Project Es300 Engine Gel!

[Lexusfreak]

I can't figure out for the life of me how anybody can neglect "regular maintenance" & especially on vehicles like a Lexus!! :chairshot: They design these vehicles to run efficently on minimal maintenance as it is & are people just too lazy or don't give a ? One of the only things I can think of is the fact that most of these cars are leased when they are new so they might not be as attention to detail as if someone purchased one to own for many years.....but even still, they have to get regular oil changes & many don't. What a waste! :chairshot:

[exdotcomer]

nah- I have a friend who is daddy's little rich girl. Long story , short- this is what she said as this college educated 27 year old watched her like new 2 yr old truck being towed -" you had to change the oil in a new truck?". Needless to say, daddy got her a new Saab right away. She's a doll.

[Lexusfreak]

Well it's not against the law to be a stooge I guess.....I heard a simular story when I bought my 01 Maxima......a woman had it towed in cause the engine blew. Turns out she never changed the oil ever since she bought it & she put 33,000 miles on it. These people should not have a drivers licence in my opinion. Total blatant stupidity. :chairshot:

[mburnickas]

Well I finally contacted Amsoil on this issue since I have used their oil for a longtime and wondered their take on this. Just for FYI if nothing more.

So, I guess now matter what oil you use it “might happen”. It is a function of the engine. It will either have it or not. It is also not related to engine oils. As I was told, the ONLY way to tell if you have a bad engine is determined by an oil analysis test. The test will show major problems in OXD, NOX, water and TBN veryyyy low <4. I will say that if your using any oil that the TBN is that low you better use another oil! Water is important here, which is a huge red flag. Never had water above 0.01 in cars and 0.05 in motorcycle (start and stops a lot).

High Oxidation and Nitration is due to elevated levels in acid, viscosity and sludge respectfully. Also solids will increase if you have a bad motor.

Since I have been doing oil tests in all my cars, trucks, motorcycle & tractors for over 10 years (not really long). I have never seen high rates (%) in these areas. My TBN has never dropped below 10.1 in all my cars/trucks/etc. I will not go into the trace elements since it does not matter to this tread. My NOx levels have never gone above 16.2 in my 1997 Ford diesel with over 15K miles on the oil (7 times longer then book). The oil was perfect too!

So to sum it up I would do an oil tests and check the results. All these short 3,000 mile changes are a huge waste of $$$$$ & only mask the problem. Not a real corrective action in my book. Just spend the $14 to $16 and see what is up.

This is NOT a play on the oil I use. Just something to think about.

[JPI]

7.5k miles? I think you are pushing it. Sludge does take a while for it to built up. For the sake of the V6 engine, Please change your oil between 3k-5k. Forgot to mention, I had client came in with a rx300 45k miles. The engine is locking up, he changes his oil every 8k miles with Mobile 1. For those of you who think Mobil 1 will protect your engine, you need to think again!

JPI

[paul93eslex]

Well I wouldnt call these (never change the oil) people stupid, I'd just say ignorant.. not quite so blissfully though. maybe they should include some kind of maintanence and car care section along with all that other "rules of the road" stuff, or do they already?, ahh I dunno. I talked with my former owner about my gummed up ES, and she said the oil was changed pretty normally. I guess this, and that burning oil stink, is a bit of an achilles heel for the ES. And thats a shame, because I think this V-6 is so smooth and sweet sounding, among the best. Oh well, I guess we cant expect perfection.

[mburnickas]

Jpi- You could be correct but if someone follows the Lexus book/guide (7500 mile drains) they are 100% correct in doing so. They might be too long in someone's option; but there are correct per the Lexus manual. They could also have the oil done at a Lexus dealer at this mileage required (7500 for normal etc). If something goes wrong it is not the customer fault since he followed the manual.

If someone user Mobil 1 and drained every 8K miles then I would go after Lexus. Let the manufacture deal with it since this is a problem for the last several years.

To close, I stated before it is not an oil issue. Again the short drains of 3 to 5K are just a mask and not really fixing anything, waste of time and money. If you have one of the “sludge” engine it WILL happen. Maybe not today or tomorrow, but it will. If you are that worried why not drain the oil every Friday after work! Just spend the approx $15 and test the oil. Good piece of mind.

PS. I agree, I would not say those people are stupid. It is just that common sense is not common in “that breed”.Money yes, brains..no.

[Lexusfreak]

I never called anyone specifically "stupid". I refered to it a total blatant stupidity there is a difference. My point here is there is nothing as uncommon as common sense. ;) I agree it is a shame that people don't seem to take the time to properly read their owners manual from time to time when it comes to basic car maintenance. It could end up being a hard & expensive lesson to learn.

[JPI]

Jpi- You could be correct but if someone follows the Lexus book/guide (7500 mile drains) they are 100% correct in doing so. They might be too long in someone's option; but there are correct per the Lexus manual. They could also have the oil done at a Lexus dealer at this mileage required (7500 for normal etc). If something goes wrong it is not the customer fault since he followed the manual.

If someone user Mobil 1 and drained every 8K miles then I would go after Lexus. Let the manufacture deal with it since this is a problem for the last several years.

To close, I stated before it is not an oil issue. Again the short drains of 3 to 5K are just a mask and not really fixing anything, waste of time and money. If you have one of the “sludge” engine it WILL happen. Maybe not today or tomorrow, but it will. If you are that worried why not drain the oil every Friday after work! Just spend the approx $15 and test the oil. Good piece of mind.

PS. I agree, I would not say those people are stupid. It is just that common sense is not common in “that breed”.Money yes, brains..no.

WE can sit here and talk about the technical stuffs all day... The bottom line is...Change your oil between 3-5k miles I've done at least 2 of the engine sludge a week. And I've been doing this for 7 years. Change your oil at 7.5k or 8k miles if you want but You are taking a big risk. Changing oil is not wasting your time, it's call taking care of your car. Have fun guys. I'm going back to work.

JPI

[mburnickas]

Based on my design expericence, I will tend to side with the manafacture since they designed the engine.

Each to his own.

[Lexusfreak]

I agree with JPI, I've always changed my oil & filter between the 3 - 5k intervals (every 3 months) & have never had any engine problems. I don't expect to have any if I continue that trend. I feel it's a small price to pay to avoid very expensive problems in the long run. JPI should know as he's the expert. B)

[mburnickas]

I must say this since there NO experts in this area, only educated users and people that know alot. Lexus is maybe 50% of an expert.

There corrective action, PER LEXUS was to “show reasonable evidence of regular engine maintenance, Toyota will cover expenses related to the condition.” This was taken from a LEXUS letter, not on some board or word of mouth from a dealer or whatever. I trust legal letters/documents since it helps the customer out in the end. What does word of mouth cover? ZERO

Again, nowhere in the car manual or letter does it say 3 to 5K for a drain to prevent this sludge problem (correct me if I am wrong). Five thousand is for severe driving, that is in the book/manual. Again, the 3 to 5K mile drains are huge waste of time and money since dealers want this to make money; never mind this preventing anything sludge related. If you have a bad engine it WILL happen. Doing the 3 to 5K mile changes will not stop anything. Just put a band-aid on it. Junk in my book.

On the flip side Lexus, you know, the people that designed, manufactured, distributed, approved by DOT& sold the car/engine,billion-dollar company state otherwise and they will cover the expenses per their letter. Tough call, but the customer(s), me for one have the letter stating this is all that needs to be done.

This is not technical stuff at all. It is legal document(s) that were sent out to their customers to aid in this issue. It instructs the people on what to do with their car (maintenance wise) and what to do if it happens, and what Lexus will cover. Sounds like they have a process in-line to me.

JPI I am not attacking you here, but I tend to trust , as I use that term loosely, the manufacture of the car and what they have done too help. It is a huge screw up with Lexus and they will try to help or they will lose $$$$. They have "more pull" then any Lexus dealer around x 1000

You could do 2-enginers per week but what caused the sludge? Was in all “the bad design? Any other issues that caused it? What is all documented and tested? Do you have data to back this up? If you have done 2 per week that is 728 engines/cars so far. You must have a lot of Lexus in that area of people driving all over.

Hell, my local moron dealer, which I never have gone to or purchased from, would be lucky to even lease/ sell that many in a week.

[Lexusfreak]

I can't speak for everybody, however all I know is Lexus recommends that Canadian owners follow the "severe service" maintenance procedures which means MAXIMUM milage between oil changes not exceed 5k miles (8,000kms). I understand about the "legal" side of things from the Automakers standpoint, which is fine & dandy they have an obligation to their customers as there are hundreds of thousands of these engines (if not millions) in service around the world.

What would be intresting to know is the following:

- How many engines had to be worked on because of this problem?

- Are we talking 50% of all owners?

- What is the reason why ALL the engines aren't effected? (I'm very courious to the answer to this question if all "reasonable evidence of regular maintenance is performed") If all the engines have been made the same way, aren't all the engines in fact "bad" as you put it?

- What will Toyota/Lexus do exactly to fix the problem(s) & how does the company prevent this from re-occuring again once the repair(s) is completed? or what specific recommendations do they suggest for future maintenance procedures? so the company & customers aren't going in circles every few years.

- If this is such a bad engine with perhaps a severe design flaw, why is there not a major recall and they can repair everybody's engine? They are a multi-billion dollar company aren't they? or perhaps they just might end up recalling them all in the future?

I don't want you to get the impression that I'm attacking you either mb, it just seems that some points don't add up. Any chance of you (or someone else) posting these "legal" documents on here might be of some help is all. I never said I was an expert, I'm by no means a master mechanic or anything but JPI does give some good insight to assist other owners by letting them know some hard facts since he is pretty much on the "front lines" seeing this problem happen a lot more than is probobly necessary. & if it means an extra couple of oil changes a year rather than having my entire engine disassembled to prevent the problem from happening in the first place (and all the aggravation that goes along with it) I can live with that. He gives some valuable advice in my opinion, and that should be taken into consideration is all I'm saying as I have not received one these "legal documents" from Toyota / Lexus and I have registered all my information with the Canadian head office. B) Just my two cents.

[Bigrick]

Where does one get his oil tested?

[mburnickas]

Lexus Freak- I am not taking anything to heart, so do not worry.:) I do not get that fired up over this. I have WAY more important things in life then this topic.

I think there were only a select few of cars (in the thousands) that this happened to. I want to say only like 3000 but I could be wrong. Also “the Lexus free engine” program :D is only good for 8 years or 1,000,000 miles (kidding-unlimited miles).

I doubt that it would be 50% of the owners at all. I would say since Lexus manufactured a lot of ES’s in the time frame it would not be a large %. I think it was less then 0.1 % of all US sales were effected by it.

Reason, you ask? Ask Lexus, since I only know what they sent me & read online. It was only form cars sold in a certain time frame. From what I understand it was from re-designed cooling passages to the cylinder heads to increase temps in exhust (emission reasons). Thank you local and or state reps for this!

As far as the engine, no engine is 100% the same. There is some variation due to design. Again I do not build cars on airplane engine for military and commercial. Plus they, (Lexus) can’t make a global statement saying “all the engines are bad”. Why would they? Only replace the engines that need to be replace and go from there. From a budget standpoint that is suicide. On that note I believe the Toyota 2.2L was dropped for this reason.

*I believe there is only a recall with safety, not engine flaws. It might be a TSB of some kind if you are lucky. THE NHSB (sp?) makes them recall for safety, not for design flaws.

I will look for it. I got it around the same time I got some emission notice from Lexus. I just remember reading it really close to see what they stated. I did get another letter about it, but that is thrown out I think.

As far as JPI on the front lines yes, that is great; but my take is why do these silly oil changes? Why not have the engine go now while Lexus is in the spot light and not 16 years down the road out of the “Free Engine Program”? It will just cause you more $$$ down the road with the oil changes. If Lexus knows, why do the low oil changes to prolong it? You are NOT preventing anything, just a quick fix.

[mburnickas]

Bigrick---A lot of places to oil testing. I have to get my oil in my car tested, along with the tranny oil and my gsxr-1100 oil tested. See what is up with that also.

Oh, many tractor trailer places to it, blackstone and Amsoil are a select few. there are many more. Price is from 10 to $15 USA

[JPI]

Here are points I need to make:

1) Would lexus put something like this on the service manual "If you don't change your oil every 5k, Your engine will develop sludge".

2) I think i;m qualify for this job. If you didn't know by now. I'm a lexus master tech, ASE master.

3) What is your point?

4) If you need to start another discussion on how long you should change the oil, Please start another post.

5) Moderators. Please lock this post because I don't think it's getting anywhere.

6) I don't have time to sit on here and argue. I'm here to inform people and help them as much as I can.

7) The V6 won't get any better. Just talk to my buddy at another dealership and he has a es330 with a sluge problem.

8) Is this toyota fault? People don't change their oil every 5k doesn't deserve to drive a lexus.

9) I will have an appointment with a lexus engineer nextweek And I will bring this up.

10) Just wondering, What do you know about this V6 engine?

11) I WILL END MY POST HERE.

JPI

[mburnickas]

I do not think this tread should be closed. You have no basis and you are taking this way to heart too much. I just brought up, along with other valid points . This is one reason why I dislike dealers. They think because they do this for a living, they are 100% correct. I know engineers that have designed flying stuff for over 35 years; however, it does not mean that are always right 100% of the time. they need to listen sometimes instead of talking.

To add some needed info here: (to your post). Again this is just talking man, take it down a few levels.

Here are points I need to make:

1) Would lexus put something like this on the service manual "If you don't change your oil every 5k, Your engine will develop sludge". Umm, Lexus still says follow the manual per the letter, this in a PDF form, I have to post that the 3to5K is not needed

2) I think i;m qualify for this job. If you didn't know by now. I'm a Lexus master tech, ASE master. That is great, but does that help me down the road, nope. Only Lexus can help me then.

3) What is your point? Of what? You say you see 2 engines per week. Again sounds too high for me. I can call 4 dealers and see what they have done.

4) If you need to start another discussion on how long you should change the oil, Please start another post. This is not an oil debate. I am just saying the info is not in-line with Lexus (the manufacture of the car)

5) Moderators. Please lock this post because I don't think it's getting anywhere. ok..no clue why but…..

6) I don't have time to sit on here and argue. I'm here to inform people and help them as much as I can. Again, if you re-read all my posts I am NOT arguing here. Just valid points that I would assume you could answer. I agree 100% on the inform. When someone posts here different info then what some else says, do not close the thread, let them post. This goes back to my first paragraph.

7) The V6 won't get any better. Just talk to my buddy at another dealership and he has a es330 with a sluge problem. Maybe correct, but I would email Lexus to get something in writing to cover his behind, seems only logical as a consumer. Never mind to I do not take info on the phone. Show me proof or docs.

8) Is this toyota fault? People don't change their oil every 5k doesn't deserve to drive a lexus. I would say, yes it is Lexus fault since there is many websites that state how this problem grass rooted here. The oil just adds fuel to the fire. Also this goes back to my original post on oil changes and per Lexus letters. The 5K is not needed globally; again per Lexus letters or manual.

9) I will have an appointment with a lexus engineer nextweek And I will bring this up. great, please do and take some minutes so you can post the info. I would love to see this I will also email lexus just for some FYI here.

10) Just wondering, What do you know about this V6 engine? Is it an engine right??? :D :D :D It does not matter. Again I go by what Lexus tells me. I know enough to know what to do, what to work on, etc. After working on diesels and mortocyles with turbos etc, a v6 gasser is easy. Not saying anyone can do it, just an engine is an engine. on cars, airplanes, etc.

To close this goes back to my first paragraph. Just because you are an independent dealer please to not force your beliefs on me. All Lexus owners are not morons. I have had my cars, bikes, trucks, etc worked on by ASE people and let me say this. There are some really good one and some really bad ones so the ASE cert is WAY overrated.

**Again Lexus will cover the engine in the time given for us Es owners, not JPI. I would be smart to listen to Lexus, the manufacture of the car.

[paul93eslex]

I for one would really like to hear what that lexus engineer has to say about this issue. And toyota discontinued the 2.2 for this type of stuff? I'm not sure if its the same exact engine, but my old 91' MR2 (non-turbo 2.2 I-4) was very reliabe and sludge free, it was great. I put like 40,000 miles on that car (from 90,000-130,000) without a single problem. I always did think it was a slightly raspy sounding 4 banger though..

[mburnickas]

paul93eslex ---I agree 100% on that.

We all brought up vaild points here. And I for one would love to know what Lexus sends out info on this and then dealers do others things. These seems to be a disconnect here between Lexus Corp and dealers.

[lxs300]

I think there were only a select few of cars (in the thousands) that this happened to. I want to say only like 3000 but I could be wrong. Also “the Lexus free engine” program  :D  is only good for 8 years or 1,000,000 miles (kidding-unlimited miles).

I don't understand lexus saying this. Well maintained engine is engine no matter howmany miles on it and how old it is. If sludge happens anytime, Lexus should be taking care., Anyway even for 8 years they are not offering free engine without documentation of relevant oil changes and proof that the car has not been neglected from basic maintenance. Why this is valid for only 8 years and 100K miles??? Not a clue.

[Lexusfreak]

I look forward to hearing from the engineers as well & this is a pretty good thread with good points brought up by many. :) All I can say in closing is my 01' ES has about 45,000 miles on her, not burning any oil, she get's fantastic gas milage (dealer did a complete tune up when I took delivery back at the end of January), no unusual smoke coming out the exhaust, extremely happy with the power, performance & she purrs like a kitten! :D I checked with Lexus head office and no outstanding recalls or TSB's on my VIN & I have e-mailed my dealer to varify the TSB concern for varification. I'm pretty confident that everything is fine with my 3.0L V6. Hopfully JPI can share what he knows after he speaks with an engineer or perhaps someone from this club should contact Lexus head office in the U.S. and get them to issue a statement outlining everything in writing for us owners perhaps clearing up this matter once & for all? :whistles:

Final thing, the "average" milage one puts on a vehicle is between 12k - 15k miles per year, JPI suggests ( & as in at least my owners manual) to change your oil after a MAX of 5k miles....I'm not a math major here but a MAX of 3 oil changes a year I feel is very reasonable in my eyes & is not a waste of money.......as oil (especially conventional oil) not only breaks down & get's contaminated with milage, but with time as well (a max of 6 months in between intervals again according to my owners manual). Seems more than reasonable to me. B) JPI is right on the point "if people don't change their oil evey 5k, they don't deserve to drive a Lexus". One spends the kind of money for a car like that & they can't spend an extra $20 - $30 for oil changes? That makes no sense at all. :chairshot:

Good thread everyone! :)

[mburnickas]

lxs300---

I agree but Lexus/Toyota only covers it for 8 years from what I read. After 8 years you are out of luck. I would rather have it blow in that time frame then 9 years down the road.

This “program” is again only good for a certain time frame. No clue, but looking at it from there standpoint, I would not want to replace and enough 12 years down the road. They do need closure on it. Plus they have to draw the line somewhere. It does suck but at least we get 8-years (for what it is worth)

[mburnickas]

Lexus freak—

After doing more homework online. The gelling/sludge is only up to 2001 but again I could be wrong and Lexus has zero info on these newer models pertaining to this issue. Well, there maybe be a very select few, sure but not like the older ones; not yet.

My manual states and as noted online, “Toyota and Lexus owners manuals stipulate oil changes every 7,500 miles or six months, whichever comes first, under normal driving conditions, and 5,000 miles or four months under severe driving conditions.”

To close, I am making a simple website to help with this.

http://home.comcast.net/~94gsxr1100/lexus/oil/oil_sludge.htm

Also again the short drains “might” do something but I do not see this proven anywhere.

[Lexusfreak]

Thanks mb, our owners manuals differ slightly with the milage aspect of things (the 6 month interval is the same however with a MAX of 5k miles but nothing mentioned for 4 months). As I mentioned they (Toyota / Lexus Canada) considers all service conditions "severe" as I mentioned but it's noted what you also said that it varies from different regions around the globe. :) I haven't seen anything either that proves a "short drains" do anything harmful.

Thanks for the website, I read that Toyota / Lexus modified the 3.0L V6 made after July 2001 (according to the factory sticker on the door, mine was built in September of 2000). Getting a little nervous here....lol