Tranny Fluid Change

[eman_be_lexin]

Hi I am new to this website and have found it to be very informative. I have a 97 ES300 and I bought it in 01 with 44,000 miles on it. I am pushing 130,000 and I have never changed the tranny fluid. I was told by a very well respected mechanic that if the fluid was never changed on a regular basis, than do not change it. I know many people who go for a long time and never change their fluid and one day have it changed and "boom" the tranny goes up? What should I do?

[mburnickas]

I would change the fluid but that is me. I do mine every 30 to 40K (running Amosil). Been using it for a long time.

[exdotcomer]

i'm in the same boat - sort of- 60,750 miles, never changed the fluid. I'll post a pic tomorrow and ask if you guys think I should. I'm starting to get worried. It's not slipping, knock on wood.

[steviej]

I would start small, just a drain and fill.

If you do a mechanical flush of the entire system you may be in for more problems seeing that it hasn't been flushed in a wicked long time.

steviej

[NeiLtYmE]

why does this matter?

[steviej]

I have read in several places that a major flush on a tranny that hasn't had the fluid changed in a long while can create pressure problems and leakage problems when the old/thick/dirty fluid is removed or flushed out. When I get home in the morning, I will find the exact wording or reference and post back.

steviej

[monarch]

I was told by a very well respected mechanic that if the fluid was never changed on a regular basis, than do not change it.

Mechanics offer generic advice, but not Toyota specific advice, so that's why they are not a good source of advice. Various car care websites on the internet suffer the same problem.

As a hobby for many years I have purchased, restored and resold 20-30 year old vintage Toyotas. Many had brown automatic transmission fluid because the prior owners(s) never had it changed. I just drained and refilled the transmission oil pan 7-8 times on these vehicles over a period of a month and this simple procedure cleaned up the fluid and the transmission without causing other problems. So that's what I would do if I was in your shoes.

I'd also use genuine Toyota automatic transmission fluid since the formulation, technology and functionality is superior to most non-genuine Toyota competitors: http://www.saber.net/~monarch/gtatf.jpg

http://www.saber.net/~monarch/gtatf2.jpg

[eman_be_lexin]

This website is the best. Thank you all for your insight. I will just take a chance and get a drain and fill first and see what happens. But only at a Lexus or Toyota Dealership. Better safe than sorry.

[Lexusfreak]

Double check your owners manual & make sure you use the correct fluid & not just any ATF. Not 100% sure about your 97', but my 01 is only recommended for Toyota type IV fluid & nothing else. I agree with steviej because of the milage on the car in regards to the possible pressure problems, but maybe change the fluid more frequently and do several "drain & fills" over the course of a year or so to get as much new fluid in there as possible. If you do decide to go with a complete tranny flush (100% fluid change) down the road, I'd replace the transmission pan gasket & clean out the mesh screen at the same time to get rid of any metal shavings. B)

[eman_be_lexin]

You guys give great advice. Thanks again. Has anyone had to replace their tranny on a 97+ ES yet. What price do they run? Just in case I have to go that route?

[branshew]

As a hobby for many years I have purchased, restored and resold 20-30 year old vintage Toyotas. Many had brown automatic transmission fluid because the prior owners(s) never had it changed. I just drained and refilled the transmission oil pan 7-8 times on these vehicles over a period of a month and this simple procedure cleaned up the fluid and the transmission without causing other problems. So that's what I would do if I was in your shoes.

You're talking aout 20 year old Toyotas here and not a newer model Lexus. Although some things are similar, there is a big age and technological difference between these vehicles. It could be argued that a transmission is a transmission, but in that case your "Toyota specific advice" argument dosen't apply.

I don't have any experience with it either way since I change my fluid regularly, but I have heard my mechanic say the same thing - if you haven't changed it in the first 100K then don't bother.

If you want to change the fluid and cover your @$$, then go to the dealership and ask them the same question. If they say no problem, tell them to change it, but make it clear that if anything happens in the next 5-10K miles you'll hold them responsible.

[Lexusfreak]

Agreed! :) That's good advice branshew! Put the ball in their court.

[monarch]

You're talking aout 20 year old Toyotas here and not a newer model Lexus. Although some things are similar, there is a big age and technological difference between these vehicles. It could be argued that a transmission is a transmission, but in that case your "Toyota specific advice" argument dosen't apply.

What differences? In 1973 the bandless Aisin-Warner automatic was first used on Toyotas and the same basic design is still used to this day in Toyotas and Lexus's. Gears have been added and electronic shift control solenoids added. But no dramatic design changes. And the 2004 models still use the same metal mesh filter screen that was used in the 1960's.

Also, if you open up a toyota automatic transmission that never had the fluid changed for 100-150K miles you will find the parts are still very clean and sludgefree. The fluid is all brown from oxidation, but is not thick or gooey at all. If anything, the old fluid is thinner and more watery. So by draining and refilling the transmission oil pan 7-8 times over a period of weeks, the brown, oxidized fluid is replaced, but no "crud" is loosened up to cause trouble because there was never any to begin with.

This is what I mean by Toyota specific advice and experience. Another example: 95% of independent shop mechanics will tell the public the Toyota transmission fliter needs to be replaced regularly - at the same time the fluid is changed. But Toyota experts know these

filters (metal screens) very rarely ever become blocked and restricted so it's a waste to change them all the time - especially considering an independent shop will use a cheap quality Fram type replacement screens instead of Toyota screens.

[Lexusfreak]

Very good points monarch! :)

[tundra-lover]

This is killing me to hear all this! I can't believe that nobody has bothered to get any information from a reputable transmission shop. True, you may be able to get the fluid clean which may indeed clean up areas- thus causing more problems.

However, your missing the fact that the clutches inside wear out, along with other intricate parts, and the torque converter- some even the OD.

I've changed my fluid when I bought mine, and I would suggest going through the previous threads on this- because of the same questions are brought up. Anyway, the tranny started to slip soon after the drain and fill. Yes, the pan was dropped and checked for any metal shavings- None! It was just dirty, and the previous owner decided that no ATF changes were needed? A month later it began to smell and sound very badly, so I took it in and dropped the pan. It had metal shavings, and was toasty hot! She was done, and I stuck a fork in her!

I couldn't sell the car, and the thought of keeping it -only to replace it with a used one didn't sit well with me. Also, having one of the big name tranny companies try to put a mass produced replacement from another car didn't sit well with me either! I had a local reputable shop, "LELIS AUTOMATIC" tear it down and rebuild it completely with carbon fiber clutches, rebuild kit, and new torque converter at the tune of $2300. After break in period, all the fluids were replaced with appropriate Dexron level synthetic ATF. The shifts are firm and smooth! Very quiet, and cool! So, if you want to keep changing the fluid- it may be a good band-aid for you! But, plan to have it fixed soon. Oh ya, don't forget to tell the buyer what you've done if you decide to sell it!

[Lexusfreak]

tundra makes a good point. It wouldn't hurt to take the car to a good transmission shop (or two) and get another opinion.

[tundra-lover]

The bottom line here, is that no matter what tranny maintenance you do, you need to drop the pan and inspect it for wear by way of the magnets is vital. The whole point is to catch it before worse things happen. It is much cheaper to replace things, before it causes more damage to other vital areas! Just doing a drain and fill won't tell you anything! I would think that its a form of cheap insurance. So telling other people its a wast of time to check/clean, or replace the metal screen is NOT good advice!

[Lexusfreak]

If regular maintenance has been performed since the vehicle was new & one drives the vehicle "normal", does not abuse it, & is not noticing any irregular or unusual shift noises, regular maintenance is all that is needed......taking all kinds of things apart in that case is overkill. If the tranny has not been maintained correctly & there is an obvious problem I would agree to go that route. Yes you can tell a fair bit if there are a significant amount of metal shavings caught in the filter mesh screen as well. A "properly" maintained transmission & engine for that matter should last the life of the car whether that be 150,000 - 500,000 miles or more without any major breakdowns, overhauls and the like. Only routine fluid & filter changes (in the case of the transmission.....clean the mesh screen filter from time to time) are needed. B)

[monarch]

Anyway, the tranny started to slip soon after the drain and fill. Yes, the pan was dropped and checked for any metal shavings- None! It was just dirty, and the previous owner decided that no ATF changes were needed? A month later it began to smell and sound very badly, so I took it in and dropped the pan. It had metal shavings, and was toasty hot! She was done, and I stuck a fork in her!

Sounds like the fluid level was too low or too high after the transmission pan was drained and refilled causing transmission slippage, fluid overheating and transmssion burn out. Do it yourselfers can avoid this serious potential problem by measuring the amount drained in a juice pitcher, then pouring back the same amount drained. Also, do it yourselfers need to follow the factory manual procedure of shifting slowly through all the gears before checking the transmission fluid level when cold. Then they must double check the fluid level again when the engine and transmission are fully warmed up.

[monarch]

So telling other people its a waste of time to check/clean, or replace the metal screen is NOT good advice!

The people who say its a waste of time to check/clean, or replace the metal screen or even clean the magnets on a Toyota with under 100- 150,000 miles are precisely the ones with alot of Toyota specific experience.

The people who say it is important to check/clean, or replace the metal filter screen on a Toyota at regular intervals, even on a Toyota with less than 100,000 miles, are precisely the ones without alot of Toyota specific experience (or are simply mechancis who are dishonest and unethical which is a huge problem in the transmission industry).

Here's a very common independent tranny shop rip off: Toyota owner comes into tranny shop complaining of wierd, erratic shifting like transmission is on its last legs. Shop mechanic says a new $2,500 transmission is needed. Shocked Toyota owner takes car to a Toyota specialty shop for a second opinion. Toyota shop says: "you just need four new $100 electronic shift control solenoids because these are normal wear items after 125,000 miles or so." Toyota owner saves himself $2,000.

[tundra-lover]

That would be a nice theory, but not always the case- no matter what shop, or who works on it. I've owned enough Toy's to know who's honest here, and happen to be close friends with my local Toyota/Lexus tech. I'm also very good friends with the owner of the tranny shop I had to take it to. I've seen what they did, and know the parts that were damaged. Only those damaged parts were replaced. No sensors, but Oh ya, if it were- the codes would read when they do the diagnostic! Usually when it smells like a refinery melting down, you have a problem not solved by fluid change. And yes the fluid level was CORRECT! So, you can take this information for what it is. Unfortunately for me, I bought a car that was not poperly maintained.

[eman_be_lexin]

I do have to admit that I am a little hard on my baby. I just love the sportiness and the smoothness of this car. I am taking everyone's advice into effect. I will get different opinions both from a Lexus dealership and Toyota dealership and from a transmission place and see where I will make out. She drives good although at times she jerks when shifting from park or from reverse to drive. I am very lucky because I have had little to no major problems with this car and am still running on all original parts including the spark plugs and wires. I will definately be getting another Lexus when it is time.

[Lex3486]

This is all good advice. I've come to find that transmissions are very tricky. One thing that will always probably do you well though, is to just go easy on them. Drive hard, and you'll pay the price, like I am now