have to crouch down to see it, being under the front seats just to the right of centerline. When I did inspect I was shocked. It is clearly the lowest point on the car in this area and, indeed, provides noticealy less ground clearance than one would think by looking at the sides of the car. And, yes lemon, you're correct, it's not just damage from an impact, but this actuator and its connection to the valve is a linkage that looks ill suited to be in this environment. Again, my primary reason for posting this experience is that I'm sure that most or almost all RX450h owners have no idea how vulnerable this component is and certainly no idea it will cost $5300 to fix, not to mention that's the price you'll pay if you happen to need to replace the catalytic converter or muffler. As for me, as of today I am no longer an RX450h owner, having traded the vehicle in, this experience having soured me on the Lexus RX450h owner experience.

Another update - Repair completed last Thursday and wanted to share a couple of pictures of what it's supposed to look like. Work order refers to this as the 'gas control actuator', pictured below: The actuator is the horizontal cylinder mounted mid-length to a bracket connected to the heat exchanger body. On the left end of this cylinder you can see a rod that is connected to the valve, to the left, that controls engine coolant flow to the heat exchanger. Coolant in the tube on the right (passing under the exhaust pipe) travels through the right half of the actuator and to the heat exchanger (via a short connection hidden in this view by the body of the actuator). I expect this is much like the thermostat in the engine, whose actuator is immersed in the engine coolant and moves a valve disc according to that temperature thus controlling the coolant flow to the radiator and therefore the engine temperature. In this case the thermostatic element moves the valve that controls coolant flow through the heat exchanger. The second picture is taken nearly horizontal looking under the vehicle. As is apparent in this view, the actuator and associated coolant tube are the lowest point of the vehicle in this area, well below the catalytic converter, heat exchanger body and the muffler. Now this is certainly an opinion, but to my mind this is placed in an extremely vulnerable position and should be equipped with a reasonable guard to deflect the inevitable contact from debris - especially considering the outrageous $4600 cost of the replacement part, which as previously explained, is the entire exhaust system from the catalytic converter through the muffler (and as one can see in the first photo, there is certainly room for a couple of pairs of connecting flanges before and after the heat exchanger to have allowed this component to be replaced individually). A sad design aspect to an otherwise well engineered vehice, one that places any ower/operator at risk of expensive damage from normal usage.

lemon, 'insane' is a good description, though you'll appreciate I've thought of even more descriptive words. You're point about a beta tester are interesting and I do wonder if a skid plate has been added. It's obvious to me that the ~1" cooling tube and nozzle are not nearly as robust as the heat exchanger itself or the catalytic converter or muffler or the exhaust pipe (and I say this with the background of being a mechanical engineer whose experience includes having designed engine exhaust and cooling systems - not automotive, rather heavy diesel, but the principals are the same). While we have decades of experience as to the durabiity of catalytic converters, mufflers and exhaust pipes relative to the strikes they will inevitably take being located where they are, this cooling tube and exposed valve actuator simply does not measure up to that experience and some sort of protection not being provided is, in my view, a clear design flaw. This was most certainly caused by a rock, but, yes, I'm convinced a check of ice could do the same. RX400h, I have contacted Lexus customer service and as mentioned in my previous post that lead nowhere. Are you suggesting going up the ladder within customer service? I don't mind putting more time into this if I thought it had a chance of producing some results. Is there experience dealing with higher levels of Lexus customer service that indicate they may reverse a lower level decision instead of simply confirming it? I have filed a comprehensive damage claim with my insurance company, so the bulk of the cost will be borne by them, but that in no way reduces my opinion of Lexus' failures in this incident.

Update - Below is a photo (at least I hope it appears, this is the first time I've attempted including a photo in a post) showing the damage to the cooling tube that connects to the right side of the heat exchanger. The tube is crushed where it connects to the nozzle on the heat exchanger, which has been bent back with its connection to the heat exchanger housing cracked. The protruding valve actuator (that controls coolant flow to the heat exchanger), to the left in this view, was also damaged. Of note, while the housing of the heat exchanger is abraded (by what I think was a rock), it is not dented nor is there any damage to the exhaust pipe. In this view the catalytic converter is to the right and the muffler to the left. I find Lexus failing in the following areas: 1) The tube and valve actuator are clearly less robust than the heat exchanger itself or the nearby catalytic converter, muffler or the exhaust pipe. Being located in an are that will inherently be struck by debris in normal operation, a shield should be provided to protect these components (interestingly, shields are provided immediately ahead of this area to the left and right of the exhaust). 2) The cost of the repair is hugely increased by the fact that flanges have not been included in the exhaust pipe between the catalytic converter and the heat exchanger and between the heat exchanger and the muffler. Instead, Lexus has chosen to include flanges only ahead of the catalytic converter and after the muffler, and only offers the entire assembly consisting of these three components at a price of a bit less than $4600. (If they would sell only the heat exchanger there would be no problem having an exhaust system shop installing it - but just the heat exchanger is not available). 3) Lexus' pricing of this assembly, since they are the sole source, appears to be 'whatever the market will bear'. One can readily source, for example, a catalytic converter for a 2010 ES350 from a third party supplier for less than $350. Even if we accept that all three components (converter, heat exchanger, muffler) must be purchased and we multiply this price by three or so, it is still a fraction of the $4600 Lexus charges for this assembly, a pricing policy I can only describe as predatory. Along with about $100 for some hardware and coolant, $75 in 'disposal fees', about $300 in labor and a similar amount in sales tax, the total is a jaw dropping $5400. I have expressed the above to Lexus and proposed that as I only need to replace the heat exchanger and not the perfectly good catalytic converter and muffler they provide a 2/3 discount on the $4600 part. While expressing sympathy with the situation, they have declined this or any assistance. At this point my wife have been soured on the Lexus ownership experience and plan on selling our RX450h. The quantitative part of the decision is that there is no way to avoid this from reoccuring. It has nothing to do with a mistake by the driver or how the car is used (any more than a rock hitting the windshield does) so that continuing to drive our RX450h means exposing ourselves to the constant risk of a $5400 repair. The qualitative aspect of this is Lexus' making available replacements only as an assembly that consistents of almost the entire exhaust system (after the headers) coupled with an absurd price. When one purchases a car you are placing trust in the manufacturer that the pricing of maintenance and repair will be somewhat reasonable. With Lexus' approach on this they have, in my view, violated that trust and as a result I no longer wish to do business with them, and continuing to own this vehicle would mean doing so. Hopefully I am not unduly burdening the forum with this lengthly posting, but I felt it important to make existing and prospective RX450h owners aware of this. While this specific case involves the heat exchanger, a hybrid specific part, the same repair cost would be incurred if either the catalytic converter or the muffler required replacement. This is unprecedented and any owner would be shocked to find that replacing the muffler, a replacement they would expect to cost a few to several hundred dollars, is going to cost them $5400.

As a result of a high temp alarm our 2010 RX450h was towed to the dealer. Inspection revealed some road debris had hit the heat exchanger in the exhaust, a new feature beginning with the RX450h to more quickly bring the engine up to temperature. As to what specifically hit the heat exchanger is unknown, probably a rock, and while the damage is apparent, the magniture of the hit was small enough that neither the driver or passenger noticed anything unusual, even though the heat exchanger is directly under the front passenger seat. While you'd think one would simply have the heat exchanger replaced, Lexus has chosen to make it part of an assembly that includes the catalytic converter and muffler - a $4200 part. A few other bits and pieces raises the parts total to $4400 and with $300 in labor the total is $4700 to repair. While Lexus can't control damage from road debris, they could have added two more pairs of flanges in the exhaust system (an insignificant cost) allowing the heat exchanger to be replaced individually instead of having to replace every major component in the exhaust pipe, dramatically reducing the cost of repair. With having designed and built the exhaust system the way they did, they have provided insufficient protection to an extremely expensive assembly that is located in an inherently vulnerable location. After all, this is the underside of the car and debris will strike it in normal operation. Frankly I consider this an unacceptable vulnerability entailing excessive risk of expensive repairs and have to wonder if it's worthwhile to keep the vehicle.

For about a month our RX450h selects the incorrect XM channel in response to a voice command. The system reply confirms it has 'heard' the requested channel name, but then selects the incorrect channel number. Took the car in this morning to the dealer to have it looked into and they called Lexus tech and were told it is an issue resulting from the change in some XM channel numbers recently. Lexus is waiting for XM to correct something so they can then update the voice command. All well and good, except I was told there is no anticipated date for this and it make take till next year! What's odd is that the radio displays the correct channel name with any channel number; i.e. the correct channel name/number information is being identified and used by the radio, but apparently the voice command system doesn't use this. What it uses to look up the channel number for requested name I don't know. I'm assuming everyone with a 2010 or later is having this issue - yes? What have you learned about the cause of this and when/how it might be resolved?

A bit late to this conversation but our 2010 450h makes the same sound when cold. As it approaches full operating temperature it does not. I believe it's associated with a fast idle used to accelerate bringing the engine up to temperature since the engine is; 1) certainly idling faster than when a normal operating temp and, 2) at warmer ambient temp's, say above 60 or so, the occurence is noticeably reduced.

Comparing the speedometer indication to roadside radar speed displays indicated the speedo reads high - not unusual in many vehicles. On a recent trip with many opporunities to maintain a constant speed I compared the speedometer read out to the average speed indicated on the information display on several occasions. Consistenly the speedometer read higher than the information display average speed. For example, at 74 mph on the speedomoter the info display average speed is 70 mph. This makes me wonder if the average speed on the information display is from the NAV system and thus GPS based providing a more accurate indication than the speedometer and thus provides a correction factor to one's speedomeoter. Comments? Thoughts?

All we're talking about here is the ability to go to additional list pages - applies really to whether it's a list of songs, POI's, etc. Also, Lexus (sales people) advertise that the click disabled functions while moving are available via voice command (RX450h here), yet I cannot find a 'scroll' or 'next page' voice command. Anyone know of one? Related, I cannot access my address book with voice command, though POI's, eDestination, etc. are available. Can't see why Address Book wouldn't be available yet the other destination sources are. Have others found this to be the case with their RX450h?

I'm aware that Lexus has intentionally disabled various nav menu functions when the car is in motion, but just discovered on my RX450h that this includes the ability to scroll through list pages of USB files/folders. Annoying to say the least when you have many folders on a flash memory and don't want to pull over to scroll down the list. Imagine having to do this while on the freeway. Yes, you can go folder by folder using the 'change disc' button, but this is very cumbersome when you have a lot of folders. Is there any way to override this menu function disabling?