Toyota Quality...?

[Lexusfreak]

This mornings interview with Toyota USA's President & COO Jim Lentz on MSNBC's Today Show with Matt Lauer :whistles:

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/toyotas-j...shipping-today/

[tim john]

put my 04 es in neutral on the way to work, no power to the wheels. I feel safe. good interview, interesting read about the Pontiac vibe on the truth about cars site.

tim

[The G Man]

It sounds like Jim Lentz is talking around thing and doing some damage control at the same time. He said he cannot guarantee Toyota owners that these recalls will fix all of the sudden accelartion problem with Toyota. That is understandable because it is impossible to determine if all the sudden accelartion cases are related to these fixes, but what really concern me is that, if Toyota knew about these problems for 3 years and they are just now engineering a fix, then waht other problem they know about or havent yet know about that they are not sharing with us. Putting any car into neutral should cut power to the wheels, but the problem is that one should not have to worry about putting a car into neutral all the time, it makes for a very un-relaxing driving experience. Also there are different drivers out there with different driving skill, some might be just beginners and some might have slow reaction time due to their age or handicap. In some highway traffic situation, there is simply not enough time to hit the brakes and realizing that the car is not slowing down and then try to shift into neutral after that.

[SOMEONE ELSE'S GOT MY NAME]

I think the LS is built on it's own platform...

. . . . . . . . . . . snip

Well ... I tried to be subtle :P :

http://us.lexusownersclub.com/forums/index...showtopic=29142

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexus_ES

http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic....1abb93d2c9197c6

Not to say that re-badging makes the Lexus less a car ... just that those whacky folks at Toyota know how to get a lot of mileage out of a platform.

;)

[tim john]

Good articles, good point. Time will tell if this fix is correct. I know some people that freak out with cruise control on and have trouble in a panic situation. The LS GS and SC are on there own platforms. My 04 ES is paid for, so I'll keep it. Next car I think might be a used GS. Hope they get this fixed.

Tim

[The G Man]

My 04 ES is paid for, so I'll keep it. Next car I think might be a used GS. Hope they get this fixed.

Tim

That is what I thought too, I had a ES and thought that the next step up on the Lexus ladder is the GS. Boy was I wrong. the GS is a totally different car, rides very rough and actually smaller than the ES. If I had to do it all over again, I should ahve gotten a LS460 or some other brand.

[Lexusfreak]

Anyone catch The Daily Show with Jon Stewart Tuesday night (Feb 2nd)? They had a whole skit on Toyota...it was hysterical.

[The G Man]

I am sure Mr Toyoda did not find it funny :)

[Lexusfreak]

I am sure Mr Toyoda did not find it funny :)

The kicker with that though...when he was leaving...he got into an Audi!

[The G Man]

I am sure Mr Toyoda did not find it funny :)

The kicker with that though...when he was leaving...he got into an Audi!

You must admit, Lexus and Audi are two car companies that are going in opposite direction. Audi use to be a joke ten years ago and they are making some of the best looking and highest quality cars around today, while Lexus' quality and designs continues on a downward spiral.

[RX in NC]

Audi has indeed stepped up their game. One of my sisters has had the top-of-the-line Audi SUV for the past couple of years and has really enjoyed its all-wheel-drive capabilities during our recent and current rounds of snow/sleet storms. She likes it better than her previous couple of Jeep Grand Cherokees which she was also very pleased with....

[The G Man]

Audi has indeed stepped up their game. One of my sisters has had the top-of-the-line Audi SUV for the past couple of years and has really enjoyed its all-wheel-drive capabilities during our recent and current rounds of snow/sleet storms. She likes it better than her previous couple of Jeep Grand Cherokees which she was also very pleased with....

Did she buy a Q7, that is one nice SUV. My wife just bought a Q5, couldnt affort the Q7 :) The quattro system is right up there with Jeep and Subrau. The interior is simply amazing, the quality and workmanship reminds me of my Lexus from 10 years ago.

[Lexusfreak]

This is a pretty good read & it makes a very good point...(funny YouTube video too)...

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/toyota-il...ne/#more-344346

[SW03ES]

Audi does make a beautiful car.

However...owning one VW in my life was enough. The repair costs because of the diagnostic equipment are...incredible...

[RX in NC]

Yes, it's a Q7. I believe it's a 2008 model.

And yes, maintenance costs can be very high with an Audi (or our Jaguar S-Type) if you are not a do-it-yourselfer due to the proprietary diagnostics and cost of parts. But this Audi Q7 has been essentially troublefree thus far. And since they business-lease their primary vehicles, they don't keep them for more than 3 years. They're gone and replaced before any major issues strike, plus they've been under the factory warranty for the entire time. An expensive ownership experience for most folks, but it provides significant tax advantages to them. Not as good as a few years ago before the leasing laws got stricter, but still good enough to be worth it for them....

[Lexusfreak]

I agree guy's...if the European's had a better long term reliability history I would definately consider them. Sadly with what I have read & friends / co-workers have told me over the years I will not be stepping into one of their showrooms anytime soon.

[The G Man]

Its all a trade off, European cars are more fun to drive, they are built better, Japanese cars are more reliable and the electronics is better. The myth of the high maintenance cost of German cars are nothing more than a myth. An audi routine maintenance cost in the 1st 5 years is about $800, BMW is free. The routine maintenance for an Lexus the 1st 5 years can easily double that of Audi's. As far as parts and labor rate is concerned, Lexus's price have gone up in recent years, it is now as high as their German counterparts.

According to the latest JD power long term reliability report, Audi have made significant improvment in relaibility. It is now rated above the likes of Subrau, Hyundai and Ford:

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2009-0...liability_N.htm

Here is the latest JD power dependability study:

[SW03ES]

The myth of the high maintenance cost of German cars are nothing more than a myth. An audi routine maintenance cost in the 1st 5 years is about $800, BMW is free. The routine maintenance for an Lexus the 1st 5 years can easily double that of Audi's. As far as parts and labor rate is concerned, Lexus's price have gone up in recent years, it is now as high as their German counterparts.

BMW is free for new cars. Older BMWs, dealers charge up to $400 for an oil change depending on the model and the package the owner wants. Now, just like the Lexus you don't have to use the dealer so for the most part I agree with you.

As for Audis, why did the VW & Audi specific shop's owner I had my tires from TireRack installed at last year tell me never to trade my Lexus in on an Audi? He said that when he was doing research into which company to service with his new shop, VW & Audi were the clear choice because of their poor reliability and extreme dealer servicing cost which made the fact that their proprietary diagnostic equipment's 4 time higher cost worthwhile.

He had 5 Audis in the shop...all under 100,000 miles but out of warranty...every one had a $2k+ repair bill.

[The G Man]

The myth of the high maintenance cost of German cars are nothing more than a myth. An audi routine maintenance cost in the 1st 5 years is about $800, BMW is free. The routine maintenance for an Lexus the 1st 5 years can easily double that of Audi's. As far as parts and labor rate is concerned, Lexus's price have gone up in recent years, it is now as high as their German counterparts.

BMW is free for new cars. Older BMWs, dealers charge up to $400 for an oil change depending on the model and the package the owner wants. Now, just like the Lexus you don't have to use the dealer so for the most part I agree with you.

As for Audis, why did the VW & Audi specific shop's owner I had my tires from TireRack installed at last year tell me never to trade my Lexus in on an Audi? He said that when he was doing research into which company to service with his new shop, VW & Audi were the clear choice because of their poor reliability and extreme dealer servicing cost which made the fact that their proprietary diagnostic equipment's 4 time higher cost worthwhile.

He had 5 Audis in the shop...all under 100,000 miles but out of warranty...every one had a $2k+ repair bill.

Did you know just a pair of the Lexus GS350 side mirror cost $2800 just for parts, so a $2000 repair bill is really not that bad. Older German cars is more troublesome than Japanese cars in general. The trade off is German car will age better than Japanese cars. VW-Audi use a diagnostic repair software called VAG-COM. It is a free download online and you can buy the cable from ebay for $20.

Your shop owner was right, older Audi are very unreliable, but if you bought an Audi within the last 5 years, they are much more reliable than the old one from years pass. Unfortunately, most people dont do their research and continue to go by information that are old and is no longer tha case.

[SW03ES]

What do the side mirrors for a Audi A6 cost? The $2,000 repair bills aren't cosmetic repairs, they are mechanical failures. Transmission failures, etc. My Lexus has NEVER cost me $2,000 to repair anything even at 140k miles. You just simply don't see repair bills like that for these cars except in very rare instances. None of those Audis was old, I would hardly consider a car with less than 100,000 miles old. Don't know the exact years but by the look of them they were certainly no older than '04 or so.

As for german cars aging better...again my ES has 140k miles and looks, drives, runs, and rides like brand new. I've ridden in Lexus vehicles with well over 200,000 miles and the same is true. How much better do you need a car to age? Buddy of mine has a 2003 525i with the same miles as my ES300. He paid $10,000 in repairs last year. Not for me.

VW-Audi use a diagnostic repair software called VAG-COM. It is a free download online and you can buy the cable from ebay for $20.

Including the licensure to use it for business? Highly doubtful.

Lets say that the cars within the last 5 years are much better, we still have to wait to find out don't we? Being #12 on the IQS list is no huge win...

[The G Man]

What do the side mirrors for a Audi A6 cost? The $2,000 repair bills aren't cosmetic repairs, they are mechanical failures. Transmission failures, etc. My Lexus has NEVER cost me $2,000 to repair anything even at 140k miles. You just simply don't see repair bills like that for these cars except in very rare instances. None of those Audis was old, I would hardly consider a car with less than 100,000 miles old. Don't know the exact years but by the look of them they were certainly no older than '04 or so.

As for german cars aging better...again my ES has 140k miles and looks, drives, runs, and rides like brand new. I've ridden in Lexus vehicles with well over 200,000 miles and the same is true. How much better do you need a car to age? Buddy of mine has a 2003 525i with the same miles as my ES300. He paid $10,000 in repairs last year. Not for me.

VW-Audi use a diagnostic repair software called VAG-COM. It is a free download online and you can buy the cable from ebay for $20.

Including the licensure to use it for business? Highly doubtful.

Lets say that the cars within the last 5 years are much better, we still have to wait to find out don't we? Being #12 on the IQS list is no huge win...

I have no idea how much a side mirror cost for Audi, but I assume is about the same. My point is, Lexus parts are getting as expensive as the Germans. The day of a high quality Lexus at a bargain price is no more. I do agree that German cars break down more often when they get old, but if you trade in your car every 4 or 5 years, then they are relaible enough for most people. If you plan to keep a car for 150000 miles, then It would be cheaper to own American or Japanese. Here is where you and I differ, I consider any car that is over 50000 miles old :) There are a few Audi model from 05 and earlier that is pretty unreliable, but from 06 on, they have improve quite a bit.

In my opinion, the older Lexus definitely age better material wise. The newer Lexus has cheaper leather and cheaper plastic interior, the leather usually wrinkles after the 1st year.

I believe a legal commerical copy of VAG COM from Ross tech is about $300.

Being # 12 is huge for Audi consider they almost drop out of the US market all together about 15 years ago. They use to be a joke and now they are right up there with Lexus, BMW and MB.

[Lexusfreak]

Long term, I will stick with Lexus over an Audi personally...what happened to the mirror on the GS to warrant a $2,000+ repair bill? For something like that (and at that price range) we have either insurance or an auto wrecker to contact....but long term reliability, I definately will stick with a Japanese brand...and like SW, a few of my friends with German rides are starting to complain about the cost of mechanical repairs.

[SW03ES]

I agree with you that the costs of maintaining a Lexus are definitely getting up there with the Germans, provided that you use the dealers. Lexus vehicles are still more independent mechanic friendly than the Germans.

Here is where you and I differ, I consider any car that is over 50000 miles old

If thats the bar you set, then almost any modern car will be "reliable" to you.

I obviously also agree about the older cars vs the newer cars...

[nc211]

What I found during my struggle with wanting a BMW, is that parts are much cheaper for a BMW. Perfect example being brake rotors, at about $50 a piece (parts.com figures for a 330i at the time). Whereas my GS rotors were twice that. However, after calling a german garage that I have come to hightly trust, my $100 OEM rotors for my GS will last 3 times longer than the OEM $50 for the BMW. He said this is usually the case across the board. He said "yes, fixing a lexus is hugely expensive, but it is rare to ever do the same repair twice for the life of the car". Whereas on a german car, you should expect each repair to be performed twice during it's life. Granted, this is outside of the normal wear and tear items for all cars.

[SW03ES]

Right...I have also read that for instance Mercedes designs their rotors to be disposable...