Project Es300 Engine Gel!

[Lexusfreak]

Any news to report mburn? Just courious B)

[mburnickas]

for???? Oil tests?

I just drained, flushed all fluids this weekend.

[Lexusfreak]

OK. B)

[branshew]

The thing I hate, yes hate about Lexus is that they say it is the best car out there (for its class). The kicker is if you followed the manual to a ‘tee” yes it would be the best car but at a HUGE price. It better be for the prices they want! They want you in there for everything and anything. Also at the wonderful Lexus price mind you. Some of the things they charge you for is a complete joke (ie $30 for wipers) Give me a break. I could have gotten 2 years of wipers for that. This is what I hear from a guy I work with that has a 00.

Never- mind the $1,000 for a 60,000 service, $100 for an oil change or $250 for an ATF fluid change! All the things I have done don't even add up to $800 (including a tire job) Give me a break. For all this you get a vacuumed car and a wash job, oh joy. Too bad my car has been to my local dealer only twice for a mass flow sensor issue and a EGR sensor. I hope they do not expect me there anytime soon for anything other then a timing belt. The rest I will do and save enough $$$ for a few mortgage payments (for the prices they want)

Yup, as far all the people that work there, just because they think the car is the best, does not mean the people working there are…..

Welcome to luxury car ownership 101!

If you followed any car owners manual to a tee and had all of the service done at the dealership, you would pay alot more than if you did it yourself or if you went to an independent. Their recommendations will keep your car in peak running condition all of the time. Nobody wants to drive around in a broken down old Lexus so that is why they recommend what they do. However, nobody is forcing you to go to the dealership. There are plenty of independents out there.

It's just a fact of life that service costs more at the dealership. If they did it for free then they wouldn't be in business too long. You are also driving a luxury car and not a Kia. The usual correlation is that the more you pay for your car, the more you should expect to pay to have it serviced. Buy a Mercedes, BMW, Audi, or even an Acura and see what those dealerships charge for service. What do you think a Ferrari mechanic charges for an hour of his time?

As you mentioned, luxury dealerships also offer some "extra" services that you don't always get at a regular dealership. I never had a loaner car offered to me whan I took my old Subaru in for a repair. They never washed or vacuumed it for me either. They never kissed my @$$ when I walked in the service door, offered me gourmet coffee, a small office space with an internet connection for my laptop, manicures, etc. All of these things cost money and someone has to pay for it.

It just so happens that many luxury car owners don't care what it costs. They like the extra conveniences and don't mind paying for them. You can't expect to buy a top of the line car, get top of the line service, and have it cost the same as it would for a Hyundai.

You are fortunate that you are able to do most of the maintenance on your own. You have probably saved a ton of money. Unlike you, most people aren't that mechanically inclined and don't know how to do it so they are forced to pay someone else to do it. (That's how the economy works.)

I do alot of my own maintenance as well, but some things I would rather have a mechanic deal with. Sometimes my time is more valuable to me than my mechanic's hourly rate!

[Lexusfreak]

Well said bran! B) Couldn't agree more. I take my 01 ES to an indepentent mechanic that works on high end european & japanese cars & I save about 35% an hour for labour compared to the Lexus dealers & many replacement parts I bring to him myself (some of which you can't even get in Canada!). I take it to the dealership for warranty work only, unless it's catastrophic (which I dought will ever happen) repair. Those who are well off enough to spend that kind of cash at the Lexus dealer & don't care what it costs.....more power to ya! :D That just means I don't wait in line at my independent tech shop for "top shelf" service.

[Lexusfreak]

Got a question about oil viscosity here:

What would be the pro's & cons of perhaps switching to a 5W 40 grade synthetic from a 5W 30? JPI (or whomever would like to address this), I'm just courious as to any benefits (if any) that might be gained by going to a slightly thicker viscosity synthetic. Or would more harm than good occur & please explain why?

Also, any new details on the oil gelling issues at all anyone?

[mburnickas]

No oil test kits yet. Should be here next week.

[66zoomie]

Has anyone talked with Toyota/Lexus to see if there's a correlation between this gelling problem and the location of the oil filter [directly underneath the exhaust manifold?!]

[Lexusfreak]

That thought had crossed my mind too 66! Fair question. B)

[mburnickas]

Below (List of suspects ) was from a link on my webpage: It seems that the oil is not a direct relation to it, other states the same. Even though Lexus says oil related. So the "list" blows the 3 to 5K-mile drain interval out the window kind off.

If you knew the gas temp range in manifold, material of manifold & thk, distance to oil filter, oil temp, oil filter material & thk, & air temp in engine conpartment you could figure out if the manifold comes into play. Also need to know the flash and fire temp of the oil I would assume. Doing the above you would figure out heat rates, fluxes, work in needed, power if needed

List of suspects

Some possible causes of engine sludge, as cited by experts outside Toyota

Faulty head gasket, allowing coolant to leak into oil system

Unburned gasoline contaminating oil

Inadequate oil circulation

Infrequent changes of oil and filter

Poor quality or nondetergent oil

Oxides of nitrogen from emissions system contaminate oil

Engine runs too cool in spots, causing condensation buildup inside crankcase

Engine runs too hot in spots, causing oil to break down faster

Seal on oil filler cap fails, allowing moisture to enter engine through valve cover

Too many short trips or frequent driving under adverse conditions

[Lexusfreak]

"Inadequate oil circulation"? Caused by what exactly? Low oil level, extremely dirty & contaminated oil? bad or clogged oil filter?

[mburnickas]

Don't look at me. I am not the moron who wrote it, just posted what the article stated about the "experts" (as dumb as it seems).

http://www.autonews.com/article.cms?articleId=38921

[66zoomie]

I mentioned the possible correlation between the oil filter location directly underneath the exhaust manifold and oil gelling because I once owned a 1980 Saab Turbo. Saab emphasized the importance of letting the turbo "spin down" for 30-45 seconds before shutting the engine off, and although this was mainly a mechanical consideration, it was also a way to counter the tendency of oil to "coke" [i.e. to cook at high temp until it literally turned to carbon particles]. According to Saab, letting the turbo spin down allowed the unit to cool down somewhat and resulted in a thinner film of oil in the bearing races. If the turbo was not allowed to spin down, oil pooled in the bearing races (of the hotter unit) and the result was "coked" (or cooked!) oil, which was more abrasive the next time the turbo was fired up. Although the turbo was directly inline with the exhaust, it probably didn't experience much higher temperatures immediately after engine shutdown than the oil filter does in our Lexus engine bays, and the turbo probably cooled faster in the Saab than the oil filter in our Lexus.

[mburnickas]

66- If you use a better oil, you will get little to no coking on the turbo bearing due to the high temps. Good post, got me thinking. That is why I posted a huge info dump on my last post (about material etc)

This was way I ran a good 100% synthetic oil in my 98 Ford Powerstroke Diesel (7.3 w turbo). Ford also came out with an "temp" computer since many people uneducated about turbo's cooked there turbo's! Did not use a good oil and the only way around it was to idle the engine to cool the turbo. Some engine uses fluids, coolant and oil, to cool down. Only had oil on the Ford.

I would say no, the oil in a turbo will not cool faster then the Lexus oil filter due to the fact that 90% of turbo use the engine oil to cool. Also the turbo is a larger mass (heat sink) & volume and the materials on the turbo will hold more heat then an oil filter.

In my wacked engineering brain.

[66zoomie]

mburnickas - Synthetic oils were not readily available back in the '80-'82 timeframe when I owned the Saab, so I used what most Saab dealers suggested for the turbo: Castrol 20W50. I doubt that's what they would recommend now, but it was then.

Not sure I agree with your conclusion about rate of cooling for the turbo on the Saab vs. the oil filter on the ES300. The turbo was inline in the exhaust but was physically about 12" from the engine and exhaust manifold, so the turbo cooled down fairly quickly. Unlike the oil filter on our ES300's, which is directly underneath the exhaust manifold and on the block - a far bigger heat sink than any turbo will ever be - and which cools down at a (relatively) glacial pace.

[Lexusfreak]

Any oil test's back at all yet gents? mburn? JPI? Won't be around here for a couple weeks come saturday so just wanted to check in. B)

[mburnickas]

66zone- You can figure out the temps with basic heat transfer equations and the material properties. As much as your statement makes since, you can’t assume anything unless you know the properties of each unknown.

Also you will need to know the boundary conditions of the system. There are a lot of variables that come into play. Based on my heat transfer background (limited to work & school only), when comparing a turbo to an oil filter; I would say it will be very close. The oil filter might be on the engine but the turbo is a larger mass and the "material" of the turbo is a factor. The internal energy, work, enthalpy’s, fluid, KE, PE...etc

Lexus freak. No test results yet. The result stake about 3 to 4 weeks (turnaround time)

[Lexusfreak]

Understood mburn, sorry to be a pest.....I didn't realize it was going to take a 3 - 4 weeks.....I'll be patient for the results. B) ;) :D

[mburnickas]

not a pain. I wish they came back ASAP! :(

[Lexusfreak]

As do I lol I will check back after my honeymoon! B)

[mburnickas]

Lexusfreak congrads on the wedding and have fun on the "mooner". I have my ine 91 days; but who is counting. :D

[Lexusfreak]

Thanks mburn! :D B) Good luck to you as well......talk with you all in a few weeks! ;)

[JPI]

Talked to the lexus engineer last week. He didn't answer all the questions that I asked him. He keep saying your customers should change their oil every 5k miles. He didn't get into the oil circulation. Well I wasted my 3hrs eating dinner with him but I did learn some new stuffs though. It's always good to have an inside connection ;) . lexusfreak where are you going?

JPI

[Lexusfreak]

What did you learn from the Lexus enginner JPI? anything that would be helpful to us? I sent you a PM btw about this issue.

I went to Florida for my honeymoon....took the Lexus of course (Kissimmee, Florida Keys & St. Pete Beach) & she went flawlessly :D & we had an absolute blast! :) B)

mburn, any news from you at all on the oil testing?

[mburnickas]

no news yet. I just sent the sample bottle out Saturday 5-22-2204. I had a little over 12,000 miles on the oil. Still look good.

Hope the honeymoon was great. I bet you can't belive it is all over already. Time really goes by fast.

The wife is driving me nuts with mine. the cake, people, dinner. .....I do not want to sound bad, but give me a break. Woman go nuts over this and all I want to do it play with my toys!