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lenore

So Snopes Covers For Obama

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Army of 1 Thanks josh for jumping in' date=' I very much enjoy your views. I too was young once and the politics of the day were very disturbing (Vietnam war). Heck I was spat on in Oakland California while being processed at the Army induction center...I had no choice, our govenment said you will register and get a physical...Those were very disturbing moments in my life, I was 18 and Strangers were calling me baby killer, etc...and I wasnt even in the Service...I am proud to have served (UNITED STATES NAVY) and I will look back and generally only remember the good times. That moment in Oakland was not what represented my life in those years...Beware Josh, you defend this nation, but your leaders can make decisions that are not good, or good. You (sorry to say) have no rights, because you are a service man...compared to the folks that didnt serve and have the freedom to spit on our flag, or not support your effort. I understand. My father was a 20 year veteran, and I am proud of you for carrying on the traditions that make our country great. Your view is important. May be different from mine, but very important, because at any moment you can be in harms way. Thank you so very much for your service, and again good luck. I will put you personally in my prayers until your safe return.

[/quote']

Thank you for the kind words...but did you really give my "view's" any thought? I am not saying you have to change yours. After all, both you and I have fought for the freedom of citizens of this fine country to express these veiws. But Almost everything Steve (SW03ES) is saying is bang on. But just so you can see that I am, in fact, objective to both sides of the coin, allow me to (CONSTUCTIVELY) pick apart Steve's point of view, as well as yours...\/...

First of all I am NOT a "progressive"' date=' so stop calling me that.

And I have no problem with Christians, I was raised Christian as were my parents and their parents. I personally am not religious, but I don't fault anyone for being religious as that is their choice. I believe in something higher, I think our consciousness passes over to something beyond when we die. I believe in living a good and moral life. What doesn't work for me is organized sit in a church every week religion. I agree with you, religion does a lot of good...but it doesn't do no harm either.

As you said, the issue is RADICAL Christianity just like the Muslims trying to build a Mosque in Mufreesboro, TN aren't the problem, its RADICAL muslims. In my opinion though, the modern day Republican party has been taken over by RADICAL evangelical Christians that seek to dictate to those who may not believe in their religion that they must live according to the tenants of their religion. They have made it their goal to dictate what women can do with their own bodies, what other religions can build in terms of places to worship, who can and cannot get married when the only argument for their position is some ficticious book that they take as the word of God. Thats great that its the word of their God, but it is not MY God. As you said, this country was built on the foundation of freedom of religion whether it was founded by Christians or not. It was founded by white people too, does that mean only they have rights? Founded by Men too, do only they have rights? The bible should not even come into question when it comes to legislation.[/quote']

TRUTH. Separation of Church and State is one of the basic's this country was founded upon. I, myself have a hard time understanding WHY it (religion) keeps coming up in politics. IT SHOULD BE LEFT TOTALLY OUT!!! Oh I believe in God, but the very thought that God even exists and that religion is part of our world should be completely discounted in politics. The people and the views ACCORDING TO HOW THEY AFFECT GOVERNMENT AND THE CONSTITUENCY should be all that matters in politics. Religion is the biggest crock of *BLEEP* in my opinion, it always screws everything up. One (person/party, whatever) cannot be considered completely objective to ANYTHING until religion is completely off the table.

Sadly, I dont think it ever will be. :rolleyes:

A conservative is supposed to let people make their own choices right? So why is it wrong' date=' according to Republicans for the government to force people to buy healthcare, to make the wealthy pay slightly higher taxes, to regulate how business is conducted to protect the citizenry, but its not wrong for the government to bar women from having abortions, legislate abstinence education and disallow publicly available contraceptives, to keep !Removed! people from getting married, to disallow Muslims from building mosques and to force by law school children to recite a pledge of allegiance that references a God their family might not believe in?

Why? Because of the bible. Because the bible says its right. [u']Sorry...I don't give a !Removed! about the bible. I don't care if you do, but keep it out of my face.

HERE is a perfect example (Sorry Steve, to use you as one, you know I love ya...but... :lol: ). The above statement in bold ruffles my feathers, in fact it downright *BLEEP*es me off. I do not agree with it one bit. I find it cold, and flying in the face of alot of things that I believe in....

WHICH IS PRESCISELY WHY RELIGION NEEDS TO STAY OUT OF POLITICS!!!!! B) We are free to agree to disagree. I am not likely to change Steve's belief and he is not likely to change mine. Just like we are not likely to change your's. We all, as individuals form our own sense of right/wrong/religion, etc. As we do so, these views shape who we really are. Something so subjective as religion (that really, if we are honest, has no basis in fact), has NO business in politics...Period.

(Thank you, Steve, for proving the point).

When the radical evangelicals are driven out of the Republican party' date=' I and those like me will be back. Until then we'll have to make due with what we've got on the other side.

I have built, grown and sold several small businesses in my short life. I am a very successful small businessperson. I don't have to talk to small businesspeople, I am one.

What, specifically have your small business owning friends said are specific Obama administration policies that have "tied their hands"? Because...I see no such impediments in my businesses...

Again, I am [b']NOT a progressive thinker. Sorry, but I don't lend any credence to anybody so openly affected by their own bigotry and prejudice. You can't take distrust of an entire race of people "out of context".

LMAO! I live in Washington my friend, and I can't remember the last time my commute was interrupted by a "militant rally". Its not 1967 anymore.

God is not a political figure. I respect you and your sacrifice and service to this country, but this is a new world...its a world belonging to my generation...not yours. Its time you let us chart our own course. You were asked to fight for this country, not God. If you chose to fight also for God, that was your choice. But God does not BELONG on those monuments. I don't really care whether he's there or not, and I have a sneaking suspicion if the radical Christian right would end the assault of Homosexuals, Muslims, and Women you'd find "progressives" wouldn't care so much about "God" being on a monument or a dollar bill. They bring that fight to you to hurt you, because you hurt them.

A quote as taken out of context as the one's you're lamenting that those that disagree with you use about Hermann Cain.

I don't see you as having one iota of an open mind. Sorry.

This is getting really intense. While I do agree that it is not 1967 anymore, I do believe that Lenore's generation still has plenty to offer us in terms of life experience and guidance. Far be it for me to say, but in all reality, whose generation is it leading us in congress/the presidency? With the exception of Obama, most of the political leaders in this country are FROM Lenore's generation. So in all fairness, The country does belong to them...why? BECAUSE WE (My generation and yours, Steve ;) ) PUT THEM THERE.

I said it before, and I will say it again.

Change??? What change? Its still the same ol' song and dance it has been for years! Except now' date=' for the first time in history, there is a Black man in charge. And he isn't even all the way Black!!!! :lol: [/quote']

I think we have more to fear from each other than we do Lenore's generation. Our generations (Steve, I am not sure if you and I belong to the same one but I will say...No...LOL), have some of the most outspoken forward thinkers (and some of the most selfish people) in the history of humanity. That's bound to spell disaster on some level. :geek::blink:

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Lenore, now we are getting somewhere. Let's just pick a point or two to discuss so we can keep our answers short and concise.

What's it going to be? Education? Unemployment? How about the effects of the Internet and globalization. Or the impact of derivatives trading on the economy?

And by the way. Most students of history consider Facism to be on the far right of the political spectrum - not to the left of the center where the Democrats reside.

Lenore, I renew my offer to debate you one point at a time rather than address your laundry list of gripes. But I think you should know that, holding three college degrees and having training and experience in debating, you might consider me one of those educated elitists you don't seem to like.

I like what Clint Eastwood said in Dirty Harry: "Go ahead, make my day. I know what you're thinking: 'Did he fire six shots or only five?' Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I've kinda lost track myself. But being as this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world, and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya, punk?"

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Man, we're really covering all of the basis on this one! Religion is such a personal topic, as rarely will you ever find two people of any religion who interpret their own religion in the same way. On this topic, I have to agree that having a politician (not exactly a saints profession) blend in the word of God to the masses, is almost blasphemy. How can one who has the power to kill all living things, yet dumb enough to commit audultry with an intern (just an example) be considered a religious crusader of the masses? He can't, and shouldn't. Yet, having that said, I grew up saying the Pledge of Allegiance, with ALL of the words, every day in my public school, and I think it should remain that way. It's a pledge to a country with a basic parameter of rules, basic. It's not a Pledge of Allegiance to one specific God.

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Now, having that said: Let us not forget the makeup of this country, and why it is the only one in the world where a man would risk the lives of his family in a make shift raft in the middle of the ocean to reach from, say Cuba. Give us your tired, your poor, your..... Basically, in not so politically terms, we ARE a country of mutts, a mixed bag of everything. You can't expect everyone to follow the same Christian belief system, or even follow one in general. But, you can expect the true power holders of this country, the US Supreme Court, to protect the core of the Constitution, which does include some religious aspects. Case in point - Sharia Law being accepted in the US Court system. Never gonna happen!

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And I'll give you all another example of why this election needs to be all about "business". S&P put the US Treasuries on "Negative Watch" today. US Treasuries are the benchmark for interest rates. I get live updates twice a day on the wide range of T-Bills (3 year, 7 year, 10 year, etc) If you were to by a 3 year T-Bill right now, it would produce an annual yield on your invest of 0.680%. Buy a 7 year T-Bill today, barely more than 2.1% yield. What does this translate to in "American" language? The dollar is practically worthless. Inflation must happen, we're BROKE fellas! T-Bills weren't even close to being this low 3 years ago when the DOW was going through 700 point drops in a day, and Lehman Brothers was going under, one of the biggest mistakes ever made by the FED. Lehman Bros was "main street USA" as opposed to AIG, which was Wall Street, in Singapore. All of these debates about values and principals of religion and healthcare and everything else, albeit very important and serious matters, can wait until we get the neon sign on the front door to work again, that says "Open". We don't get this fixed in a more permanent manner other than borrowing from China every 60 days, we're screwed. We are SERIOUSLY flirting with the very thing we were supposed to be avoiding with all of this debt... Business business business.

And before anyone puts up Cain as a notable mention... Let us not forget the fate of his Pizza joint, Godfathers Pizza.... Bankrupt!

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HERE is a perfect example (Sorry Steve, to use you as one, you know I love ya...but... :lol: ). The above statement in bold ruffles my feathers, in fact it downright *BLEEP*es me off. I do not agree with it one bit. I find it cold, and flying in the face of alot of things that I believe in....

No problem at all, you are perfectly entitled to believe in and live your life according to the bible. My issue is the same as your issue, the bible should no more be legislated from than the Qur'an, the Torah, whatever...

I think if evangelicals stopped trying to insert the bible in people's lives without their consent, people who don't believe would be a whole lot less combative against Christianity. Although, all throughout the history of Christianity Christians have been unable to avoid doing that...but thats a separate discussion.

This is getting really intense. While I do agree that it is not 1967 anymore, I do believe that Lenore's generation still has plenty to offer us in terms of life experience and guidance. Far be it for me to say, but in all reality, whose generation is it leading us in congress/the presidency? With the exception of Obama, most of the political leaders in this country are FROM Lenore's generation. So in all fairness, The country does belong to them...why? BECAUSE WE (My generation and yours, Steve ;) ) PUT THEM THERE.

Of course they do, but I for one am tired of being looked down upon by older people like Lenore who feel that anybody from our generation who has strong beliefs is "brainwashed" or "a progressive" or whatever. People our age don't care if two men want to get married, by and large, and we don't care if women want to have abortions. We don't care about inserting religion into political discourse. What the old timers cry is that this is an "attack on the ideals of America". It most certainly is not. When America was founded, black people were property, there was no structured media or news, it took weeks to get messages anywhere, nobody could even fathom technology of stem cell research. Things change, times change. People change. The country needs to, and is GOING to change. We can't let people from the outgoing generations stifle this country's growth because they can't understand or make way for that change. Its never going to be 1955 again. People have s*x. They have it when they are 13, they get pregnant. Its everywhere. NOBODY waits until they are married anymore. Hell...a lot of people in younger generations don't care about being married at all. People get STDs, they die. Its cultural, its societal. You can't legislate those things. We can either pretend that the issue doesn't exist, like the evangelical right wants to, and preach abstinence and watch the problem spiral out of control. OR, we can put some of this technology to work we've invested so much in and make life safer and better for our citizenry. Why can't we do that? Oh yeah...the BIBLE!

Millions of people die of heart disease and cancer in this country. Alzheimers runs rampent. I watched my father, a proud businessman spend his last month of life at 67 with a failing heart ranting and raving up and down the halls of a nursing home with dementia. There's something out there that could have potentially grown him a new heart, or respawned damaged brain tissue and prolonged his life or at least made the last year better...stem cell research. But no, we can't fund and explore that...why? Oh yeah...the BIBLE!

So...you can see how I feel about the bible.

With the exception of Obama, most of the political leaders in this country are FROM Lenore's generation.

Exactly the problem IMHO, and this is why they hate Obama so much. Young guy, funny name, black, can pick a rapper out of a lineup, has a slick education and plenty of money in his pocket. He must be a socialst right? Red, evil son of a !Removed! right?

Change is scary, but get on board or we're going to run you over with the bus.

Yet' date=' having that said, I grew up saying the Pledge of Allegiance, with ALL of the words, every day in my public school, and I think it should remain that way. It's a pledge to a country with a basic parameter of rules, basic. It's not a Pledge of Allegiance to one specific God.[/quote']

I don't disagree. Like I said, I think if radical Christianity called a truce on the war they are raging against America's youth...people would stop caring about the word "God" being in the pledge of allegiance.

Case in point - Sharia Law being accepted in the US Court system. Never gonna happen!

Nor should it happen, nor do everyday Muslims want it to happen. The right wing uses "Sharia law" as a reason to persecute muslims and stop them from building mosques and places to worship. They chant "Its not just a religion, they have LAWS!". Thats just more ignorance spouting off, and more ignorants soaking it up to fuel their own hatred. EVERY religion has laws, every religion has tenants. It Judaism its called "Halakha" Just like Sharia law it has been used through history as legally enforceable law. Does anyone attack Jews and claim that we shouldn't allow any more synogogues to be built because they want to make it illegal to eat Shellfish? This is insanity.

The only people guilty of trying to form US laws around the rules and laws of their own religion are Christians.

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HERE is a perfect example (Sorry Steve, to use you as one, you know I love ya...but... :lol: ). The above statement in bold ruffles my feathers, in fact it downright *BLEEP*es me off. I do not agree with it one bit. I find it cold, and flying in the face of alot of things that I believe in....

No problem at all, you are perfectly entitled to believe in and live your life according to the bible. My issue is the same as your issue, the bible should no more be legislated from than the Qur'an, the Torah, whatever...

I think if evangelicals stopped trying to insert the bible in people's lives without their consent, people who don't believe would be a whole lot less combative against Christianity. Although, all throughout the history of Christianity Christians have been unable to avoid doing that...but thats a separate discussion.

This is getting really intense. While I do agree that it is not 1967 anymore, I do believe that Lenore's generation still has plenty to offer us in terms of life experience and guidance. Far be it for me to say, but in all reality, whose generation is it leading us in congress/the presidency? With the exception of Obama, most of the political leaders in this country are FROM Lenore's generation. So in all fairness, The country does belong to them...why? BECAUSE WE (My generation and yours, Steve ;) ) PUT THEM THERE.

Of course they do, but I for one am tired of being looked down upon by older people like Lenore who feel that anybody from our generation who has strong beliefs is "brainwashed" or "a progressive" or whatever. People our age don't care if two men want to get married, by and large, and we don't care if women want to have abortions. We don't care about inserting religion into political discourse. What the old timers cry is that this is an "attack on the ideals of America". It most certainly is not. When America was founded, black people were property, there was no structured media or news, it took weeks to get messages anywhere, nobody could even fathom technology of stem cell research. Things change, times change. People change. The country needs to, and is GOING to change. We can't let people from the outgoing generations stifle this country's growth because they can't understand or make way for that change. Its never going to be 1955 again. People have s*x. They have it when they are 13, they get pregnant. Its everywhere. NOBODY waits until they are married anymore. Hell...a lot of people in younger generations don't care about being married at all. People get STDs, they die. Its cultural, its societal. You can't legislate those things. We can either pretend that the issue doesn't exist, like the evangelical right wants to, and preach abstinence and watch the problem spiral out of control. OR, we can put some of this technology to work we've invested so much in and make life safer and better for our citizenry. Why can't we do that? Oh yeah...the BIBLE!

Millions of people die of heart disease and cancer in this country. Alzheimers runs rampent. I watched my father, a proud businessman spend his last month of life at 67 with a failing heart ranting and raving up and down the halls of a nursing home with dementia. There's something out there that could have potentially grown him a new heart, or respawned damaged brain tissue and prolonged his life or at least made the last year better...stem cell research. But no, we can't fund and explore that...why? Oh yeah...the BIBLE!

So...you can see how I feel about the bible.

With the exception of Obama, most of the political leaders in this country are FROM Lenore's generation.

Exactly the problem IMHO, and this is why they hate Obama so much. Young guy, funny name, black, can pick a rapper out of a lineup, has a slick education and plenty of money in his pocket. He must be a socialst right? Red, evil son of a !Removed! right?

Change is scary, but get on board or we're going to run you over with the bus.

Yet' date=' having that said, I grew up saying the Pledge of Allegiance, with ALL of the words, every day in my public school, and I think it should remain that way. It's a pledge to a country with a basic parameter of rules, basic. It's not a Pledge of Allegiance to one specific God.[/quote']

I don't disagree. Like I said, I think if radical Christianity called a truce on the war they are raging against America's youth...people would stop caring about the word "God" being in the pledge of allegiance.

Case in point - Sharia Law being accepted in the US Court system. Never gonna happen!

Nor should it happen, nor do everyday Muslims want it to happen. The right wing uses "Sharia law" as a reason to persecute muslims and stop them from building mosques and places to worship. They chant "Its not just a religion, they have LAWS!". Thats just more ignorance spouting off, and more ignorants soaking it up to fuel their own hatred. EVERY religion has laws, every religion has tenants. It Judaism its called "Halakha" Just like Sharia law it has been used through history as legally enforceable law. Does anyone attack Jews and claim that we shouldn't allow any more synogogues to be built because they want to make it illegal to eat Shellfish? This is insanity.

The only people guilty of trying to form US laws around the rules and laws of their own religion are Christians.

I was mostly just yanking your chain about the bible thing. I want to make it clear I am not in any way mad at you for speaking your mind. I was using it (more or less) as an over-illustrated example. I believe the Bible has some "holes" but thats, as you said...another topic.

As for the rest of it, once again, we find ourselves in agreement. :) :cheers: I do think that the older generations have alot to offer, but I agree also that change is inevitable, and those who cant accept it will eventually get slapped in the face with it.

Your analogy made me laugh. LOL. :lol:

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Hey too many tangents to cover, the discussion is great, Remember seperation of Church and State doesnt mean no reference to God in our monuments, dollar, or pledge. I am not a right wing christian, I am a conservative. The Degradation of all references to God in our historical songs, pledges, and monuments by groups like the ACLU destroys the fabric by which this country was built on. Their true agenda is to tear down this nation and replace it with a no borders, no language free zone. Folks on the left (and from what steve writes he is more to the left than be central) have given themselves this name of progressives (MSNBC) People like Chris Mathews constantly refers to progressives, (not the left) And so I have picked this term of progressives as the new left, to make people not feel ashamed of their views. Funny when most folks are young they tend to follow the left side of the aisle, not realizing the damage government has done to our society. The last democrat that had convervative values was John F. Kennedy...He believed in smaller government and fiscal conservatism. Unfortunately when Lyndon Johnson took the reigns our great society and government will take care of you syndrom escalated. (hince welfare) and look what we have, generations of welfare moms, dads, and children. Medicaid also started and that is when medical cost sky-rocketed. As soon as government got its hands into the pie, the unscrupulous found the suckers in government to charge what ever they could get. Historically the Government has not successfully ran a single organization and maintained their budget without constant increases....Oh and guess what, they produce nothing. So now we are in a major mess, spent too much, no jobs probably in reality 14% unemployment (except in DC)

and no solutions to the impending cliff that we are about to fall off to financial disaster. With the huge increase of illegal immigrants (do again to our do nothing government) we become a third world country while those countries surpass us in growth, education, and technology. My poor grandchildren now have to have 50 plus shots because of this out of control health epidemics from the illegals...Wow used to have to get these shots to go to third world countries. Now you dont even have to travel.

NC your views are exceptional, but exactly where has OBAMA stopped any of this financial crisis? He has grown government by 30% and increased our debt a record 14.3 trillion dollars. That with the lost of the gold standard and fixed budgets is causing the dollar to look no better than what they did in Europe before World War II and barrels of money were worthless...worth more for feeding a fire to warm your hands. That my friend is where we are heading if the spending is not cut. The market is nervous because of this tit and tat between the congress and Obama, but if the debt ceiling isnt frozen than we will have the same problem 6 months from now. This is a moment in history to stop this madness. Hey I just as everyone else have a tremendous amount to loose. But we certainly dont want to end up like Greece, Spain, etc. Heck the SEIU will have to stop work to do more rioting like in those countries..(by the way wifey is a member, but completely disagrees with their motives).

The can as OBAMA said should not be kicked down the road, great words, but no action...Funny at times he says things that make sense, but he never commits...He is truely can not be trusted.

So now we have the giants (in their minds) fighting this battle for power...the left (progressives) and the right (Christian conservatives)(oh sorry right wing radical christians) That shows you what we have come to, a bunch of mud slingers with no possibility of solving real problems in the real world. Kind of makes you proud to be American. (the new emerging third world country)

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I think the point your missing is that the debt was going to increase REGARDLESS...If you look at the past, and now the present, the increase in debt was inevitable. The money has to come from somewhere.

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Remember seperation of Church and State doesnt mean no reference to God in our monuments, dollar, or pledge. I am not a right wing christian, I am a conservative. The Degradation of all references to God in our historical songs, pledges, and monuments by groups like the ACLU destroys the fabric by which this country was built on.

Your opinion. Anyways, like I said if the Christian right would lay off their war on America's youth, I think you'd find people wouldn't care so much about the word "God" being thrown around. Much like if we didn't try and control their land and way of life, you'd find radical muslims wouldn't care so much about us either.

Folks on the left (and from what steve writes he is more to the left than be central)

See, this is the problem. Because I am not religious, and don't think the government should legislate people's lifestyles and have a pragmatic view of the cultural changes that are occurring in our country...I'm "on the left"? I have not made one statement in here about fiscal policy or anything of that nature. THAT is the problem with the conservative movement in the United States. If you don't believe in God...you can't be conservative regardless of what your record has shown.

My poor grandchildren now have to have 50 plus shots because of this out of control health epidemics from the illegals...Wow used to have to get these shots to go to third world countries. Now you dont even have to travel.

Whats your source for the statement that illegal aliens have brought "health epidemics" to our country?

The market is nervous because of this tit and tat between the congress and Obama, but if the debt ceiling isnt frozen than we will have the same problem 6 months from now.

See, you don't understand what the debt ceiling is. The money has already been spent, failing to raise the debt ceiling simply will cause us to default on that debt, that money we have ALREADY spent, a default that will cause the US to loose its top credit rating and endanger the stability of the debt we already owe to other countries. So much of how the modern global economy works is tied up in the availability of super-assured bonds that our triple A rating provides. We simply don't know what will happen to the global economy if we default.

The government won't be able to pay a good chunk of its bills, including potentially pay to soldiers, retirees, etc. Failing to raise the debt ceiling is akin to telling our country's creditors "We know we spent the money, but we're not going to pay". Its like running up a credit card and never paying the bill.

Again, this is money ALREADY SPENT. Why do you think the GOP has taken default off the table?

We can raise the debt ceiling, and still work on trying to bring down the deficit...but not raising the debt ceiling is NOT an option. NOBODY thinks this deficit spending can continue, but we can't just shut it off because the economy is still fragile. We need to draw it down over time.

And like it or not, we NEED to raise taxes on those who can pay. My taxes would get raised, I'm not running up and down the street jumping for joy over it...but we don't have any choice.

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I think the point your missing is that the debt was going to increase REGARDLESS...If you look at the past, and now the present, the increase in debt was inevitable. The money has to come from somewhere.

Where exactly is that money going to come from? The more we tax the more than spend...They cant balance a checkbook...That like saying Josh you need to give me 50 dollars out of your hundred so I can support this or that...then next week saying hey Josh I need 10 more...Did your wage increase the extra 10 (no) but they dont stop...Their idea of balancing a budget is spend it all so that next year you can ask for more, even though by the end of the year you didnt spend it....I have seen this. Wouldnt it be better to run it like a business and say hey for every 10% you save on your budget we will give a bonus of say 1% to be divided amongst the employees as an incentive to not spend like drunken sailors (sorry shipmates) ....

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Remember seperation of Church and State doesnt mean no reference to God in our monuments, dollar, or pledge. I am not a right wing christian, I am a conservative. The Degradation of all references to God in our historical songs, pledges, and monuments by groups like the ACLU destroys the fabric by which this country was built on.

Your opinion. Anyways, like I said if the Christian right would lay off their war on America's youth, I think you'd find people wouldn't care so much about the word "God" being thrown around. Much like if we didn't try and control their land and way of life, you'd find radical muslims wouldn't care so much about us either.

That is not opinion,read the constitution....

Folks on the left (and from what steve writes he is more to the left than be central)

See, this is the problem. Because I am not religious, and don't think the government should legislate people's lifestyles and have a pragmatic view of the cultural changes that are occurring in our country...I'm "on the left"? I have not made one statement in here about fiscal policy or anything of that nature. THAT is the problem with the conservative movement in the United States. If you don't believe in God...you can't be conservative regardless of what your record has shown.

not true, I dont care if you believe in God or not, that is your right that my constitution has given you. I know many folks that dont believe in God, and they are conservative. They believe just as you do in doing right, and have moral values...

My poor grandchildren now have to have 50 plus shots because of this out of control health epidemics from the illegals...Wow used to have to get these shots to go to third world countries. Now you dont even have to travel.

Whats your source for the statement that illegal aliens have brought "health epidemics" to our country?

I called the CDC and received this as the reason we are having these problems in the health industry...Whooping cough is now an epidemic in many states do to the illegals not having the proper vacinations.

The market is nervous because of this tit and tat between the congress and Obama, but if the debt ceiling isnt frozen than we will have the same problem 6 months from now.

See, you don't understand what the debt ceiling is. The money has already been spent, failing to raise the debt ceiling simply will cause us to default on that debt, that money we have ALREADY spent, a default that will cause the US to loose its top credit rating and endanger the stability of the debt we already owe to other countries. So much of how the modern global economy works is tied up in the availability of super-assured bonds that our triple A rating provides. We simply don't know what will happen to the global economy if we default.

The government won't be able to pay a good chunk of its bills, including potentially pay to soldiers, retirees, etc. Failing to raise the debt ceiling is akin to telling our country's creditors "We know we spent the money, but we're not going to pay". Its like running up a credit card and never paying the bill.

That is the problem, cant you see we are spending more than we have.? We have to borrow 40% of every dollar we spend...If you have $100 dollars in your checkbook, do you consistantly spend $130? When do you think you will have to quit spending before you go broke.?

Again, this is money ALREADY SPENT. Why do you think the GOP has taken default off the table?

We can raise the debt ceiling, and still work on trying to bring down the deficit...but not raising the debt ceiling is NOT an option. NOBODY thinks this deficit spending can continue, but we can't just shut it off because the economy is still fragile. We need to draw it down over time.

That is the problem, Our wonderful representatives still have folks that think spending is the only way to solve the economies problems...And quite frankly they have lost control on where it went.

And like it or not, we NEED to raise taxes on those who can pay. My taxes would get raised, I'm not running up and down the street jumping for joy over it...but we don't have any choice.

Yes, raise the taxes and follow the cycle that has gone on too long..Do you really think raising taxes will stop the spending.? There needs to be a balanced buget amendment. Have you really figured out exactly what you pay in taxes, not just income, but gas, electricity, telephone, sales tax, property tax, etc....Really sit down and you will be stunned. I personally am for TAX reform going to either a use tax or flat tax...Then I expect government to balance their checkbook...hey maybe we cant help out tim/buk/ fue in some foreign country next year...Oh and sorry, but welfare to work means the goal is work, not welfare for the rest of your life.

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Yes, raise the taxes and follow the cycle that has gone on too long..Do you really think raising taxes will stop the spending.? There needs to be a balanced buget amendment. Have you really figured out exactly what you pay in taxes, not just income, but gas, electricity, telephone, sales tax, property tax, etc....Really sit down and you will be stunned. I personally am for TAX reform going to either a use tax or flat tax...Then I expect government to balance their checkbook...hey maybe we cant help out tim/buk/ fue in some foreign country next year...Oh and sorry, but welfare to work means the goal is work, not welfare for the rest of your life.

I don't disagree with any of that, but what you have to realize is that we have to temper the speed at which we move towards those things with the still fragile recovering economy. We can't just stop the spending right now...

It is not just "business as usual" in America, or anywhere in the world for that matter...

The goal would be to reduce spending and increase revenues to where we wouldn't have to raise the debt ceiling next time...but this time the money has been spent...it MUST be raised, and it will be raised.

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I don't have the seniority that the rest of you do, but I'm going to add my opinion to the others because I'm ready to throw-up.

Lenore, I am particularly nauseated at your recounting of your Viet Nam era experience at the recruiting station and your talk about those of you who served in the military and those who didn't and those who didn't spit on the flag. You tell Josh that unfortunately he has no rights and that his leaders, i.e., Obama,will be sure to make mistakes. I am a product of the 1960's, and in addition to you, hundreds of thousands of men served and died in Nam, and a lot of them were from my hometown and my graduating class. You were not the only one who suffered indignities and or worse. My point is that people all over bothe hemispheres suffered greatly during that time. It isn't all about you.

You have written about how awful a place this country is and who is responsible for every fault. Yet, you have not put forth one single thing that is positive about the United States. Why in the hell do you live here? Just so you can !Removed! and whine?

The country was not founded on Christian principles. It was founded on federalist principles.

The Anglicans, Deist, 2 Methodist, and Catholics that were part of the so called "Founders" DID insist on a separation of state and religion. There is no actual wording in the constitution that says church and state.

Every thing you write is selfish. You don't care about the future of the country as much as you care about hating others that are different from you. You spread your half truths and innuendos to make yourself feel powerful, like your the only one who knows the real truth. Every day Limbaugh, Fox News, Laura Ingram, Glen Beck, all feed the chain letter clan more drivel to keep the conspiracy theories

alive.

To make my position clear:

I voted for Pres. Obama

I will vote for him again

The Bible is not divinely inspired or auto-written

Religion is poison to government

A womans body is nobody else's business. Do you want someone telling you what you can do with your !Removed!?

My wife is a Hospital Administrator; The Healthcare Bill helps millions of uninsured.

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Yes, raise the taxes and follow the cycle that has gone on too long..Do you really think raising taxes will stop the spending.? There needs to be a balanced buget amendment. Have you really figured out exactly what you pay in taxes, not just income, but gas, electricity, telephone, sales tax, property tax, etc....Really sit down and you will be stunned. I personally am for TAX reform going to either a use tax or flat tax...Then I expect government to balance their checkbook...hey maybe we cant help out tim/buk/ fue in some foreign country next year...Oh and sorry, but welfare to work means the goal is work, not welfare for the rest of your life.

I don't disagree with any of that, but what you have to realize is that we have to temper the speed at which we move towards those things with the still fragile recovering economy. We can't just stop the spending right now...

It is not just "business as usual" in America, or anywhere in the world for that matter...

The goal would be to reduce spending and increase revenues to where we wouldn't have to raise the debt ceiling next time...but this time the money has been spent...it MUST be raised, and it will be raised.

And I believe that has been offered (I dont agree with raising the limit) But OBAMA said he will veto it because he will not sign a balanced budget admendment. I personally would rather see government shut down, pay only social security, our military, and the interest on our debt. It is time for Congress to grow up and recognize what they have done. We didnt do it, they did. Sometimes idiots need a smack in the side of the head before you can get their attention. Congress needs to wake up...Hey it may be the first time in their tenure that they actually had to work, and solve real problems. The queens and kings have bled us dry. Kind of like farming the same land year and year and depleting the minerals until the soil no longer produces...We are in for a great "dust bowl"

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I don't have the seniority that the rest of you do, but I'm going to add my opinion to the others because I'm ready to throw-up.

"typical answer from the left..."

Lenore, I am particularly nauseated at your recounting of your Viet Nam era experience at the recruiting station and your talk about those of you who served in the military and those who didn't and those who didn't spit on the flag. You tell Josh that unfortunately he has no rights and that his leaders, i.e., Obama,will be sure to make mistakes. I am a product of the 1960's, and in addition to you, hundreds of thousands of men served and died in Nam, and a lot of them were from my hometown and my graduating class. You were not the only one who suffered indignities and or worse. My point is that people all over bothe hemispheres suffered greatly during that time. It isn't all about you.

"Never said it was about me, Read carefully I said our leaders will make mistakes, and sometimes not."

You have written about how awful a place this country is and who is responsible for every fault. Yet, you have not put forth one single thing that is positive about the United States. Why in the hell do you live here? Just so you can !Removed! and whine?

"No I have said I am in dispair at the turn that our nation has taken, I still believe there is hope. You know why? Because of young people like Josh, that still have the desire for improving our nation. It is time for the old guard in politics (including OBAMA because he is a puppet under their control) to be replaced with people that love our nation...not these radicals that he has appointed in his cabinet. Those folks are from my generation, left over's that never held a real job...Only bent on destroying our society. They think government should be the mother, father, and controller of our lives."

The country was not founded on Christian principles. It was founded on federalist principles.

The Anglicans, Deist, 2 Methodist, and Catholics that were part of the so called "Founders" DID insist on a separation of state and religion. There is no actual wording in the constitution that says church and state.

"Exactly....The guarantee was for free men to be able to worship in what ever belief fit them without governmental interference....

So why does the ACLU demand we remove what is important to others...Just as you progressives feel you have freedom of choice, then so be it with our rights to have our monuments, currency, etc endowed with GOD on them..."

Every thing you write is selfish. You don't care about the future of the country as much as you care about hating others that are different from you. You spread your half truths and innuendos to make yourself feel powerful, like your the only one who knows the real truth. Every day Limbaugh, Fox News, Laura Ingram, Glen Beck, all feed the chain letter clan more drivel to keep the conspiracy theories

alive.

"It is only perceived as selfish because it isnt your view. I want the right of every man, woman and child to be able to reach any potential that they have without government interference. If that is selfish, than you need to read the Dictionary....I am not self centered, I want to be relieved of the burden that government is putting on my children, grandchildren and family. And guess what I want you too to be relieved of that burden...We are over taxed and have too many regulations which is killing our industry and destroying jobs. Without jobs, we loose our self confidence. "

To make my position clear:

I voted for Pres. Obama

I will vote for him again

The Bible is not divinely inspired or auto-written

Religion is poison to government

A womans body is nobody else's business. Do you want someone telling you what you can do with your !Removed!?

My wife is a Hospital Administrator; The Healthcare Bill helps millions of uninsured.

Sorry, cant help you with your love for Obama

The bible is a great book whether percieved as devine or as a masterpiece

Excessive government is poison to the health of our nation

A woman body belongs to her, but the government support of Abortion is wrong

I have spoke to many hospital administrators, and health cost are going up, because the problem was not fixed...It is a multi part problem with a need for real problem solving, start tort reform. Then follow the budgets and missuse of funds, and poor billing practices...eliminate the pharmesulticals control on price fixing. There is a huge problem, and Obama would not even let the other views be heard or accepted....Insurance and Medicare are also a major contributor to cost, When was the last time the government balanced anything?

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Hey too many tangents to cover, the discussion is great, Remember seperation of Church and State doesnt mean no reference to God in our monuments, dollar, or pledge. I am not a right wing christian, I am a conservative. The Degradation of all references to God in our historical songs, pledges, and monuments by groups like the ACLU destroys the fabric by which this country was built on. Their true agenda is to tear down this nation and replace it with a no borders, no language free zone. Folks on the left (and from what steve writes he is more to the left than be central) have given themselves this name of progressives (MSNBC) People like Chris Mathews constantly refers to progressives, (not the left) And so I have picked this term of progressives as the new left, to make people not feel ashamed of their views. Funny when most folks are young they tend to follow the left side of the aisle, not realizing the damage government has done to our society. The last democrat that had convervative values was John F. Kennedy...He believed in smaller government and fiscal conservatism. Unfortunately when Lyndon Johnson took the reigns our great society and government will take care of you syndrom escalated. (hince welfare) and look what we have, generations of welfare moms, dads, and children. Medicaid also started and that is when medical cost sky-rocketed. As soon as government got its hands into the pie, the unscrupulous found the suckers in government to charge what ever they could get. Historically the Government has not successfully ran a single organization and maintained their budget without constant increases....Oh and guess what, they produce nothing. So now we are in a major mess, spent too much, no jobs probably in reality 14% unemployment (except in DC)

and no solutions to the impending cliff that we are about to fall off to financial disaster. With the huge increase of illegal immigrants (do again to our do nothing government) we become a third world country while those countries surpass us in growth, education, and technology. My poor grandchildren now have to have 50 plus shots because of this out of control health epidemics from the illegals...Wow used to have to get these shots to go to third world countries. Now you dont even have to travel.

NC your views are exceptional, but exactly where has OBAMA stopped any of this financial crisis? He has grown government by 30% and increased our debt a record 14.3 trillion dollars. That with the lost of the gold standard and fixed budgets is causing the dollar to look no better than what they did in Europe before World War II and barrels of money were worthless...worth more for feeding a fire to warm your hands. That my friend is where we are heading if the spending is not cut. The market is nervous because of this tit and tat between the congress and Obama, but if the debt ceiling isnt frozen than we will have the same problem 6 months from now. This is a moment in history to stop this madness. Hey I just as everyone else have a tremendous amount to loose. But we certainly dont want to end up like Greece, Spain, etc. Heck the SEIU will have to stop work to do more rioting like in those countries..(by the way wifey is a member, but completely disagrees with their motives).

The can as OBAMA said should not be kicked down the road, great words, but no action...Funny at times he says things that make sense, but he never commits...He is truely can not be trusted.

So now we have the giants (in their minds) fighting this battle for power...the left (progressives) and the right (Christian conservatives)(oh sorry right wing radical christians) That shows you what we have come to, a bunch of mud slingers with no possibility of solving real problems in the real world. Kind of makes you proud to be American. (the new emerging third world country)

I don't completely disagree with some of your views Lenore. In fact, I think you and I probably agree more than disagree. I'm not saying Obama has stopped any of this financial crisis. Obama has led a presidency so far that has mostly been "reactionary" to events. Action vs Reaction. One creates, one responds. I think that is the "rub" that people are feeling now. Other than healthcare, I'm not quite sure I know of any policy he has thought of that wasn't a "reaction" to current events. He talks a big game, but can't get it done. Some of that though has to do with the Repulicans come back to power in the last round of elections. I don't like it when one party rules the roost. It's too dangerous, and in my opinion, that is when you're heading for the cliff. Power is like a rubber band. You can stretch it, but if you forget that it'll snap back when you let go (every 4 or 8 years), you end up stretching too far. That's what happens when only one side of the isle runs the show completely. And, that's when this train gets going too fast. That's what happened with Bush's term, and we got going way too fast and crashed. All it takes is just one wheel to hop the track (housing derivates this time).

50 shots? Come on man. I've got two kids. If your grandkids need 50 shots, then my heart goes to you and your family, because there is an underlining reason beyond just being a child.

In terms of the generational difference that Josh speaks about, I agree with that completely. It's just part of passing the torch. I'm 37 years old. I remember the moment MTV showed up, clearly (Video Killed The Radio Star). I remember worrying that I would get caught by my mom while watching Madonna videos (she was an ace with a wooden spoon buddy! I swear she had her NRA license with that thing!). Now, fast forward two generations, and I can't believe what I hear on TV during prime-time. I watched a rerun of Two & a Half Men last night, could not believe my ears. MTV is kiddie !Removed!, and over 100 channels of my cable tv have titles like "Hot Mom Next Door Needs 18 Yr. Old..." It makes me sick! And, it makes me realize that I'm now a passing generation in that regard. I do agree that Governmnent influence has played a part in this though, with the FCC allowing it to air. But, at the end of the day, it's my responsiblity to make sure I change the channel, not my elected official(s).

Progressives, Lefties, Righties, Conservatives, Teabaggers (oops, tea partiers), and whatever else we can label ourselves as - represent nothing more than the core value of what makes this country great....Freedom of choice! Progressives are mostly of a younger demographic, because at that age, your whole life is in front of you, not behind you. As a progressive, you're "working to acquire", you're in the rat race, you have nothing to look at but what is in front of you. You haven't quite hit that "benchmark" of your life where the rest of it will be compared to. Conservatives are mostly older, a bit more established, and have a few more battle scars to show for their efforts. They've made it to that comfort zone of their lives and don't want to risk loosing it. They've made big bets on themselves and have it "hanging out there" hoping it doesn't get clipped. An example would be having kids, or too far along to alter your retirement plans and contributions. I'm a conservative for that reason, and another as well - my limitations of time and understanding to comprehend much of what the progressives are talking about. I'll admit that if I don't have the time to spend on learning something new, I tend to reject it in general. But, that's not only my fault...it's also our government's fault. Case in point - my comment earlier about Obama's healthcare package and the democrats failure to explain it in "American" terms. You know how many government lease contracts for real estate I read in a year? A lot. Let me tell you, with absolute honesty....That AIN'T english they're speaking to eachother! We've got an army of Harvard lawyers at our fingertips around here, and they too struggle to understand it, at $925 an hour rate.

Some of the fabric of this country's existence in general comes from the fleeing of European Religious Prosecution. Freedom of religion was a big part of our discovery as a nation, and a big part of our war with Britian for our independence in general. To revert back to it, would be disrespectful to all of the lives lost who have defended us against it. Including in recent memory. It's also the backbone for our wars in Iraq. Had we invaded and said "you're all going to become Christians", we'd of lost in the first 48 hours. Our ability to invade such a hot-bed of religious beliefs, and earn the respect of much of the population in doing so, is probably the greatest example of our religous belief system this, the youngest county on the block, has ever demonstrated. And...all at the hands of a religious Texan...Go figure.

I absolutley agree with SWO on the budget mess. The money is already spent. I think what the republicans are doing though is telling Obama to create an iron-clad insurance policy that proves we're not going to be right back were we are today by Thanksgiving. I think it's pretty clear to many now, that Obama's "word" isn't exactly trustworthy in certain areas. To say "We'll stop buying the candy, I promise, I just need a little more money for this last purchase" doesn't sit well with anyone. BUT, I think it needs to be mentioned that Obama's past experiences aren't exactly a pedigree for leadership. Remember, this was a big topic 3 years ago. His resume isn't exactly one of a fiscal leader. And here in Chicago, only a fool would think whatever he did helped in any way. Illinois & California are the two worst states in the country right now fiscally. The difference between the two, is all off the major metros in California (tax payers), vs. Chicago for the entire state of Illinois. Just like the state of Kansas. One county in the state of Kansas is responsible for nearly 90% of the state's revenue stream, Johnson County in Overland Park. One county. I know, because I use to live there. I graduated HS only a few blocks away from one of our members here on LOC. Mr. Hermann Cain likes to say he was the man of the KC Fed Bank. He was, for 12 months. One county folks...one single county.

Abortion - Lenore, go have a drink. Don't even bring that up around here. It's like driving 200mph in a cul-de-sac. :cheers:

In terms of national debt obligations - Let us not forget that we not only had a balanced budget, but a surplus of cash as well in 2000 when Clinton left office. Let us also not forget that he came into power in 1993, right in the teeth of the worst recession this country had seen to that date. That one, was created in a very similiar fashion as this one - "commercial" real estate (CRE). Plus, Dessert Storm had just happened as well, our first real attempt at war since Nam. Clinton cut the budget, and raised taxes, and it worked. He also got the heck out of the way of the private sector, and believed in the American people to do the right thing. That is an element that I haven't seen from this democratic party, and in my opinion, is the sole reason why we're still in economic dire straights. CRE learned it's lesson, and the PRIVATE sector created mechanisms and policies shortly thereafter to safe guard it from making those mistakes again. Not until three years ago where those mechanisms and policies actually put to the test. Guess what....they worked, beautifully. There was a moment in 2009 where they were tested very heavily in the court system, when a company called GGP (out of Chicago) took all of their assets into bankruptcy court. GGP is a big retail mall owner/operator. One of the biggest in the country, if not world. They tried to do a (1992), and got stopped dead in their tracts by those policies and mechanisms. GGP tried to make themselves look better, by trying to crash the CRE industry in general. Had they been successful, we might have truly gone into a depression. Now....there isn't a lender on the planet who knows what they're doing that will return their phone calls as they try to emerge from bankruptcy. We've been called by them several times. We put them in the "Donald" category around here. Trump is scum, and so is GGP. When the going get's tough, these two don't get going, they get lawyers and play the blame game. And...they lose.

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He talks a big game, but can't get it done.

This I agree with 100%. Man I don't think I have time to get in on this but...err.

OK...I consider myself conservative. I voted for Bush twice, voted for McCain. I think Bush could have done a much better job while in office. I still don't understand the appeal that Obama has on people. Me personally I see through his BS…as NC put talks a big game, but can’t get it done. He is a extremely gifted speaker. But when put on the spot he is no where near as refined as he is when someone else writes his speeches and he reads them from a teleprompter. Basically I feel that he is a good actor and speaker. Bill Clinton was too. Although I do think old slick wily actually believed most of what he said when he said it. Obama seems to me that he is the type of person that is just going to tell you what you need to hear to get the job done…EAT our PEAS…I would like to show him what I think of his peas!

Now this is going to be a little touchy but I think that voting for someone just because they are black is racist too. Do you know what would happen if white people, or blue people had t shirts and signs that said let's get a white/blue back in the white house. People came out and said publicly on TV programs that they had never voted but since there was a black person running they were voting to get him in. Movie stars and actors supporting him why…what was the appeal that he had because he was black? I must have missed all of the things that made this guy the best thing since sliced bread. See two can play this game. If you dislike Obama it must be because he is black? I just don’t get it…I would support a black, green, pink, or orange person if I thought that they were qualified. I have so many black customers and people that I deal with on a regular basis…I just don’t get it. I don’t consider them black…I don’t think they consider me white. I am David…they are Jack or John or whoever. Personally I don't think Obama had the qualifications to lead this country and I think due to the lack of experience that he had he has done just about as bad a job as I could have imagined. From the news reports that I have seen on CBS, and FOX reports that not only his staff is larger than any other president by far…but his wife’s staff is lager than any other 1st ladies staff too. And you know what I DON’T give a flying ______. Where are the jobs…that’s right shovel ready ones? What are you doing to improve the economy…WAKE up…

The question was asked what has Obama done that has affected business? Well...I heard through a silly chain letter that starting 2013 there will be a new 3.8% tax when you sell your home that was put in the health care bill? Now I saw this in a silly chain letter that I must admit I do find SILLY…I usually don’t read them…but this one caught my eye. I read it and then I went online to check it out. Well guess what it isn’t entirely true…yes there will be a tax for high income earners and such but the typical home sales will not be taxes this 3.8% http://www.factcheck.org/2010/04/a-38-percent-sales-tax-on-your-home/ IMHO this isn't going to help sell more homes...or get the prices of homes to rise and has no place in the health care bill…but this is what politicians do…they pass laws that you need NC’s 900+ /hr attorneys to read. Home prices must start rising it has to happen. There are so many people so far under water that they are just walking away from homes. Unemployment rates are not coming down...that isn't helping anyone’s business. Health care bill which I have been to a few meeting on...THE FREAKING POLITICIANS don't under stand it...Speaking of the health care bill the biggest problem I have personally with the health care bill is IT did nothing to address the cost of health care. TORT reform. If people could afford health insurance most people would pay for it. I have to switch my businesses plan this year to a high deductible plan because of the premiums. The big problem is the people who are paying for their health insurance are already paying for the people who don't have health insurance now through programs like Medicaid and higher cost at the hospital. Yes it is sad when you have a young child that is sick and needs help. It is sad when anyone anywhere in the world is not given the absolute best care possible. It is just that SAD…people need to start taking care of their selves and if they truly can’t then the government should offer assistance not a paycheck with health insurance! As a small business owner myself...I have seen my health care rise, Unemployment rates rise, electric bill rise, and just about every other cost associated with doing business rise as well. All I hear about is the government trying to raise more revenue...increase fees, and taxes. WOW the bay bridge they want to raise the toll to 5.00 from 2.50? Please tell me why should we just keep giving politicians more and more money when they are so wasteful with what they have now.

NOW back to work! DARN you LOC politicians!

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Sorry guys, I am out of town seeing my new grandbaby....Thank you for your observations. A few have chipped in but I am afraid some have scared the rest off from venturing into this posting. Well lets see if our nation goes down the toilet with whatever decision Obama and Congress make before August....Why are government officials always pulling the scare card on Seniors and Military when they dont get their way.? Same thing happens with local decisions, they always say they are going to cut police, fire, and education. I swear why dont they just deal with the budget truthfully?

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Sorry guys, I am out of town seeing my new grandbaby....Thank you for your observations. A few have chipped in but I am afraid some have scared the rest off from venturing into this posting. Well lets see if our nation goes down the toilet with whatever decision Obama and Congress make before August....Why are government officials always pulling the scare card on Seniors and Military when they dont get their way.? Same thing happens with local decisions, they always say they are going to cut police, fire, and education. I swear why dont they just deal with the budget truthfully?

"Always?, "they always"?, "Same thing happens"?. You take every action, statement, event and plan and automatically use "Always" to describe it without the facts or documentation to cite all of these occasions. One thing that's in the news today is not necessarily connected to an event in the news tomorrow. Regardless of how badly you may want to paint the "Progressives" with a broad brush, it can't be done. Anymore than you can not group all Republicans together and claim they have a group think ability. The current session proves that. Thank somebody.

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And I believe that has been offered (I dont agree with raising the limit) But OBAMA said he will veto it because he will not sign a balanced budget admendment. I personally would rather see government shut down, pay only social security, our military, and the interest on our debt. It is time for Congress to grow up and recognize what they have done. We didnt do it, they did. Sometimes idiots need a smack in the side of the head before you can get their attention. Congress needs to wake up...Hey it may be the first time in their tenure that they actually had to work, and solve real problems. The queens and kings have bled us dry. Kind of like farming the same land year and year and depleting the minerals until the soil no longer produces...We are in for a great "dust bowl"

See, you don't really understand what the debt limit is. If the limit is not raised, that is precisely what will NOT happen. We're not discussing shutting the government down, that was two months ago.

He won't sign a balanced budget amendment because we can't afford to do that right now, not without making cuts that could potentially push the economy back into recession.

Personally? I think he should grow a pair and raise the debt limit through the 14th Amendment and be done with it.

A woman body belongs to her, but the government support of Abortion is wrong

And Government doesn't support Abortion...

I have spoke to many hospital administrators, and health cost are going up, because the problem was not fixed.

It hasn't even gone into effect yet. Its impossible to know if it will succeed or fail.

I heard through a silly chain letter that starting 2013 there will be a new 3.8% tax when you sell your home that was put in the health care bill? Now I saw this in a silly chain letter that I must admit I do find SILLY…I usually don’t read them…but this one caught my eye. I read it and then I went online to check it out. Well guess what it isn’t entirely true…yes there will be a tax for high income earners and such but the typical home sales will not be taxes this 3.8% http://www.factcheck...x-on-your-home/ IMHO this isn't going to help sell more homes...or get the prices of homes to rise and has no place in the health care bill…but this is what politicians do

This is a perfect example of the danger of these chain letters that sensationalize one aspect of something without telling the full story.

Odds are nobody here is going to ever see this 3.8% tax. Even though I'm sure we have many members who make over $200k individually or $250k jointly, they have to have a gain over and above $250k individually or $500k jointly. I can tell you even here in high priced DC where we sell plenty of $1M+ homes, it is VERY rare for a couple selling their primary residence to net enough profit to incur capital gains taxes, and even if they did, the 3.8% is only of the amount over that exemption. Now, this may impact some high income investors who sell properties without the benefit of any exemption, but there are MANY mechanisms we use to structure the transfers of this profit that circumvent the need to pay capital gains taxes. Those mechanisms may not get people out of paying this 3.8%, but thats kinda the point.

Its my professional opinion that this will have no impact on the real estate market whatsoever.

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And so the political blame game begins. Anyone see the tv tonight? Obama blaming the republicans, and vice versa. Republicans know that Obama will budge, because if he doesn't, he will become the first and only President in the nations history to default on a bill due. And will be seen as the leader who allowed the credit rating to slide. He, and his team, will be long gone. Democrats are pinned in a corner on this one. Obama IS the President, and the nation grew tired of his blaming everything bad on Bush already. He must bend, or go down in the history books as the President who destroyed the economy on a world stage. Doesn't matter who you think is right in this situation, he is the President. Blame will go to him. Should be an interesting week ahead!

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And I don't buy for a single second that social security checks and Medicare payments are at risk here. Those are votes! And he and his side of the table can't afford to lose any.

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And so the political blame game begins. Anyone see the tv tonight? Obama blaming the republicans, and vice versa. Republicans know that Obama will budge, because if he doesn't, he will become the first and only President in the nations history to default on a bill due. And will be seen as the leader who allowed the credit rating to slide. He, and his team, will be long gone. Democrats are pinned in a corner on this one. Obama IS the President, and the nation grew tired of his blaming everything bad on Bush already. He must bend, or go down in the history books as the President who destroyed the economy on a world stage. Doesn't matter who you think is right in this situation, he is the President. Blame will go to him. Should be an interesting week ahead!

I also watched it NC. I guess all I can say as I wasted a few more minutes of my life listening to his Exuses and BS.

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And I don't buy for a single second that social security checks and Medicare payments are at risk here. Those are votes! And he and his side of the table can't afford to lose any.

Same with military pay. Can he afford to lose the votes of 2.5 MILLION+ service members? I can assure you that not very many servicemembers will vote for him if the military pay stops.

In april, I thought I felt bad for the people over in Afghanistan and Iraq that might have to fight for freedom free of charge. Now I am one of those people.

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