Project Es300 Engine Gel!

[monarch]

The Toyota sludge thing is mostly much ado about nothing thanks to some consumer activist Ralph Nader wannabes and the specialty engine oil & engine cleaner salesmen over at Bobistheoilguy. To them, the sludge issue is a great marketing opportunity.

The 1MZ-FE V6 owners who are so worried about sludge have no experience opening up a Toyota engine so they don't know how clean a Toyota engine - even the V6 - will be internally if the oil and filter are changed at least every 6 months or 5,000 miles since the time the car was new. So they let their imaginations run wild about what molasses like horrors could be lurking inside their motors even if they change the oil and filter at least every 6 months or 5,000 miles.

[Lexusfreak]

I don't disagree with your statement monarch, but after reading the website that mburn has posted it would appear quite a few owners that have changed their oil on a "fairly regular" basis are having this problem bigtime. Not sure what to say about this issue I guess the best thing would be to take my ES to the Lexus dealer and let them tell me one way or the other if my engine has it, but I don't think it does looking at the service history of the previous owner who leased the car.

[lxs300]

LexusFreak,

Dealers are so stupid if you / they don't experience unusual behaviour (in test drive) they are not gonna say its affected, else you have to accept the charges for testing the engine for the problem as its on your request. I don't know howmuch is hourly rate for labourin Toronto, here it is $89. Its crazy for people(who care for their car, before it breaks) to know all these sludge issues and spend.

[mburnickas]

My point is that the low drain intervals will just mask the problem. Are you fixing anything, nope. Just follow the intervals per the manual or Toyoya/Lexus letters.

Why not have the engine go within the Lexus time line so they fix it. If it goes outside the timeline you, the customer is out of luck. So what will the drains get you other then more $$ out of your pocket?

It "could" prevent things from happeneing upfront but I would want something to happen upfront and not outside the "8 year limit".

It is either follow their guide and that is the best luck you have (for the 8-years) & maybe an oil test. If not, you will do many oils changes to end up back at the original un-fixed problem (oil sludge) but now outside of the warrrenty. Boy, those extra drains really do help, NOT. You spend an extra $3o to $50 per year to help the motor, only to pay thousands down the road. Again back at the original problem but no warrenty help.

[Lexusfreak]

I hear ya lxs, the Lexus dealers here in the Toronto area charge usually between $95 & $110 labour per hour (cdn dollars). The thing is I have non of the symptoms that other owners describe that's why I'm leaning towards being confident that my ES is OK. Still, I'm getting married on May the 8th & driving down to Florida (in the Lexus) for my honeymoon (Kissimmee, Marathon Fla keys & St. Pete's beach). The car is still under full factory warranty & I've put an extended "Lexus" warranty as well that is covered anywhere in North America, I just hope I don't experence any problems related to this over that period as I'll be p ed! to say the least. I'm changing the oil the 1st or 2nd of May (Mobil 1 5w30 with the Mobil 1 oil filter) before we go. I should be fine. ;)

The dealers should inspect all these vehicles (Toyota & Lexus) for free should a customer be concerned about it. What's involved in the inspection anyways? Do they just look under the oil cap, stick a lighted camera into the crankcase or what?

[steviej]

The gelling/sludge is only up to 2001 but again I could be wrong and Lexus has zero info on these newer models pertaining to this issue. Well, there maybe be a very select few, sure but not like the older ones; not yet.

I purchased an 02 ES300 that was built in 2/2002.

In November 2002 I received a letter stating my ES was covered for 8 years from the first date of sale or lease and for unlimited miles.

so I guess the saga continues.

steviej

[mburnickas]

No clue Lexusfreak but I will be doing an oil analysis with the next few weeks so I can post my results online too help others out. Just to say, here is the raw data now back the up! :D

So far the oil is 90% as clean as the day I put it in. It will be nice to see the levels of OXD, water, Si, fuel, Nitrates, , TBN, Ca, Cu etc. It blows zero smoke out the pipe (of the car ) at 80,000 miles and the dipstick is not varnishes nor is the oil cap or internals from what I can see. The oil test will be the proof in the pudding.

[mburnickas]

steviej --I received my letter the vary same year. the PO mut have been verybusy at Toyota. I only can find oil issues in 2002 on the lexus site.

****Updated: Yes, Steve is correct.

This was taken from auto news.

"Second, Toyota said it will pay for sludge-related repairs for eight years from the date of purchase for all 1997-2002 Toyota and Lexus vehicles with the 3.0-liter IMZ V-6 engine and all 1997-2001 Toyota vehicles with the now discontinued 5SFE 2.2-liter four-cylinder engine. "

[Lexusfreak]

Did you purchase your ES brand new steviej?

[lxs300]

lxs300---

I agree but Lexus/Toyota only covers it for 8 years from what I read. After 8 years you are out of luck. I would rather have it blow in that time frame then 9 years down the road.

What about stay home mom never drives 50/100 miles a day, who can only put 5000 miles an year, meaning it takes 20 years to reach 100K miles and something happens after 8 years and around 50K miles,. Its just fate or preferring lexus over other vehicles when she bought. I have seen people using cars more than 12 years with 50/60K miles...

[monarch]

What's involved in the inspection anyways?

Lexusfreak, dealers and owners need only to remove the valve cover to inspect for sludge. Regardless of time or mileage, ANY Toyota engine will stay clean and sludgefree inside if the oil is changed at least every 6 months or 5,000 miles. Here's an example of a 16 year old, 329,000 mile Corolla engine that used ordinary dinosaur oil : http://www.saber.net/~monarch/329.cor.jpg

Only about 1% of the 1,000,000+ '97-02 1MZ-FE V6's on the road are getting sludge and that's why dealer service departments are not backed up with sludge up vehicles needing new engines. The vast majority of the 1% of unlucky owners that get sludge stretched out one or more oil change intervals to 7,500 - 15,000 miles.

[Lexusfreak]

Thanks monarch. The Corolla is built right here in Ontario BTW :D I'm of the opinion as well that as long as regular maintenance has been performed (IE: oil & filter changes) at the correct intervals that owner should be OK regardless if oil changes are dino or synthetic. I guess I'm trying to figure out one important question:

- Since the Canadian Lexus / Toyota owners manual is slightly different than our American friends (6 months or 5,000 miles in Canada vs. 6 Months or 7,500 miles in the U.S. for normal intervals), having said that, I wonder how many Canadian Toyota / Lexus vehicles are effected with this problem with the 3.0L V6 or 2.2L 4 cyl? Can Lexus U.S.A. provide that information? So far the customer service rep I spoke with at Lexus Canada head office didn't have the slightest idea of what I was talking about.:chairshot:

[mburnickas]

Lexusfreak--The proof for me is when I get the oil tested. I would not trust just pulling off the valve cover and saying, it looks good and that is all I do. I need numbers to see what is "really" going on. I just can't go by "looking" at it since that does not "close the door" on this issue, for me anyways. I guess that is the enginneer in me. I need #'s. If that is good or bad...

I do thank monarch for posting a picture of his 16 year old car here; however, we are not comparing apples to apples here. Nor is it prone to sluge issues neither. I have a picture of my oil pan on my motorcycle (1994) on my homepage with only 4 oils changes. Now that is PERFECT, hands down! Plus have the tests to show it. Again I can't even use that here since we are not in the same playing field.

I am going to order some tests kits tonight and again I will post the results. By this way I am doing longer then normal drains just to see. I have done this in all my engines and tests were close to perfect. So now lets see what the almighty Lexus brings. Will it beat Ford, Olds, MB & my suzuki (only gas here)......Well we will see? The great thing with raw data is, that is it! Nothing BS.

Edited April 22, 2004 by mburnickas

[Lexusfreak]

Sounds good mburn B) I look forward to hearing your tests results. When did you get your 98 ES exactly & what was the milage again when purchased & what is it now? Just courious on some of the backround info.

BTW, I contacted the service department of a Lexus dealer here in Toronto, they told me that as long as the oil is changed regularly, there shouldn't be any issues with engine gelling according to them (however the guy responded with "my engine gel concern on my RX 300, I clearly stated in my e-mail that I drove a 2001 ES 300! :chairshot: ). Go figure lol You can't get good help these day's it seems. They told me there were no TSB's or recalls to report either.

Keep me posted B)

[mburnickas]

I will post it on my website when I get the results back. Just to prove the point it makes. Just pay attention to the miles on the oil. The oil has worked for 10 years in my "toys" so lets see on this round.

I got my Lexus about 3 years ago with 41,000 miles of here. She is now near 80,000.

Have done, breaks, rad fluid, break fluid, PS fluid, spark plugs w/wires, fuel filter, new tires, pvc valve, ATF change (w diff) and oil and filters changes. That is it & it is very easy to work on. The dealer 1.5 hours away was great and $8,000 CHEAPER then my local moron dealers. I got rid of my Ford Powerstroke diesel for this car. Now that truck was easy to work on but took major fluids. It took 20 qts of oil (with 2 qt oil filter) and 33 qt ATF and 32 of rad fluid. Never mind the huge fuel filter and PS pump etc.

Well, I needed more room for my 4 dogs so I got the Lexus. So I got this and the wife got a ML420; however, the Lexus is the dog car, go figure. It is still perfect inside. I ended up buying a $300 seat cover for the back seat and it is great. The leather looks as new. Un-real how the covers work.

The thing I hate, yes hate about Lexus is that they say it is the best car out there (for its class). The kicker is if you followed the manual to a ‘tee” yes it would be the best car but at a HUGE price. It better be for the prices they want! They want you in there for everything and anything. Also at the wonderful Lexus price mind you. Some of the things they charge you for is a complete joke (ie $30 for wipers) Give me a break. I could have gotten 2 years of wipers for that. This is what I hear from a guy I work with that has a 00.

Never- mind the $1,000 for a 60,000 service, $100 for an oil change or $250 for an ATF fluid change! All the things I have done don't even add up to $800 (including a tire job) Give me a break. For all this you get a vacuumed car and a wash job, oh joy. Too bad my car has been to my local dealer only twice for a mass flow sensor issue and a EGR sensor. I hope they do not expect me there anytime soon for anything other then a timing belt. The rest I will do and save enough $$$ for a few mortgage payments (for the prices they want)

Yup, as far all the people that work there, just because they think the car is the best, does not mean the people working there are…..

[steviej]

Did you purchase your ES brand new steviej?

nope, it was an executive car. The finance director had it. i got it with 10,500 on the clock.

[paul93eslex]

CONGATULATIONS LEXUSFREAK! I'm sure your trip with the Lexus will be enjoyable and trouble free.. I do hope JPI didn't abandon this thread, he did seem a bit annoyed with it.

[Lexusfreak]

Many thanks Paul, were looking forward to the trip /honeymoon :D Can't think of too many other cars that would be nicer to take than the ES. Good news is It's still under factory warranty (for another 3k miles) & I have the "Lexus" extended warranty too good till 112k miles should there be any problems with anything. I've changed all the fluids (as well as a complete tune up at that the Lexus dealer paid for) when I purchased her & just have to change the oil a few days before we go. I'm confident she will run like a top while were there. B)

I hope JPI didn't abandon the thread either, he gives very good advice to a lot of the members here & I like hearing what he has to say.

[JPI]

Hey guys,

I"m still here. Sorry I was a little upset but I'm here to help people. If you have any datas that will help us learn more about this V6 engine let me know. I'm very open and like to learn too. I'm working a write up. Will keep you guys updated. Also meeting up with the lexus engineer next week. We will see what he has to say .

JPI

[Lexusfreak]

Sounds good JPI! Keep us posted B) I've also contacted the head guy in charge of the engineering department at Lexus Canada. I've asked him to explain this problem from all angles & have asked for specifics & have also forwarded him mburns info from the link he posted yesterday (the stuff with the Lexus U.S.A. letterhead and such) and I will keep everyone who is intrested what he has to say about everything. Good to see you back JPI :)

[mburnickas]

JPI- Do you need data or dates? I will se what I can find.

Just remember engineers are the most bitter, lowest life-forms out there! That is coming from one of them. :D :D

[steviej]

Just remember engineers are the most bitter, lowest life-forms out there!

thanks for clearing that up.

I thought it was lawyers and car salesmen.

steviej

[mburnickas]

I think we get that way since everyone needed the stuff yesterday, poor input, or other groups do not talk with engineers. Communication is a huge issue.

Never mind that people do not understand that we can't just deseign something up in (1) minute.

[steviej]

I have a sign in my lab that says:

"FAILURE TO PLAN APPROPRIATELY ON YOUR PART

DOES NOT CONSTITUTE AN EMERGENCY ON MY PART!"

mburn, I thought you might identify with that.

steviej

[Lexusfreak]

I'd like a copy of that sign to hang one at my work & in my bedroom! Good expression. :D B)