Traction Control Software Failure (abs System)

[michaelamiller]

During cold conditions, slippery road, a slight application of the brakes caused my 2004 Lexus ES330 to skid into the side rail. No other car was involved, straight road. Has anyone else experienced similar failure of the ABS software? I am afraid to drive the car in similar conditions. Damage to car was extensive.

[1990LS400]

Why are you certain that your ABS caused the problem in "cold conditions, slippery road".

[nc211]

ABS working, or not working, won't help you on ice eitherway. I've gone over short bridges that apparently had a thin layer of ice on them (roads were fine), and spun out simply by taking my foot off the gas, causing the momentum to shift enough to lose traction.

[dcfish]

During cold conditions, slippery road, a slight application of the brakes caused my 2004 Lexus ES330 to skid into the side rail. No other car was involved, straight road. Has anyone else experienced similar failure of the ABS software? I am afraid to drive the car in similar conditions. Damage to car was extensive.

Driver error ? Psychology due to current events..............

[michaelamiller]

Why are you certain that your ABS caused the problem in "cold conditions, slippery road".

Because there is no other reason, momentum of the car would cause it to continue on a straight course if nothing else were present to change direction. Suppose one wheel locked while the others were free to rotate. The locked wheel would cause the spin I experienced. The application of slight breaking should insure that no wheel locked based on the ABS system software. Losing taction should only cause the vehicle to proceed in the direction of momentum, not change direction.

[1990LS400]

Because there is no other reason, momentum of the car would cause it to continue on a straight course if nothing else were present to change direction. Suppose one wheel locked while the others were free to rotate. The locked wheel would cause the spin I experienced. The application of slight breaking should insure that no wheel locked based on the ABS system software. Losing taction should only cause the vehicle to proceed in the direction of momentum, not change direction.

A few weeks ago we took I-435 on the west side of the Kansas City metro about 30 miles to KCI airport. It was an icy day and there must have been 100 cars off the road both in the median and off the shoulder into fields. I-435 on the west side of the Kansas City metro area is mostly as straight as an arrow with a few sections of very gentle, hardly noticable curves.

Many of the cars off the road were quite new and likely had ABS and some sort of stability control system. As we puttered along at no more than 35 mph and often slower, some people flew past us at over 70 mph. We saw a few of these people later sitting in their cars in the median or in adjoining farm fields. All the technology in the world couldn't save these people from themselves. I kept thinking: why are these people driving so fast when they can see all these cars off the road and tow trucks pulling them out? Duh! Darwin was right!

I've run off a road only once in 44 years of driving. It was on a perfectly straight section of I-70 in a rural area east of Kansas City. I was going too fast for the conditions. I was lucky there was nothing to hit and that I went down an embankment into a nice grassy field. That experience pretty much scared the crap out of me and I have since slowed way down when the roads are slick or even "greasy" from rain and dust.

I've had my "learning experience". Maybe this one is yours?

[michaelamiller]

Because there is no other reason, momentum of the car would cause it to continue on a straight course if nothing else were present to change direction. Suppose one wheel locked while the others were free to rotate. The locked wheel would cause the spin I experienced. The application of slight breaking should insure that no wheel locked based on the ABS system software. Losing taction should only cause the vehicle to proceed in the direction of momentum, not change direction.

A few weeks ago we took I-435 on the west side of the Kansas City metro about 30 miles to KCI airport. It was an icy day and there must have been 100 cars off the road both in the median and off the shoulder into fields. I-435 on the west side of the Kansas City metro area is mostly as straight as an arrow with a few sections of very gentle, hardly noticable curves.

Many of the cars off the road were quite new and likely had ABS and some sort of stability control system. As we puttered along at no more than 35 mph and often slower, some people flew past us at over 70 mph. We saw a few of these people later sitting in their cars in the median or in adjoining farm fields. All the technology in the world couldn't save these people from themselves. I kept thinking: why are these people driving so fast when they can see all these cars off the road and tow trucks pulling them out? Duh! Darwin was right!

I've run off a road only once in 44 years of driving. It was on a perfectly straight section of I-70 in a rural area east of Kansas City. I was going too fast for the conditions. I was lucky there was nothing to hit and that I went down an embankment into a nice grassy field. That experience pretty much scared the crap out of me and I have since slowed way down when the roads are slick or even "greasy" from rain and dust.

I've had my "learning experience". Maybe this one is yours?

I agree with your assesment and I too am extremely cautious under these conditions. At the time I was doing no more than 35 and thankfully so. Even at that speed hitting a guard rail can cause inmense damage. I have been driving some 50 years and have skidded; but never like this. This was a uncontrolable skid, which could only, in my opinion be caused by one of the front wheels locking. What worries me is the new software being installed that is supposed to prevent this appears to do the exact opposite. I believe by posting this, it will help in determining if others have the same experience, only then will some effort be made to correct the problem, and if non exists as may be the case, it will go a long way to make me feel confident that I am driving a safe vehilce. Best regards, Michael

[The G Man]

Well Michael, I for one will give you the benefit of the doubt. It seems like you might have some sort of problem with your stability control system. Is your car totaled? Sometimes cases like this is cause by the mismatch tire diameters or bad wheel rotation sensors.

[michaelamiller]

Well Michael, I for one will give you the benefit of the doubt. It seems like you might have some sort of problem with your stability control system. Is your car totaled? Sometimes cases like this is cause by the mismatch tire diameters or bad wheel rotation sensors.

Thanks, the car was not totaled, it was repaired at considerable cost. All tires are of the same diameter and are the original ones. The car is not used that much and has a total of about 24,000 miles. Tires were rotated at 20.000 miles. What are rotation sensors?

[The G Man]

Well Michael, I for one will give you the benefit of the doubt. It seems like you might have some sort of problem with your stability control system. Is your car totaled? Sometimes cases like this is cause by the mismatch tire diameters or bad wheel rotation sensors.

Thanks, the car was not totaled, it was repaired at considerable cost. All tires are of the same diameter and are the original ones. The car is not used that much and has a total of about 24,000 miles. Tires were rotated at 20.000 miles. What are rotation sensors?

They are the speed sensors on each tire, telling the comupter how fast each tire is spinning. Those sensors controls the ABS and the stability control. Usually when one of those sensors fails , you will get a warning light on your dash. Did you remember if you hear a beeping sound when you were sliding? When the stability control kicks in, you should get a warning light on the dash and a beeping sound.

It may also be one of your brakes caliper locking up, I would have that check out.

[nc211]

It may also be one of your brakes caliper locking up, I would have that check out.

That could be a real possiblity, especially in NJ with all of that road salt you guys have. Our 4runner is originally from NJ, and I can tell you first hand, the caliper piston on the front left side is so badly rusted from just a year in that weather, I have to replace it. I've never seen that before. I didn't replace it when I was doing the brake rotors about 18 months ago, but clearly need to do it now as I can tell there is a problem on that wheel. If they rust too badly "mine was actually starting to flake", the caliper piston can get a little skewy it's seat, and start to lock up.

[1990LS400]

Have we established whether or not this 2004 ES330 has VSC? Vehicle Stability Control was optional on the ES330 in 2004

If the car has VSC, the audible VSC alarm should have been beeping like crazy during the skid if the car wasn't travelling in the direction indicated by the steering wheel. ABS alone can't correct a skid but VSC usually will if the driver keeps the steering wheel pointed in the direction he wants to go.

[michaelamiller]

Why are you certain that your ABS caused the problem in "cold conditions, slippery road".

I have no proof that the ABS caused the problem - the only indication is that I applied the brakes, lightly, not for an emergency stop or the like, and the reaction was the complete spin out. At 30-35 mph this seems unwarrented. What concerns me in this situation is that I have written to Lexus twice, with no reply, and over a period of three months. I would like to hear what the "official" opinion is and if there are any other occurances so that I can be guided accordingly.

Thanks for your input.

Michael

[nc211]

Michael, this is sounding more and more like worn out brake caliper pistons or sticking calipers. You gently touched the brakes, but what happened is an uneven application of braking force, which would lead me to think something in the mechanics is sticking. A harder application of the brakes usually won't show this, but a gentle application, which relies on the lubrication of the mechanicals of the actual hardware, will show this, if indeed something has dried out or sticking. And again, you being in NJ, it is very likely road salt over the years has begun to take it's toll.

I recently replaced all the rotors and pads on my GS (a chicago car from day 1). I had to take a wire brush to some of those parts to get the surface rust off of certain components.

Also, you could have some ice buildup on one pad and not the other. If you haven't applied the brakes in a while, in cold damp situations, it's very likely that one wheel had a little drizzle to burn off before grabbing the rotor at the same level of force as the other side. It's pretty common for the right side of the car's wheels, specifically the front wheel, to take the most abuse, given it's proximetly to the edge of the road in general "debrie field".

I would say, before you start looking at the electronics of the car, too look at the mechanicals first. I just find it odd, that in light of all this media attention, that you car decides to start acting up under the same manner as these other, recalled cars. Especially under the fact the car has not acted this way in the 6 years of it's life (which is usually wear n' tear time on a Toyota).

[michaelamiller]

Well Michael, I for one will give you the benefit of the doubt. It seems like you might have some sort of problem with your stability control system. Is your car totaled? Sometimes cases like this is cause by the mismatch tire diameters or bad wheel rotation sensors.

Thanks, the car was not totaled, it was repaired at considerable cost. All tires are of the same diameter and are the original ones. The car is not used that much and has a total of about 24,000 miles. Tires were rotated at 20.000 miles. What are rotation sensors?

They are the speed sensors on each tire, telling the comupter how fast each tire is spinning. Those sensors controls the ABS and the stability control. Usually when one of those sensors fails , you will get a warning light on your dash. Did you remember if you hear a beeping sound when you were sliding? When the stability control kicks in, you should get a warning light on the dash and a beeping sound.

It may also be one of your brakes caliper locking up, I would have that check out.

I have a visual indication if the ABS system (traction control) is working, a yellow light flashes and two lines appear. There is no beeping sound and I don't have "stability control". There was not sufficient time to see the lights flashing for the traction control, the event happened so fast. In all previous conditions where I was in a skid condition on snow, I did observe the flashing lights but in this condition it was the application of the accelerator that caused this, never the brake, and I was always in control of the vehicle. I could correct the skid but turning the wheel in the opposite direction and dropping speed. In this case I lost control completely. I have checked the brake shoes and calipers, not sign of pitting, corrosions, rust, or any damage. I would welcome the opportunity for Lexus to make the same inspection to determine if there is a mechanical or software problem. In this respect I have tried to make contact. Do you know of an individual I could address this issue too? Thanks, Michael

[1990LS400]

Honestly Michael, I think you are wasting your time and emotional energy. Would you be bringing this up at all if not for the current "feeding fenzy" going on against Toyota?

ABS is a great feature but its main purpose is to help reduce stopping distances. It can not correct a skid and keep a car on track -- that is a function of stability control systems like VSC. ABS is really sort of a "stupid" system -- all it does is help you stop sooner ... usually. I drove a Lexus with ABS-only for 13 1/2 years and can assure you that there is an extraordinary mind boggling difference between driving a car with ABS-only and driving a car with ABS and VSC.

I frequently drive my current Lexus hard enough to invoke the VSC system -- particularly when it is raining and snowy. I don't do this only because it is fun (it is actually great fun!), but to nurture confidence in the system -- I like knowing that I can depend on VSC when I need it most.

Am I correct to assume that you were driving on snow/ice without winter tires when you crashed? If you were, then consider buying a set of true winter tires -- you can tell by the "mountain/snowflake" symbol on the tire side wall. I use Bridgestone Blizzak winter tires on my Lexus and there are other good brands and models that perform (almost) as well.

[eatingupblacktop]

Well Michael, I for one will give you the benefit of the doubt. It seems like you might have some sort of problem with your stability control system. Is your car totaled? Sometimes cases like this is cause by the mismatch tire diameters or bad wheel rotation sensors.

Thanks, the car was not totaled, it was repaired at considerable cost. All tires are of the same diameter and are the original ones. The car is not used that much and has a total of about 24,000 miles. Tires were rotated at 20.000 miles. What are rotation sensors?

They are the speed sensors on each tire, telling the comupter how fast each tire is spinning. Those sensors controls the ABS and the stability control. Usually when one of those sensors fails , you will get a warning light on your dash. Did you remember if you hear a beeping sound when you were sliding? When the stability control kicks in, you should get a warning light on the dash and a beeping sound.

It may also be one of your brakes caliper locking up, I would have that check out.

I have a visual indication if the ABS system (traction control) is working, a yellow light flashes and two lines appear. There is no beeping sound and I don't have "stability control". There was not sufficient time to see the lights flashing for the traction control, the event happened so fast. In all previous conditions where I was in a skid condition on snow, I did observe the flashing lights but in this condition it was the application of the accelerator that caused this, never the brake, and I was always in control of the vehicle. I could correct the skid but turning the wheel in the opposite direction and dropping speed. In this case I lost control completely. I have checked the brake shoes and calipers, not sign of pitting, corrosions, rust, or any damage. I would welcome the opportunity for Lexus to make the same inspection to determine if there is a mechanical or software problem. In this respect I have tried to make contact. Do you know of an individual I could address this issue too? Thanks, Michael

If you released the brake application and continued to skid, then the ABS is not the issue. ABS will only prevent a wheel from locking up if the rest of the system is working properly. If, as has been mentioned, you have a sticking caliper, the ABS will not prevent the wheel from locking up. It actually works to release brake application to wheel that has stopped moving. Easy enough to test the system. Find an empty and wet parking lot (for less resistance) and apply the brakes. You should get pulsation as soon as you start to skid. Let up on the brakes and you should stop the skid and the ABS. If you lost the ability to steer clear of the rail, then your hunch that a wheel locked up is most likely the case. What you need to do is test the pistons; to determine how much pressure is needed to push them back in. If they're stiff, then it wouldn't take much to lock up the wheels on an icy road. If you haven't done a caliper service in a while, now might be a good time.

[The G Man]

I have a visual indication if the ABS system (traction control) is working, a yellow light flashes and two lines appear. There is no beeping sound and I don't have "stability control". There was not sufficient time to see the lights flashing for the traction control, the event happened so fast. In all previous conditions where I was in a skid condition on snow, I did observe the flashing lights but in this condition it was the application of the accelerator that caused this, never the brake, and I was always in control of the vehicle. I could correct the skid but turning the wheel in the opposite direction and dropping speed. In this case I lost control completely. I have checked the brake shoes and calipers, not sign of pitting, corrosions, rust, or any damage. I would welcome the opportunity for Lexus to make the same inspection to determine if there is a mechanical or software problem. In this respect I have tried to make contact. Do you know of an individual I could address this issue too? Thanks, Michael

The stability control light should look like the back of a car with two S shape line behind it, you need to comfrim if your ES will in fact make a beeping sound when stability is active. I dont have any contact in Lexus, but I doubt they will listen to you now a day. Lexus is not what is once was, it is no longer as responsive to customers as they once was.

Like other have already stated, check the brake 1st, bring it to a independent mechanic and have it check out. Lexus is not going to troubleshoot this problem for you fro free unless you have a lawyer in tow. Its only the brakes you need to check out, an independent shop should be able to do the work properly and for short money.

[michaelamiller]

Honestly Michael, I think you are wasting your time and emotional energy. Would you be bringing this up at all if not for the current "feeding fenzy" going on against Toyota?

ABS is a great feature but its main purpose is to help reduce stopping distances. It can not correct a skid and keep a car on track -- that is a function of stability control systems like VSC. ABS is really sort of a "stupid" system -- all it does is help you stop sooner ... usually. I drove a Lexus with ABS-only for 13 1/2 years and can assure you that there is an extraordinary mind boggling difference between driving a car with ABS-only and driving a car with ABS and VSC.

I frequently drive my current Lexus hard enough to invoke the VSC system -- particularly when it is raining and snowy. I don't do this only because it is fun (it is actually great fun!), but to nurture confidence in the system -- I like knowing that I can depend on VSC when I need it most.

Am I correct to assume that you were driving on snow/ice without winter tires when you crashed? If you were, then consider buying a set of true winter tires -- you can tell by the "mountain/snowflake" symbol on the tire side wall. I use Bridgestone Blizzak winter tires on my Lexus and there are other good brands and models that perform (almost) as well.

Yes I would post and Yes I have written twice to Lexus on this issue. I sincerely feel that if we have these events and they remain unexplained all Lexus owners will loose. If something is wrong with the car and it is not fixed then the problem will occur again & again, while no other car was involved and we received no injury, the next person might not be so lucky. The tires I use are designed for winter driving and rated accordingly by Consumer Reports at the top of the list. I don't believe in using anything but the best, my choice of Lexus in example. Thanks for your reply. Michael

[michaelamiller]

Well Michael, I for one will give you the benefit of the doubt. It seems like you might have some sort of problem with your stability control system. Is your car totaled? Sometimes cases like this is cause by the mismatch tire diameters or bad wheel rotation sensors.

Thanks, the car was not totaled, it was repaired at considerable cost. All tires are of the same diameter and are the original ones. The car is not used that much and has a total of about 24,000 miles. Tires were rotated at 20.000 miles. What are rotation sensors?

They are the speed sensors on each tire, telling the comupter how fast each tire is spinning. Those sensors controls the ABS and the stability control. Usually when one of those sensors fails , you will get a warning light on your dash. Did you remember if you hear a beeping sound when you were sliding? When the stability control kicks in, you should get a warning light on the dash and a beeping sound.

It may also be one of your brakes caliper locking up, I would have that check out.

I have a visual indication if the ABS system (traction control) is working, a yellow light flashes and two lines appear. There is no beeping sound and I don't have "stability control". There was not sufficient time to see the lights flashing for the traction control, the event happened so fast. In all previous conditions where I was in a skid condition on snow, I did observe the flashing lights but in this condition it was the application of the accelerator that caused this, never the brake, and I was always in control of the vehicle. I could correct the skid but turning the wheel in the opposite direction and dropping speed. In this case I lost control completely. I have checked the brake shoes and calipers, not sign of pitting, corrosions, rust, or any damage. I would welcome the opportunity for Lexus to make the same inspection to determine if there is a mechanical or software problem. In this respect I have tried to make contact. Do you know of an individual I could address this issue too? Thanks, Michael

If you released the brake application and continued to skid, then the ABS is not the issue. ABS will only prevent a wheel from locking up if the rest of the system is working properly. If, as has been mentioned, you have a sticking caliper, the ABS will not prevent the wheel from locking up. It actually works to release brake application to wheel that has stopped moving. Easy enough to test the system. Find an empty and wet parking lot (for less resistance) and apply the brakes. You should get pulsation as soon as you start to skid. Let up on the brakes and you should stop the skid and the ABS. If you lost the ability to steer clear of the rail, then your hunch that a wheel locked up is most likely the case. What you need to do is test the pistons; to determine how much pressure is needed to push them back in. If they're stiff, then it wouldn't take much to lock up the wheels on an icy road. If you haven't done a caliper service in a while, now might be a good time.

Your suggested test sounds easy enough to perform and be assured that I will start looking for the wet day and empty parking lot. Can the pistons be tested independently by a Lexus dealer or service station? Is this a difficult or costly procedure? Is there anything that prevents the pistons, if stiff, from causing the wheels to lock? Your suggestions indicate a real understanding of the car and the mechanics. Thanks for your help. Michael

[1990LS400]

The tires I use are designed for winter driving and rated accordingly by Consumer Reports at the top of the list.

Which brand, model and size tire were you using? I saw that you have only 24,000 miles on your 04 ES; are your tires the original ones?

[eatingupblacktop]

Well Michael, I for one will give you the benefit of the doubt. It seems like you might have some sort of problem with your stability control system. Is your car totaled? Sometimes cases like this is cause by the mismatch tire diameters or bad wheel rotation sensors.

Thanks, the car was not totaled, it was repaired at considerable cost. All tires are of the same diameter and are the original ones. The car is not used that much and has a total of about 24,000 miles. Tires were rotated at 20.000 miles. What are rotation sensors?

They are the speed sensors on each tire, telling the comupter how fast each tire is spinning. Those sensors controls the ABS and the stability control. Usually when one of those sensors fails , you will get a warning light on your dash. Did you remember if you hear a beeping sound when you were sliding? When the stability control kicks in, you should get a warning light on the dash and a beeping sound.

It may also be one of your brakes caliper locking up, I would have that check out.

I have a visual indication if the ABS system (traction control) is working, a yellow light flashes and two lines appear. There is no beeping sound and I don't have "stability control". There was not sufficient time to see the lights flashing for the traction control, the event happened so fast. In all previous conditions where I was in a skid condition on snow, I did observe the flashing lights but in this condition it was the application of the accelerator that caused this, never the brake, and I was always in control of the vehicle. I could correct the skid but turning the wheel in the opposite direction and dropping speed. In this case I lost control completely. I have checked the brake shoes and calipers, not sign of pitting, corrosions, rust, or any damage. I would welcome the opportunity for Lexus to make the same inspection to determine if there is a mechanical or software problem. In this respect I have tried to make contact. Do you know of an individual I could address this issue too? Thanks, Michael

If you released the brake application and continued to skid, then the ABS is not the issue. ABS will only prevent a wheel from locking up if the rest of the system is working properly. If, as has been mentioned, you have a sticking caliper, the ABS will not prevent the wheel from locking up. It actually works to release brake application to wheel that has stopped moving. Easy enough to test the system. Find an empty and wet parking lot (for less resistance) and apply the brakes. You should get pulsation as soon as you start to skid. Let up on the brakes and you should stop the skid and the ABS. If you lost the ability to steer clear of the rail, then your hunch that a wheel locked up is most likely the case. What you need to do is test the pistons; to determine how much pressure is needed to push them back in. If they're stiff, then it wouldn't take much to lock up the wheels on an icy road. If you haven't done a caliper service in a while, now might be a good time.

Your suggested test sounds easy enough to perform and be assured that I will start looking for the wet day and empty parking lot. Can the pistons be tested independently by a Lexus dealer or service station? Is this a difficult or costly procedure? Is there anything that prevents the pistons, if stiff, from causing the wheels to lock? Your suggestions indicate a real understanding of the car and the mechanics. Thanks for your help. Michael

Though it's an easy check, for peace of mind, I would have a brake specialist, dealer, or an indy you trust do the assessment. It would take me about 10 min per wheel. I think it's an automatic minimum 1hr rate soon as you drive through the doors at a dealer. You could also go to a Toyota dealer instead of Lexus. Nevertheless,, money well spent. The only thing that will prevent sticking pistons is to do regular caliper service (or inspection at the very least) as preventative maintenance. Not at all expensive if you don't have to replace anything, and if you're regular you won't have to. You should also do a regular fluid change. Have them check the proportioning valve as well.

In future, when driving on or encountering an ice patch and you find yourself skidding when applying the brakes, try releasing the brake pedal to regain motion to the wheels and avoid any abrupt changes to the steering direction. I have never relied on ABS or Traction Control (I actually have it turned off all the time - in my '91 I can do a better job by just feathering the throttle). It keeps you on your toes and ready for anything. Something I do as a habit is to start gently sawing the steering wheel whenever the temps get to near freezing or at the first sign of ice/snow to see what kind of traction I have. This upsets drivers behind me I'm sure, but gives me the information I can use in determining the road conditions. Being forewarned eliminates having to deal with those nasty surprises.

[michaelamiller]

The tires I use are designed for winter driving and rated accordingly by Consumer Reports at the top of the list.

Which brand, model and size tire were you using? I saw that you have only 24,000 miles on your 04 ES; are your tires the original ones?

Machelin P215/60R16 94V all weather, the original tire.

[The G Man]

if your car went out of control by just tapping on the brakes, then its not the tires, its either the brakes or the stability system. I would start with the barke since its easier to check and much cheaper.

[1990LS400]

The tires I use are designed for winter driving and rated accordingly by Consumer Reports at the top of the list.

Which brand, model and size tire were you using? I saw that you have only 24,000 miles on your 04 ES; are your tires the original ones?

Machelin P215/60R16 94V all weather, the original tire.

You have the "Michelin Energy MXV4 Plus" -- not the "Michelin Primacy MXV4" that was rated the #1 performance all-season tire in the November 2009 Consumer Reports article.

I bought a set of Primacy MXV4 two months ago at Costco and will have them mounted shortly for Spring/Summer/Fall use -- April Fools Day until the weekend before Thanksgiving.

The Michelin Energys are still highly rated tires -- #6 of the 31 performance all-season tires rated by Consumer Reports in the attached November 2003 article.

Consider replacing your tires reasonably soon due to tire aging -- six to nine years from manufacture date depending on which expert you want to believe. The four digit manufacture date on the tire side wall is in "WWYY" (week, year) format. For example, if you see "1903" on a tire sidewall, it means the tire was manufactured the 19th week of 2003.

Tread compounds usually harden as tires age and temperatures drop and provide less traction. More recent winter tires with the mountain/snowflake logo use compounds that remain flexible and this technology is starting to be used in all season tires.