Toyota Quality...?

[The G Man]

I find the Geman rotors to last about as long as the Japanese, about 1 resurface then its time for replacement. The biggest difference is the material, the Japanese use a type of metal that shows rust in the center, while the German rotors stay rust free. Of course the how often you need new brakes will depend on how hard you drive. If you drive your Lexus like a Corolla, the breaks will last a long time, but if you drive your lexus like a BMW or an Audi, things will break down sooner and brakes will wear out faster. There are some GS350, IS350 and IS-F owners who need new brake pads at 20000 miles. In fact, in the Lexus manual for those cars, it specify that the high friction brake pads may only last 20000 miles.

[Lexusfreak]

I think Car & Driver is telling like it is with this well written article on the whole Toyota / Lexus situation...

http://www.caranddriver.com/news/car/10q1/...ivers-editorial

[SW03ES]

That is a very well written article...

[The G Man]

That is a very well written article...

I agree with most of the article, but the author again blames the owners and the media. Personally, I think Toyota should share the blame as well. The last paragraph in the article really hit it home for me :

"Toyota hasn't produced many interesting or exciting products. In Car and Driver comparison tests, Toyotas have generally placed mid-pack for years because they handle poorly and have increasingly chintzy interiors. Over the years, people haven't bought Toyotas because they offered driving thrills or prestige; they bought them because, in the words of one CR loyalist and former serial Camry buyer—this author’s mother—"The ultimate luxury is a car that doesn't ever break." So what happens when quality is called into question and the cars don't offer anything special? Well, Mrs. Dushane now drives a Subaru. Even the pragmatic tire of the banal."

If a car company's bread and butter is reliability and the perception of reliability is gone, they have nothing left. Its almost like BMW making a car that doesnt perform well or Subaru making a car that is terrible in the snow. The president of Toyota have apologized 3 years ago for poor quality and recalls and promise to make improvements, so far, I haven't seen it yet.

[SW03ES]

Yeah that part of the article really hit home for me too

[tim john]

Anyone think the government, who owns most of GM is in on this? Video on youtube, .U.S. government framed Toyota. Can't get the link to work. Found this on toyotanation.com under general discussion, conspiracy in the making.

[Lexusfreak]

Anyone think the government, who owns most of GM is in on this? Video on youtube, .U.S. government framed Toyota. Can't get the link to work. Found this on toyotanation.com under general discussion, conspiracy in the making.

I'm not seeing that at all...these recalls are for vehicles all over the world...not just in the U.S. But I'm sure the conspiracy theorists will have an absolute field day with all this.

[The G Man]

Anyone think the government, who owns most of GM is in on this? Video on youtube, .U.S. government framed Toyota. Can't get the link to work. Found this on toyotanation.com under general discussion, conspiracy in the making.

GM had a few recalls too since Obama took over.

[SW03ES]

I'm not one for conspiracy theories, and Toyota employs a LOT of Americans. What has really taken this whole situation to the next level is the coverage in the media.

[The G Man]

I'm not one for conspiracy theories, and Toyota employs a LOT of Americans. What has really taken this whole situation to the next level is the coverage in the media.

It is also the number of people affected. There are probably more Camry and Corolla owners out there than any other brand or model.

[nc211]

I didn't read that entire article, but did read your summary G man. I think the author is missing one other crucial point to why folks like Toyota cars...their quietness and smoothness that seems to last. Transmissions that shift seamlessly. Engines that don't vibrate the steering wheel or hum all day long in the cabin, road noise that doesn't require a 500w stereo to get over. I buy Toyota for this reason, and have yet to find a car maker that can match it over the long haul. Sure, all new cars are this way, but are they after say 50k miles and 5 years? I haven't seen one yet, that a "commoner" like me could afford.

Not to belittle the severity of this recall, but given the recall histories of several other automakers in comparison, I think everyone still has a long way to go to say Toyota is junk, and don't make the best cars on the road in general. Anyone forget about the Ford Exploder's problems with burning down houses if parked in the garage? Or airbags going off for no reason, tires loosing their tread at 70 mph, how about Blake's dad's $50k new Chevy truck that leaks water into the cabin every time it rains? Failing brakes on GM's in the 90's, etc... Let us not forget why Toyota is number 1. It's not necessarily that they stole the customer from the competitors, but the customer was driven to Toyota.

[SW03ES]

I didn't read that entire article, but did read your summary G man. I think the author is missing one other crucial point to why folks like Toyota cars...their quietness and smoothness that seems to last. Transmissions that shift seamlessly. Engines that don't vibrate the steering wheel or hum all day long in the cabin, road noise that doesn't require a 500w stereo to get over. I buy Toyota for this reason, and have yet to find a car maker that can match it over the long haul. Sure, all new cars are this way, but are they after say 50k miles and 5 years? I haven't seen one yet, that a "commoner" like me could afford.

The issue is...I really think when you get out 100,000 miles on the new Hyundais, the new Fords, etc you're going to see the same thing...when you really get into these cars they are really well built, and the fasteners and switchgear even look beefier than what Toyota is using. These companies are really overengineering their cars much in the way Toyota did with the original LS400 trying to ensure they get up there in the rankings.

Toyota has been suffering in this department too though. Look through the new GS forums, and the ES350 forum at the complaints about rattles and things like that. Our Prius has 55,000 miles and rattles and creaks so much I almost can't stand to drive it...and I've cared for that car so its had WAY beyond average maintenance and care.

[nc211]

I don't think they're there yet though. A perfect example would be a brand new ford mustang convertible. I rented one in Vegas, has a whopping 400 miles on it. V6 engine, leather, etc. Granted, it drove alright for what it is. But, I couldn't help to think to myself "why would anyone buy a new one of these, when they could buy a used Solero for less money that drives 100x's better across the board?" The ford was buzzy, busy, and uncomfortable beyond belief. It didn't rattle though, but again, it was brand new. I really wanted to like it too, and went into the experience with an open mind and odds in it's favor. No doubt the quality has improved tremendously, but... nowhere close to a car 5 years older. I'm basing this on the fact that my folks have an older solero convt that I've driven quite a few times, and stunned at it's quality. But, this does tie into what you're saying as well, with Toyota's offerings over the past few years....

[The G Man]

I don't think they're there yet though. A perfect example would be a brand new ford mustang convertible. I rented one in Vegas, has a whopping 400 miles on it. V6 engine, leather, etc. Granted, it drove alright for what it is. But, I couldn't help to think to myself "why would anyone buy a new one of these, when they could buy a used Solero for less money that drives 100x's better across the board?" The ford was buzzy, busy, and uncomfortable beyond belief. It didn't rattle though, but again, it was brand new. I really wanted to like it too, and went into the experience with an open mind and odds in it's favor. No doubt the quality has improved tremendously, but... nowhere close to a car 5 years older. I'm basing this on the fact that my folks have an older solero convt that I've driven quite a few times, and stunned at it's quality. But, this does tie into what you're saying as well, with Toyota's offerings over the past few years....

Well, thats not a fair comparision, from the sound of your last few post, you sound like you really enjoy a soft rider that is quiet and practical. The Ford Mustang is really not design for drivers like you, nor is the new Camero, Corvette or Viper. These are driver's car, they are design for people who like to hear the engine noise and exhaust noise, they call them exhaust notes :) The owner of these type of cars like a frim control ride and quick and tight handling, everything your Lexus is not. That is why the typical age of a Lexus owner is the 2nd oldest I believe, second behind Buick.

[RX in NC]

nc211,

No one is calling Toyota/Lexus "junk" here. But no one can deny that the entire quality aspect of Toyota/Lexus has noticeably declined over the past three or four years, either. And therein lies the crux of the matter. Toyota's reputation has taken a beating over these issues in recent months, and rightfully so....

And I have to disagree with you on "transmissions that shift seamlessly". In the two RX's that we've owned (2000 RX300 AWD and 2004 RX330 AWD), seamless transmission shifts have never been the case. My wife's current 2004 RX is light years ahead of her old dog-of-a-vehicle 2000 RX, but neither of these transmissions comes close to the smoothness of our 2005 Jaguar S-Type's German-built ZF transmission or even my trusty ol' 1999 Dodge Ram pickup (which turns 11 years old next week, by the way)....

[The G Man]

And I have to disagree with you on "transmissions that shift seamlessly". In the two RX's that we've owned (2000 RX300 AWD and 2004 RX330 AWD), seamless transmission shifts have never been the case. My wife's current 2004 RX is light years ahead of her old dog-of-a-vehicle 2000 RX, but neither of these transmissions comes close to the smoothness of our 2005 Jaguar S-Type's German-built ZF transmission or even my trusty ol' 1999 Dodge Ram pickup (which turns 11 years old next week, by the way)....

I agree, Lexus had a few problems with transmission flares in the RX, it has been a known problem for a while. Even though Toyota transmssions are better than Acura's, they are by no mean the best. Performance and smoothness wise, the German and the Jag's transmssion are the best, they are close ratio transmssion design to shift quick and seemlessly. As far as heavy duty transmissions, there is still nothing like a good old fashion American transmission like the Allison transmission, which is design for toughness.

[nc211]

Every toyota I've owned (see list) have shifted flawlessly and practically unoticable, including the 4runner with it's perm awd with 80k on the same fluid. Ever driven a Solero? They're not exactly floaty and wondering all over the road. I'm just saying, $25k in my pocket for a "sporty" convertible, probably not going to a V6 mustang.

Look, I don't really care. When you're #1, you're the bar setter, and you're the one everyone else is gunning for to make some kind of mistake so everyone can exploit it to their own advantage. See that little quote down below in my signature from Ms. Jenkins? Same thing applies here. If you don't want or don't like a toyota when you're in the showroom looking at it, then simply don't buy it. Just because one model year of the RX had some issues, doesn't mean the entire lineup is the same way. Just as some jag owners of the same series you own, but a year or two earlier production models swear they'll never buy another, doesn't mean today's models are the same. To be perfectly honest with you RX, you're about the only person I've ever known to not be bitchin' about their Jag.

If I had my choice of cars, I'd love a new Tahoe. But I won't buy one when I can get a slightly used Land Cruiser for the same price, for obvious reasons. Just my choice.

[The G Man]

Every toyota I've owned (see list) have shifted flawlessly and practically unoticable, including the 4runner with it's perm awd with 80k on the same fluid. Ever driven a Solero? They're not exactly floaty and wondering all over the road. I'm just saying, $25k in my pocket for a "sporty" convertible, probably not going to a V6 mustang.

Look, I don't really care. When you're #1, you're the bar setter, and you're the one everyone else is gunning for to make some kind of mistake so everyone can exploit it to their own advantage. See that little quote down below in my signature from Ms. Jenkins? Same thing applies here. If you don't want or don't like a toyota when you're in the showroom looking at it, then simply don't buy it. Just because one model year of the RX had some issues, doesn't mean the entire lineup is the same way. Just as some jag owners of the same series you own, but a year or two earlier production models swear they'll never buy another, doesn't mean today's models are the same. To be perfectly honest with you RX, you're about the only person I've ever known to not be bitchin' about their Jag.

If I had my choice of cars, I'd love a new Tahoe. But I won't buy one when I can get a slightly used Land Cruiser for the same price, for obvious reasons. Just my choice.

nc211, I also have owned many Toyota and Lexus, eight to be exact between my wife and I. Believe me, we didnt buy all those Toyota because we believe it had a nice transmssion. We bought those Toyota and Lexus because we know it is a safe bet.

Have you driven a new Jag? I have and I also bought one, it is that nice, the new Jagaur XF puts the Lexus ES and the GS to shame and yes, its rated to be more relaible and have better customer service than Lexus.

As far as the Tahoe vs a Land Cruiser, the LC is $15000 more, I would much rather buy a new Tahoe than a 2 year old LC.

[nc211]

Good for you.

[SW03ES]

The Mustang's not a fair comparison. What you need to go drive is a Fusion and a Taurus.

And I have to disagree with you on "transmissions that shift seamlessly". In the two RX's that we've owned (2000 RX300 AWD and 2004 RX330 AWD), seamless transmission shifts have never been the case. My wife's current 2004 RX is light years ahead of her old dog-of-a-vehicle 2000 RX, but neither of these transmissions comes close to the smoothness of our 2005 Jaguar S-Type's German-built ZF transmission or even my trusty ol' 1999 Dodge Ram pickup (which turns 11 years old next week, by the way)....

The transmission thats in the ES and RX isn't the smoothest, theres no doubt about that. When you look at the transmission in the LS or the V8 GS though...they are pretty darn smooth...

Have you driven a new Jag? I have and I also bought one, it is that nice, the new Jagaur XF puts the Lexus ES and the GS to shame and yes, its rated to be more relaible and have better customer service than Lexus.

I have. The XF is a BEAUTIFUL car, I love it. However, the ES is still smoother and quieter, as well as bigger inside and a great deal cheaper. Compared to the GS the GS is a little roomier inside, the XF feels smaller and more race-car like...which is how its supposed to feel. Lots of weird quirks like the shifter design. The roof line is very low. Great car though.

Jaguar's dealer network isn't as good as Lexus', at least around here. I think its the volume, all the Jag dealers are combo with other brands and aren't as high end feeling as the Lexus dealers.

[RX in NC]

nc211,

The primary reason that you don't hear me "bitching" about our S-Type is because I did voluminous research on Jaguar in general and our specific VIN before I made the decision to try to steal it during the depths of the recession in December 2008. I learned that under Ford's ownership, Jaguar made tremendous strides in overall quality and customer satisfaction and that by the 2005 model year, the S-Type was at the top of its game. So I found one that had been on an executive lease down in Fort Lauderdale, had done only 18,000 miles in three years and was in showroom condition, still had seven months of factory warranty left for me to shake out any bugs at Jaguar's expense, and then I dug up every service record or recall so I would have a completely accurate history of our specific car. I took full advantage of those seven months of remaining factory warranty by having the throttle body replaced (the slightest moisture in the throttle body can cause "limp home mode" to be engaged), the rear suspension links, bushings, and tie-rods replaced (common initial wear items in the S-Type line), the fuel filler door latch motor and assembly replaced (common failure in the S-Type), and a couple of other minor details taken care of under warranty. All told, about $3,000 worth of warranty work to get the car absolutely perfect prior to the warranty running its course at four years. You know me - I did the research (including taking photos of the affected or potentially affected parts on our car), presented it to the Jaguar dealership, and left them little choice but to take care of my concerns under warranty. All of this took place between May and July of last year in four separate warranty visits. Like Johnson Lexus, they knew I was serious, they knew I was completely informed, they resolved all of my issues, and I had a nice loaner Jaguar to drive while our car was in their shop (usually for one to two days). Come July 19th, 2009, I knew the car's care and feeding would transfer completely to me, and I spent enough time on a couple of the Jaguar forums to know what to expect and when to expect it. The beauty of one of the Jaguar forums in particular is that three or four actual Jaguar master techs (in Texas, Ohio, and California) regularly contribute. You can ask specific questions and they will answer them, sometimes pointing me to the exact page or diagram in my JTIS (Jaguar Technical Information Services) maintenance CD that I bought off of ebay last June for less than ten bucks. That is an incredible advantage to have when self-servicing a vehicle. There are also some incredibly technical owners on that forum, much moreso than here on LOC....

Fast-forwarding to today, my wife still loves this car (her RX330 is now essentially our dog-hauler and snowstorm vehicle) and will reach 42,000 miles on the odometer next week. It's perfect for her long solo highway trips to visit her elderly parents in Tampa six to eight times a year and on those long trips she averages between 33 and 34 mpg ripping down I-95 with cruise control set at 72 to 74 mph with the HVAC system comfortably set wherever she wants to put it. I wouldn't have believed that was possible if the salesman had tried to tell me that about the car before I bought it.

What have I had to do to the car from a non-routine maintenance perspective post-warranty? My pre-purchase research told me that the Jaguar factory front brake pads are soft, ridiculously expensive, and might go 30,000 miles. They did 32,000 miles and I replaced them with a lifetime-warrantied set of Wagner ThermoQuiet pads that I picked up at Advance Auto Parts for less than $60. They are just as quiet as the factory pads, stop just as well, and create less than half the dust that the factory pads did. My post-purchase research told me that the factory O-rings on both Intake Manifold Tuner valves were not originally designed to be round enough or thick enough to prevent eventual slight oil seepage out of the IMT valves and down onto the engine's heat shields. Sure enough, a month ago my wife complained of a faint smell of burning oil in the cabin so I checked both IMT valves and yep, the lower one was slightly leaking. Common problem, Jaguar realized it, they re-engineered a new O-ring a couple of years ago, I purchased two of them (total cost was $4.63 at the dealership in Greensboro), and did the new O-ring job myself in my driveway in mid-January after discussing it on-line with a couple of the Jaguar master techs as well as with an owner in Charlotte who did it himself last March. Took me about two hours since I had never been into the intake before and wanted to be very careful, learning on the fly. The dealership quoted right at $300 to do it. Glad I chose to do it myself. If I had to do it again on someone else's S-Type, I could now do it in 30 to 45 minutes....

That's it. Other than oil & filter changes and tire rotations, that's all I've had to do. This S-Type has been a breeze. It's lightning fast, it gets incredible gas mileage, it's luxurious and smooth, it's a perfect highway cruiser, it's drop-dead gorgeous, and I absolutely stole it during the low point of the recession. I suggested that you look at a 2005-or-newer S-Type before you purchased your GS, but your impression of the car was based on your father-in-law's early-generation S-Type with all the known problems of failing coils, leaking valve gaskets, failing window regulators, sagging headliners, finicky suspensions, quirky electrics, and the mediocre Ford transmission. All of those inferior components were re-engineered and replaced well before the 2005-and-newer final run of the S-Type line came to market.

As a do-it-yourself car guy, I knew you would be much happier with a 2005-and-up S-Type than you would be with your GS. I tried to tell you that. But you didn't listen....

[The G Man]

RX in NC, there is no doubt that most people would be happier in a Jag S-type than a GS, two different class of cars really, but not everyone is as handy as you. For those who dont know the difference between a head gasket and a cylinder head, Lexus is the way to go or any similar Japanese cars. Jags are not the maintenance hog as they use to be, but they are still high maintenance, and costly when out of warranty.

I compare European cars to Japanese car like old girlfriends, some are a lot of fun but very high maintenance and some are boring but reliable, it all depends on your patients and what you are looking for at the time.

[RX in NC]

You are correct. To own a Jaguar without breaking your bank account in maintenance and repair, you MUST be a do-it-yourself type. I am, and so is nc211. If he had our S-Type, he would love it....

[The G Man]

You are correct. To own a Jaguar without breaking your bank account in maintenance and repair, you MUST be a do-it-yourself type. I am, and so is nc211. If he had our S-Type, he would love it....

Even then, there is only so much you can do. especially for people who dont have a second car.

[RX in NC]

With my JTIS CD and the guidance by the Jaguar master techs who frequent a couple of the Jaguar forums in both the US and the UK, I can do a hell of a lot more service procedures on our S-Type than I initially thought I could do. Most experienced D-I-Y guys with basic automotive knowledge, a decent array of tools, and a can-do attitude will be just fine. There's a lot of help out there if you know where to look for it....