2013 Rx 350 Or Rx 450H...help Me Decide!

[MeryLexmas]

You'd probably have to be an advanced-degree electrical engineer with a background in NiMh batteries to do anything safely.

The potential is already there. It could be as simple as a reflash. Adding up the combined power of the electric motors and gasoline engine you get 440 hp and 554 lbs/ft of torque. The problem would be to have the electric motors produce or maintain peak torque up to or at the same time as the I.C.E. I think the I.C.E torque peak is around 4500rpm where as the electric motors peak at 0-1500 rpm and 0-610 rpm F/R. Another potential problem could be the ability of the CVT to handle that much torque. The GS450 is tuned to allow more HP and I believe it uses similar electric motors. The V6 is the same 3.5l used in the RX450H I believe. If you look at the Kilowatt gauge in the GS it goes up to 250 where as the 400h is limited to 200. Allowing the the Electric motors in the 400h to put out the same amount would boost performance very noticibley. Unfortunately you would probably loose the potential for 30mpg as it seems the GS can only manage 21-24 combined MPG and it weighs about 300lbs less.

[cduluk]

The RX400h is actually faster than the all-gas RX350 as well. Car & Driver clocked the 400h at 0-60 MPH in 6.6 seconds. At the time, that was faster than the Porsche Cayenne-S. Faster AND better mileage at the same time! In fact, the new GS450h, being lighter by about 300 lbs) is even faster at 0-60 in 6 seconds or less with EPA mileage ratings of 29 city and 34 highway.

Not only that, but the '06-08 Rx400h is quicker to 60mph than the '10-13 RX450h or any other SUV that Lexus has ever made to this day.

The '06-08 Rx400h AWD is the quickest due to it having 2 electric motors, yielding 0-60 times from 6.9sec-7.3sec based on the charge of the hybrid battery.

The '06-08 Rx400h FWD with only 1 electric motor to aid the engine has a 0-60 time ranging from 7.2sec-7.5sec based on the charge of the hybrid battery.

Although the '10-12 Rx450h has more total horsepower, due to the extra weight of this generation over the previous, it still produces longer 0-60 times.

Also noteworthy is the fact that the '12-13 RX350 is slower than the '10-11 RX350, after Lexus reduced the max hp rating. Lexus did this also with the '11-12 ES350. The lower hp rating reduces the 0-60 times by a few tenths of a second.

What i find disturbing is the fact that the '12-13 RX350 is just as slow as the '04-6 RX330 with the same fuel economy. And this is barely faster than the '99-03 Rx300.

Here is a chart comparing data for the RX's from 2004-2013. The big "unknown" is the combined torque values for the RX hybrids. The issue is that the electric motors produce INSTANT torque, while the engine itself can't acheive max torque as quickly. Adding the foot pounds generated from the engines and electric motors together, we'd be getting thousands of foot pounds of torque which would rip the car apart, so Lexus controls the output from each system.

Lexus designed and branded the RX hybrid as a "performance hybrid" rather than an economy hybrid, similar thinking as that applied to the GS450h. The advantage of electric motors is the fact that torque is instant. From a start, the electric motors are working at max capacity. The extra torque is most evident while "passing" other drivers from speeds between 30-50mph.

Having experience driving a 2003 Rx300 AWD for 4 years, my own 2008 Rx400h AWD since 2009, moderate experience in a 2009 Rx350 AWD, and test drives of both the '10-11 RX350 AWD and RX450h AWD, i can tell you that the gas-only models give more of a "push" from 0mph, yet idol out a few seconds later. The hybrid models have a visible delay from start, and take a few seconds for the power to kick in. If the two were to be "raced", the gas only versions would appear quicker from a start, but the hybrid models would catch up and pass within a few seconds. If both models were side by side cruising at 30mph and both drivers told to floor it, the hybrid would absolutely blow by the gas-only version. The torque at high speeds is amazing.

What i find so interesting is the variation in acceleration abilities of the hybrid models based on how "charged" the hybrid batteries are. If the energy monitor is showing a low charge (1-2 bars) the acceleration is pathetic. However if the enegy monitor shows the battery charged or nearly charged, the acceleration is vey brisk, often resulting in the tires to spin and the skid control to be activated. Although this is probably not healthy for the car, you can force the battery to fully charge by holding down the brake, putting the car in D and holding down the accelerator pedal for 30 second incraments. Very slowly, the battery will begin to charge. This is outlined in the ICE reset.

Another issue with the hybrid concerns the "delay" of acceleration once the pedal is depressed. To overcome this delay, when at a stop light, simply place your left foot on the brake, and right foot on the gas at the same time. Once the light turns green, let go of the brake and off you go! With no delay. However do not let this happen for more than 30 seconds as this can damage the car. This procedure charges the battery, and removes the "delay" in acceleration. Your tires WILL scream and you'd better hold the steering wheel!

[RXREY]

I can do that without pressing the brake...I know that my 400h was faster...I never intended to sound like I didn't know that...it's just here in LA we have the 110 freeway built in 1939 and you really have to peel out to get on it...the 400h was mushy...this one is NOT ever mushy....after that it doesn't matter since LA freeways are jammed up most of the time so I wasn't using the freeway power that I had with my 400h. With this 2010rx350 I had to learn to barely touch the gas so as to not pounce like a cat.....I was very happy with my 400h....but this one feels better....I did have the 400h for 7 years so it's not like I don't know the car for Pete's sake. No one else agrees that at the start this one pounces? It really feels great. I think that I better get off this forum now...sorry guys, I didn't mean to upset anyone. Thanks for all of the help in the past , be well. Please, no more charts...none of that means much to me..I am a simple person, I know what I feel and this 350 feels great...not mushy...at the START.....from a dead start the 400h was...well, MUSHY. I can't explain it.....The post started as to which one to get...I just gave an opinion since I have owned both.....good bye. Rey

[MeryLexmas]

Nice post, cduluk. Nice chart too. One error though. The 06-08 FWD torque figure shoud be 459 since it lacks the rear electric motor. I think break torquing is probably why Car & Driver got the quickest acceleration #'s. Other testers probably didn't do that. Clocking the 400h with my buddies G-tech accelerometer gives acceleration times in the 5.5 - 5.8 second range. Same as his slightly modded Subaru Legacy GT turbo.

Question, I've had the RX in excess of 120mph before. I thought maybe it didn't have a speed limiter. But the other day I tried again and it cut the fun at 110. Weird.

[MeryLexmas]

RXRey, you are not even the subjuect of this topic anymore, at least not to me. We seem to have actually gone off topic into the abilities and potetial of the 400h. No one is ragging you for picking something you like. Chill and enjoy your purchase!

[cduluk]

I can do that without pressing the brake...I know that my 400h was faster...I never intended to sound like I didn't know that...it's just here in LA we have the 110 freeway built in 1939 and you really have to peel out to get on it...the 400h was mushy...this one is NOT ever mushy....after that it doesn't matter since LA freeways are jammed up most of the time so I wasn't using the freeway power that I had with my 400h. With this 2010rx350 I had to learn to barely touch the gas so as to not pounce like a cat.....I was very happy with my 400h....but this one feels better....I did have the 400h for 7 years so it's not like I don't know the car for Pete's sake. No one else agrees that at the start this one pounces? It really feels great. I think that I better get off this forum now...sorry guys, I didn't mean to upset anyone. Thanks for all of the help in the past , be well. Please, no more charts...none of that means much to me..I am a simple person, I know what I feel and this 350 feels great...not mushy...at the START.....from a dead start the 400h was...well, MUSHY. I can't explain it.....The post started as to which one to get...I just gave an opinion since I have owned both.....good bye. Rey

RXREY, i was agreeing with you! ^_^ From my experience with the RX300 and RX350, both are much faster off the line than the hybrid. Without a doubt, the hybrid has a delay that annoys the crap out of me (at least). I'm pretty confident that if one were to race an Rx300 and Rx400h, the Rx300 would make it past the 100ft line before the 400h. I think Lexus created this delay on purpose for the hybrids, but i can't for the life of me figure it out. But you are totally right, the gas-only versions do "pounce" better than the hybrids. But in terms of passing power... the gas-only version just seems to, well, creep along.

Nice post, cduluk. Nice chart too. One error though. The 06-08 FWD torque figure shoud be 459 since it lacks the rear electric motor. I think break torquing is probably why Car & Driver got the quickest acceleration #'s. Other testers probably didn't do that. Clocking the 400h with my buddies G-tech accelerometer gives acceleration times in the 5.5 - 5.8 second range. Same as his slightly modded Subaru Legacy GT turbo.

Question, I've had the RX in excess of 120mph before. I thought maybe it didn't have a speed limiter. But the other day I tried again and it cut the fun at 110. Weird.

Oh i have no doubt my torque numbers are messed up, believe me! LOL. I literally searched Lexus' PDF's for HOURS looking for COMBINED torque curves but none of them provided any difference between the AWD and FWD models. I'm thinking Lexus has controlled the total output for each. And to be honest, it all depends on the road conditions, terrain levels, and most significantly the charge of the hybrid battery. I don't think anyone can produce a torque number that's consistent, because it's completely not. It's very frustrating while driving because i never know which "mood" the car's going to be in if i want to pass. If it's undercharged, man it feels slower than my old Rx300! But when charged it feels faster than the GS350.

I wish Lexus would put a switch on the dash that could be activated for 50 seconds at a time, for those rare occasions when you just want the max 500+ lb-ft of torque and all the power the car can make. Heck with breaking the car, i want my power!!

And i agree that the max speed of the Rx400h can vary. I've seen my needle go past 115mph before. Someone should try taking it down hill and putting it into neutral, maybe that would confuse the computer?

[RX400h]

According to the RX400h first-drive by Car & Driver:

A bigger, more-powerful 163-hp electric motor (MG2) is connected to the sun gear of the second of the planetary gearsets (dubbed the speed-reduction gearset, which provides the stepless ratio changes across the system's operating range). This motor abets the V-6 gas engine, adding copious amounts of torque to the front transaxle, but it can also power the car all on its own or act as a generator to replenish the hybrid-drive batteries. The final piece in the puzzle is a beautifully designed multifunctional gear, which essentially hooks the whole front-axle power system together, allowing the various components to act separately or in unison, depending on the judgment of the control computer.

At the rear wheels we find the rear electric motor (MGR), which is hooked directly by gear drive to the rear differential. This one is air- and oil-cooled, since it only functions intermittently (the other MGs are water- and oil-cooled), and it adds another 67 horsepower to the mix. Hermance says this motor cranks over 650 pound-feet of drive-axle torque to the vehicle's overall tractive effort when it's energized.

We believe him.

On a side note, many car manufacturers play with the throttle "tip-in" to give the owner the impression that the vehicle is much more powerful than it really is. Back in 2005 when we had a Nissan Maxima rental, I had to try really hard NOT to spin the front tires when taking off from a stop. It was actually annoying and hard to control when sitting in heavy traffic and attempting to creep forward. I was happy to give that car back. Nissan went a bit overboard, I'd say.

But as Cduluk mentioned, that initial surge dies down quickly and any perception of massive horsepower dies down along with it. The RX400h and RX450h, on the other hand produce a delayed surge that is somewhat like that of a turbo or supercharged vehicle. Car & Driver, when reporting about a long-term RX400h, said

The 0-to-60 time dropped to 6.6 seconds — matching a 340-hp Porsche Cayenne S — and the quarter-mile to 15.2 seconds at 94 mph, only 0.2 second and 1 mph slower than the Cayenne.

Needless to say, BMW X5 owners were quite shocked when an SUV getting 50% better fuel mileage out-accelerated them, handily.

Finally, C & D commented that

our RX400h turned out to be a spry and fuel-efficient luxury SUV, which is a rare combination in this price segment. For some people, that will be more than enough to justify the premium over an RX350

Back then, gas was about $2.30/gallon. It's alot easier to justify the extra cost, now that fuel is 75% higher.

[cduluk]

Rx400h, i couldn't have said it better! There have been many situations where i've "tested" X5 drivers out and none have ever been able to get by me. There aren't many SUV's out there that can "out-pass" the 400h. If you're cruising together at 30mph and you floor it in the 400h, goodbye everybody else!

The extra torque alone IMO is worth the extra cost. It might sound like "overkill" but for someone that does a lot of highway driving, being able to merge with ease is a big plus.

[RX400h]

Agreed! But to revert back to Gulligirl's original post - the decision to go hybrid was well made.

[cduluk]

Agreed! But to revert back to Gulligirl's original post - the decision to go hybrid was well made.

Definitely! The benefits extend way beyond the fuel savings. From what i can determine, the hybrid models also rank higher in reliability ratings.